This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
Is any info on the following link notable: [1]-- Ashadeofgrey ( Talk) 19:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I personally believe that the Thriller era deserves to be expanded. It was the climax of Jackson's career. Surely it deserves as much attention as the 'scandalicous' issues pertaining to Jackson. I think that simply talking about HOW he revolutionized the music industry would be good, such as the moonwalk, video clips etc. Correct me if i'm wrong, but there has been apprehension to do this because some people think that there should be more about the scandals? I hope i'm not stepping into already battled grounds, but I really think that the Thriller section should be expanded. Trust me, it is from a neutral point of view that I make this suggestion, not out of any bias opinions. It only to balance the article, expanding 'thriller' would be a good initiative. -- Paaerduag 12:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
All of Jackson's success in the 80s was due to his producer Quincy Jones. citation needed As soon as he got rid of him, his career declined massively citation needed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.93.21.66 ( talk • contribs) .
I agree! I think Quincy Jones could have produced ANYONE and made them a star. 76.17.39.210 13:16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
As regards the above, see also biographies of living persons:
Tyrenius 14:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello, just a request that the statement: "The People v. Jackson criminal case began in Santa Maria, California during the spring of 2005." be changed to state the specific month. I'm guessing this is referring to spring in California, but as I'm not from there it means very little to me (and probably many others). Thank you!
The introduction to the article claims the "Thriller" album sold 51 million copies. This is wrong. The actual figure is 47 million citation needed.
The Guiness Book of World Records site lists Thriller at selling 51 million copies. You can see for yourself here. One could argue that this number may be to low, but certainly not too high. :: ehmjay 22:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
. Kojack 10:17, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Im not hating, just dissagreeing with you and the other people who thinks MJ still sells like a shit hot act (typical MJ fans, they put everyone who says something they don't like and threatens to burst their bubble in the "haters" catagory). I know how many records he claims to have sold since 2000. I also know a more realistic figure. These sales may be number that would be considerd "selling well" for someone like Leif Garrett, but Jackson is selling nothing at all like he was at his height, and nothing at all like his fansites claim. 74.65.39.59 14:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Just to butt in here. The article states 51m and this is referenced with a verifiable source. See WP:VERIFY for how this works. It doesn't mean it has sold 51m. It means a verifiable source has said that it sold 51m. Subtle difference. If another verifiable source is found that states a different figure, then it may be that the article has to include the fact that there are discrepancies. Tyrenius 15:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
According to Raymone Bain official statement [2], Michael Jackson will be receiving the Diamond Award from World Music Award (15th of November, London) for having sold over 100 million albums but up to 750 million units.
Take a close look at the definition of 'comeback.' It can mean 'a return to popularity,' or a 'return by a celebrity to some previously successful activity.' Also do a Google search for "comeback failed" and you'll see that a comeback can either fail or be successful. Dionyseus 20:38, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Read Gary Carey's "The Only Contender" (1976). Brando could have sued the author if any of the quotations attributed to him were wrong.
http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/celebrity/26752004.htm
The 2005 trial for sexually abusing Gavin Avrizo. I said Brando's fans, I was never a fan of The Great Mumbler.
Sucking "Dean"'s cock? Which Dean? There's millions out there.-- I'll bring the food 12:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Is that why Presley was screwing Priscilla from the time she was 14? Anyway, his "comeback" was in 1968.
The Rolling Stones are still the top-earning live band in the world today, they are not as successful in record sales but there is no doubt they are as popular as ever. As for Jacko, as much as I like him as a musician, I would not like to see him tour. Personally, I would like to remember him for what he was in the 80s, a lot has happened since then and his image is not the same anymore and personally i dont like what he has become and I am against some of the things he has done and the way he chooses to lead his life. He also looked very ill when he went to court and I worry in his phsyical state if he could cope with a huge tour. The chances of a comeback on the scale of early 80s are practically impossible due to how popular he was then. Littlepaulscholes 23:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
The drunk driving campaign isn't mentioned in the article but probably did happen. It needs padding out. Is there an official US site on it?-- I'll bring the food 03:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
The ceremony actually took place in 1984 and it was only a photo opportunity for the President in his re-election year.
