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Given that the present Marquess was famous as "Dumfries", it's not surprising that his son does not use that style; and "Windsor" might easily be misunderstood (the future
Earl of Plymouth is called Viscount Windsor). But with three viscountcies to choose from, why use a lesser style? I guess there's something special about "Mount Stuart", but what? —
Tamfang 17:18, 9 May 2006 (UTC)reply
Scottish courtesy titles are often a lot less systematic, and there are many examples of families simply using a particular title for no better reason than that they want to. The Earls of Mar and Kellie, for instance, use "Lord Erskine" when they could use "Viscount Fentoun"; the Earls of Wemyss and March use both "Lord Neidpath" and "Lord Elcho", ignoring "Viscount Peebles"; the Earls of Leven and Melville use "Lord Balgonie" when they could use "Viscount Kirkaldie"; and I could go on. There does seem to be a general trend towards ignoring Viscountcies — I suppose the fact that the Lordship of Parliament is an older and more traditional rank might be playing some part here.
Proteus(Talk) 17:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)reply
Peerage Format.
Can someone check. I think the the Marquisate was created as: 'Marquess of the County of Bute' not 'Marquess of Bute'.
Alci12 15:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Yes, see here
[1]. But the title commonly used is 'Marquess of Bute'.
Phoe 15:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I'd checked that one before I had posted but Burke's agrees as well so all's well. As always commonly used is fine as long as we mention the correct form first!
Alci12 16:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I'd checked Burkes too, but hadn't posted it
[2]. I know it is always better to have got a couple of sources.
Phoe 16:44, 19 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Looking carefully Burkes does throw up Viscount of Ayr (twice) which wiki doesn't have and lists Baron Mount Stuart of Wortley, Co York. We need to verify we are right
Alci12 17:27, 19 July 2006 (UTC)reply
One Viscountcy of Ayr was created on
2 February1622 (along with the Lordship of Sanquhar), and the other on
12 June1633 (along with the Earldom of Dumfries and the Lordship of Crichton of Sanquhar and Cumnock), both for the same person.
Proteus(Talk) 18:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Thanks - I had considered that one could be a regrant not a second viscountcy. Scottish titles and there multiple uses and reuses of the same titles are always tricky. I assume they all have the usual remainders for Scottish and British titles respectively.
Alci12 22:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)reply
The British titles are normal, but the Earldom of Bute (etc.) is to heirs male whatsoever and the Earldom of Dumfries (etc.), originally to heirs male, had a rather strange regrant and now seems to be to heirs whatsoever.
Proteus(Talk) 22:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)reply
John Bryson Crichton-Stuart (born 21 December 1989) is the only son of the 7th Marquess and his wife Carolyn E. R. M. Waddell. He was styled as Lord Mount Stuart from 1993.[1]
On 22 March 2021 he succeeded his father as Lord Crichton of Sanquhar (1488), Viscount Air and Lord of Sanquhar (1622), Earl of Dumfries and Lord Crichton of Sanquhar and Cumnock (1633), Earl of Bute, Viscount Kingarth and Lord Mountstuart, Cumra and Inchmarnock (1703), all in the
peerage of Scotland. The heir presumptive to these titles is his eldest sister, Lady Caroline Crichton-Stuart (born 1984).[1][2]
At the same time, he became Baron Mount Stuart of Wortley (1761), Baron Cardiff of Cardiff Castle (1776), Marquess of Bute, Earl of Windsor and Viscount Mountjoy (1796), all in the
peerage of Great Britain. The
heir presumptive to these titles is his uncle,
Lord Anthony Crichton-Stuart (born 1961), second son of the 6th Marquess.[1][2]
I guess the sister is Mistress of Dumfries. Do baronetcies of Nova Scotia, like Scottish peerages, pass to daughters? —
Tamfang (
talk) 18:20, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
Tamfang (
talk) 18:20, 13 February 2023 (UTC)reply
Your version is definitely better than the current version (although the Earldom of Bute and its subsidiary titles are limited to heirs male, so would pass with the Marquessate rather than with the Earldom of Dumfries), but isn't it still all just too much? We wouldn't list all the subsidiary titles in an actual article, so it seems odd to list them in a section. I'd suggest something much simpler, along the lines of:
