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As there is occasionally some cross-over between the above article and this one regular editors may like to provide some input into the former as this has, again, been edited in a somewhat POV fashion which may not be consistent with that of the vast majority of users. DerbyCountyinNZ ( Talk Contribs) 19:09, 14 September 2010 (UTC).
I think that Shigechiyo Izumi should be removed. This year's Guinness book has already removed him. I thought that the only reason that he was kept on because Guinness still accepted his claim. DHanson317 ( talk) 00:54, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
I have been thinking about this for a while now, but every time I comer to this article, I can't help but notice the "Disputed" names on the list. If this article's title claims that the names on the list are "verified", then why are there disputed names on the list? Are these claims verified, and by what criteria are they still being disputed as to mark these names separate from the others?-- Jojhutton ( talk) 01:10, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
DHanson and an IP do not like my attempt to make this a true "list of the verified oldest people" rather than a top-100-plus-addendum arbitrary cutoff. Fact is, in 18 months on and off with this topic, I never until last month could even tell how to find a complete list of verified supercentenarians, and that's a problem. Hanson's suggestion that it appears in the overblown template did not help me to find it there all these months, because it doesn't advert itself as a complete list, but a giant set of overlapping lists. The idea of making a list of lists (by deathdate in this case) is very old and is well-used at list of centenarians and other articles following WP:SUMMARY style.
The idea that people only want to know about the top 107 cases is completely arbitrary. The complete list (as of 2007) appears at the GRG site on one page. Since WP doesn't fit it in one page, it should be laid out as a list of lists in standard summary style. To limit this title to 107 cases rather than to include (by reference) all cases over age 110.0, the long-established cutoff, is undue WP:WEIGHT and thus WP:POV. I don't see any reason for these reverts other than preserving a status quo thoughtlessly. JJB 04:12, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Derby, it seems you didn't look at my edit, because I agreed with you that WP doesn't fit it in one page. I believe the correct solution is a list of lists, not a 1000-member list as you suggest, nor a template. This is standard practice for many giant lists, like notable centenarians, Eagle Scouts, asteroids, and the like. If WP contains a set of articles that constitute a list of known verified supercentenarians, it is WP:AD and WP:COI to require them to use one or two POV sites for that list. Since your concern does not actually address my proposal, and since the reversions are contrary to NPOV, I am likely to try the balancing insertion again differently. Or perhaps you can review the edit and reinstate it yourself, thanks. JJB 16:24, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Too many subtle flaws in these arguments to address now, Jack, but I appreciate your not indulging in unsubtle flaws as I've seen elsewhere. JJB 18:02, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Jack, that was uncalled for, but I will state the subtle flaws anyway for those listening. First, yes, technically 110 is arbitrary also, but it's a longstanding consensus among gerontologists as to what point should be used at which we should take note (just like 65 is arbitrary for Social Security but notable anyway); also, technically even a top-107 list including disputeds (like the top-10 lists) being presented separately from the complete list is not completely arbitrary; but your exclusion of the complete "list of lists" is undue weight and contrary to the title, which should then be "the 100 undisputed verified oldest", or "oldest people at least as old as the 100th undisputed". Second, your statement about limiting the (recognition of the) "achievement" to the top-100 list places top-100 promoters (i.e., GRG) as the judge of who is recognized rather than source consensus that recognizes all supercentenarians. Third, your belief that 110th birthdays were unheard-of in certain eras is contradicted by the evidence, and if you wish to modify it to "verified" 110ths, it's only unheard-of because there was no formal definition of "verified" prior to GWR standards (that, or else it's not unheard-of because many reporters in prior centuries found these cases "verified" well enough for their own standars). Fourth, your position that the top-107 list takes no position on what age is notable is false, in that of course it sets an age, just like any list must, the age being whatever age the 100th undisputed case is today; but 110 is much simpler and better sourced and so a complete list should be included alongside, and the unthinking opposition to such an alternate list is strikingly protective of a single-POV take on this title. (On a side point, I'm glad there was at least some healthy hesitancy about the arbitrariness of 115 in that other list, but it has not spread to other arbitrary uses of 115 yet.) Finally, your last statement in combination with your prior seems to say that a list cutoff should be determined by achieving something, and that achievement should be as defined by demographers calculating trends: well, that would be fine if you could source it, but even if you did, NPOV would compel you to show all data presentations that different demographers have proposed as appropriate, and over-110 is the best and oldest presentation of this data. I may decline to reply to further subtle flaws. I was sincere about your not indulging in unsubtle flaws.
