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This was never meant to be a book about Black Metal as a genre. Hence the title "The Bloody Rise of the Satanic Metal Underground". It is about the violence, people and the ideals or lack thereof surrounding Black Metal and not the development of the music itself. There is very little information about the development of BM as a musical genre, although, it is not for wiki to say Moynihan should have filled this void. Also, in this article the line "...it completely omits the developments of melodic black metal and melodic death metal that were well under way when book was first published..." is irrelevant, given that the book is not concerned (and was never made out to be) with BM as a genre as such. Excepting, maybe, the impacts on the genre made by certain events invloving participants in the BM scene. The article could include something about the statements made by Vark Vikernes concerning misinformation in LoC. These statements used to be on the old Burzum website www.burzum.com (now closed). I dont know if/where they are still available. PyrE 13:09, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
What do you think? I think better information can be gained by reading wikipedia than can be gained from reading this book. As a metalhead, I have the feeling that Moynihan is an outsider writing about something he doesn't really understand. Maybe he is catering to people who aren't familiar with metal, but it's to the detriment of the book's accuracy. I think he misses the point of some bands and even gets some information wrong. For example, he states "the Misfits mutated into Samhain...by 1988 the band had changed names again, to simply Danzig", which is totally false. The Misfits ended when Glenn Danzig left the band and formed Samhain, which later became Danzig. Furthermore, the Misfits reunited (without Danzig) in 1997, meaning that Danzig and The Misfits existed as separate bands at the time of the book's printing. Its one of many sloppy errors/hasty summaries in the book that make it frustrating to read.
I personally feel that this book has little information about black metal as music and is, (as is pointed out above) more about the crimes, specifically Varg Vikernes. I think we should perhaps point out that this book shows little grasp or interest in black metal as a genre.
I agree Jmm6f488 08:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
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I find this rather impolite, not to say annoying. There I spend hours writing this article, and then User:Cyrus XIII just tags it "disputed" and doesn't even take the 10 minutes to specify that on this talk page. Wikipedia:NPOV dispute clearly states: The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies. This is a controversial topic, and I can assure that I strongly oppose Moynihans extreme right perspective. I had originally indented to go through with this controversy, but if other editors don't even specify their concerns, this is fruitless. Seriously, I don't see what the concern of User:Cyrus XIII is. Zara1709 12:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Again, Cyrus XIII, I have to ask whether you have actually read the book. There obviously is a "not so hidden subcurrent" of right-wing extremism in there. This is not the opinion of some of the reviewers, but an accurate description of its contents. Here are two more quotes from Lords of Chaos (1998):
The reason Neopaganism isn't even mentioned in the article currently is that the quote on this was removed:
""Satanism and the heathenism from which it ultimately descends are themselves the products of the archetypes and differentiated psyches of nations and peoples, and they therefore spring from the same “occult” or mystical sources as nationalism itself. Nationalism is the political manifestation of a folk’s unconscious; heathenism/Satanism is the spiritual manifestation." (p. 329&330) Zara1709 19:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to point out that the above quote about Tom Araya is being taken entirely out of context. This quote comes in the context of accusations that the band Slayer have far right or neo-Nazi sympathies and it is intended to refute those allegations. It also references a (quoted) joke made by Aryana himself in which he suggested that members of the far right tend to misread his name and take him for an Aryan when in fact he is of a Hispanic background. To use this quote as evidence of a far right leaning in the book (which I don't personally dispute it has, of a kind at least) is to stretch the case. V stephen ( talk) 16:16, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
This is seems to be the opening version favored by Cyrus:
Lords of Chaos: The Bloody Rise of the Satanic Metal Underground is a book by Michael Moynihan and Didrik Søderlind. It gives a history of the early Norwegian Black Metal scene, with a focus on the string of church burnings and murders that occurred in the country around 1993. The book has been criticized for its approach towards its controversial subject matter and the political leanings of author Moynihan.
