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Perhaps the image is a tad too big. I uploaded it that way because I wanted the letters to be visible, but perhaps I should upload a smaller version and link to the larger one. What do you think? ¬ Dori 22:36, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I think you should put him between Albanian writers, as he is in it.wikipedia. I would do it by myself, but I do not know how. Mormegil 3:10, Aug 20, 2006 (GMT)
The fact that modern Albania honours Barleti as national writer does not make Barleti an Albanian. It is customary to small nations with limited history to claim locally born people as its nationals. Compare this to the attempt of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (or just Macedonia) to claim Alexander the Great. Kentavros ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:50, 16 January 2009 (UTC).
This work says that Marin Barleti was probably of Italian origin:
...was a native of Scutari (Shkoder) in Albania, and perhaps of Italian origin.
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |year=
(
help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help)Kenneth Setton was an expert on the history of medieval Europe who received the Haskins Medal of the Medieval Academy of America and John Frederick Lewis Prize of the Philosophical Society for this work.
I propose to add this information about Barleti's possible Italian origin to the text of the article. Anyone objects?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 14:28, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Can I just get this clear? So some American scholar makes a cursory claim (based on what who knows?) that Marin Barleti was "perhaps of Italian origin" and this is supposed to be taken as authoritative? Not the opinion of the people to which Barleti belongs and of whom he speaks, who have carried the history of centuries. Don't you think scholarship from Shkodra need be consulted? This is what happens when foreigners write your history for you; they decide how to tell it and in their terms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.150.48.208 ( talk) 03:58, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
(unindent)That's not a quote from Setton himself and the only thing written by Setton himself is the part of the index(Marinus Barletius, Albanian historian). That being said some other source except for a small part that wasn't even written by Setton by himself should be brought by Antid. (i.e extraordinary claims need extraordinary sources).-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:44, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)Then why can't Italian be used as demonym and vice-versa? Don't OR i.e please don't bring this up again unless there are sources.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)The first was written in 1538 i.e your original source is the 1538 work that used the phrase Scodrense and the second isn't written by a historian but by someone whose work focused on Neo-Latin. It's important to use sources that have some kind of authority on the subject(there was a similar discussion recently on Zeibekiko). In the above sentence he says that the Ottoman conquest was consolidated in 1478, which is far from being precise or correct since most of the country had already been conquered long before the fall of the last free city Shkodër, but that doesn't make him unreliable, because he's not a historian dealing with medieval Albania, but a linguist that merely mentioned the incident.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 00:01, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
The only Italian chronicler of his day to whose work Spandounes makes specific reference by name is Marino 'Scodrense', or Marinus Barletius.
Look Antid&Zjarri, the reason why Setton (and other possible similar works) contradicts on Barleti, is that Barleti wasn't the subject of study for Setton (or Nicol) and that's why he is not in the body of their works but on their footnotes. They merely dedicate a short sentence to him, while the Italians above were actually writing some pages on him, because he was part of the study in that case. I can bring hundreds of sources claiming in short sentences that he was an Albanian, but I am not doing it. I prefer to go after his biographers, the persons who actually made him a subject of interest. What actually do they claim? That is the way to go with articles on biographies. Just for others courtesy I am trying to find articles in English (possibly online) about him, otherwise I will use monographs dedicated to him in Albanian language. There are some works on him in Albanian. just as this one Aigest ( talk) 09:07, 4 June 2011 (UTC) P.S. in case you didn't understand why I brought that source is that what experts on Italian language actually claim is that "those (historians) who try to link Barleti (Italian) origin with the city of Barleta based on his surname Barleti, are wrong because that surname Barleti does not come from Italian but from Albanian Bardheci = (Eng) White." That is more relevant than just short sentences (and what you think). Aigest ( talk) 09:15, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
That is something interesting and very informative. It should be inserted in the article Aigest ( talk) 07:44, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone know the origin of the photo used in the infobox? (File:MarinBarleti.jpg). Is it authentic or an artist rendering? Rereward ( talk) 08:19, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Qenim edit warred ( diff) to boldly:
Some schollars... assume Barleti was such settler from Italy. On the other hand most Albanian scholars assert that Barleti was Albanian in every sense.- Important note: this work is published in Albania, in Tirana, by Onufri Publishing house.
