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Hopefully, these changes elucidate.
Nrgdocadams 09:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)Nrgdocadams
What exactly is the etymology of "atonement". I have a problem with the "at-one-ment" link in the text, unless that is actually the etymological origin of the word (which I doubt).-- Srleffler 05:38, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Nrgdocadams falsely says I "asserted" that the Greek prefix meta- (I use Latin characters for Greek words in this comment) means "across". I didn't. It doesn't. In words like metousiosis (this is the correct spelling, not "metousisosius") it acts exactly like the Latin prefix trans-, indicating a change of something. The words metamorphosis and transformation (in Latin, "transformatio") both mean a change of form ("morphe" in Greek, "forma" in Latin). The Greek word metousiosis means a change of ousia, the Latin word transsubstantiatio means a change of substantia. Several Latin words have been used to translate the Greek word ousia. One is "substantia". Surely Nrgdocadams knows of the most famous instance: in the Nicene Creed, the key word homoousion ("of the same ousia") in the Greek text appears in the Latin text as consubstantialem ("sharing the same substantia"). So "metousiosis" and "transsubstantiatio" correspond exactly with each other as words, but their meaning, as I stated in the article, differs. Ngrdocadams has apparently wished to conceal this to him disagreeable fact. But perhaps he may now agree to revert his - whatever you wish to call it, censorship? vandalism? Lima 10:21, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I forgot to express my surprise that NgrDocAdams attributes miaphysitism to the Eastern Orthodox Church, that he thinks the transubstantiation explanation existed only in the past ("was a medieval Roman Catholic doctrine that, at one time, sought ...". He speaks of a change of "hypostasis", a word which he says is here equivalent to "ousia", essence, and says the "physis", nature, remains; I am puzzled therefore why, immediately afterwards, he objects to a reference to a mystical distinction between a nature and its essence and insists that it is instead a mystical distinction between a "substance" (a word whose meaning, for him, in this context he has not explained) and its essence. Lima 11:09, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I intended to make no more adjustments to the Metousiosis article than the rather superficial ones I made in what I thought would be a single once-for-all general revision. The reaction of NrgDocAdams is inspiring me to study the question more deeply - and to revise the article more deeply. It is now on my watchlist.
Would NrgDocAdams kindly indicate where any of the External Links he gives at the foot of the article mention metousiosis. I would like at least to learn where the second of them provides "an exposition on Eucharistic mysticism that connects metousiosis to the Eternal Sacrifice", since the word "metousiosis" does not appear in the site's index. I am convinced that the other three external links have absolutely no mention of metousiosis. I may have to remove them all, even the second, and replace them with links that do mention metousiosis.
I must surely also at some stage remove from the article the heterodox (for Christians who accept more than three ecumenical councils) notion ("miaphysitism") that Christ has one "physis" or nature, not two. But that will have to wait.
For the moment, I want just to concentrate on the word metousiosis itself. Its similarity with transsubstantiatio is striking for any student of Greek and Latin. In spite of that, I at first presumed that the author of this article knew what he was talking about when he gave the two words different meanings. But a brief check of Internet sites (omitting Wikipedia and its mirrors) has now shown clearly that the Greek word metousiosis was in fact coined as a translation of the Latin word transsubstantiatio. Unless NrgDocAdams can bring forward some contrary evidence, the historical fact of the original meaning of the word metousiosis will have to be inserted at the beginning of the article. Indeed, that original meaning may well still be current, as some of the following quotations seem also to show. (The added emphases are mine.)
Quotation 1. [1]
Pages 283-284 from Ware's book The Orthodox Church:
"As the words of the Epiclesis make abundantly plain, the Orthodox Church believes that after consecration the bread and wine become in very truth the Body and Blood of Christ; they are not mere symbols, but the reality. But while Orthodoxy has always insisted on the reality of the change, it has never attempted to explain the manner of the change: the Eucharistic Prayer in the Liturgy simply uses the neutral term metaballo, to 'turn around', 'change', or 'alter.' It is true that in the 17th century not only Orthodox writers but Orthodox councils such as that of Jerusalem in 1672 made use of the Latin term 'transubstantiation' (in Greek, metousiosis) together with the Scholastic distinction between substance and accidents. But at the same time, the Fathers of Jerusalem were careful to add that the use of these terms does not constitute an explanation of the manner of the change, since this is a mystery and must always remain incomprehensible."
Quotation 2. [2]
Orthodox theologian John Meyendorff writes in Byzantine Theology:
"....in the Eucharist, man participates in the glorified humanity of Christ, which is not the 'essence of God,' but a humanity still consubstantial to man and available to him as food and drink....for later Byzantine theologians, the Eucharist is Christ's transfigured, life-giving, but still human, body, en-hypostasized in the Logos and penetrated with divine 'energies.' Characteristically, one never finds the category of 'essence' (ousia) used by Byzantine theologians in a Eucharistic context. They would consider a term like 'transubstantiation' (metousiosis) improper to designate the Eucharistic mystery, and generally use the concept of metabole, found in the canon of John Chrysostom, or such dynamic terms as 'trans-elementation' (metastoicheiosis) or 're-ordination' (metarrhythmisis).