This seems to be the opening version favored by Zara1709:
Lords of Chaos: The Bloody Rise of the Satanic Metal Underground is a book by Michael Moynihan and Didrik Søderlind. It gives a history of the early Norwegian Black Metal scene, with a focus on the string of church burnings and murders that occurred in the country around 1993. Moynihan's "fusion of politics and aesthetic violence shapes a not-so-hidden sub current that runs throughout [the book]"
I bolded the difference between the two. I think if we go paragraph by paragraph like this, with everyone explaining there reasoning we can come to an agreement over wording that would be acceptable to everyone. Jmm6f488 20:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
(←) Again, it is not up to you to determine whether the book supports right-wing ideologies or just depicts them. Cherry-picking quotes to fuel your POV and subsequently misrepresenting sources like the review by Die Tageszeitung (which actually recommends the read and merely uses the poison cabinet metaphor as a catchy opener), does hardly strengthen your position, neither do knee-jerk reverts that re-insert uncited information ( WP:V), badly formatted and redundant citations ( WP:CS) and excessive external linking ( WP:EL/ WP:NOT). On top of that, censorship concerns may very well arise with regards to your removal of vital information, such as positive press reactions towards the publication and the announcement that it will spawn a motion picture. - Cyrus XIII 12:42, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Zara1709 13:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I am perfectly aware of a certain ambiguity within that Old Testament remark, but I'll rather leave it to readers to interpret it ( WP:OR).
- Cyrus XIII 14:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
You both speak German so here is the Wikipedia page in German maybe it can give you some hints. I would help but you would have to translate the entire page for me ;) :
Das Buch Lords of Chaos ( englische Ausgabe ISBN 0-922915-48-2; deutsche Ausgabe ISBN 3-936878-00-5) erzählt die Geschichte der okkulten Rockmusik mit Schwerpunkt auf Black Metal. Die Autoren sind Michael Moynihan von der Band „ Blood Axis“ und Didrik Søderlind, Journalist der Zeitschrift „ Playboy“ in Norwegen. Das Buch erschien erstmals 1998 in englischer Sprache, 2003 wurde die deutsche Ausgabe veröffentlicht. Analog zum erscheinen der deutschen Version erschien ein CD-Sampler mit Liedern der im Buch erwähnten Künstler.
„Lords of Chaos“ ist knapp 400 Seiten stark und enthält viele Gespräche mit unter anderem Hendrik Möbus, Varg Vikernes oder Ihsahn. Es werden die Geschehnisse um die Kirchenbrände bzw. die Morde in den frühen 90er Jahren, welche die Black-Metal-Szene in die Schlagzeilen brachten, beleuchtet. Weiterhin gibt das Buch Auskunft über den Einfluss von Okkultismus und Satanismus auf Rock- und Metal-Musik.
Es wurde beim Erscheinen sehr kontrovers diskutiert, sowohl in der deutschen Presse als auch in szenespezifischen Zeitschriften. Dies hängt unter anderem mit den Verstrickungen von Michael Moynihan in die rechte bis rechtsextremistische Szene zusammen. Auch die teilweise deutliche Bewunderung des Autors für seine Gesprächspartner tat ihr Übriges dazu, eine Kontroverse zu entfachen.
Die Compilation umfasst, neben den im Buch genannten Bands der norwegischen und schwedischen Black-Metal-Szene, mehrere Künstler aus dem okkultistischen und satanistischen Umfeld, wie Aleister Crowley und Anton Szandor LaVey. Auch Vertreter, die das Okkulte eher am Rande streifen, wie Robert Johnson, wurden aufgenommen.