Taken in consideration that above edit is clearly based on source misinterpretation and racist arguments it will be undone.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 18:54, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
There are many sources that confirm that "The History of Skanderbeg" was first published in 1480 in Venice and later in the Vatican and Rome. The question is: If it was published in 1480 and "Siege of Scodra" in 1504, it seems to be the first work and not the second? Bes-ART Talk 16:22, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
scholars variously assert that he was of Italian ( DuCange, Iorga), Dalmatian ( Giovio, Czwittinger, Fabricius), or Albanian ( Zeno, Fallmerayer, Jireček) ethnic originSource: Francesco Pall (1938), Marino Barlezio: uno storico umanista (no page)
Che Barlezio fosse un Italiano, ci monstrano la sua cultura, i suoi sentimenti, cosi comme essi appaiono dagli scritti, specialmente da un passo della Storia di Scanderbeg, dicendo, sebbene per bocca del condottiero Jacopo Piccinino, che i Francesi sono superbi e hanno un odio innato per gli Italiani, dei quali vogliono rendersi padroni per servirsene di giumento.[That Barlezio was an Italian, it is showed to us by his culture, his feelings, as they appear from the writings, especially from a passage in the History of Scanderbeg, saying, although through the words of the condottiere Jacopo Piccinino, that the French are proud and have a innate hatred for the Italians, of whom they want to make themselves masters in order to use them as a mare.] But all that Du Cange writes is that Barleti wrote in Italian and Giovio's entry is not about Marin Barleti. Pall (1938) recognizes in pp. 142- 143 that Giovio's entry and others (Czwittinger, Fabricius) are not about Barleti.
Pall believed that Barleti was not Albanian, but Italian, a view that was naturally rejected by Albanian scholars. The discussion is obviously wrapped up in recent battles over the legitimacy of the Albanian state, and Pall wrote during the period when Mussolini was in the process of involving Albania in his empire.
References
How is it possible that the most important Albanian historian, at least from the perspective of our history, is not identified as such in the wikipedia article? Marin is an Albanian name. He wrote about the siege of his own city and the history of our national hero. There's exactly zero evidence that he's not Albanian. Until that is provided, which it won't, he should be identified as Albanian. 140.147.2.1 ( talk) 16:22, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
Hey @ Βατο, hope you are well. Could you please share the quote from Hamp regarding the /dh/ > /ll/ shift which occurs in NW Geg? Would be interesting to read. In my opinion, it is worth also mentioning Zamputi's theory, especially since the Leti farefis did exist around Shkodra during this period. And a compound isn't exactly unplausible. What do you think of about this?
According to the Albanian historian Injac Zamputi, Barleti may in fact reflect a compound of the Albanian anthroponyms Bardh and Leti (compare Bargjini, from Bardh Gjini).
Can change it around of course. Lezhjani1444 ( talk) 20:58, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
So I began with *øblu or *ablu, or *a¤b(V)lu-, which I had already arrived at, and reconstructed in reverse, to see what I got. With the last of these, by applying rules for Albanian (which I had partly developed), I reached a modern Geg form vollë. Actually, the modern Tosk form vadhëz was already available in Giordano's dictionary of Arbëresh (italo-Albanian), but I did not know it, or that it was there."
The fluctuation between [ł] <ll> and ð <dh> is dialectal (almost interpersonal) but lautgesetzlich in North Geg, and they are phonetically very close. Remember that most spoken Albanian has [ʎ] or even [l] for <l>; earlier Albanian had three laterals ł, ľ, ʎ, but no clear l (see Hamp FS Aronson 2002). The fluctuation of ll and dh in North Geg is recognized (inconsistently in a few dictionaries) and well known (by some experts), but badly and naïvely heard (by many ears), naïvely and negligently treated (by phoneticians), never systematically explored by the Fach, left with too little time by the alert (myself included). We therefore do not have exact definition for this (moderately ancient) known fact; it will cost difficult and diligent, yet finite, roaming and listening – human articulation and hearing."