"Transubstantiation (metousiosis) appears only in the writings of the Latinophrones of the thirteenth century, and is nothing but a straight translation from the Latin. The first Orthodox author to use it is Gennadios Scholarios; but, in his case as well, direct Latin influence is obvious."
Quotation 3. [3]
GENNADIUS (c. 1453 AD) At the time of the Council of Florence (1439), a layman named George Scholarius (later known as Gennadius and appointed Patriarch of Constantinople in 1453) wrote a treatise "Homily on the Sacramental Body of our Lord Jesus Christ" and introduces language and phraseology that had become current in the West. He is the first individual to use the word "TRANSUBSTANTIATION" (Greek metousiosis) in reference to the Eucharist in the East (see Stone, page 172ff for the original Greek). The term had become standard in the West by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. Gennadius speaks of the change (Greek metabole) of the SUBSTANCE (Greek ousia) of the elements into the SUBSTANCE of the body and blood of Christ; of the "ACCIDENTS" (Greek sumbebekota) of the bread and wine remaining unchanged; of the body of Christ being with its appropriate ACCIDENTS, while the bread retains its ACCIDENTS without its own SUBSTANCE; and of the outward state of the elements being preserved in view of the repugnance which communicants might otherwise feel. He maintains that the body of Christ is not in the Sacrament naturally but after the manner of a Sacrament, and therefore is not in it as in a place, and is not under the dimensions of a real body but under the dimensions of the bread only. He says that each fragment is the whole body of Christ, and that the body of Christ in heaven and on every altar on earth is one and the same, being that body which was born of the Virgin, was once on the cross, and is now in heaven (the full text of the Sermon of Gennadius is found in Migne PG 160:351-374).
Quotation 4. [4]
Following the Western resolution of the dogma of the real presence in the Eucharist, Orthodox writers adopted the literal translation of "transubstantiation" into Greek (metousiosis).
Quotation 5. [5] An excerpt from one of these letters will be of present interest. 'I have had a curious correspondence with Father Popoff about Transubstantiation. ... I confess it seems to me nonsense to say, "We believe in metousiosis, but we say nothing of the mode, and we use the word in a sense of our own, distinct from the Latin meaning." And the Slavonic word presuchchestvlenie, is almost stronger, means - were there such a word - transapparentiation. Again, in another letter: 'If metousiosis be not transubstantiation, how is homoousios consubstantial?'
(end of the quotations)
I am in fact wondering how much, or rather how little, of NrgDocAdam's work on this article really fits the rule "Content must not violate any copyright and must be verifiable." Unfortunately, for the rest of this week I have little time to pursue my studies in this field.
Lima 19:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Is the whole article original research? Nrgdocadams created this article, and has been essentially the only editor. -- Srleffler 00:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I conclude from the above:
1. NgrDocAdams does not (and cannot) deny that the word metousiosis was coined as a translation of transsubstantiatio.
2. Leadbeater does not mention at all the word metousiosis and, to judge by the quotation given here, describes what happens in the Eucharist in a way fully in harmony with the doctrine of transubstantiation
3. NgrDocAdams finds no real contradiction between metousiosis and transubstantiation. He sees the ARCIC documents, which are in accord with the doctrine of transubstantiation - though, for historical reasons, the Anglican theologians involved wanted to avoid the word, they did not deny the doctrine, otherwise there would have been no agreement with the Catholic participants - as in perfect accord also with metousiosis.
4. Metousiosis, as described by NgrDocAdams, "certainly offends against the standard Orthodox positioning of Negative Theology" much more than transubstantiation does. Transubstantiation says only that the inner reality of the bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ and that the appearances remain. NgrDocAdams's metousiosis says not only that the "hypostasis" - a word explained as equivalent to "ousia", i.e. inner reality (cf. Liddell and Scott) - of the bread and the wine are changed into the "full reality" of the Risen Christ, but also that the "hypostases" of the partakers in the mystery are changed too, and moreover that they are commissioned to live-forth the mystery into the world. Quite a lot of positive theology. The faith of the Eastern Orthodox Church is that what was bread becomes a clearly different reality, the body of Christ, and NgrDocAdams's metousiosis posits a somewhat similar change in the partakers, involving their "hypostases" or inner reality too. Indeed quite a lot of positive theology to add to what transubstantiation involves.
Note 1. Transubstantiation is about what change occurs in the Eucharist, not about how the change is brought about. The Roman Catholic Church, like the Eastern Orthodox Church, teaches that the "how" of the change cannot be explained in human terms, but only as a miraculous and mysterious intervention of God.
Note 2. The Roman Catholic Church too teaches that the Eucharist produces effects in the participants and sends them out to affect their surroundings (see, for instance, Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1391-1397).
Note 3. The quoted expressions from the Byzantine liturgy contradict, of course, in absolutely no way the doctrine of transubstantiation. The Catechism of the Catholic Church also quotes the Byzantine liturgy.