The source is wrong. The ceremony was in May 1984, so Jackson was nearly 26 at the time (and very black). He also mentioned President Reagan in his address to the Oxford Union in 2001.
It was May 1984. Get used to it.
I figgured we should discuss this before I made a change, but I noticed someone removed Jackson from the "Cultural Icons of" 1970-1990 citing it as POV. I think it is safe to say that Jackson is a cultural icon from those decades - particularily the 80s. I think that if one would argue these then he should at least be in the 80s icon group. Either way, couldn't one argue that anything in those categories TECHNICALLY is POV so that the groups don't belong period, and since they do exist then you might as well classify people (I know that may not make sence but in my heda it does lol). Just wondering what others think. And please - discuss not make comments. :: ehmjay 05:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Icon of the 90s? That's stretching it...
Jackson was only an icon in the 1980s, after the early 90s his music became of secondary importance to his controversial personal life. citation needed
Please state whether or not you would like either both nicknames ("The King of Pop" and "Wacko Jacko") or just "The King of Pop" to be present in the lead section.
Please stop. This was last discussed only four weeks ago. There is no consensus to insert either of those terms into the lead. We can't go through this every four weeks. It's ridiculous. Sarah Ewart ( Talk) 22:10, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the section heading "Visionary and Tokyo: 2006–Present" needs to be changed. Any thoughts?-- Ashadeofgrey ( Talk) 00:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Controversies section - no. It'll spoil the class timeline we've all spent so much time refining. BTW if it was you who put in all the proper citation text required for the footnotes i am EXTREMELY impressed. Leave the V&T bit until you think of something appropriate, but it does need updating.-- I'll bring the food 21:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the new image is necessary. Though it is recent it doesn't (a) have any importance (b) show MJ's face. These two factors make it a pointless picture.-- Ashadeofgrey 11:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Stop putting personal or irrevelant pictures. Those pictures of Jimmy Safechuck and that one of Dempsey ought not to be here.
Lots of little things -
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People on this page have claimed that the legitimacy of Jackson's children has been tested. What was the outcome of that test? last month, people said it would happen before september! what was the result? shouldn't the result be incorporated into the article. if the test has not yet happened, when is it going to happen? shouldn't that be in the article? -- Paaerduag 07:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Apparently there was a DNA test. This is from Fox News:
"Jackson and Rowe have two children, Prince and Paris, while Jackson’s third child, a boy nicknamed Blanket, was acquired by Jackson when he used an anonymous surrogate. According to my sources, between the now defunct couple, Rowe is the only biological parent of Prince and Paris. This is how Michael Abrams, Jackson’s lawyer, described the situation in a letter on July 5, 2005, to Rowe's then-attorney Iris Finsilver: “As you know, one of our clients [Jackson] is the custodial parent of two children born by one your clients [Rowe].” He did not refer to Jackson as the children’s father. Four years earlier, Rowe characterized the reason she had the children in her testimony. “I did it for him to become a father.” A settlement now would be much different than the one that was drafted in July 2005. Rowe would likely get all the money Jackson has put in escrow since October 2003, when he cut her off from her alimony, and she will probably get a bonus as well. But the main thing Rowe gains here is the ability to see her children on a regular basis. The settlement comes at an opportune time in Jackson’s strange life for Rowe. Until May, he claimed the non-Hague country of Bahrain as his residence. Now that he is domiciled in Ireland, the settlement will actually be enforceable." ( 195.93.21.66 15:45, 28 September 2006 (UTC))
Please note that when citing the same source twice please follow these instructions (i have noticed that "the times" is cited 3 times in a row towards the end and that the official jackson site is used as a source 10 million times for the same page.-- I'll bring the food 21:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
<snip copy and paste> For instructions on citing a footnote more than once, please see WP:FOOT. Sarah Ewart ( Talk) 18:27, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
One should be particularly careful when deleting the first of multiple named references, because the footnote text will be deleted unless it is copied to the second (now first) ref tag.