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Perhaps the image is a tad too big. I uploaded it that way because I wanted the letters to be visible, but perhaps I should upload a smaller version and link to the larger one. What do you think? ¬ Dori 22:36, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I think you should put him between Albanian writers, as he is in it.wikipedia. I would do it by myself, but I do not know how. Mormegil 3:10, Aug 20, 2006 (GMT)
The fact that modern Albania honours Barleti as national writer does not make Barleti an Albanian. It is customary to small nations with limited history to claim locally born people as its nationals. Compare this to the attempt of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (or just Macedonia) to claim Alexander the Great. Kentavros ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:50, 16 January 2009 (UTC).
This work says that Marin Barleti was probably of Italian origin:
...was a native of Scutari (Shkoder) in Albania, and perhaps of Italian origin.
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |year=
(
help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help)Kenneth Setton was an expert on the history of medieval Europe who received the Haskins Medal of the Medieval Academy of America and John Frederick Lewis Prize of the Philosophical Society for this work.
I propose to add this information about Barleti's possible Italian origin to the text of the article. Anyone objects?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 14:28, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Can I just get this clear? So some American scholar makes a cursory claim (based on what who knows?) that Marin Barleti was "perhaps of Italian origin" and this is supposed to be taken as authoritative? Not the opinion of the people to which Barleti belongs and of whom he speaks, who have carried the history of centuries. Don't you think scholarship from Shkodra need be consulted? This is what happens when foreigners write your history for you; they decide how to tell it and in their terms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.150.48.208 ( talk) 03:58, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
(unindent)That's not a quote from Setton himself and the only thing written by Setton himself is the part of the index(Marinus Barletius, Albanian historian). That being said some other source except for a small part that wasn't even written by Setton by himself should be brought by Antid. (i.e extraordinary claims need extraordinary sources).-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:44, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)Then why can't Italian be used as demonym and vice-versa? Don't OR i.e please don't bring this up again unless there are sources.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)The first was written in 1538 i.e your original source is the 1538 work that used the phrase Scodrense and the second isn't written by a historian but by someone whose work focused on Neo-Latin. It's important to use sources that have some kind of authority on the subject(there was a similar discussion recently on Zeibekiko). In the above sentence he says that the Ottoman conquest was consolidated in 1478, which is far from being precise or correct since most of the country had already been conquered long before the fall of the last free city Shkodër, but that doesn't make him unreliable, because he's not a historian dealing with medieval Albania, but a linguist that merely mentioned the incident.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 00:01, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
The only Italian chronicler of his day to whose work Spandounes makes specific reference by name is Marino 'Scodrense', or Marinus Barletius.
Look Antid&Zjarri, the reason why Setton (and other possible similar works) contradicts on Barleti, is that Barleti wasn't the subject of study for Setton (or Nicol) and that's why he is not in the body of their works but on their footnotes. They merely dedicate a short sentence to him, while the Italians above were actually writing some pages on him, because he was part of the study in that case. I can bring hundreds of sources claiming in short sentences that he was an Albanian, but I am not doing it. I prefer to go after his biographers, the persons who actually made him a subject of interest. What actually do they claim? That is the way to go with articles on biographies. Just for others courtesy I am trying to find articles in English (possibly online) about him, otherwise I will use monographs dedicated to him in Albanian language. There are some works on him in Albanian. just as this one Aigest ( talk) 09:07, 4 June 2011 (UTC) P.S. in case you didn't understand why I brought that source is that what experts on Italian language actually claim is that "those (historians) who try to link Barleti (Italian) origin with the city of Barleta based on his surname Barleti, are wrong because that surname Barleti does not come from Italian but from Albanian Bardheci = (Eng) White." That is more relevant than just short sentences (and what you think). Aigest ( talk) 09:15, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
That is something interesting and very informative. It should be inserted in the article Aigest ( talk) 07:44, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone know the origin of the photo used in the infobox? (File:MarinBarleti.jpg). Is it authentic or an artist rendering? Rereward ( talk) 08:19, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Qenim edit warred ( diff) to boldly:
Some schollars... assume Barleti was such settler from Italy. On the other hand most Albanian scholars assert that Barleti was Albanian in every sense.- Important note: this work is published in Albania, in Tirana, by Onufri Publishing house.