John Bryson Crichton-Stuart, 8th Marquess of Bute (born 21 December 1989) is the only son of the 7th Marquess and his wife Carolyn E. R. M. Waddell. He was styled Lord Mount Stuart from 1993 until he succeeded his father in 2021.[1]
He has no children. His heir presumptive in the Marquessate and Earldom of Bute, and their subsidiary titles, as well as in the Baronies of Mount Stuart and Cardiff in the
Peerage of Great Britain and in his baronetcy in the
Baronetage of Nova Scotia, is his uncle,
Lord Anthony Crichton-Stuart (born 1961), second son of the 6th Marquess, but his heir presumptive in the Earldom of Dumfries and its subsidiary titles, which can pass through the female line, is his eldest sister, Lady Caroline Crichton-Stuart (born 1984).[1][2]
Either of these is better than the current, which is sub-optimal and difficult to read at best. Of these two, i would suggest Proteus's is more easily followed and, i think, reads better. Happy days ~ LindsayHello 10:55, 14 February 2023 (UTC)reply
I essentially agree, but: Can one unambiguously infer, from anything in the article, which titles are subsidiary to which? —
Tamfang (
talk) 17:16, 14 February 2023 (UTC)reply
I asked this also at
Talk:Dumfries House: who owned it between 1803, when John became 7th
Earl of Dumfries (succeeding his mother's father), and 1814, when he became 2d Marquess of Bute (succeeding his father's father)? —
Tamfang (
talk) 21:23, 16 February 2023 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cardiff, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Cardiff-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CardiffWikipedia:WikiProject CardiffTemplate:WikiProject CardiffCardiff articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Wales, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Wales on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WalesWikipedia:WikiProject WalesTemplate:WikiProject WalesWales articles
Given that the present Marquess was famous as "Dumfries", it's not surprising that his son does not use that style; and "Windsor" might easily be misunderstood (the future
Earl of Plymouth is called Viscount Windsor). But with three viscountcies to choose from, why use a lesser style? I guess there's something special about "Mount Stuart", but what? —
Tamfang 17:18, 9 May 2006 (UTC)reply
Scottish courtesy titles are often a lot less systematic, and there are many examples of families simply using a particular title for no better reason than that they want to. The Earls of Mar and Kellie, for instance, use "Lord Erskine" when they could use "Viscount Fentoun"; the Earls of Wemyss and March use both "Lord Neidpath" and "Lord Elcho", ignoring "Viscount Peebles"; the Earls of Leven and Melville use "Lord Balgonie" when they could use "Viscount Kirkaldie"; and I could go on. There does seem to be a general trend towards ignoring Viscountcies — I suppose the fact that the Lordship of Parliament is an older and more traditional rank might be playing some part here.
Proteus(Talk) 17:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)reply
Peerage Format.
Can someone check. I think the the Marquisate was created as: 'Marquess of the County of Bute' not 'Marquess of Bute'.
Alci12 15:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Yes, see here
[1]. But the title commonly used is 'Marquess of Bute'.
Phoe 15:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I'd checked that one before I had posted but Burke's agrees as well so all's well. As always commonly used is fine as long as we mention the correct form first!
Alci12 16:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I'd checked Burkes too, but hadn't posted it
[2]. I know it is always better to have got a couple of sources.
Phoe 16:44, 19 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Looking carefully Burkes does throw up Viscount of Ayr (twice) which wiki doesn't have and lists Baron Mount Stuart of Wortley, Co York. We need to verify we are right
Alci12 17:27, 19 July 2006 (UTC)reply
One Viscountcy of Ayr was created on
2 February1622 (along with the Lordship of Sanquhar), and the other on
12 June1633 (along with the Earldom of Dumfries and the Lordship of Crichton of Sanquhar and Cumnock), both for the same person.