Lima 18:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
NrgDocAdams claims that the ARCIC document on the Eucharist teaches metousiosis. The claims he has inserted in various articles about Anglican, Lutheran and other theologians adopting the concept of metousiosis rather than transubstantiation may be equally unfounded. It may be necessary to ask him to give evidence of these claims. Lima 20:50, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I have no idea who is right here, but I would like to point out that it ought to be possible to incorporate an explanation of the etymological relation of the greek word "metousiosis" to the latin word "transsubstantiatio", without implying that the two doctrines are the same.-- Srleffler 03:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, it does not seem possible, since the word met-ousi-osis was invented to render in Greek the idea of trans-substanti-atio, and was used in that sense for several centuries. Nowadays, however, some treat it as having a different sense, which they seem to find it hard to define. Lima 14:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
NrgDocAdams seems to have confused -phania (from the Greek root φαν, appear) with -phagia (from the Greek root φαγ, eat). I think nobody has coined a Latin word corresponding to the Greek word that appears in English as Theophany; in Latin you would have to say "Dei manifestatio", "Dei apparitio", as in English. Lima 14:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
1. Can NrgDocAdams quote any use of the term metousiosis earlier than 1079? Can he quote anything from Saint Basil compatible only with his notion of metousiosis and not with, for instance, the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
2. If the quotation he gave from Leadbeater is an exposition of metousiosis, so is, for instance, Pope John Paul II's encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia, which among other things says: "Through our communion in his body and blood, Christ also grants us his Spirit. Saint Ephrem writes: 'He called the bread his living body and he filled it with himself and his Spirit ... He who eats it with faith, eats Fire and Spirit ... Take and eat this, all of you, and eat with it the Holy Spirit. For it is truly my body and whoever eats it will have eternal life. The Church implores this divine Gift, the source of every other gift, in the Eucharistic epiclesis. In the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, for example, we find the prayer: 'We beseech, implore and beg you: send your Holy Spirit upon us all and upon these gifts ... that those who partake of them may be purified in soul, received the forgiveness of their sins, and share in the Holy Spirit.' And in the Roman Missal the celebrant prays: "grant that we who are nourished by his body and blood may be filled with his Holy Spirit, and become one body, one spirit in Christ.' Thus by the gift of his body and blood Christ increases within us the gift of his Spirit, already poured out in Baptism and bestowed as a 'seal' in the sacrament of Confirmation" (section 17).
3. NrgDocAdams uses the phrase "natural substance" of what can be seen and touched, what in the doctrine of transubstantiation is called the accidents or appearances and whose permanence as a reality is part of the doctrine; what NrgDocAdams calls "essence" seems to be exactly what in the doctrine of transubstantiation is called "substance". NrgDocAdams rightly rejects his interpretation of transubstantiation. I do too. I accept the doctrine of transubstantiation. He should too. By a "dogma" is usually meant a teaching defined by a Council. Would NrgDocAdams kindly quote "the primitive Church's dogma of metousiosis". I think he does not, at least now, say that transubstantiation claims to explain how the change is brought about (if he does, would he please indicate the source of his conviction), but that it indicates only the manner or mode of the presence of Christ. He probably agrees with the teaching of the Catholic Church, and of the Eastern Orthodox Church, that the manner or mode of Christ's presence is sacramental or mystical, and not, at least in the ordinary sense, physical or corporal. His difficulty may therefore again be due to a misunderstanding.
4. Would NrgDocAdams be kind enough to explain to one who is too ignorant to glean the meaning of the written word, but who imagines he knows the difference between "positive" and "negative", in what way an increase in the number of positive statements can be considered to be in greater accord with a "Negative Theology" (the traditional technical term is "apophatic theology"), of which this same ignorant person is judged to show a lack of reading.
I am not trying to make the article conform to anything other than the facts of history (what the word metousiosis originally meant, whatever it means now), and to freedom from falsehoods about Roman Catholic teaching (if transubstantiation can be explained without talking about metousiosis, why on earth cannot metousiosis be explained without presenting an incorrect idea, or even a correct idea, of transubstantiation?).
Lima 14:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like to see the exact sources for the quotations used in the article. I cannot confirm them against any reference I can find. Compare the quote from St. Cyril as given to the version found here [6] and it's evident that they are nearly word-for-word identical. They differ only by small details of punctuation, typography, source translation for the quotations from John 6:57 and 63 -- and the addition of the words "by way of a great metousiosis" in the Wiki article's version. I cannot locate a complete version of St. Basil's The Morals online, but the same passage is quoted here [7] which again is word-for-word identical -- again aside from source translation for the scripture quote, this time from 1 Cor 11:29 -- but for the addition of the words "this metousiosis" in the Wiki article.
