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/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Luis_Elizondo My name is not Alexander Hamilton ( talk) 22:30, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
This edit must be restored according to policy:
Currently in section Luis_Elizondo#Office_of_the_Under_Secretary_of_Defense_for_Intelligence:
Change that to:
There are already several confused Wikipedians who are conflating topics. My edit request is for this EXTREMELY specific granular change. The Pentagon unambiguously confirmed Elizondo's Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence involvement.
That explicit change should be restored. There is no disputing whatsoever that subject worked at and/or for the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence in The Pentagon. The same source quotes a DOD spokesperson who says so, and then that same source is incredibly cited to say that the subject "claimed" to have worked there. So Elizondo "claimed" to work somewhere where the DOD confirmed he worked there... why are we saying "claimed" and presenting this WP:BLP subject as a liar? If you have a Wikipedia article about you and say, "I worked for Wikpedia," and then Wikipedia posts a statement saying you did in fact work for Wikipedia... is it appropriate for Wikipedia to put any conditional on the fact you worked there?
Per Wikipedia:Edit_requests#Planning_a_request:
There is nothing in any universe controversial about saying Elizondo worked there as my "diff" link here changed. To dispute that is to insert non-neutral bias and violates WP:BLP. Per Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Challenged_or_likely_to_be_challenged, which apparently has binding authority on anyone reading these words:
No actual dispute exists anywhere whether or not Elizondo worked at or for the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence in The Pentagon. No legitimate source says he "claimed to", and any source would be fringe/have no standing to outrank the Pentagon's own public human resources statement. The Pentagon says he did--and they did--then that as a primary source supersedes literally everything on that topic.
Please restore what is in that edit. As this is a BLP violation and indisputable consensus is NOT required per binding authoritative policy. My name is not Alexander Hamilton ( talk) 23:49, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
This should surely shift the NPOV stance. No. Firstly, being professional politicians, United States Senators are hardly reliable sources for...well, pretty much anything. That Robert Bigelow was a close associate of Reid certainly does not improve the latter's credibility, especially with regards to fringe topics like UFOs. Secondly, if any editor can find reliable, secondary sources (per WP:RS, WP:FRIND, etc.) that are independent of Elizondo's own claims in interviews, then please present them. Elizondo first claimed to be the Director (capital D) in 2017. If he truly was the Director, by now there should be many such sources. So where are they? Thirdly, the lede includes two reliable sources that question Elizondo's claim, with the Washington Spectator source ( here) presenting a particularly compelling and thorough analysis (see the sidebar at the bottom of the article). At best, the reliable sources indicate that Elizondo's claim is suspect. JoJo Anthrax ( talk) 15:19, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
Do we really need to have that dispute tag? They are so annoying right in the face of the person reading the page and they are never specific enough for people to understand what is the problem. They would have to read though the talk page to possible understand and even still they aren't sure the dispute is about what is on the talk page. I don't want to remove something that someone else seems confident about. Even I'm not sure that the dispute is about the conversation over the word "claimed" or if it's about something else. Sgerbic ( talk) 04:32, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
Now that the disruption has settled (and putting aside the "was he or wasn't he AATIP director" issue for the moment) I've been looking at how the article could be improved. Elizondo has expressed a number of fringe views in the media, so I don't think there's any dispute that some critical analysis is needed to temper the extraordinary and WP:SENSATIONAL WP:FRINGE claims - e.g. aliens, UFOs, government conspiracies, other dimensional beings, etc.
The present criticism section is a mixed bag. Colavito, Kloor, and Lewis-Kraus might be retained and improved. In my opinion, the Helene Cooper piece is more about Cooper's feelings (I trust him, I don't trust him, oh I just don't know) than analysis of Elizondo's claims, e.g. he likes to sit with his back to a wall is a cute observation, but this kind of stuff doesn't add anything to his bio. There may be a place outside of the criticism section for a detail or two from the Cooper interview, but I'm not sure where.
Here's some sources that could be used for actual critical analysis [2], [3], [4], [5]
And of course we should mention he's landed a big book deal: [6]. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 13:02, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
Why is his work with AATIP being questioned? The latter from Harry Reid confirming not only his involvement but his involvement at a leadership level within AATIP should superseded both the Intercept article and the Pentagon. DarrellWinkler ( talk) 15:50, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
I realize this has been argued to death above, but I dont think that argument was done in good faith. I also think at this point this is a WP:BLP issue as the overwhelming majority of all reliable sources (including the form Senate Majority leader who started the program) state Elizondo was the Director of AATIP but the article is using one source to claim otherwise. Im going to take this over to the BLP board. DarrellWinkler ( talk) 16:33, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Elizondo was born in Texas not Florida. He has tried to fix this issue but your moronic group that is going around making pages and "fixing" things you don't like on everything you feel is pseudoscience won't let it happen. You guys don't know everything. You are not always right. You took pictures at the mall for god's sake. Capstonecomplaints ( talk) 20:57, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Born in Miami, Luis Elizondo IV moved to Sarasota around 1975. That’s when his father, Luis Elizondo III, a food and beverage manager, helped open the Hyatt hotel in Sarasota.. It's not something that Wikipedia editors randomly made up. If you can find sources that contract this please cite them. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 21:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Elizondo was born in Texas not Florida.