Anyway, to other editors, if you have some ideas for accommodating my concern that there is no summary list of all verified supercentenarians and no way for a reader to quickly establish how many there are, please tell me. Without a summary list, we have the problem that new editors might add a case (verified or not) in a death list, a country list, a war list, an occupation list, a claims/traditions list, or several of the above, without any agreed scope that there should be one base article for insertion and then additional insertions would be gravy. With agreed scopes, such as that the death lists plus the living list constitute the complete list of supercentenarians, people know where to look. JJB 21:20, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
There are a lot of problems with the above argument. First, yes, technically 110 is arbitrary also, but it's a longstanding consensus among gerontologists as to what point should be used at which we should take note. It may indeed be when gerontologists now take note, but I don't believe this is as "long-standing" as you seem to think. Only a dozen cases have been more or less accepted from people who died before 1960. By 1980, that list had expanded, but to only about 45 or so new cases. Now, gerontologists can correct me if I am wrong here, but it is really only since the explosion of cases - and we are up to something in the area of 1,500 confirmed cases - that the field started focusing on the 110-year cut-off.
I would not be surprised, given the explosion of cases, if a new cut-off emerges in the next decade or so of, say, 111, 112. Because with some 77 confirmed LIVING cases (compared to the historical 77th confirmed case, ALL-TIME, having only emerged in 1983), and the possibility of greatly expanded numbers of new cases, verifying everyone becomes unwieldy and, by definition, less notable.
Why underline this point? Because it is less important WHAT the arbitrary age is that someone reaches, it matters HOW MANY people reach that age and, therefore, how notable that milestone truly is. Running the mile in 3:57 in 1958 was an extremely notable achievement, not because it was a magical number, but because only a small handful of people had done it. Today? Since that time has been run hundreds, if not more than a thousand times, it is no longer notable, but being among the fastest 10 or 100 or what have you times IS. IOW, there is nothing intrinsic about the time run or the years lived, outside of how this compares to others who ran the distance or lived long.
Your comments seem odd and misplaced about "undue weight," etc., given to a list of 100 cases. First, you presuppose that by not including a complete list or "list of lists" (which exists on the bottom of the page, so is therefore not excluded) we are "excluding" some universally accepted "true" list of oldest people. But such a list does not exist. The GRG have DEFINED lists, for example, all supercentenarians, top 20 Japanese cases, living superc's etc. But they DON'T simply list 100-this, 100-that. ...your statement about limiting the (recognition of the) "achievement" to the top-100 list places top-100 promoters (i.e., GRG) as the judge of who is recognized rather than source consensus that recognizes all supercentenarians. This is odd - I am not aware that GRG has that particular list, or a series of 100-deep list. If I am not mistaken, they have a 200-deep list, at least on all people.
Further, the lists are not limited to simply what GRG has. As noted, several sources are consulted, GRG is not the sole source, and the manner in which THEY do the lists are not simply replicated here.
Third, your belief that 110th birthdays were unheard-of in certain eras is contradicted by the evidence... To me, this betrays your lack of time spent reading the various attendant articles. Only about a dozen cases of 110+ are verified from before 1960. And this is not simply because the "rules" for verification only came later. Much research has been done on earlier cases, many have been verified from the 60s, very few from before. Further, much research has been done on the general subject which confirms that many claims were exaggerated, some wildly, and once reliable records allowed verification and debunking, those claims were often shown to be false. But there are many pages dedicated to those older claims, and the claims which can not be readily verified or debunked. Which is why the lists here are limited to verified claims.
The practical problem, given the proven propensity of wild claims regarding age to be made, and the ability to verify those claims only emerging as record-keeping was vastly improved, mostly in the 19th century in some countries, is that including non-verified claims, or even claims which MIGHT be true, renders these lists meaningless as they don't record the actual proven lengths of human longevity. Longevity claims and longevity myths cover those areas. It is no mere coincidence, gerontologists argue, that the claims for the longest-lived people emerge from countries with poor record-keeping and a lack of an ability to verify those claims.