Weblinks
Jmm6f488 14:14, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
PS. I do know enough German to know what Kontroverse means in the article, so maybe this article can give a good approach. Jmm6f488 14:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Let me provide another quote from the book:
"The signs of Christianity's influence on western culture are everywhere. God is regularly invoked in the speeches of the politicians, and references to his name flow throughout the streams of secular society. God is impossible to avoid. It is thus not surprising that those who proclaim themselves "fists in the face of God" (to borrow a phrase from Fenriz of Darkthrone), would end up attacking society as a whole. It is also in their desire to crush Christianity they should adopt faith - real or symbolic- in other deities and demons. Spirituality is innate to the human psyche, and has a way of rearing its head even in the most rational and atheistic people. The same person who rids himself of one theology may well harbor a desire for a new faith - one full of mighty and unforgiving gods, capable of smashing away the ruins of the old. Black Metal provides all of this. Whether it is centered on Satanic or heathen symbolism matter not. In both instances the iconography and the music fuse together into an odium theologicum directed at the faith and lifestyle of the status quo. It is essentially intolerant, uncompromising, and absolutist in its worldview." (Lords of Chaos, First edition, p.301)
Now, I will paraphrase this and add it to the article. That the book includes this statement is fact and can't possible be POV. Whereas I get the impression that Moynihan himself desires to crush Christianity, this would not go into the article, but that he interprets Black Metal as "essentially intolerant, uncompromising, and absolutist in its worldview" has to go in there. And don't tell me that this is prohibited by wp:neutrality. Zara1709 14:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I still can't accept it that some of my previous work was deleted, without me being given to opportunity to respond to the concerns. Flag it with [ original research?] or [ citation needed], but don't delete it. But it guess if have to. Thus I am forced to spend several more hours on on this, restoring the deleted parts and writing in an even more neutral tone. I will go paragraph by paragraph, so that there is enough time to take every singe sentence to the talk page: 1) The first thing it did was to add the mentioning of "heathenism" back in that had been removed with the one quote previously and to reassess this article for Wikipedia:WikiProject Neopaganism. This time I assessed it low- instead of mid-importance. This book is the best example I know that connects Neopaganism (or "heathenism") with right-wing ideology. Zara1709 01:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot 11:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Uh, what the hell is wrong with the references on the bottom of the page? Right now none of the links to references even work on the page. Someone needs to fix that. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 17:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I think the class of this article is above start class now. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 23:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
user:Bloodofox has given me two reverts so far... so I think it is appropriate to expect an escalation into a full out edit war: First, wp:NPOV would mandate the inclusion of Hellhammers comment: "I don’t give a crap if the fans are white, black, green, yellow, or blue. For me music and politics don’t go hand in hand."( ThyDoom.com) since this is contrary to the interview in LoC. If you need a quote; NPOV means: "The inclusion of all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." We have here a situation in which a book reports someone to have made an racist statement. the very same person has later made an anti-racist statement. This is significant, and I don't see why this should be original research: Similarly, if I have person A who has a certain theory and Person B, who has a similar theory it is not OR to state this. It is not OR to state that Moynihan has a similar idea of the collective unconscious to that of Serrano, especially if I have a source that says: "Moynihan has found resonance with selected elements of ideas espoused by fanatics ... (long list of them) ... and Miguel Serrano." Do you want to say that it is original research to say that Moynihan has taken elements of ideas from Serrano? I was going to rework that anyway, but I don't want to have another edit war at this stupid article. Zara1709 ( talk) 01:18, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
- Similar to Miguel Serrano<ref>For Serrano, see: Goodrick-Clarke, Black Sun, p. 179; That Moynihan is attracted to the works of Miguel Serrano is mentioned in Gardell, Gods of the Blood, p.303</ref> and other proponents of Esoteric Nazism, he links archetypes and the collective unconscious to occult or mystical sources:
- The satanic metal biography, Lords of Chaos, which has been criticized for inaccurate information and statements, quotes Jan Axel Blomberg (Hellhammer) as saying, "I'll put it this way, we don't like black people here. Black metal is for white people. … I'm pretty convinced that there are differences between races as well as everything else. I think that like animals, some races are more…you know, like a cat is much more intelligent than a bird or a cow, or even a dog, and I think that's also the case with different races." Contradicting these racial statements, Blomberg said in a 2004 interview, "I don’t give a crap if the fans are white, black, green, yellow, or blue. For me music and politics don’t go hand in hand."[20].
- Q: And finally the last question: A couple of days ago I came across an article dwelling up on the racial question in connection with Extreme Metal. The author came to the conclusion that the metal world is for the whites only; thus, it is inherently superior to ethnic minorities and he also states that they, meaning the minorities, are initially classified as inferior both musically and racially. Now, thinking about the present day scenes, do you share that opinion; that is do you believe that metal is superior to any other genre? And another question is how do you feel about non-white fans of black metal, for example?
