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The article on it has sources backing Mesrop's credit (although it is noted that a number of Georgian scholars think otherwise).
Wikipedia is not a place for a blatant statements about issues which are not an established facts. Thus removing the statement about Georgian and Albanian alphabets. None of them were created by Mesrop. It's an Armenian tradition which states so and it in no way can be thought to be strictly true as the issue is way too much controversial. Per Georgian scripts you cannot have such statement into the article. Thanks. Jaqeli 10:57, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Surprising words coming from a user who labels a historical theory (yes, based on early Armenian sources and now supported by many non-Armenian scholars) propaganda. If you want to discuss things in "a civilized and calm manner", then I suggest you refrain from using such quite unnecessary terms. I welcome your last edit, but it still doesn't illustrate the entire picture. Here are some reliable sources by authoritative authors who agree with this view.
Mastoc' also created the Georgian and Caucasian-Albanian alphabets, based on the Armenian model.
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |editors=
ignored (|editor=
suggested) (
help)The creation of the Georgian alphabet is generally attributed to Mesrop, who is also credited with the creation of the Armenian alphabet.
It has been believed, and not only in Armenia, that all the Caucasian alphabets — Armenian, Georgian and Caucaso-Albanian — were invented in the fourth century by the Armenian scholar Mesrop Mashtots.
{{
cite book}}
: no-break space character in |quote=
at position 80 (
help)Note how James Russell directly supports the view. Grenoble says "the Georgian alphabet is generally attributed to Mesrop" and Rayfield states that "It has been believed, and not only in Armenia..." Conclusively, it is not just "According to an Armenian tradition". -- Երևանցի talk 21:18, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
There's more than enough contemporary scholars that attest to the origins of the Georgian alphabet being invented by Mesrop Mashdots. The consensus here supporting that notion is overwhelming. Merely stating that the Georgian scripts article is the one we should all abide by is not a valid argument either. Just because Georgian scripts is GA doesn't mean it's perfect. Besides, as far as I can see, you're the only user that worded the article that way quite some time ago [2]. Therefore, the Mesrop Mashdots article and the Georgian scripts article should be aligned to that effect. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 17:31, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
There was consensus on Georgian scripts and after that the article more or less became stable from all involved parties. Same goes for this article. We should do everything possible not to undermine its stability and follow the pattern. Jaqeli 10:57, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Should the lede contain the following phrase:
He was also, according to a number of scholars and contemporaneous Armenian sources, the creator of the Caucasian Albanian and Georgian alphabets.
As briefly discussed above, the wording shall change from "In contemporary Armenian sources he is also credited with creating" to the proposed version above. If approved, the wording in the lede of Georgian scripts shall change as well since it is currently the same.
For reference, the sources used for this sentence can be any one of the following:
Mastoc' also created the Georgian and Caucasian-Albanian alphabets, based on the Armenian model.
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |editors=
ignored (|editor=
suggested) (
help)St Mesrob is also credited with devising the Georgian alphabet in the early 400s AD - Georgian is a Caucasian, not an Indo- European, language - as well as the Albanian alphabet.
The creation of the Georgian alphabet is generally attributed to Mesrop, who is also credited with the creation of the Armenian alphabet.
The Caucasus region, including Georgia, was evangelized from Armenia, and Mashtots was credited also with the creation of the Georgian alphabet, making possible a national Christian literature.
It has been believed, and not only in Armenia, that all the Caucasian alphabets — Armenian, Georgian and Caucaso-Albanian — were invented in the fourth century by the Armenian scholar Mesrop Mashtots.
Étienne Dolet ( talk) 05:07, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Again, please stop cherry picking. We've been there, seen all those and discussed all of them at Georgian scripts talk page. No one rejects the Armenian tradition. It can be presented but Mesrop's connection to it should be described without controversial statements. It is a very complex issue and one cannot describe his connection with one sentence again per Georgian scripts. And all these "also credited", "is generally attributed" and "It has been believed" statements are and should be rejected as those authors who have no knowledge in Georgian linguistics or its history and just some blatant statements cherry-picked from those sources are cannot be taken as a pattern. Jaqeli 10:15, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Guys, I am not a scholar and I am not going to go too deep into your big debate here. I will just bring 2 facts to note: Bir el Qutt inscriptions - the oldest Goergian (Asomtavruli) manuscript dating 430 found near Jerusalem and Iakob Tsurtaveli's " Martyrdom of the Holy Queen Shushanik" written some time between 476 and 483 which is a full-fledged literary work, with its established style and forms, etc. Now imagine Mesrop who invented Armenian alphabet in 405 also invented a Georgian one simultaneously. Can you imagine people not having an alphabet in 405 would adopt, absorb and spread that alphabet so quickly beyond its borders (near Jerusalem) in just 2 decades? And have a full literary novel (Shuhanik's story) in just several decades? Even a child can figure that out that Georgians would have had more primitive forms of scripture far earlier than Mesrop was even born. The only early source attributing invention to Mesrop is Koryun. All other later sources are based on him. And, even a dilettante scholar knows that one source is not a strong statement. So, you can keep believing in that myth, but c'mon...)) Secondly, and in this one doesn't concern scriptures but just the sole fact Georgian languages don't belong to Indo-European language group means that proto-Georgian group at least is as old as proto-Indo-European group (or older). Which in turn means Georgian culture predates Armenian culture far beyond centuries (possibly by millennia), which is the offspring of proto-Indo-European culture (Armenian language is simply in Indo-European language group). Georgians are the only autochthonic people in this region. You don't need to compete all the time with Georgian culture. Armenian culture is great and a treasure of humanity, as well. You can compete with Greeks, for instance, which are also Indo-Europeans. Thank you! Peace! Ottoshmidt ( talk) 12:03, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The article on it has sources backing Mesrop's credit (although it is noted that a number of Georgian scholars think otherwise).