This information is taken from WP:FOOT-- I'll bring the food 21:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
If the text below belongs anywhere, it doesn't belong where I found it (the section dealing with Jackson's trial). I removed it and placed it here, maybe there is a place for it elsewhere (but to be honest it sounds a little silly to me).-- Pathlessdesert 18:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
In addition to Jackson's personal troubles, he has also dealt with problems of others posing as him. Jackson has a wide range of performance and personal impersonators—ranging from worldly successful body doubles to performers. In the United States alone, the likes of E'Casanova and Edward Moss have played Jackson in films Back to the Future 2 and Scary Movie 3, respectively. Moss also covered the role of Jackson in the E! network's courtroom reenactments. Other impersonators like to keep Jackson's image clean, and impersonator Joby Rogers has turned down roles that defame Michael Jackson's image. The Connecticut impersonator (who is signed as the Michael Jackson) has said to have turned down roles playing Jackson in handcuffs or in other negative situations. According to his website, Rogers continues to portray a late-1980s Michael Jackson in a stage play, Ken Davenport's The Awesome 80's Prom, in New York, Chicago, Minneapolis and formerly, Baltimore (local impersonator Matt Macis played Jackson there).
The following statement is taken from this site, which is the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee page for Michael Jackson:
"As a solo performer, he has enjoyed a level of superstardom previously known only to Elvis Presley, the Beatles and Frank Sinatra."
The statement nicely highlights the musical importance of Michael Jackson, and I believe it should be included in the opening paragraph of the lead (after the first sentence). Please let me know your thoughts. Thank you very much. UberCryxic 23:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
It is opinion, and like all opinions it is necessarily subjective, so no need for tautology. However, you also have an opinion regarding this matter, and I do not see why your opinion should hold more weight than that of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. UberCryxic 23:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
(most of this comes from Funky's talkpage) According to WP:V:
One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they must refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by reputable publishers.
In fact, I am well within my bounds to include the opinion of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
And also from the same place: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is thus verifiability, not truth. UberCryxic 00:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Hence, it does not matter that some here do not think that it is true or a fact. A reputable source gives it forward as an assertion, theory, or opinion (call it whatever you want), and as such I am well within Wikipedia regulations to include this material. Sarah and I were talking about placing it somewhere else besides the lead, something which I agree with. Any suggestions as to where? UberCryxic 00:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Then per my suggestion in your talkpage, perhaps prefacing the comment with "According to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame" would make it more appropriate and NPOV. UberCryxic 00:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
The addition will not be okay unless it's something in the form of:
Jackson's success lead to the Rock and Roll hall of fame asserting that "As a solo performer, he has enjoyed a level of superstardom previously known only to Elvis Presley, the Beatles and Frank Sinatra."
Personally i think it doesn't work as well with all the text but you'll need it to keep it in context.-- I'll bring the food 02:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
All-right let's just do a quick vote here. If you support the inclusion of that statement in the article, write two things: either Support for Lead or Support for Body. The first means you agree to put it in the lead somewhere, while the second you agree to put it in the non-lead part of the article somewhere. Finally, Object if you do not want that statement to be placed anywhere within this article. Ok....
If you try to put it in the lead, you can expect "Wacko Jacko" to be going back in 5 minutes later. Neither should be in the lead. Sarah Ewart ( Talk) 16:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Well that does disappoint me. Anyway, as I understand it, the previous agreement was that no nicknames would be allowed. That means no things like "King of Pop" or "Wacko Jacko." This is none of that, and as such it is more than appropriate for inclusion. UberCryxic 20:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
"It's not neutral enough for a lead."
If it is prefaced with "According to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame," then it satisfies NPOV. I thought we clarified this in our private discussions. What's with the change of mind (or heart) now? UberCryxic 20:06, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I object for the same reason as funky monkey. It's simply not NPOV.-- Crestville 23:42, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Also Sarah, as I alluded to earlier, the lead and the article in general does a poor job of highlighting the importance of Michael Jackson from a musical perspective. In the lead of The Beatles article, you have statements like...