- A: "As long as the music is good I don’t think any genre of music is superior to another. I don’t give a crap if the fans are white, black green yellow or blue. For me music and politics don’t go hand in hand."
- Pragmatically oriented, Moynihan has found resonance with selected elements of ideas espoused by fanatics and revolutionaries involved in divergent extreme milieus, as reflected in his attraction to Charles Manson, Mu'ammar al-Qadhdhafi, Michael Bakunin, Julius Evola, James Mason, and Miguel Serrano.
- In Lords of Chaos, Hellhammer is quoted as saying "..." In 2004, when asked "..." he responded with "...."
"LOC is best characterized as a palimpsest with the author's own political ideology at work just’ below the surface of a text ostensibly devoted solely to analyzing an extremist musical sub-culture." The current revision of the article brings this in only as the Critique of Kevin Cogan, whereas it is in fact an accurate summary of the book. Zara1709 ( talk) 07:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't know about "nefarious", but this is obviously a report biased in favour of its object. I mean, how biased do you need to be to turn a depressing crime rampage of a handful of misfit youths into a "Bloody Rise of the Satanic Metal Underground"? There is only so much debate in this. Bloodofox has used the same tactics at Talk:Michael Moynihan (journalist). The result is an article riddled with footnotes and the occasional "he denied all allegations", but the attentive reader will still get the picture. It is probably too much to ask boo for cooperation sufficient to turn this into anything resembling coherent prose, but the information is all in there. dab (𒁳) 12:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I saw this sentence in reference to a newer interview done with Hellhammer (after he came out against the book in an earlier interview and said he didn't care about the color of fans): "However, in a newer one done in 2007, he said he still stands behind his former statement "that black metal was only for white people and that in Norway people didn't like negroes."[25]" but I'm not sure it should even be used. Read the context. Then read the actual interview. The whole thing is done in a very tongue-in-cheek manner, like Hellhammer and the interviewer were messing around. In fact, during the interview Hellhammer even seems to come off as pro-gay or at least not having a problem with gay people whatsoever. If this statement is left in, I think it should be changed to reflect the tone of the interview at the very least. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 03:23, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 ( talk) 12:36, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
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This was never meant to be a book about Black Metal as a genre. Hence the title "The Bloody Rise of the Satanic Metal Underground". It is about the violence, people and the ideals or lack thereof surrounding Black Metal and not the development of the music itself. There is very little information about the development of BM as a musical genre, although, it is not for wiki to say Moynihan should have filled this void. Also, in this article the line "...it completely omits the developments of melodic black metal and melodic death metal that were well under way when book was first published..." is irrelevant, given that the book is not concerned (and was never made out to be) with BM as a genre as such. Excepting, maybe, the impacts on the genre made by certain events invloving participants in the BM scene. The article could include something about the statements made by Vark Vikernes concerning misinformation in LoC. These statements used to be on the old Burzum website www.burzum.com (now closed). I dont know if/where they are still available. PyrE 13:09, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
What do you think? I think better information can be gained by reading wikipedia than can be gained from reading this book. As a metalhead, I have the feeling that Moynihan is an outsider writing about something he doesn't really understand. Maybe he is catering to people who aren't familiar with metal, but it's to the detriment of the book's accuracy. I think he misses the point of some bands and even gets some information wrong. For example, he states "the Misfits mutated into Samhain...by 1988 the band had changed names again, to simply Danzig", which is totally false. The Misfits ended when Glenn Danzig left the band and formed Samhain, which later became Danzig. Furthermore, the Misfits reunited (without Danzig) in 1997, meaning that Danzig and The Misfits existed as separate bands at the time of the book's printing. Its one of many sloppy errors/hasty summaries in the book that make it frustrating to read.
I personally feel that this book has little information about black metal as music and is, (as is pointed out above) more about the crimes, specifically Varg Vikernes. I think we should perhaps point out that this book shows little grasp or interest in black metal as a genre.