Taken in consideration that above edit is clearly based on source misinterpretation and racist arguments it will be undone.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 18:54, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
There are many sources that confirm that "The History of Skanderbeg" was first published in 1480 in Venice and later in the Vatican and Rome. The question is: If it was published in 1480 and "Siege of Scodra" in 1504, it seems to be the first work and not the second? Bes-ART Talk 16:22, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
scholars variously assert that he was of Italian ( DuCange, Iorga), Dalmatian ( Giovio, Czwittinger, Fabricius), or Albanian ( Zeno, Fallmerayer, Jireček) ethnic originSource: Francesco Pall (1938), Marino Barlezio: uno storico umanista (no page)
Che Barlezio fosse un Italiano, ci monstrano la sua cultura, i suoi sentimenti, cosi comme essi appaiono dagli scritti, specialmente da un passo della Storia di Scanderbeg, dicendo, sebbene per bocca del condottiero Jacopo Piccinino, che i Francesi sono superbi e hanno un odio innato per gli Italiani, dei quali vogliono rendersi padroni per servirsene di giumento.[That Barlezio was an Italian, it is showed to us by his culture, his feelings, as they appear from the writings, especially from a passage in the History of Scanderbeg, saying, although through the words of the condottiere Jacopo Piccinino, that the French are proud and have a innate hatred for the Italians, of whom they want to make themselves masters in order to use them as a mare.] But all that Du Cange writes is that Barleti wrote in Italian and Giovio's entry is not about Marin Barleti. Pall (1938) recognizes in pp. 142- 143 that Giovio's entry and others (Czwittinger, Fabricius) are not about Barleti.
Pall believed that Barleti was not Albanian, but Italian, a view that was naturally rejected by Albanian scholars. The discussion is obviously wrapped up in recent battles over the legitimacy of the Albanian state, and Pall wrote during the period when Mussolini was in the process of involving Albania in his empire.
References
How is it possible that the most important Albanian historian, at least from the perspective of our history, is not identified as such in the wikipedia article? Marin is an Albanian name. He wrote about the siege of his own city and the history of our national hero. There's exactly zero evidence that he's not Albanian. Until that is provided, which it won't, he should be identified as Albanian. 140.147.2.1 ( talk) 16:22, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
Hey @ Βατο, hope you are well. Could you please share the quote from Hamp regarding the /dh/ > /ll/ shift which occurs in NW Geg? Would be interesting to read. In my opinion, it is worth also mentioning Zamputi's theory, especially since the Leti farefis did exist around Shkodra during this period. And a compound isn't exactly unplausible. What do you think of about this?
According to the Albanian historian Injac Zamputi, Barleti may in fact reflect a compound of the Albanian anthroponyms Bardh and Leti (compare Bargjini, from Bardh Gjini).
Can change it around of course. Lezhjani1444 ( talk) 20:58, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
So I began with *øblu or *ablu, or *a¤b(V)lu-, which I had already arrived at, and reconstructed in reverse, to see what I got. With the last of these, by applying rules for Albanian (which I had partly developed), I reached a modern Geg form vollë. Actually, the modern Tosk form vadhëz was already available in Giordano's dictionary of Arbëresh (italo-Albanian), but I did not know it, or that it was there."
The fluctuation between [ł] <ll> and ð <dh> is dialectal (almost interpersonal) but lautgesetzlich in North Geg, and they are phonetically very close. Remember that most spoken Albanian has [ʎ] or even [l] for <l>; earlier Albanian had three laterals ł, ľ, ʎ, but no clear l (see Hamp FS Aronson 2002). The fluctuation of ll and dh in North Geg is recognized (inconsistently in a few dictionaries) and well known (by some experts), but badly and naïvely heard (by many ears), naïvely and negligently treated (by phoneticians), never systematically explored by the Fach, left with too little time by the alert (myself included). We therefore do not have exact definition for this (moderately ancient) known fact; it will cost difficult and diligent, yet finite, roaming and listening – human articulation and hearing."