The Beatles were one of the best-selling popular musical acts of the 20th century.
The Beatles were an English music group from Liverpool who continue to be held in high esteem for their artistic achievements, their huge commercial success, their groundbreaking role in the history of popular music, and their contributions to popular culture.
For the lead in Elvis,
In a musical career of over two decades, Presley set records for concert attendance, television ratings, and record sales, and became one of the biggest selling artists in music history.[1]
The young Presley became an icon of modern American pop culture,
No equivalent statements exist for the MJ lead. The lead here does a very good job of highlighting his accomplishments (that is, listing off what he did), but it does a poor job at telling someone why Michael Jackson is important. Ok....he had the greatest selling album of all time; why is that important? Some of that has to be conveyed in the lead. I consider it POV pushing on your part to exclude the label "King of Pop," which is universally known and recognized, but I complied regardless. As long as it comes from a reputable source, there is no reason with highlighting the musical importance of Michael Jackson. UberCryxic 00:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
They are being compared musically. There's a difference between that and your implication. How is it contentious to say that his fame is equivalent to that of Elvis Presley or The Beatles? I believe there was a study done a few years ago that found Michael Jackson was the most recognizable human on the planet. UberCryxic 05:28, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Either way, the basic fact that he is just as famous as Elvis or The Beatles is the closest one can reasonably come to undeniable. UberCryxic 05:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I make most of my edits as minor manually, simply because often I don't feel like explaining the change (after all, most editors simply check the different versions of the history anyway, so it's irrelevant). UberCryxic 19:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
So far in this vote, we are divided between two people who want the statement in the lead, one person who wants it in the body, one person who, in principle, would not mind the statement in the body, and one person categorically rejecting. Should we give this more time or should I go ahead and put the statement somewhere in the body now? If the latter, any suggestions as to where?
Regarding the minor edits, you make a good point about the watchlists. That's really the only good reason for clarifications.
However, this, "Minor edit means you're making trivial changes. To knowingly mark content changes as trivial is extraordinarily dishonest.." is irrelevant because a responsible Wikipedia editor would check any and all changes, regardless if they were trivial or not. Think about it: even if a change has a description, editors normally check the history anyway. If I don't want to take the time, or more importantly if I don't have the time, to write a description for my change, then I won't. Check the history. UberCryxic 03:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
My point is that marking an edit as "minor" is not a sign of dishonesty or treachery. I just don't want to take the time of telling people about an edit that they can easily identify themselves, unless it's something really major. In those cases, I do write descriptions (check my history I have plenty of descriptive comments for edits) UberCryxic 03:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
The statement has been inserted under the Bad section. UberCryxic 21:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm the author of the pictures. Initially, they were (wrongly) attributed to jmorelo, which is my nickname in Flickr. I changed that and, since I'm also a wikipedist, I put a link to my wikipage. Then they were both removed. I'm OK with removing whatever link (I just thought that was informative), but since the pictures (see here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/atalaya/169436395/ ) have a cc-by license, you do have to attribute them. Be it to jmerelo (my Flickr nick) to Jjmerelo (my wikipedia nick) or to JJ Merelo (my real name), they have to be attributed. Besides, I have seen in the stream of changes that somebody has already done so, but his changes have been reverted. So instead of doing it myself, I prefer to leave the position clear, before we start a change-and-revert war. JJMerelo 15:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
The link to the sentence in the introduction says 60 million. I'm tired of all this changing, it started at 50 million and in the last few months its doubled, its ridiculous! The sentence should be changed back to 50 million, or at least the 60 million that are certainly more realistic! Alaka 18:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
io:Michael Jackson oc:Michael Jackson . Thank you 201.0.66.19 20:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
So I just read this article on the BBC which discusses that Jackson's performance was cut short due to time restraints and the like. I think this should be added to the article...however I'm not the best at adding this sort of stuff (especially when it comes to citations). Anyone want to add some more info? :: ehmjay 13:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
Is any info on the following link notable: [1]-- Ashadeofgrey ( Talk) 19:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I personally believe that the Thriller era deserves to be expanded. It was the climax of Jackson's career. Surely it deserves as much attention as the 'scandalicous' issues pertaining to Jackson. I think that simply talking about HOW he revolutionized the music industry would be good, such as the moonwalk, video clips etc. Correct me if i'm wrong, but there has been apprehension to do this because some people think that there should be more about the scandals? I hope i'm not stepping into already battled grounds, but I really think that the Thriller section should be expanded. Trust me, it is from a neutral point of view that I make this suggestion, not out of any bias opinions. It only to balance the article, expanding 'thriller' would be a good initiative. -- Paaerduag 12:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
All of Jackson's success in the 80s was due to his producer Quincy Jones. citation needed As soon as he got rid of him, his career declined massively citation needed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.93.21.66 ( talk • contribs) .