Since, at least, the NPNF series is a standard, reliable reference and contradicts what we are given here -- indeed, it lacks the very word necessary to make it applicable -- I think it's not at all out of line to ask for specific sources here. Whose translations are these, and from what editions? TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:20, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
NgrDocAdams has said he will "report" me for vandalism. My response is: Please do. That may put an end to his presumably unverifiable insertions. TCC's comment makes it appear that NrgDocAdams has actually descended into forgery. I would like to think this is not so, but the evidence seems strong. Lima 05:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Orthodox input has been requested, but I don't believe any Orthodox editor would have anything to add to the references already contributed by Lima, particularly those from Ware and Myendorff, both of whom are standard, widely regarded as reliable, and representative of the Orthodox consensus patrum on this subject. I for one certainly don't. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:40, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Since other Orthodox opinions were solicited, let me say that the comments that User:Csernica makes here seem spot-on correct to me. (For reference, I am an Antiochian Orthodox deacon and seminarian.) — Preost talk contribs 03:36, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
OK, due to the edit warring, I've protected the article. Please note, as the tag itself indicates, that this is not an endorsement of the current version.
What I'd like to see is for everybody to calm down a little bit. Discuss your viewpoint, rather than throw insults at each other, here, as to why you believe that the article should be edited the way that you believe to be correct. Make a genuine effort to listen to each other. I do plan to unprotect in a few days. -- Nlu ( talk) 14:23, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Now that we have come to an official impasse, I would like to offer a summary of what this article should contain, as I see it.
I think it has been well established by the supplied quotations and other sources that "metousiosis"
Because of that last point, Orthodox quotations concerning the Eucharist are really beside the point. A detailed article on Orthodox Eucharistic theology would be welcome, but this really isn't the place for it considering the term's marginal status.
Now, it seems to me the article Nrgdocadams wants to write is from another angle entirely, how certain independent churches have developed this idea further. That this has little to do in the end with Orthodox theology is, I think, both self-evident from what was written and from the persistent inclusion of a link as to a source text of a treatise by C. W. Leadbeater who, as a bishop of the Liberal Catholic Church, was naturally also a prominent Theosophist. Now, such an article is perfectly proper if 1) It is not a presentation of a synthesis original to Nrgdocadams himself; 2) It really is believed and taught by some notable religious communion; and 3) "Metousiosis" really is the term used by that communion. References are, of course, necessary to establish all of these conditions -- I hasten to clarify that this is not me "laying down the law", but simply Wikipedia policy, and one that is particularly applicable, I think, to esoteric subjects where the vast majority of editors are unlikely to be familiar with it, as in this case. In the case of number 3, if that cannot be established it doesn't mean the article cannot exist as Nrgdocadams wants it, but simply that some other title would be more appropriate.
I would therefore not object to an article that consisted of two distinct sections: the first being a brief discussion of the Orthodox use of the term as outlined above, and the second a discussion of how the idea was elaborated by more recent groups. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:15, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree. If I may be permitted a slightly off-central-topic remark, I would suggest that someone, preferably Orthodox, should correct the various articles in which this personal interpretation of metousiosis has been attributed to the Orthodox Church and to Orthodox theologians. And the same should be done with regard to the attribution of the same ideas to Anglican and Lutheran theologians. Lima 09:44, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I have failed to find any source outside of Wikipedia that says the word metousiosis means anything other than transubstantiation. Those who do use the word echo the declaration of the Eastern Patriarchs, quoted also in the Catechism of Filaret, that metousiosis/transubstantiation does not say how the change takes place, but only what is changed. (The Roman Catholic understanding is, in fact, the same.) Unless someone can find a serious source for the ideas expounded by the imaginative contributor who has now withdrawn, blanking his user page and talk page, I think all but the first three paragraphs of this article will have to be deleted. However, even if everyone agrees, I do not wish to do that operation myself.
I think there must be a mistyping in the second paragraph , "thus" in place of "this", but I have not checked.
The Council of Jerusalem/Bethlehem did use Greek terms corresponding both to substantia and to accidentia (συμβεβηκότα, I think, but my memory may be false).
Lima 18:44, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
If we seem to have come to a consensus, I am planning to unprotect the article in a few hours, unless there are objections. -- Nlu ( talk) 04:11, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
This article seems to be mainly an argument for identity of Orthodox and Roman Catholic thought on the subject. I certainly got that impression reading it; the final sentence confirms it. There's not even a hint that many Orthodox thinkers distinguish the two.
If the two ideas really were identical, there would hardly be a need for two articles now, would there? A dissent from the official pro-Union line really ought to be represented here. 192.31.106.35 ( talk) 23:37, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
A single glance at the one citation was enough to convince of the agenda here. The article happily quotes [10] to point up, "the Patriarchs were adamant on the question of Transubstantiation" -- but totally eliminates the context given in the second half of the very same sentence, "because the struggle in the East against Calvinistic teaching of the Holy Eucharist was very recent," also glossing over the fact that the correspondence under discussion took place in 1725! It furthermore ignores the statement further on:
And that was much more recent, from 1920.
A wide, non-agendized reading of recent relevant sources will convince that "ousia" here is not intended in the technical Nicene sense, but that "metousiosis" was coined merely to re-emphasize the genuine "Real Presence" in Orthodox teaching in the face of Calvinist elements within the Church. To not even mention this is disingenuous at best, dishonest at worst, and clearly not NPOV. 192.31.106.35 ( talk) 23:50, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
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Hopefully, these changes elucidate.