Fourth, your position that the top-107 list takes no position on what age is notable is false, in that of course it sets an age, just like any list must, the age being whatever age the 100th undisputed case is today; but 110 is much simpler and better sourced and so a complete list should be included alongside, and the unthinking opposition to such an alternate list is strikingly protective of a single-POV take on this title. Wrong. In 2000, reaching the age of 111 or so was "notable" in terms of the list. Now, you need to be 113 1/2 to hit the list. This reflects a shift in demographics which, some argue, is the true value of the 100-style list (comparing the woman-only to men-only lists bears this out). Sure, 110 is "simpler," save for the fact that it'd be 1,500 claims long. But, again, what is so special about hitting 110? It was special in, say, 1970. Even 1980. It no longer is very notable.
Finally, your last statement in combination with your prior seems to say that a list cutoff should be determined by achieving something, and that achievement should be as defined by demographers calculating trends... You have it backwards. There is no "definition" per se of what age one needs to be "notable," and it is not defined by the particular age on the list, it is defined by how old are the oldest people. Saying "110 cutoff" says nothing as, conceivably, there may be 1,000 people who reach that age at a given point of time, or there could be NO people at that age (as was the case in recent memory). What IS more significant is ranking the oldest people and picking a specific number of them to identify a demographic trend. 100 is a round number, arbitrary for sure, but that number could just as easily be 50, or 200, or a 1,000. For the purposes of wikipedia, I'd argue that 100 is probably the maximum. Therefore, if and when the list of living super-c's reaches 100, I'd argue we'd make it the "100 oldest living people" and not add more. Why? Because reaching 110 would no longer be notable.
Canada Jack ( talk) 22:52, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
...if news reported a 110th birthday and there were already 100 living, there would be no place on WP to put it and thus a determination that in this case supercentenarianism is no longer notable in itself, which would be bizarre after it's been notable in itself for so long.
This isn't "bizarre," it reflects the fact that sticking to an arbitrary age means that at one time you may have the case where few or no people are at that age and another time potentially hundreds. (GRG estimates some 450 or so super-c's alive, 77 currently verified.) Therefore "notability" should not be defined by living to a particular age, it should be defined as being one of a small number of individuals, that small number being the arbitrary element.
So, I will reiterate what I said above. The age 110 is an arbitrary boundary, one which, in verified terms, was in the not-too-distant past only exceeded very rarely, but which is now exceeded almost weekly, a relatively common occurrence. There are currently 77 living verified super-c's. The 77th all-time verified super-c died in 1983. Which underlines the arbitrary nature of the boundary. The value of a 100-deep list is that it reflects those who are at or near the pinnacle in question. Picking a particular age excludes those who may at one time be the oldest person (or whatever category) on the planet, and at another time the 1,000th. Using your criteria in the 60s, we'd have instances where there was no oldest person as there was no one over 110 alive! Indeed, with a mere three men verified over 110 currently alive, your approach implies that it is inconsequential to know who the oldest man is if that oldest man is not yet 110. Which makes no sense to me. People want to know who is oldest or among the oldest, not who is over some arbitrary boundary.
To underline, these pages are not supercentenarian lists per se, they are pages on extreme age.
Secondly, greatly expanding lists of those unverified claims renders meaningless the importance of verification. As is spelled out in other pages on the subjects, gerontologists don't consider most of those old claims to be valid for many good reasons - not simply because old records are considered not up to our standards. Once universal registration came into being in many countries, many claims of extreme age - MOST of them, I should add - were provably false. And the extreme claims started to dwindle in those countries. Which is why most claims NOW for great longevity come from countries with poor record-keeping, at least in the opinion of most gerontologists. But you seem to seek to reverse the onus here - from using evidence to prove a claim to demanding evidence on how we can dismiss unverified claims. That, simply put, will not wash with most of the editors on this site. Especially given that there are already pages on unverified claims. The field of gerontology is one where fraud, deception and simple error in terms of claimed ages was and is rampant, therefore verification criteria are by necessity more stringent.