I agree! I think Quincy Jones could have produced ANYONE and made them a star. 76.17.39.210 13:16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
As regards the above, see also biographies of living persons:
Tyrenius 14:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello, just a request that the statement: "The People v. Jackson criminal case began in Santa Maria, California during the spring of 2005." be changed to state the specific month. I'm guessing this is referring to spring in California, but as I'm not from there it means very little to me (and probably many others). Thank you!
The introduction to the article claims the "Thriller" album sold 51 million copies. This is wrong. The actual figure is 47 million citation needed.
The Guiness Book of World Records site lists Thriller at selling 51 million copies. You can see for yourself here. One could argue that this number may be to low, but certainly not too high. :: ehmjay 22:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
. Kojack 10:17, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Im not hating, just dissagreeing with you and the other people who thinks MJ still sells like a shit hot act (typical MJ fans, they put everyone who says something they don't like and threatens to burst their bubble in the "haters" catagory). I know how many records he claims to have sold since 2000. I also know a more realistic figure. These sales may be number that would be considerd "selling well" for someone like Leif Garrett, but Jackson is selling nothing at all like he was at his height, and nothing at all like his fansites claim. 74.65.39.59 14:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Just to butt in here. The article states 51m and this is referenced with a verifiable source. See WP:VERIFY for how this works. It doesn't mean it has sold 51m. It means a verifiable source has said that it sold 51m. Subtle difference. If another verifiable source is found that states a different figure, then it may be that the article has to include the fact that there are discrepancies. Tyrenius 15:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
According to Raymone Bain official statement [2], Michael Jackson will be receiving the Diamond Award from World Music Award (15th of November, London) for having sold over 100 million albums but up to 750 million units.
Take a close look at the definition of 'comeback.' It can mean 'a return to popularity,' or a 'return by a celebrity to some previously successful activity.' Also do a Google search for "comeback failed" and you'll see that a comeback can either fail or be successful. Dionyseus 20:38, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Read Gary Carey's "The Only Contender" (1976). Brando could have sued the author if any of the quotations attributed to him were wrong.
http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/celebrity/26752004.htm
The 2005 trial for sexually abusing Gavin Avrizo. I said Brando's fans, I was never a fan of The Great Mumbler.
Sucking "Dean"'s cock? Which Dean? There's millions out there.-- I'll bring the food 12:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Is that why Presley was screwing Priscilla from the time she was 14? Anyway, his "comeback" was in 1968.
The Rolling Stones are still the top-earning live band in the world today, they are not as successful in record sales but there is no doubt they are as popular as ever. As for Jacko, as much as I like him as a musician, I would not like to see him tour. Personally, I would like to remember him for what he was in the 80s, a lot has happened since then and his image is not the same anymore and personally i dont like what he has become and I am against some of the things he has done and the way he chooses to lead his life. He also looked very ill when he went to court and I worry in his phsyical state if he could cope with a huge tour. The chances of a comeback on the scale of early 80s are practically impossible due to how popular he was then. Littlepaulscholes 23:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
The drunk driving campaign isn't mentioned in the article but probably did happen. It needs padding out. Is there an official US site on it?-- I'll bring the food 03:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
The ceremony actually took place in 1984 and it was only a photo opportunity for the President in his re-election year.