Nrgdocadams 09:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)Nrgdocadams
What exactly is the etymology of "atonement". I have a problem with the "at-one-ment" link in the text, unless that is actually the etymological origin of the word (which I doubt).-- Srleffler 05:38, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Nrgdocadams falsely says I "asserted" that the Greek prefix meta- (I use Latin characters for Greek words in this comment) means "across". I didn't. It doesn't. In words like metousiosis (this is the correct spelling, not "metousisosius") it acts exactly like the Latin prefix trans-, indicating a change of something. The words metamorphosis and transformation (in Latin, "transformatio") both mean a change of form ("morphe" in Greek, "forma" in Latin). The Greek word metousiosis means a change of ousia, the Latin word transsubstantiatio means a change of substantia. Several Latin words have been used to translate the Greek word ousia. One is "substantia". Surely Nrgdocadams knows of the most famous instance: in the Nicene Creed, the key word homoousion ("of the same ousia") in the Greek text appears in the Latin text as consubstantialem ("sharing the same substantia"). So "metousiosis" and "transsubstantiatio" correspond exactly with each other as words, but their meaning, as I stated in the article, differs. Ngrdocadams has apparently wished to conceal this to him disagreeable fact. But perhaps he may now agree to revert his - whatever you wish to call it, censorship? vandalism? Lima 10:21, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I forgot to express my surprise that NgrDocAdams attributes miaphysitism to the Eastern Orthodox Church, that he thinks the transubstantiation explanation existed only in the past ("was a medieval Roman Catholic doctrine that, at one time, sought ...". He speaks of a change of "hypostasis", a word which he says is here equivalent to "ousia", essence, and says the "physis", nature, remains; I am puzzled therefore why, immediately afterwards, he objects to a reference to a mystical distinction between a nature and its essence and insists that it is instead a mystical distinction between a "substance" (a word whose meaning, for him, in this context he has not explained) and its essence. Lima 11:09, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I intended to make no more adjustments to the Metousiosis article than the rather superficial ones I made in what I thought would be a single once-for-all general revision. The reaction of NrgDocAdams is inspiring me to study the question more deeply - and to revise the article more deeply. It is now on my watchlist.
Would NrgDocAdams kindly indicate where any of the External Links he gives at the foot of the article mention metousiosis. I would like at least to learn where the second of them provides "an exposition on Eucharistic mysticism that connects metousiosis to the Eternal Sacrifice", since the word "metousiosis" does not appear in the site's index. I am convinced that the other three external links have absolutely no mention of metousiosis. I may have to remove them all, even the second, and replace them with links that do mention metousiosis.
I must surely also at some stage remove from the article the heterodox (for Christians who accept more than three ecumenical councils) notion ("miaphysitism") that Christ has one "physis" or nature, not two. But that will have to wait.
For the moment, I want just to concentrate on the word metousiosis itself. Its similarity with transsubstantiatio is striking for any student of Greek and Latin. In spite of that, I at first presumed that the author of this article knew what he was talking about when he gave the two words different meanings. But a brief check of Internet sites (omitting Wikipedia and its mirrors) has now shown clearly that the Greek word metousiosis was in fact coined as a translation of the Latin word transsubstantiatio. Unless NrgDocAdams can bring forward some contrary evidence, the historical fact of the original meaning of the word metousiosis will have to be inserted at the beginning of the article. Indeed, that original meaning may well still be current, as some of the following quotations seem also to show. (The added emphases are mine.)
Quotation 1. [1]
Pages 283-284 from Ware's book The Orthodox Church:
"As the words of the Epiclesis make abundantly plain, the Orthodox Church believes that after consecration the bread and wine become in very truth the Body and Blood of Christ; they are not mere symbols, but the reality. But while Orthodoxy has always insisted on the reality of the change, it has never attempted to explain the manner of the change: the Eucharistic Prayer in the Liturgy simply uses the neutral term metaballo, to 'turn around', 'change', or 'alter.' It is true that in the 17th century not only Orthodox writers but Orthodox councils such as that of Jerusalem in 1672 made use of the Latin term 'transubstantiation' (in Greek, metousiosis) together with the Scholastic distinction between substance and accidents. But at the same time, the Fathers of Jerusalem were careful to add that the use of these terms does not constitute an explanation of the manner of the change, since this is a mystery and must always remain incomprehensible."
Quotation 2. [2]
Orthodox theologian John Meyendorff writes in Byzantine Theology:
"....in the Eucharist, man participates in the glorified humanity of Christ, which is not the 'essence of God,' but a humanity still consubstantial to man and available to him as food and drink....for later Byzantine theologians, the Eucharist is Christ's transfigured, life-giving, but still human, body, en-hypostasized in the Logos and penetrated with divine 'energies.' Characteristically, one never finds the category of 'essence' (ousia) used by Byzantine theologians in a Eucharistic context. They would consider a term like 'transubstantiation' (metousiosis) improper to designate the Eucharistic mystery, and generally use the concept of metabole, found in the canon of John Chrysostom, or such dynamic terms as 'trans-elementation' (metastoicheiosis) or 're-ordination' (metarrhythmisis).
