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It appears that the connection made between Avatar and Memory is a violation of WP:NOR. Is there a source that states there is this connection? -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 18:42, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Exactly. The article essentially claims that Cameron ripped off Anderson's Memory, without any formal (or informal, for that matter) credit. The only source cited for this claim makes no mention of any such connection, nor does a quick Google search find any other reliable source mentioning significant similarities between the two works. Either a proper source must be found, or the material on Avatar removed. Hqb ( talk) 18:46, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
My Source
"dreist geklaut" means "boldly/cheekily snitched". It' s clear that Schätz must mean Anderson's novel, as long as my summary of its content remains.-- Hans Dunkelberg ( talk) 21:38, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
- Here is the text of the source indicated in the article.
- "Auf dem Planeten Pandora will eine irdische Firma einen seltenen Rohstoff abbauen. Um die feindlichen Ureinwohner, blaue, große Humanoide namens Na'vi, besser kennen zu lernen, werden "Avatare" gezüchtet, in deren Körper die Forscher den Planeten erkunden können. Camerons lange erwartetes 3-D-Abenteuer ist Spektakelkino alter Schule: dreist geklaut, vulgär erhaben und - wirklich mitreißend."
- Here is the text of the source indicated in the article.
- How do you know that it refers to Anderson's novel Memory?-- Bob K31416 ( talk) 22:04, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Schätz's verdict
Schätz's formulation is too strong. The words "dreist geklaut" can't refer to any of the other works mentioned in the German and the English Wikipedia articles on Avatar as similar to it, so far. The Falter is an acknowledged Austrian newspaper. I wouldn't like to play being a fool, here! But, really, Schätz formally doesn't refer to Memory. I've just told the thing onto the mailbox of an other German newspaper in the hope to provoke a more explicit article, thus. I wouldn't feel insulted, if You removed the remarks referring to Avatar, till a newspaper brings something of that kind.
(Bid to correct the grammar, if not somebody should already have done that: worthy of marrying; he reproaches them with!)-- Hans Dunkelberg ( talk) 10:51, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- I've commented it out for now. If no explicit support for the idea of Avatar plagiarizing Memory appears in a reliable source within the next week or so, it should be removed from the source entirely. (It'll remain in the page history, should we need to dig it out later). Hqb ( talk) 11:40, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, yeah, is o.k., so. It could be that Mr. Schätz didn`t grasp the origin of the plot of Avatar in Memory, anyway. There have been discussed influences of Anderson`s novella Call Me Joe onto Avatar, so far, on science fiction pages on the internet (for example here: Did James Cameron Rip Off Poul Anderson`s novella? - io9.com). The Falter sometimes has a tone which is a little harsh in an ironical way. That could, here, have been provoked just by that other discussion.-- Hans Dunkelberg ( talk) 11:44, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
"Flandry connection"
I am removing the following assertion:
- As gradually becomes clear to the reader, the story takes place in the period of the "Long Night" after the collapse of the Interstellar Empire which Dominic Flandry has served.
There is nothing in the story supporting this, apart from the mention of a collapsed (old) Empire and the spacefarers' interest in creating a New Empire. That's it, nothing about Flandry or the Long Night, which seems like someone's personal connection. As far as I'm aware, the story has never been linked to the Technic Civilization series.
I'm not too keen on the 1984 connection, either, or the classification as a "narration" rather than novelette, or the weird linking to SciFiArchive.com, which seems to be some used-book vendor site(?) -- what's wrong with ISFDB or something similar? Idontcareanymore ( talk) 02:44, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
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| This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||
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It appears that the connection made between Avatar and Memory is a violation of WP:NOR. Is there a source that states there is this connection? -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 18:42, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Exactly. The article essentially claims that Cameron ripped off Anderson's Memory, without any formal (or informal, for that matter) credit. The only source cited for this claim makes no mention of any such connection, nor does a quick Google search find any other reliable source mentioning significant similarities between the two works. Either a proper source must be found, or the material on Avatar removed. Hqb ( talk) 18:46, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
My Source
"dreist geklaut" means "boldly/cheekily snitched". It' s clear that Schätz must mean Anderson's novel, as long as my summary of its content remains.-- Hans Dunkelberg ( talk) 21:38, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
- Here is the text of the source indicated in the article.
- "Auf dem Planeten Pandora will eine irdische Firma einen seltenen Rohstoff abbauen. Um die feindlichen Ureinwohner, blaue, große Humanoide namens Na'vi, besser kennen zu lernen, werden "Avatare" gezüchtet, in deren Körper die Forscher den Planeten erkunden können. Camerons lange erwartetes 3-D-Abenteuer ist Spektakelkino alter Schule: dreist geklaut, vulgär erhaben und - wirklich mitreißend."
- Here is the text of the source indicated in the article.
- How do you know that it refers to Anderson's novel Memory?-- Bob K31416 ( talk) 22:04, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Schätz's verdict
Schätz's formulation is too strong. The words "dreist geklaut" can't refer to any of the other works mentioned in the German and the English Wikipedia articles on Avatar as similar to it, so far. The Falter is an acknowledged Austrian newspaper. I wouldn't like to play being a fool, here! But, really, Schätz formally doesn't refer to Memory. I've just told the thing onto the mailbox of an other German newspaper in the hope to provoke a more explicit article, thus. I wouldn't feel insulted, if You removed the remarks referring to Avatar, till a newspaper brings something of that kind.
(Bid to correct the grammar, if not somebody should already have done that: worthy of marrying; he reproaches them with!)-- Hans Dunkelberg ( talk) 10:51, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- I've commented it out for now. If no explicit support for the idea of Avatar plagiarizing Memory appears in a reliable source within the next week or so, it should be removed from the source entirely. (It'll remain in the page history, should we need to dig it out later). Hqb ( talk) 11:40, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, yeah, is o.k., so. It could be that Mr. Schätz didn`t grasp the origin of the plot of Avatar in Memory, anyway. There have been discussed influences of Anderson`s novella Call Me Joe onto Avatar, so far, on science fiction pages on the internet (for example here: Did James Cameron Rip Off Poul Anderson`s novella? - io9.com). The Falter sometimes has a tone which is a little harsh in an ironical way. That could, here, have been provoked just by that other discussion.-- Hans Dunkelberg ( talk) 11:44, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
"Flandry connection"
I am removing the following assertion:
- As gradually becomes clear to the reader, the story takes place in the period of the "Long Night" after the collapse of the Interstellar Empire which Dominic Flandry has served.
There is nothing in the story supporting this, apart from the mention of a collapsed (old) Empire and the spacefarers' interest in creating a New Empire. That's it, nothing about Flandry or the Long Night, which seems like someone's personal connection. As far as I'm aware, the story has never been linked to the Technic Civilization series.
I'm not too keen on the 1984 connection, either, or the classification as a "narration" rather than novelette, or the weird linking to SciFiArchive.com, which seems to be some used-book vendor site(?) -- what's wrong with ISFDB or something similar? Idontcareanymore ( talk) 02:44, 18 December 2012 (UTC)