The source is wrong. The ceremony was in May 1984, so Jackson was nearly 26 at the time (and very black). He also mentioned President Reagan in his address to the Oxford Union in 2001.
It was May 1984. Get used to it.
I figgured we should discuss this before I made a change, but I noticed someone removed Jackson from the "Cultural Icons of" 1970-1990 citing it as POV. I think it is safe to say that Jackson is a cultural icon from those decades - particularily the 80s. I think that if one would argue these then he should at least be in the 80s icon group. Either way, couldn't one argue that anything in those categories TECHNICALLY is POV so that the groups don't belong period, and since they do exist then you might as well classify people (I know that may not make sence but in my heda it does lol). Just wondering what others think. And please - discuss not make comments. :: ehmjay 05:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Icon of the 90s? That's stretching it...
Jackson was only an icon in the 1980s, after the early 90s his music became of secondary importance to his controversial personal life. citation needed
Please state whether or not you would like either both nicknames ("The King of Pop" and "Wacko Jacko") or just "The King of Pop" to be present in the lead section.
Please stop. This was last discussed only four weeks ago. There is no consensus to insert either of those terms into the lead. We can't go through this every four weeks. It's ridiculous. Sarah Ewart ( Talk) 22:10, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the section heading "Visionary and Tokyo: 2006–Present" needs to be changed. Any thoughts?-- Ashadeofgrey ( Talk) 00:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Controversies section - no. It'll spoil the class timeline we've all spent so much time refining. BTW if it was you who put in all the proper citation text required for the footnotes i am EXTREMELY impressed. Leave the V&T bit until you think of something appropriate, but it does need updating.-- I'll bring the food 21:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the new image is necessary. Though it is recent it doesn't (a) have any importance (b) show MJ's face. These two factors make it a pointless picture.-- Ashadeofgrey 11:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Stop putting personal or irrevelant pictures. Those pictures of Jimmy Safechuck and that one of Dempsey ought not to be here.
Lots of little things -
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People on this page have claimed that the legitimacy of Jackson's children has been tested. What was the outcome of that test? last month, people said it would happen before september! what was the result? shouldn't the result be incorporated into the article. if the test has not yet happened, when is it going to happen? shouldn't that be in the article? -- Paaerduag 07:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Apparently there was a DNA test. This is from Fox News:
"Jackson and Rowe have two children, Prince and Paris, while Jackson’s third child, a boy nicknamed Blanket, was acquired by Jackson when he used an anonymous surrogate. According to my sources, between the now defunct couple, Rowe is the only biological parent of Prince and Paris. This is how Michael Abrams, Jackson’s lawyer, described the situation in a letter on July 5, 2005, to Rowe's then-attorney Iris Finsilver: “As you know, one of our clients [Jackson] is the custodial parent of two children born by one your clients [Rowe].” He did not refer to Jackson as the children’s father. Four years earlier, Rowe characterized the reason she had the children in her testimony. “I did it for him to become a father.” A settlement now would be much different than the one that was drafted in July 2005. Rowe would likely get all the money Jackson has put in escrow since October 2003, when he cut her off from her alimony, and she will probably get a bonus as well. But the main thing Rowe gains here is the ability to see her children on a regular basis. The settlement comes at an opportune time in Jackson’s strange life for Rowe. Until May, he claimed the non-Hague country of Bahrain as his residence. Now that he is domiciled in Ireland, the settlement will actually be enforceable." ( 195.93.21.66 15:45, 28 September 2006 (UTC))
Please note that when citing the same source twice please follow these instructions (i have noticed that "the times" is cited 3 times in a row towards the end and that the official jackson site is used as a source 10 million times for the same page.-- I'll bring the food 21:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
<snip copy and paste> For instructions on citing a footnote more than once, please see WP:FOOT. Sarah Ewart ( Talk) 18:27, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
One should be particularly careful when deleting the first of multiple named references, because the footnote text will be deleted unless it is copied to the second (now first) ref tag.