"Transubstantiation (metousiosis) appears only in the writings of the Latinophrones of the thirteenth century, and is nothing but a straight translation from the Latin. The first Orthodox author to use it is Gennadios Scholarios; but, in his case as well, direct Latin influence is obvious."
Quotation 3. [3]
GENNADIUS (c. 1453 AD) At the time of the Council of Florence (1439), a layman named George Scholarius (later known as Gennadius and appointed Patriarch of Constantinople in 1453) wrote a treatise "Homily on the Sacramental Body of our Lord Jesus Christ" and introduces language and phraseology that had become current in the West. He is the first individual to use the word "TRANSUBSTANTIATION" (Greek metousiosis) in reference to the Eucharist in the East (see Stone, page 172ff for the original Greek). The term had become standard in the West by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. Gennadius speaks of the change (Greek metabole) of the SUBSTANCE (Greek ousia) of the elements into the SUBSTANCE of the body and blood of Christ; of the "ACCIDENTS" (Greek sumbebekota) of the bread and wine remaining unchanged; of the body of Christ being with its appropriate ACCIDENTS, while the bread retains its ACCIDENTS without its own SUBSTANCE; and of the outward state of the elements being preserved in view of the repugnance which communicants might otherwise feel. He maintains that the body of Christ is not in the Sacrament naturally but after the manner of a Sacrament, and therefore is not in it as in a place, and is not under the dimensions of a real body but under the dimensions of the bread only. He says that each fragment is the whole body of Christ, and that the body of Christ in heaven and on every altar on earth is one and the same, being that body which was born of the Virgin, was once on the cross, and is now in heaven (the full text of the Sermon of Gennadius is found in Migne PG 160:351-374).
Quotation 4. [4]
Following the Western resolution of the dogma of the real presence in the Eucharist, Orthodox writers adopted the literal translation of "transubstantiation" into Greek (metousiosis).
Quotation 5. [5] An excerpt from one of these letters will be of present interest. 'I have had a curious correspondence with Father Popoff about Transubstantiation. ... I confess it seems to me nonsense to say, "We believe in metousiosis, but we say nothing of the mode, and we use the word in a sense of our own, distinct from the Latin meaning." And the Slavonic word presuchchestvlenie, is almost stronger, means - were there such a word - transapparentiation. Again, in another letter: 'If metousiosis be not transubstantiation, how is homoousios consubstantial?'
(end of the quotations)
I am in fact wondering how much, or rather how little, of NrgDocAdam's work on this article really fits the rule "Content must not violate any copyright and must be verifiable." Unfortunately, for the rest of this week I have little time to pursue my studies in this field.
Lima 19:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Is the whole article original research? Nrgdocadams created this article, and has been essentially the only editor. -- Srleffler 00:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I conclude from the above:
1. NgrDocAdams does not (and cannot) deny that the word metousiosis was coined as a translation of transsubstantiatio.
2. Leadbeater does not mention at all the word metousiosis and, to judge by the quotation given here, describes what happens in the Eucharist in a way fully in harmony with the doctrine of transubstantiation
3. NgrDocAdams finds no real contradiction between metousiosis and transubstantiation. He sees the ARCIC documents, which are in accord with the doctrine of transubstantiation - though, for historical reasons, the Anglican theologians involved wanted to avoid the word, they did not deny the doctrine, otherwise there would have been no agreement with the Catholic participants - as in perfect accord also with metousiosis.
4. Metousiosis, as described by NgrDocAdams, "certainly offends against the standard Orthodox positioning of Negative Theology" much more than transubstantiation does. Transubstantiation says only that the inner reality of the bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ and that the appearances remain. NgrDocAdams's metousiosis says not only that the "hypostasis" - a word explained as equivalent to "ousia", i.e. inner reality (cf. Liddell and Scott) - of the bread and the wine are changed into the "full reality" of the Risen Christ, but also that the "hypostases" of the partakers in the mystery are changed too, and moreover that they are commissioned to live-forth the mystery into the world. Quite a lot of positive theology. The faith of the Eastern Orthodox Church is that what was bread becomes a clearly different reality, the body of Christ, and NgrDocAdams's metousiosis posits a somewhat similar change in the partakers, involving their "hypostases" or inner reality too. Indeed quite a lot of positive theology to add to what transubstantiation involves.
Note 1. Transubstantiation is about what change occurs in the Eucharist, not about how the change is brought about. The Roman Catholic Church, like the Eastern Orthodox Church, teaches that the "how" of the change cannot be explained in human terms, but only as a miraculous and mysterious intervention of God.
Note 2. The Roman Catholic Church too teaches that the Eucharist produces effects in the participants and sends them out to affect their surroundings (see, for instance, Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1391-1397).
Note 3. The quoted expressions from the Byzantine liturgy contradict, of course, in absolutely no way the doctrine of transubstantiation. The Catechism of the Catholic Church also quotes the Byzantine liturgy.