Finally, expanding lists to be "complete" brings its own problems. For example, the list of women over 110 would be well over a thousand. The list of men would be something like 150. Is it of greater interest to know each and every of the 1,500 (or so) oldest women, but only a tenth of the men? Why not the same number for men, a list 1,500 deep? The answer is the particular age is arbitrary and this distorts the lists if applied. In contrast, an arbitrary NUMBER of claims NEVER distorts the data, never implies one list is more important than the other ("only" 150 men would be listed, 1,500 women implies that that list of far greater interest and importance) as long as that number is equally applied. I think it is appropriate to question what that number is, how deep the lists should be, but a list of 1,500 is way too long, and I believe most editors here would agree, and the lists would be of hugely differing lengths EVEN IF YOU ADDED UNVERIFIED CLAIMS.
In sum, the lists should stand at their current depth of 100; while super-c's are the ones most likely to be verified, that doesn't require us to exhaustively note each and every (or great numbers) of them; we should retain the sharp distinction made between verified and unverified claims and not seek to expand the current lists, nor mingle verified and unverified claims. Canada Jack ( talk) 19:23, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
I never suggested that 100-deep lists are somehow sacrosanct, just that lists should be of a certain length, not of a certain age criteria/on. Why 100? That is the number editors here seemed to feel was sufficient, there is no directive from the various sources on what is a "proper" length, so I'm not really sure where the argument that 100 is somehow POV. You seem to be arguing for an age cut-off list which I argue is POV - as the age in question is notable or not notable depending on the list in question. But while the specific number may be arbitrary, how does one come to a "NPOV" number? Is there such a thing? It's not a question you have answered adequately via the age-limit criterion as that makes for lists of wildly different lengths. And accusations of undue weight, etc/. To me, if a number is agreed-upon, that is fine. 100 is what that is now, 10 on some pages. But it could be any number/s as long as it is applied more or less consistently.
You say these lists are not supercentenarian per se, which may be true of some, but it's not true of living supercentenarians, which by your logic should take the top 100 living people NOW instead of waiting until they're all 110 to make the switch. Just another inconsistency to address sometime. Yes, this is true, though I'd argue for a 100-deep list if one could be compiled. In a practical sense, however, it can't be unless more than 100 living people are verified over 110. In several cases here, what would normally be a "100"-deep list or "10"-deep list is just the number of available candidates over the verified age - so there are only 3 men on the Oldest people page, though the list would max out at 10 if there were available candidates. There was a big debate over mixing unverified with verified candidates here a few years back, for national records as those under 110 might not be properly verified, so there'd be an odd situation of a 109-year-old on the national lists disappearing once they turned 110 until they were verified.
As for your overarching point of having complete data, I am not sure that is necessary here at wikipedia as long as we have links to those who compile such lists. It sounds to me like the page might simply copy Epstein, for example. It was for this reason a strong argument for removing the "living" list was made as it more or less copied GRG, that page has now expanded to include other claims. I know there are other pages on other subjects which were removed which mainly copied lists found on one or two sites.
So, I'd imagine you would get resistance to a proposal to have a "base" page of all claims from which the various pages draw their data, if that page is merely a copy of data from a single source like Epstein or GRG. And this is beside the size of this page. I personally don't see the need for this here, nor for the list links at the top of the page. So, my suggestion is to get enough editors on-side with your proposals before enacting them, not withstanding the possible pitfalls I have identified. Canada Jack ( talk) 20:50, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
Hello. I have never understood this ... and I am wondering if someone on this Talk Page can help me to understand this. Thanks in advance. On lists such as this (and the GRG list, etc.), I do not understand why ages are "calculated" according to "years and days" (as opposed to the more mathematically correct, "total number of days"). In other words, some "years" are 365 days; some "years" are 366 days. Since lists such as this rank people by how long they have been alive, why is it the industry standard, if you will, to ignore this basic fact that the word "year" has different meanings (365 days in some cases; 366 days in other cases)? In other words, why add in that additional margin of error in calculating ages? I have never understood this. I am wondering if someone at this Talk Page can help me understand why this is so. Why is it that people who study and document longevity (such as the GRG, etc.) turn a blind eye to this obvious (and easily corrected) method of calculating age? Thanks for any insights. This has always driven me crazy. Thank you! ( Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 01:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC))
Basically, because people mark their ages by years, not by days. Saying someone lived 40,000 days usually will elicit a blank stare. Saying they lived 113 years will get a different reaction. Further, the leap year difference, is only a single day and is WITHIN the margin of error when one considers the day-count accuracy, which is more like 48 hours. It is not an additional margin of error, at least, not necessarily. Two people of the same age by year/day count may be out by one day on day count alone, but that is still within the margin of error - it is not possible to know who is truly "oldest" if we don't know the exact time of birth and death. Further, we can't assume that the recorded date of birth was the ACTUAL date of birth, as, for example, clerical errors often occur whereby say "Wednesday" is assigned the wrong day of the month, or cultural differences are not taken into account, for example sunset marking a new day, or the absence of clocks at night to be able to determine what day a person was actually born.