I agree Jmm6f488 08:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
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I find this rather impolite, not to say annoying. There I spend hours writing this article, and then User:Cyrus XIII just tags it "disputed" and doesn't even take the 10 minutes to specify that on this talk page. Wikipedia:NPOV dispute clearly states: The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies. This is a controversial topic, and I can assure that I strongly oppose Moynihans extreme right perspective. I had originally indented to go through with this controversy, but if other editors don't even specify their concerns, this is fruitless. Seriously, I don't see what the concern of User:Cyrus XIII is. Zara1709 12:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Again, Cyrus XIII, I have to ask whether you have actually read the book. There obviously is a "not so hidden subcurrent" of right-wing extremism in there. This is not the opinion of some of the reviewers, but an accurate description of its contents. Here are two more quotes from Lords of Chaos (1998):
The reason Neopaganism isn't even mentioned in the article currently is that the quote on this was removed:
""Satanism and the heathenism from which it ultimately descends are themselves the products of the archetypes and differentiated psyches of nations and peoples, and they therefore spring from the same “occult” or mystical sources as nationalism itself. Nationalism is the political manifestation of a folk’s unconscious; heathenism/Satanism is the spiritual manifestation." (p. 329&330) Zara1709 19:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to point out that the above quote about Tom Araya is being taken entirely out of context. This quote comes in the context of accusations that the band Slayer have far right or neo-Nazi sympathies and it is intended to refute those allegations. It also references a (quoted) joke made by Aryana himself in which he suggested that members of the far right tend to misread his name and take him for an Aryan when in fact he is of a Hispanic background. To use this quote as evidence of a far right leaning in the book (which I don't personally dispute it has, of a kind at least) is to stretch the case. V stephen ( talk) 16:16, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
This is seems to be the opening version favored by Cyrus:
Lords of Chaos: The Bloody Rise of the Satanic Metal Underground is a book by Michael Moynihan and Didrik Søderlind. It gives a history of the early Norwegian Black Metal scene, with a focus on the string of church burnings and murders that occurred in the country around 1993. The book has been criticized for its approach towards its controversial subject matter and the political leanings of author Moynihan.
This seems to be the opening version favored by Zara1709:
Lords of Chaos: The Bloody Rise of the Satanic Metal Underground is a book by Michael Moynihan and Didrik Søderlind. It gives a history of the early Norwegian Black Metal scene, with a focus on the string of church burnings and murders that occurred in the country around 1993. Moynihan's "fusion of politics and aesthetic violence shapes a not-so-hidden sub current that runs throughout [the book]"
I bolded the difference between the two. I think if we go paragraph by paragraph like this, with everyone explaining there reasoning we can come to an agreement over wording that would be acceptable to everyone. Jmm6f488 20:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
(←) Again, it is not up to you to determine whether the book supports right-wing ideologies or just depicts them. Cherry-picking quotes to fuel your POV and subsequently misrepresenting sources like the review by Die Tageszeitung (which actually recommends the read and merely uses the poison cabinet metaphor as a catchy opener), does hardly strengthen your position, neither do knee-jerk reverts that re-insert uncited information ( WP:V), badly formatted and redundant citations ( WP:CS) and excessive external linking ( WP:EL/ WP:NOT). On top of that, censorship concerns may very well arise with regards to your removal of vital information, such as positive press reactions towards the publication and the announcement that it will spawn a motion picture. - Cyrus XIII 12:42, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Zara1709 13:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I am perfectly aware of a certain ambiguity within that Old Testament remark, but I'll rather leave it to readers to interpret it ( WP:OR).
- Cyrus XIII 14:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
You both speak German so here is the Wikipedia page in German maybe it can give you some hints. I would help but you would have to translate the entire page for me ;) :
Das Buch Lords of Chaos ( englische Ausgabe ISBN 0-922915-48-2; deutsche Ausgabe ISBN 3-936878-00-5) erzählt die Geschichte der okkulten Rockmusik mit Schwerpunkt auf Black Metal. Die Autoren sind Michael Moynihan von der Band „ Blood Axis“ und Didrik Søderlind, Journalist der Zeitschrift „ Playboy“ in Norwegen. Das Buch erschien erstmals 1998 in englischer Sprache, 2003 wurde die deutsche Ausgabe veröffentlicht. Analog zum erscheinen der deutschen Version erschien ein CD-Sampler mit Liedern der im Buch erwähnten Künstler.