This information is taken from WP:FOOT-- I'll bring the food 21:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
If the text below belongs anywhere, it doesn't belong where I found it (the section dealing with Jackson's trial). I removed it and placed it here, maybe there is a place for it elsewhere (but to be honest it sounds a little silly to me).-- Pathlessdesert 18:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
In addition to Jackson's personal troubles, he has also dealt with problems of others posing as him. Jackson has a wide range of performance and personal impersonators—ranging from worldly successful body doubles to performers. In the United States alone, the likes of E'Casanova and Edward Moss have played Jackson in films Back to the Future 2 and Scary Movie 3, respectively. Moss also covered the role of Jackson in the E! network's courtroom reenactments. Other impersonators like to keep Jackson's image clean, and impersonator Joby Rogers has turned down roles that defame Michael Jackson's image. The Connecticut impersonator (who is signed as the Michael Jackson) has said to have turned down roles playing Jackson in handcuffs or in other negative situations. According to his website, Rogers continues to portray a late-1980s Michael Jackson in a stage play, Ken Davenport's The Awesome 80's Prom, in New York, Chicago, Minneapolis and formerly, Baltimore (local impersonator Matt Macis played Jackson there).
The following statement is taken from this site, which is the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee page for Michael Jackson:
"As a solo performer, he has enjoyed a level of superstardom previously known only to Elvis Presley, the Beatles and Frank Sinatra."
The statement nicely highlights the musical importance of Michael Jackson, and I believe it should be included in the opening paragraph of the lead (after the first sentence). Please let me know your thoughts. Thank you very much. UberCryxic 23:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
It is opinion, and like all opinions it is necessarily subjective, so no need for tautology. However, you also have an opinion regarding this matter, and I do not see why your opinion should hold more weight than that of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. UberCryxic 23:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
(most of this comes from Funky's talkpage) According to WP:V:
One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they must refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by reputable publishers.
In fact, I am well within my bounds to include the opinion of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
And also from the same place: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is thus verifiability, not truth. UberCryxic 00:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Hence, it does not matter that some here do not think that it is true or a fact. A reputable source gives it forward as an assertion, theory, or opinion (call it whatever you want), and as such I am well within Wikipedia regulations to include this material. Sarah and I were talking about placing it somewhere else besides the lead, something which I agree with. Any suggestions as to where? UberCryxic 00:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Then per my suggestion in your talkpage, perhaps prefacing the comment with "According to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame" would make it more appropriate and NPOV. UberCryxic 00:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
The addition will not be okay unless it's something in the form of:
Jackson's success lead to the Rock and Roll hall of fame asserting that "As a solo performer, he has enjoyed a level of superstardom previously known only to Elvis Presley, the Beatles and Frank Sinatra."
Personally i think it doesn't work as well with all the text but you'll need it to keep it in context.-- I'll bring the food 02:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
All-right let's just do a quick vote here. If you support the inclusion of that statement in the article, write two things: either Support for Lead or Support for Body. The first means you agree to put it in the lead somewhere, while the second you agree to put it in the non-lead part of the article somewhere. Finally, Object if you do not want that statement to be placed anywhere within this article. Ok....
If you try to put it in the lead, you can expect "Wacko Jacko" to be going back in 5 minutes later. Neither should be in the lead. Sarah Ewart ( Talk) 16:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Well that does disappoint me. Anyway, as I understand it, the previous agreement was that no nicknames would be allowed. That means no things like "King of Pop" or "Wacko Jacko." This is none of that, and as such it is more than appropriate for inclusion. UberCryxic 20:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
"It's not neutral enough for a lead."
If it is prefaced with "According to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame," then it satisfies NPOV. I thought we clarified this in our private discussions. What's with the change of mind (or heart) now? UberCryxic 20:06, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I object for the same reason as funky monkey. It's simply not NPOV.-- Crestville 23:42, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Also Sarah, as I alluded to earlier, the lead and the article in general does a poor job of highlighting the importance of Michael Jackson from a musical perspective. In the lead of The Beatles article, you have statements like...