Lima 18:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
NrgDocAdams claims that the ARCIC document on the Eucharist teaches metousiosis. The claims he has inserted in various articles about Anglican, Lutheran and other theologians adopting the concept of metousiosis rather than transubstantiation may be equally unfounded. It may be necessary to ask him to give evidence of these claims. Lima 20:50, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I have no idea who is right here, but I would like to point out that it ought to be possible to incorporate an explanation of the etymological relation of the greek word "metousiosis" to the latin word "transsubstantiatio", without implying that the two doctrines are the same.-- Srleffler 03:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, it does not seem possible, since the word met-ousi-osis was invented to render in Greek the idea of trans-substanti-atio, and was used in that sense for several centuries. Nowadays, however, some treat it as having a different sense, which they seem to find it hard to define. Lima 14:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
NrgDocAdams seems to have confused -phania (from the Greek root φαν, appear) with -phagia (from the Greek root φαγ, eat). I think nobody has coined a Latin word corresponding to the Greek word that appears in English as Theophany; in Latin you would have to say "Dei manifestatio", "Dei apparitio", as in English. Lima 14:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
1. Can NrgDocAdams quote any use of the term metousiosis earlier than 1079? Can he quote anything from Saint Basil compatible only with his notion of metousiosis and not with, for instance, the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
2. If the quotation he gave from Leadbeater is an exposition of metousiosis, so is, for instance, Pope John Paul II's encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia, which among other things says: "Through our communion in his body and blood, Christ also grants us his Spirit. Saint Ephrem writes: 'He called the bread his living body and he filled it with himself and his Spirit ... He who eats it with faith, eats Fire and Spirit ... Take and eat this, all of you, and eat with it the Holy Spirit. For it is truly my body and whoever eats it will have eternal life. The Church implores this divine Gift, the source of every other gift, in the Eucharistic epiclesis. In the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, for example, we find the prayer: 'We beseech, implore and beg you: send your Holy Spirit upon us all and upon these gifts ... that those who partake of them may be purified in soul, received the forgiveness of their sins, and share in the Holy Spirit.' And in the Roman Missal the celebrant prays: "grant that we who are nourished by his body and blood may be filled with his Holy Spirit, and become one body, one spirit in Christ.' Thus by the gift of his body and blood Christ increases within us the gift of his Spirit, already poured out in Baptism and bestowed as a 'seal' in the sacrament of Confirmation" (section 17).
3. NrgDocAdams uses the phrase "natural substance" of what can be seen and touched, what in the doctrine of transubstantiation is called the accidents or appearances and whose permanence as a reality is part of the doctrine; what NrgDocAdams calls "essence" seems to be exactly what in the doctrine of transubstantiation is called "substance". NrgDocAdams rightly rejects his interpretation of transubstantiation. I do too. I accept the doctrine of transubstantiation. He should too. By a "dogma" is usually meant a teaching defined by a Council. Would NrgDocAdams kindly quote "the primitive Church's dogma of metousiosis". I think he does not, at least now, say that transubstantiation claims to explain how the change is brought about (if he does, would he please indicate the source of his conviction), but that it indicates only the manner or mode of the presence of Christ. He probably agrees with the teaching of the Catholic Church, and of the Eastern Orthodox Church, that the manner or mode of Christ's presence is sacramental or mystical, and not, at least in the ordinary sense, physical or corporal. His difficulty may therefore again be due to a misunderstanding.
4. Would NrgDocAdams be kind enough to explain to one who is too ignorant to glean the meaning of the written word, but who imagines he knows the difference between "positive" and "negative", in what way an increase in the number of positive statements can be considered to be in greater accord with a "Negative Theology" (the traditional technical term is "apophatic theology"), of which this same ignorant person is judged to show a lack of reading.
I am not trying to make the article conform to anything other than the facts of history (what the word metousiosis originally meant, whatever it means now), and to freedom from falsehoods about Roman Catholic teaching (if transubstantiation can be explained without talking about metousiosis, why on earth cannot metousiosis be explained without presenting an incorrect idea, or even a correct idea, of transubstantiation?).
Lima 14:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like to see the exact sources for the quotations used in the article. I cannot confirm them against any reference I can find. Compare the quote from St. Cyril as given to the version found here [6] and it's evident that they are nearly word-for-word identical. They differ only by small details of punctuation, typography, source translation for the quotations from John 6:57 and 63 -- and the addition of the words "by way of a great metousiosis" in the Wiki article's version. I cannot locate a complete version of St. Basil's The Morals online, but the same passage is quoted here [7] which again is word-for-word identical -- again aside from source translation for the scripture quote, this time from 1 Cor 11:29 -- but for the addition of the words "this metousiosis" in the Wiki article.