„Lords of Chaos“ ist knapp 400 Seiten stark und enthält viele Gespräche mit unter anderem Hendrik Möbus, Varg Vikernes oder Ihsahn. Es werden die Geschehnisse um die Kirchenbrände bzw. die Morde in den frühen 90er Jahren, welche die Black-Metal-Szene in die Schlagzeilen brachten, beleuchtet. Weiterhin gibt das Buch Auskunft über den Einfluss von Okkultismus und Satanismus auf Rock- und Metal-Musik.
Es wurde beim Erscheinen sehr kontrovers diskutiert, sowohl in der deutschen Presse als auch in szenespezifischen Zeitschriften. Dies hängt unter anderem mit den Verstrickungen von Michael Moynihan in die rechte bis rechtsextremistische Szene zusammen. Auch die teilweise deutliche Bewunderung des Autors für seine Gesprächspartner tat ihr Übriges dazu, eine Kontroverse zu entfachen.
Die Compilation umfasst, neben den im Buch genannten Bands der norwegischen und schwedischen Black-Metal-Szene, mehrere Künstler aus dem okkultistischen und satanistischen Umfeld, wie Aleister Crowley und Anton Szandor LaVey. Auch Vertreter, die das Okkulte eher am Rande streifen, wie Robert Johnson, wurden aufgenommen.
Weblinks
Jmm6f488 14:14, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
PS. I do know enough German to know what Kontroverse means in the article, so maybe this article can give a good approach. Jmm6f488 14:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Let me provide another quote from the book:
"The signs of Christianity's influence on western culture are everywhere. God is regularly invoked in the speeches of the politicians, and references to his name flow throughout the streams of secular society. God is impossible to avoid. It is thus not surprising that those who proclaim themselves "fists in the face of God" (to borrow a phrase from Fenriz of Darkthrone), would end up attacking society as a whole. It is also in their desire to crush Christianity they should adopt faith - real or symbolic- in other deities and demons. Spirituality is innate to the human psyche, and has a way of rearing its head even in the most rational and atheistic people. The same person who rids himself of one theology may well harbor a desire for a new faith - one full of mighty and unforgiving gods, capable of smashing away the ruins of the old. Black Metal provides all of this. Whether it is centered on Satanic or heathen symbolism matter not. In both instances the iconography and the music fuse together into an odium theologicum directed at the faith and lifestyle of the status quo. It is essentially intolerant, uncompromising, and absolutist in its worldview." (Lords of Chaos, First edition, p.301)
Now, I will paraphrase this and add it to the article. That the book includes this statement is fact and can't possible be POV. Whereas I get the impression that Moynihan himself desires to crush Christianity, this would not go into the article, but that he interprets Black Metal as "essentially intolerant, uncompromising, and absolutist in its worldview" has to go in there. And don't tell me that this is prohibited by wp:neutrality. Zara1709 14:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I still can't accept it that some of my previous work was deleted, without me being given to opportunity to respond to the concerns. Flag it with [ original research?] or [ citation needed], but don't delete it. But it guess if have to. Thus I am forced to spend several more hours on on this, restoring the deleted parts and writing in an even more neutral tone. I will go paragraph by paragraph, so that there is enough time to take every singe sentence to the talk page: 1) The first thing it did was to add the mentioning of "heathenism" back in that had been removed with the one quote previously and to reassess this article for Wikipedia:WikiProject Neopaganism. This time I assessed it low- instead of mid-importance. This book is the best example I know that connects Neopaganism (or "heathenism") with right-wing ideology. Zara1709 01:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot 11:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Uh, what the hell is wrong with the references on the bottom of the page? Right now none of the links to references even work on the page. Someone needs to fix that. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 17:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I think the class of this article is above start class now. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 23:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