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Luis Elizondo article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article was nominated for deletion on 7 May 2020. The result of the discussion was redirect. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article has been
mentioned by a media organization:
|
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to
pseudoscience and
fringe science, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Luis_Elizondo My name is not Alexander Hamilton ( talk) 22:30, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
This edit must be restored according to policy:
Currently in section Luis_Elizondo#Office_of_the_Under_Secretary_of_Defense_for_Intelligence:
Change that to:
There are already several confused Wikipedians who are conflating topics. My edit request is for this EXTREMELY specific granular change. The Pentagon unambiguously confirmed Elizondo's Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence involvement.
That explicit change should be restored. There is no disputing whatsoever that subject worked at and/or for the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence in The Pentagon. The same source quotes a DOD spokesperson who says so, and then that same source is incredibly cited to say that the subject "claimed" to have worked there. So Elizondo "claimed" to work somewhere where the DOD confirmed he worked there... why are we saying "claimed" and presenting this WP:BLP subject as a liar? If you have a Wikipedia article about you and say, "I worked for Wikpedia," and then Wikipedia posts a statement saying you did in fact work for Wikipedia... is it appropriate for Wikipedia to put any conditional on the fact you worked there?
Per Wikipedia:Edit_requests#Planning_a_request:
There is nothing in any universe controversial about saying Elizondo worked there as my "diff" link here changed. To dispute that is to insert non-neutral bias and violates WP:BLP. Per Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Challenged_or_likely_to_be_challenged, which apparently has binding authority on anyone reading these words:
No actual dispute exists anywhere whether or not Elizondo worked at or for the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence in The Pentagon. No legitimate source says he "claimed to", and any source would be fringe/have no standing to outrank the Pentagon's own public human resources statement. The Pentagon says he did--and they did--then that as a primary source supersedes literally everything on that topic.
Please restore what is in that edit. As this is a BLP violation and indisputable consensus is NOT required per binding authoritative policy. My name is not Alexander Hamilton ( talk) 23:49, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
This should surely shift the NPOV stance. No. Firstly, being professional politicians, United States Senators are hardly reliable sources for...well, pretty much anything. That Robert Bigelow was a close associate of Reid certainly does not improve the latter's credibility, especially with regards to fringe topics like UFOs. Secondly, if any editor can find reliable, secondary sources (per WP:RS, WP:FRIND, etc.) that are independent of Elizondo's own claims in interviews, then please present them. Elizondo first claimed to be the Director (capital D) in 2017. If he truly was the Director, by now there should be many such sources. So where are they? Thirdly, the lede includes two reliable sources that question Elizondo's claim, with the Washington Spectator source ( here) presenting a particularly compelling and thorough analysis (see the sidebar at the bottom of the article). At best, the reliable sources indicate that Elizondo's claim is suspect. JoJo Anthrax ( talk) 15:19, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
Do we really need to have that dispute tag? They are so annoying right in the face of the person reading the page and they are never specific enough for people to understand what is the problem. They would have to read though the talk page to possible understand and even still they aren't sure the dispute is about what is on the talk page. I don't want to remove something that someone else seems confident about. Even I'm not sure that the dispute is about the conversation over the word "claimed" or if it's about something else. Sgerbic ( talk) 04:32, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
Now that the disruption has settled (and putting aside the "was he or wasn't he AATIP director" issue for the moment) I've been looking at how the article could be improved. Elizondo has expressed a number of fringe views in the media, so I don't think there's any dispute that some critical analysis is needed to temper the extraordinary and WP:SENSATIONAL WP:FRINGE claims - e.g. aliens, UFOs, government conspiracies, other dimensional beings, etc.
The present criticism section is a mixed bag. Colavito, Kloor, and Lewis-Kraus might be retained and improved. In my opinion, the Helene Cooper piece is more about Cooper's feelings (I trust him, I don't trust him, oh I just don't know) than analysis of Elizondo's claims, e.g. he likes to sit with his back to a wall is a cute observation, but this kind of stuff doesn't add anything to his bio. There may be a place outside of the criticism section for a detail or two from the Cooper interview, but I'm not sure where.
Here's some sources that could be used for actual critical analysis [2], [3], [4], [5]
And of course we should mention he's landed a big book deal: [6]. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 13:02, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
Why is his work with AATIP being questioned? The latter from Harry Reid confirming not only his involvement but his involvement at a leadership level within AATIP should superseded both the Intercept article and the Pentagon. DarrellWinkler ( talk) 15:50, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
I realize this has been argued to death above, but I dont think that argument was done in good faith. I also think at this point this is a WP:BLP issue as the overwhelming majority of all reliable sources (including the form Senate Majority leader who started the program) state Elizondo was the Director of AATIP but the article is using one source to claim otherwise. Im going to take this over to the BLP board. DarrellWinkler ( talk) 16:33, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Elizondo was born in Texas not Florida. He has tried to fix this issue but your moronic group that is going around making pages and "fixing" things you don't like on everything you feel is pseudoscience won't let it happen. You guys don't know everything. You are not always right. You took pictures at the mall for god's sake. Capstonecomplaints ( talk) 20:57, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Born in Miami, Luis Elizondo IV moved to Sarasota around 1975. That’s when his father, Luis Elizondo III, a food and beverage manager, helped open the Hyatt hotel in Sarasota.. It's not something that Wikipedia editors randomly made up. If you can find sources that contract this please cite them. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 21:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Elizondo was born in Texas not Florida.