In the end, these questions are somewhat irrelevant in terms of gerontology, as the main concern there is where the data is trending - how many people reach 110 now compared to 10 years ago, for example - not whether person A is in fact a day older than person B or not. Errors due to data mistakes or rounding are a given: it is assumed that these errors more or less cancel each other once you standardize what data is accepted or not.
The analogy I use is from track and field - there is no use fussing over whether a 100-metre race is accurately measured to within a single centimeter when your stopwatch can only determine times to the tenth of a second. The stopwatch's margin of error exceeds the distance margin of error. An error of a day in terms of leap years is within the margin of error due to time of day. Canada Jack ( talk) 05:08, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
(un-indent) Hi. I just cannot wrap my mind around this. Can you please help me understand all this? Thanks. Let's say that Person A is born on December 31, 1995, and dies on January 1, 1997. Let's say that Person B is born on December 31, 1994, and dies on January 1, 1996. (The year 1996 was a leap year, while the year 1995 was a non-leap year.) Person A would have an age of 1 year and 1 day, and he lived for 367 days. Person B would have an age of 1 year and 1 day, and he lived for 366 days. So, on this type of longevity chart or ranking, they are "equal" (both being at 1 year and 1 day). But, in terms of "longevity" (that is, how long they have actually lived on this earth before dying), doesn't Person A with the 367 days of living have "more longevity" than Person B with the 366 days of living? (These charts are measuring longevity, correct? That is, how long a person has lived.) Now, for all cases, the actual date of birth – and the actual date of death – will always have a margin of error of 24 hours or so (technically, it is probably 23 hours and 59 minutes and 59 seconds). On the actual birth-day, a person might be born as early as 12:00:00 midnight or as late as 11:59:59 pm. And we just don't know. But, regardless of that 23:59:59 discrepancy, they get the "credit" for that "one day" of living. And, similarly, the same thing happens with the death-day. I understand all of that. So, basically, we all acknowledge that a person's first day and last day may (or may not) be "partial" fractions of a true 24-hour day. That whole concept is imbedded as an inherent error in the entire system, as we do not record the actual time of birth/death, but rather we round it off to one specific "day". Now, let's get back to my example above, with Person A and Person B. We know that Person A has lived through the entire year of 1996 (all 366 days, at a full 24-hours per day). Plus, he has lived whatever fractional portion of the days on either side of the year 1996 (that is, the day he was born and the day he died). We know that Person B has lived through the entire year of 1995 (all 365 days, at a full 24-hours per day). Plus, he has lived whatever fractional portion of the days on either side of the year 1995 (that is, the day he was born and the day he died). So, we all acknowledge that we can never pinpoint any specific time or longevity on the first and last day of life (the birth-day and the death-day). That is a given and is "built into" the system. And, therefore, it is an inherent "equalizer" among all people being tracked for longevity. But, can't we also acknowledge without controversy that Person A has lived longer than Person B (within the confines and margin of error of the age calculation system)? (That is, we acknowledge that we can never know the precise timing of the birth-day and death-day, so those two "endpoint" days may or may not be fractional portions of a full day.) But, we know for a fact that Person A definitely had a full 366 days in between the uncertain endpoints, and Person B only had 365 full days in between the uncertain endpoints. So, Person A has lived a full 366 days (at 24 hours each), plus some unknown fractional portion of the birth-day and some unknown fractional portion of the death-day. And, Person B has lived a full 365 days (at 24 hours each), plus some unknown fractional portion of the birth-day and some unknown fractional portion of the death-day. That is, the birth-day and the death-day will always have an imbedded margin of error. That "error" is simply assumed for all individuals. But, we can count with certainty the (known and definite) period of living (i.e., longevity) in between the two uncertain and imprecise endpoints. So, Person A has the inherent room for error in measuring the exact longevity (period of living) on his birth-day and on his death-day. Person B has this same exact inherent room for errors. So, why are we "adding to" these unavoidable errors by "pretending" that the 366-day year of Person A is exactly equal to the 365-day year of Person B? I am just confused, and I would like to try to wrap my mind around this concept. I assume that there must be some validity to the rationale, since it is the standard method that all the groups seem to use. But, I can't seem to grasp why they are ignoring such a basic fact (i.e., that leap years are not equal to non-leap years in terms of how long a person has lived on this earth). Can anyone explain this in a way that I can make sense of? Thanks! I'd really appreciate this! ( Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 17:59, 16 October 2010 (UTC))