Proteus(Talk) 18:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Thanks - I had considered that one could be a regrant not a second viscountcy. Scottish titles and there multiple uses and reuses of the same titles are always tricky. I assume they all have the usual remainders for Scottish and British titles respectively.
Alci12 22:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)reply
The British titles are normal, but the Earldom of Bute (etc.) is to heirs male whatsoever and the Earldom of Dumfries (etc.), originally to heirs male, had a rather strange regrant and now seems to be to heirs whatsoever.
Proteus(Talk) 22:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)reply
John Bryson Crichton-Stuart (born 21 December 1989) is the only son of the 7th Marquess and his wife Carolyn E. R. M. Waddell. He was styled as Lord Mount Stuart from 1993.[1]
On 22 March 2021 he succeeded his father as Lord Crichton of Sanquhar (1488), Viscount Air and Lord of Sanquhar (1622), Earl of Dumfries and Lord Crichton of Sanquhar and Cumnock (1633), Earl of Bute, Viscount Kingarth and Lord Mountstuart, Cumra and Inchmarnock (1703), all in the
peerage of Scotland. The heir presumptive to these titles is his eldest sister, Lady Caroline Crichton-Stuart (born 1984).[1][2]
At the same time, he became Baron Mount Stuart of Wortley (1761), Baron Cardiff of Cardiff Castle (1776), Marquess of Bute, Earl of Windsor and Viscount Mountjoy (1796), all in the
peerage of Great Britain. The
heir presumptive to these titles is his uncle,
Lord Anthony Crichton-Stuart (born 1961), second son of the 6th Marquess.[1][2]
I guess the sister is Mistress of Dumfries. Do baronetcies of Nova Scotia, like Scottish peerages, pass to daughters? —
Tamfang (
talk) 18:20, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
Tamfang (
talk) 18:20, 13 February 2023 (UTC)reply
Your version is definitely better than the current version (although the Earldom of Bute and its subsidiary titles are limited to heirs male, so would pass with the Marquessate rather than with the Earldom of Dumfries), but isn't it still all just too much? We wouldn't list all the subsidiary titles in an actual article, so it seems odd to list them in a section. I'd suggest something much simpler, along the lines of:
John Bryson Crichton-Stuart, 8th Marquess of Bute (born 21 December 1989) is the only son of the 7th Marquess and his wife Carolyn E. R. M. Waddell. He was styled Lord Mount Stuart from 1993 until he succeeded his father in 2021.[1]
He has no children. His heir presumptive in the Marquessate and Earldom of Bute, and their subsidiary titles, as well as in the Baronies of Mount Stuart and Cardiff in the
Peerage of Great Britain and in his baronetcy in the
Baronetage of Nova Scotia, is his uncle,
Lord Anthony Crichton-Stuart (born 1961), second son of the 6th Marquess, but his heir presumptive in the Earldom of Dumfries and its subsidiary titles, which can pass through the female line, is his eldest sister, Lady Caroline Crichton-Stuart (born 1984).[1][2]
Either of these is better than the current, which is sub-optimal and difficult to read at best. Of these two, i would suggest Proteus's is more easily followed and, i think, reads better. Happy days ~ LindsayHello 10:55, 14 February 2023 (UTC)reply
I essentially agree, but: Can one unambiguously infer, from anything in the article, which titles are subsidiary to which? —
Tamfang (
talk) 17:16, 14 February 2023 (UTC)reply
I asked this also at
Talk:Dumfries House: who owned it between 1803, when John became 7th
Earl of Dumfries (succeeding his mother's father), and 1814, when he became 2d Marquess of Bute (succeeding his father's father)? —
Tamfang (
talk) 21:23, 16 February 2023 (UTC)reply