Wikipedia is not a place for a blatant statements about issues which are not an established facts. Thus removing the statement about Georgian and Albanian alphabets. None of them were created by Mesrop. It's an Armenian tradition which states so and it in no way can be thought to be strictly true as the issue is way too much controversial. Per Georgian scripts you cannot have such statement into the article. Thanks. Jaqeli 10:57, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Surprising words coming from a user who labels a historical theory (yes, based on early Armenian sources and now supported by many non-Armenian scholars) propaganda. If you want to discuss things in "a civilized and calm manner", then I suggest you refrain from using such quite unnecessary terms. I welcome your last edit, but it still doesn't illustrate the entire picture. Here are some reliable sources by authoritative authors who agree with this view.
Mastoc' also created the Georgian and Caucasian-Albanian alphabets, based on the Armenian model.
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |editors=
ignored (|editor=
suggested) (
help)The creation of the Georgian alphabet is generally attributed to Mesrop, who is also credited with the creation of the Armenian alphabet.
It has been believed, and not only in Armenia, that all the Caucasian alphabets — Armenian, Georgian and Caucaso-Albanian — were invented in the fourth century by the Armenian scholar Mesrop Mashtots.
{{
cite book}}
: no-break space character in |quote=
at position 80 (
help)Note how James Russell directly supports the view. Grenoble says "the Georgian alphabet is generally attributed to Mesrop" and Rayfield states that "It has been believed, and not only in Armenia..." Conclusively, it is not just "According to an Armenian tradition". -- Երևանցի talk 21:18, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
There's more than enough contemporary scholars that attest to the origins of the Georgian alphabet being invented by Mesrop Mashdots. The consensus here supporting that notion is overwhelming. Merely stating that the Georgian scripts article is the one we should all abide by is not a valid argument either. Just because Georgian scripts is GA doesn't mean it's perfect. Besides, as far as I can see, you're the only user that worded the article that way quite some time ago [2]. Therefore, the Mesrop Mashdots article and the Georgian scripts article should be aligned to that effect. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 17:31, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
There was consensus on Georgian scripts and after that the article more or less became stable from all involved parties. Same goes for this article. We should do everything possible not to undermine its stability and follow the pattern. Jaqeli 10:57, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Should the lede contain the following phrase:
He was also, according to a number of scholars and contemporaneous Armenian sources, the creator of the Caucasian Albanian and Georgian alphabets.
As briefly discussed above, the wording shall change from "In contemporary Armenian sources he is also credited with creating" to the proposed version above. If approved, the wording in the lede of Georgian scripts shall change as well since it is currently the same.
For reference, the sources used for this sentence can be any one of the following:
Mastoc' also created the Georgian and Caucasian-Albanian alphabets, based on the Armenian model.
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |editors=
ignored (|editor=
suggested) (
help)St Mesrob is also credited with devising the Georgian alphabet in the early 400s AD - Georgian is a Caucasian, not an Indo- European, language - as well as the Albanian alphabet.
The creation of the Georgian alphabet is generally attributed to Mesrop, who is also credited with the creation of the Armenian alphabet.
The Caucasus region, including Georgia, was evangelized from Armenia, and Mashtots was credited also with the creation of the Georgian alphabet, making possible a national Christian literature.
It has been believed, and not only in Armenia, that all the Caucasian alphabets — Armenian, Georgian and Caucaso-Albanian — were invented in the fourth century by the Armenian scholar Mesrop Mashtots.
Étienne Dolet ( talk) 05:07, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Again, please stop cherry picking. We've been there, seen all those and discussed all of them at Georgian scripts talk page. No one rejects the Armenian tradition. It can be presented but Mesrop's connection to it should be described without controversial statements. It is a very complex issue and one cannot describe his connection with one sentence again per Georgian scripts. And all these "also credited", "is generally attributed" and "It has been believed" statements are and should be rejected as those authors who have no knowledge in Georgian linguistics or its history and just some blatant statements cherry-picked from those sources are cannot be taken as a pattern. Jaqeli 10:15, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Guys, I am not a scholar and I am not going to go too deep into your big debate here. I will just bring 2 facts to note: Bir el Qutt inscriptions - the oldest Goergian (Asomtavruli) manuscript dating 430 found near Jerusalem and Iakob Tsurtaveli's " Martyrdom of the Holy Queen Shushanik" written some time between 476 and 483 which is a full-fledged literary work, with its established style and forms, etc. Now imagine Mesrop who invented Armenian alphabet in 405 also invented a Georgian one simultaneously. Can you imagine people not having an alphabet in 405 would adopt, absorb and spread that alphabet so quickly beyond its borders (near Jerusalem) in just 2 decades? And have a full literary novel (Shuhanik's story) in just several decades? Even a child can figure that out that Georgians would have had more primitive forms of scripture far earlier than Mesrop was even born. The only early source attributing invention to Mesrop is Koryun. All other later sources are based on him. And, even a dilettante scholar knows that one source is not a strong statement. So, you can keep believing in that myth, but c'mon...)) Secondly, and in this one doesn't concern scriptures but just the sole fact Georgian languages don't belong to Indo-European language group means that proto-Georgian group at least is as old as proto-Indo-European group (or older). Which in turn means Georgian culture predates Armenian culture far beyond centuries (possibly by millennia), which is the offspring of proto-Indo-European culture (Armenian language is simply in Indo-European language group). Georgians are the only autochthonic people in this region. You don't need to compete all the time with Georgian culture. Armenian culture is great and a treasure of humanity, as well. You can compete with Greeks, for instance, which are also Indo-Europeans. Thank you! Peace! Ottoshmidt ( talk) 12:03, 24 November 2017 (UTC)