user:Bloodofox has given me two reverts so far... so I think it is appropriate to expect an escalation into a full out edit war: First, wp:NPOV would mandate the inclusion of Hellhammers comment: "I don’t give a crap if the fans are white, black, green, yellow, or blue. For me music and politics don’t go hand in hand."( ThyDoom.com) since this is contrary to the interview in LoC. If you need a quote; NPOV means: "The inclusion of all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." We have here a situation in which a book reports someone to have made an racist statement. the very same person has later made an anti-racist statement. This is significant, and I don't see why this should be original research: Similarly, if I have person A who has a certain theory and Person B, who has a similar theory it is not OR to state this. It is not OR to state that Moynihan has a similar idea of the collective unconscious to that of Serrano, especially if I have a source that says: "Moynihan has found resonance with selected elements of ideas espoused by fanatics ... (long list of them) ... and Miguel Serrano." Do you want to say that it is original research to say that Moynihan has taken elements of ideas from Serrano? I was going to rework that anyway, but I don't want to have another edit war at this stupid article. Zara1709 ( talk) 01:18, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
- Similar to Miguel Serrano<ref>For Serrano, see: Goodrick-Clarke, Black Sun, p. 179; That Moynihan is attracted to the works of Miguel Serrano is mentioned in Gardell, Gods of the Blood, p.303</ref> and other proponents of Esoteric Nazism, he links archetypes and the collective unconscious to occult or mystical sources:
- The satanic metal biography, Lords of Chaos, which has been criticized for inaccurate information and statements, quotes Jan Axel Blomberg (Hellhammer) as saying, "I'll put it this way, we don't like black people here. Black metal is for white people. … I'm pretty convinced that there are differences between races as well as everything else. I think that like animals, some races are more…you know, like a cat is much more intelligent than a bird or a cow, or even a dog, and I think that's also the case with different races." Contradicting these racial statements, Blomberg said in a 2004 interview, "I don’t give a crap if the fans are white, black, green, yellow, or blue. For me music and politics don’t go hand in hand."[20].
- Q: And finally the last question: A couple of days ago I came across an article dwelling up on the racial question in connection with Extreme Metal. The author came to the conclusion that the metal world is for the whites only; thus, it is inherently superior to ethnic minorities and he also states that they, meaning the minorities, are initially classified as inferior both musically and racially. Now, thinking about the present day scenes, do you share that opinion; that is do you believe that metal is superior to any other genre? And another question is how do you feel about non-white fans of black metal, for example?
- A: "As long as the music is good I don’t think any genre of music is superior to another. I don’t give a crap if the fans are white, black green yellow or blue. For me music and politics don’t go hand in hand."
- Pragmatically oriented, Moynihan has found resonance with selected elements of ideas espoused by fanatics and revolutionaries involved in divergent extreme milieus, as reflected in his attraction to Charles Manson, Mu'ammar al-Qadhdhafi, Michael Bakunin, Julius Evola, James Mason, and Miguel Serrano.
- In Lords of Chaos, Hellhammer is quoted as saying "..." In 2004, when asked "..." he responded with "...."
"LOC is best characterized as a palimpsest with the author's own political ideology at work just’ below the surface of a text ostensibly devoted solely to analyzing an extremist musical sub-culture." The current revision of the article brings this in only as the Critique of Kevin Cogan, whereas it is in fact an accurate summary of the book. Zara1709 ( talk) 07:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't know about "nefarious", but this is obviously a report biased in favour of its object. I mean, how biased do you need to be to turn a depressing crime rampage of a handful of misfit youths into a "Bloody Rise of the Satanic Metal Underground"? There is only so much debate in this. Bloodofox has used the same tactics at Talk:Michael Moynihan (journalist). The result is an article riddled with footnotes and the occasional "he denied all allegations", but the attentive reader will still get the picture. It is probably too much to ask boo for cooperation sufficient to turn this into anything resembling coherent prose, but the information is all in there. dab (𒁳) 12:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I saw this sentence in reference to a newer interview done with Hellhammer (after he came out against the book in an earlier interview and said he didn't care about the color of fans): "However, in a newer one done in 2007, he said he still stands behind his former statement "that black metal was only for white people and that in Norway people didn't like negroes."[25]" but I'm not sure it should even be used. Read the context. Then read the actual interview. The whole thing is done in a very tongue-in-cheek manner, like Hellhammer and the interviewer were messing around. In fact, during the interview Hellhammer even seems to come off as pro-gay or at least not having a problem with gay people whatsoever. If this statement is left in, I think it should be changed to reflect the tone of the interview at the very least. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 03:23, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 ( talk) 12:36, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
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