Can we please stop breaking WP:MOSBOLD that limits bolding only to certain items? How about a compromise to italics, which are permitted in this instance? JJB 18:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Yea, I don't even see your point at all -_- DHanson317 ( talk) 00:26, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
I have no opinion on the "bolding war" as such, but I would like to point out that WP:CONSENSUS does not mean "it will always be this way". Remember that consensus can change...and it often does. Frank | talk 00:54, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
The page itself is affected by whether or not these words are bolded. Not bolding them will negatively affect the meaning and readability of the lede here. Shouldn't we consider WP:IAR in this case? Brendan ( TalK| ContriB) 09:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
If this is as clear-cut as JJB suggests it is, I don't see what the problem here is and why there needs to be a big argument on this relatively minor point. If it needs to change as per policy, then it should be changed. Any motivation editors may identify on his part is a moot point if the policy is as JJB suggests. Canada Jack ( talk) 16:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
Contraindications
Use italics, not boldface, for emphasis in article text.
But this isn't "article text," it's a name in a list.
Further, the policy says use common sense and occasional exceptions apply.
It's clear that JJBulten is here only to be a bully, not to find consensus. Look at this passage:
"It is unwise to argue from what "we want" when the issue is what Wikipedians in general want as indicated by their policies. You won't want to get hung up on the little bolding issues when whole articles are at stake for nonverifiability and nonnotability, and I'm generally not going to be the one handing out WP:AFDs either. It is time for longevity editors to learn to roll with others."
He also is the FIRST to use the phrase "bolding war," and indicates he is stirring up more problems and finding "allies" to do so.
All this is smoke and mirrors that distracts from the core truth: JJBulten's ideas represent fiction, not fact; the past, not the present or future. Ryoung122 20:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
In other Wikipedia articles, the text and other information presented in the page is tailored to the subject itself in question. The information in it can change at any time, be it tomorrow or 200 years later. In contrast, the lede of this page is written based on irrefutable, solid facts, such as the fact that Jeanne Calment is currently the oldest validated person ever to walk the face of the earth. For other articles on Wikipedia, italics gives the emphasis needed most of the time. This is NOT the case with the lede here. The purpose of bolding those words is to highlight them and generally improve readability of the lede as a whole, among other reasons. In any case, the emphasis here is NOT on the fact that Eunice Sanborn, Walter Breuning, and others are verified, or that they are living, or that they have attained supercentenarian status. The highlight is on the phrase itself as a whole! If the rules of MOS really apply here, then let's go back and italicise the names of all living supercentenarians on the list, not bold them. Brendan ( TalK| ContriB) 01:00, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
Greetings,
When we see comments like this:
If you stick with me in maintaining policy compliance on the bigger issues, the little issues will be solved more easily. JJB 16:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
1. It is clear that Bulten is CANVASSING for support, a violation of Wiki policy. 2. JJBulten falsely views himself as some sort of "police" man on Wikipedia. He is not. 3. JJBulten continually violates policy. He has started edit "wars," threatened kids by pointing out their age (ageism), canvassed for support, and a lot of other things. 4. JJBulten has threatened others by quickly threatening to report them for blocks, rather than attempt to first achieve consensus. 5. JJBulten has misused terms such as "compliance." Wikipedia is not a democracy, but neither it is a one-man dictatorship. Perhaps JJBulten needs to read up on WP:OWN.