The Beatles were one of the best-selling popular musical acts of the 20th century.
The Beatles were an English music group from Liverpool who continue to be held in high esteem for their artistic achievements, their huge commercial success, their groundbreaking role in the history of popular music, and their contributions to popular culture.
For the lead in Elvis,
In a musical career of over two decades, Presley set records for concert attendance, television ratings, and record sales, and became one of the biggest selling artists in music history.[1]
The young Presley became an icon of modern American pop culture,
No equivalent statements exist for the MJ lead. The lead here does a very good job of highlighting his accomplishments (that is, listing off what he did), but it does a poor job at telling someone why Michael Jackson is important. Ok....he had the greatest selling album of all time; why is that important? Some of that has to be conveyed in the lead. I consider it POV pushing on your part to exclude the label "King of Pop," which is universally known and recognized, but I complied regardless. As long as it comes from a reputable source, there is no reason with highlighting the musical importance of Michael Jackson. UberCryxic 00:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
They are being compared musically. There's a difference between that and your implication. How is it contentious to say that his fame is equivalent to that of Elvis Presley or The Beatles? I believe there was a study done a few years ago that found Michael Jackson was the most recognizable human on the planet. UberCryxic 05:28, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Either way, the basic fact that he is just as famous as Elvis or The Beatles is the closest one can reasonably come to undeniable. UberCryxic 05:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I make most of my edits as minor manually, simply because often I don't feel like explaining the change (after all, most editors simply check the different versions of the history anyway, so it's irrelevant). UberCryxic 19:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
So far in this vote, we are divided between two people who want the statement in the lead, one person who wants it in the body, one person who, in principle, would not mind the statement in the body, and one person categorically rejecting. Should we give this more time or should I go ahead and put the statement somewhere in the body now? If the latter, any suggestions as to where?
Regarding the minor edits, you make a good point about the watchlists. That's really the only good reason for clarifications.
However, this, "Minor edit means you're making trivial changes. To knowingly mark content changes as trivial is extraordinarily dishonest.." is irrelevant because a responsible Wikipedia editor would check any and all changes, regardless if they were trivial or not. Think about it: even if a change has a description, editors normally check the history anyway. If I don't want to take the time, or more importantly if I don't have the time, to write a description for my change, then I won't. Check the history. UberCryxic 03:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
My point is that marking an edit as "minor" is not a sign of dishonesty or treachery. I just don't want to take the time of telling people about an edit that they can easily identify themselves, unless it's something really major. In those cases, I do write descriptions (check my history I have plenty of descriptive comments for edits) UberCryxic 03:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
The statement has been inserted under the Bad section. UberCryxic 21:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm the author of the pictures. Initially, they were (wrongly) attributed to jmorelo, which is my nickname in Flickr. I changed that and, since I'm also a wikipedist, I put a link to my wikipage. Then they were both removed. I'm OK with removing whatever link (I just thought that was informative), but since the pictures (see here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/atalaya/169436395/ ) have a cc-by license, you do have to attribute them. Be it to jmerelo (my Flickr nick) to Jjmerelo (my wikipedia nick) or to JJ Merelo (my real name), they have to be attributed. Besides, I have seen in the stream of changes that somebody has already done so, but his changes have been reverted. So instead of doing it myself, I prefer to leave the position clear, before we start a change-and-revert war. JJMerelo 15:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
The link to the sentence in the introduction says 60 million. I'm tired of all this changing, it started at 50 million and in the last few months its doubled, its ridiculous! The sentence should be changed back to 50 million, or at least the 60 million that are certainly more realistic! Alaka 18:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
io:Michael Jackson oc:Michael Jackson . Thank you 201.0.66.19 20:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
So I just read this article on the BBC which discusses that Jackson's performance was cut short due to time restraints and the like. I think this should be added to the article...however I'm not the best at adding this sort of stuff (especially when it comes to citations). Anyone want to add some more info? :: ehmjay 13:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)