Since, at least, the NPNF series is a standard, reliable reference and contradicts what we are given here -- indeed, it lacks the very word necessary to make it applicable -- I think it's not at all out of line to ask for specific sources here. Whose translations are these, and from what editions? TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:20, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
NgrDocAdams has said he will "report" me for vandalism. My response is: Please do. That may put an end to his presumably unverifiable insertions. TCC's comment makes it appear that NrgDocAdams has actually descended into forgery. I would like to think this is not so, but the evidence seems strong. Lima 05:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Orthodox input has been requested, but I don't believe any Orthodox editor would have anything to add to the references already contributed by Lima, particularly those from Ware and Myendorff, both of whom are standard, widely regarded as reliable, and representative of the Orthodox consensus patrum on this subject. I for one certainly don't. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:40, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Since other Orthodox opinions were solicited, let me say that the comments that User:Csernica makes here seem spot-on correct to me. (For reference, I am an Antiochian Orthodox deacon and seminarian.) — Preost talk contribs 03:36, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
OK, due to the edit warring, I've protected the article. Please note, as the tag itself indicates, that this is not an endorsement of the current version.
What I'd like to see is for everybody to calm down a little bit. Discuss your viewpoint, rather than throw insults at each other, here, as to why you believe that the article should be edited the way that you believe to be correct. Make a genuine effort to listen to each other. I do plan to unprotect in a few days. -- Nlu ( talk) 14:23, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Now that we have come to an official impasse, I would like to offer a summary of what this article should contain, as I see it.
I think it has been well established by the supplied quotations and other sources that "metousiosis"
Because of that last point, Orthodox quotations concerning the Eucharist are really beside the point. A detailed article on Orthodox Eucharistic theology would be welcome, but this really isn't the place for it considering the term's marginal status.
Now, it seems to me the article Nrgdocadams wants to write is from another angle entirely, how certain independent churches have developed this idea further. That this has little to do in the end with Orthodox theology is, I think, both self-evident from what was written and from the persistent inclusion of a link as to a source text of a treatise by C. W. Leadbeater who, as a bishop of the Liberal Catholic Church, was naturally also a prominent Theosophist. Now, such an article is perfectly proper if 1) It is not a presentation of a synthesis original to Nrgdocadams himself; 2) It really is believed and taught by some notable religious communion; and 3) "Metousiosis" really is the term used by that communion. References are, of course, necessary to establish all of these conditions -- I hasten to clarify that this is not me "laying down the law", but simply Wikipedia policy, and one that is particularly applicable, I think, to esoteric subjects where the vast majority of editors are unlikely to be familiar with it, as in this case. In the case of number 3, if that cannot be established it doesn't mean the article cannot exist as Nrgdocadams wants it, but simply that some other title would be more appropriate.
I would therefore not object to an article that consisted of two distinct sections: the first being a brief discussion of the Orthodox use of the term as outlined above, and the second a discussion of how the idea was elaborated by more recent groups. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:15, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree. If I may be permitted a slightly off-central-topic remark, I would suggest that someone, preferably Orthodox, should correct the various articles in which this personal interpretation of metousiosis has been attributed to the Orthodox Church and to Orthodox theologians. And the same should be done with regard to the attribution of the same ideas to Anglican and Lutheran theologians. Lima 09:44, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I have failed to find any source outside of Wikipedia that says the word metousiosis means anything other than transubstantiation. Those who do use the word echo the declaration of the Eastern Patriarchs, quoted also in the Catechism of Filaret, that metousiosis/transubstantiation does not say how the change takes place, but only what is changed. (The Roman Catholic understanding is, in fact, the same.) Unless someone can find a serious source for the ideas expounded by the imaginative contributor who has now withdrawn, blanking his user page and talk page, I think all but the first three paragraphs of this article will have to be deleted. However, even if everyone agrees, I do not wish to do that operation myself.
I think there must be a mistyping in the second paragraph , "thus" in place of "this", but I have not checked.
The Council of Jerusalem/Bethlehem did use Greek terms corresponding both to substantia and to accidentia (συμβεβηκότα, I think, but my memory may be false).
Lima 18:44, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
If we seem to have come to a consensus, I am planning to unprotect the article in a few hours, unless there are objections. -- Nlu ( talk) 04:11, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
This article seems to be mainly an argument for identity of Orthodox and Roman Catholic thought on the subject. I certainly got that impression reading it; the final sentence confirms it. There's not even a hint that many Orthodox thinkers distinguish the two.
If the two ideas really were identical, there would hardly be a need for two articles now, would there? A dissent from the official pro-Union line really ought to be represented here. 192.31.106.35 ( talk) 23:37, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
A single glance at the one citation was enough to convince of the agenda here. The article happily quotes [10] to point up, "the Patriarchs were adamant on the question of Transubstantiation" -- but totally eliminates the context given in the second half of the very same sentence, "because the struggle in the East against Calvinistic teaching of the Holy Eucharist was very recent," also glossing over the fact that the correspondence under discussion took place in 1725! It furthermore ignores the statement further on:
And that was much more recent, from 1920.
A wide, non-agendized reading of recent relevant sources will convince that "ousia" here is not intended in the technical Nicene sense, but that "metousiosis" was coined merely to re-emphasize the genuine "Real Presence" in Orthodox teaching in the face of Calvinist elements within the Church. To not even mention this is disingenuous at best, dishonest at worst, and clearly not NPOV. 192.31.106.35 ( talk) 23:50, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
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