All attempts at compromise have been met with him not giving up anything.
Ryoung122 20:34, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
"... take a word to the wise: pick your battles wisely. This is a nonstarter. I'm sorry that you've been hanging out with editors who have not followed policy, but now's the time to be a quick learner." Excuse me, but whether or not I am following Wikipedia policies in your worldview, should not be used to comment on personality traits and the character of the editor in question. As I have warned JJB, this is very obviously a violation of WP:NPA. It's tantamount to saying that each and every single homosexual in the world is effeminate, basing your argument solely on their sexual orientation and nothing else. Is that fair? Brendan ( TalK| ContriB) 01:10, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
JJB, that's just an excuse to threaten me and state that the age of the user in question dictates whether or not they should be taken seriously on Wikipedia. That is, as Ryoung122 pointed out, AGEISM. If that really applied, then why are there still 8 and 9 year olds working right here on Wikipedia? Also, what "avuncular" belief is there? The narrow-minded belief that teens are more apt to learn debating has led you to make this comment. That's sad. Brendan ( TalK| ContriB) 01:22, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
Can someone please explain what the dispute here is? It looks to me like there is some discussion of bold vs italic, so I presume it is for the current date and the wikilink to the list of living supercentarians. If that is the case, I think neither of them should be bold OR italic. The wikilink will show up as any other one does; if the reader wishes to click through, that is their decision. As for the date, I don't know what policy covers it, but bolding the date isn't commonly seen that I know of. (I am only one editor, I realize.)
I think a good model is List of United States Supreme Court Justices by time in office. Clean intro, devoid of bold OR italics except for the part which mirrors the title of the page. Frank | talk 16:32, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
Why is the text bold again? It is completely against MoS. Can someone please explain to me clearly what they see as the logic for this? Thanks. Itsmejudith ( talk) 20:41, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
It appears this issue is largely one of being pedantic vs being disruptive/constructive. DerbyCountyinNZ ( Talk Contribs) 21:21, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I was first to call it a war, and now I'll be first to take it boldly to 3RR. 3O is only for a two-editor debate. To say this is a "common-sense" requirement and this is "not article text" is a complete declaration of victory of (small-group) personal preference over WP style. Thanks Derby for your support. JJB 13:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
I really do think they should probably on this list. If they are in the article "List of Spanish supercentenarians", then they should be everywhere else on wikipedia. They have been validated with a valid source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.50.204.87 ( talk) 19:48, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Why is that? Kama Chinen was about as anonymous as most people get. Anonymous or not, they have reached the Top 100 list, and they are validated. I don't know why there's an issue.
These two cases are not anonymous, but rather "name not disclosed". Their names are presumably known to the authors of the paper as well as the name of Joan Riudavets Moll who was identified in table 4 (p. 166) as J.R.M. (Temporary) privacy of the name should not preclude Wikipedia from listing the fact. Leob ( talk) 02:44, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Siamese. To me, the point of these lists is to identify individuals who have achieved the longest known life spans. If they are anonymous they can not, by definition, be identified. I think we can put a note under the main list saying several verified but unidentified people have been reported with the attendant details. Canada Jack ( talk) 16:06, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Okay, looking over the situation, the first question I asked was "is this information" verifiable in a reliable source? Unless I'm mistaken (and please correct me if I am), the answer to that question is yes... even though their names are not listed, the information that they exist (and their initials) can be verified and the source in question is reliable. So I don't see any Wikipedia policy issues here. So then I asked, "What is the purpose of this list?" The purpose, I believe, would ideally to be list the 100 oldest people who ever lived... and in this case the standard we are using is verification by "an international body that specifically deals in longevity research". Does this source qualify? If so, then they should be included, if not, then they should be excluded. I don't think anonymity is an issue... it's difficult to think of a realistic analogy... but whether or not their names are made public is irrelevant to the fact that they have been verified as reaching a certain age (again, contingent on this source qualifying under the page's guidelines for verification). If Jeanne Calment's claim had all the same evidence it does now, but no research body or news agency had ever released her name, she would still be the oldest person verified to have ever lived, and her exclusion on the basis of us not knowing her name would only make the list inaccurate.
A compromise, however, might be to include a footnote, especially if there is disagreement to the validity of the verification source. Canadian Paul 04:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Canadian Paul: anonymity should not be an issue. There is plenty of anonymous music composers, anonymous writers, etc. and they all appear in Wikipedia. The real issue is if the source is reliable. And, I may be wrong, but I am not sure the decision whether a source is or is not reliable is entirely up to the page contributors. Indeed, there are several other pages dealing with supercentenarians, and I do not think different pages should use a different policy. Usually, Guinness and the Gerontology Research Group is considered the main reliable source. The so-called Epstein's list is also referred as a reliable one. I am happy to know there is more out there. But I would like to have a more "universal" consensus. In any case, I strongly suggest to mantain a constructive discussion. Keeping reverting and re-reverting changes is not going in the right direction. If I remember correctly, once a change has been reverted for the first time, one should bring the issue to the discussion page without re-reverting, until consensus is attained. In the meantime the new Spanish cases should not be included. Fbarioli ( talk) 16:04, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I think these cases should be listed. If we think of credit ratings agencies (like Experian, Transunion, Equifax), the "big three" sometimes vary in their reports.
The IDL/Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research really is the most-respected age verification group in the field (however, their goal is to generate demographic data, not public records). The issue is "anonymity." The GRG/Guinness World Records focus on publicly validated cases, not anonymity.
Nonetheless, the GRG has listed "verified anonymous cases" in the past:
456 37 Japan NA Nov. 23, 1886 Dec. 19, 1996 110 26 O ? Japan
Thus, I see no reason why these cases cannot be listed. Wikipedia has a policy of "placeholder" for its list of most edits.
The point of including these cases is that it provides the best demographic data available. We know, for example, that Eugenie Blanchard has not yet surpassed Spain's oldest woman of all time.
Also, there is the possibility that the case was not anonymous but simply not reported in the media. Media report is definitely NOT the standard to determine verification.
The best choice is to include the information that is publicly available. We know the dates of birth and death, age in years and days, nation of death, and initials. We know the case was verified by arguably the most-authoritative source in the field. To me, the issue of sources should focus on whether the Epstein list counts or not. The IDL and GRG are well-established, as is Guinness World Records. Ryoung122 17:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
I think the real issue here is that, for some, a case with no name is like reducing us to a number; the human aspect is lost.
But I disagree. Serena Williams is #1 in the world even though she is not participating in the US Open 2010.
People can choose to be in the media spotlight, or not. There's been no news report on Lucy Hannah; the ONLY reason we know her name is the laws in the U.S. allow public access to the records. Whether a family's wish to be anonymous or not is not the legal issue. Kama Chinen's family desired anonymity, but the government of Japan had already publicly released the name. It therefore became public record. However, we don't see any photos of Kama at age 114, do we? Ryoung122 18:02, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Greetings,
In response to the above:
1. Yes, the GRG accepts anonymous validated cases, I already mentioned that.
2. The GRG did not begin tracking supercentenarians until 1999. Additionally, cases come from public records including news reports which are then verified through a documentation process (for example, finding birth, marriage, and ID records). The above anonymous cases were never reported in the media, thus the GRG did not know about them.
3. The International Database on Longevity uses the same document standards as the GRG, but the list is more complete because the records they gather come direct from government registries. The problem for Wikipedia is that the IDL values "anonymity" and for them, their main focus is demographic data (the complete statistical picture), not individual cases. The IDL allows information to be released for nations that allow public records access (such as the USA and the UK).
Ryoung122 03:29, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
What say you? Brendan ( TalK| ContriB) 16:05, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
The only problem I have with these new cases is that they move living people down a few places and people who were in the top 100 or the addendum are moved off the list. Has it been decided that the "anonymous" cases are staying on the list because I find it annoying when people put cases on, then take them off, then put them on again, and so on. Also, are their real names being looked into or can they be looked into? I apologize if I am only making this situation worse, I just don't like leaving anything unsolved. Jdisnard ( talk) 20:16, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
Greetings,
I'm not going to bother with reverting such a small issue, but "lives in" sounds better, and is shorter, than "living in the United States".
The whole point of the "living" designation is that it is PRESENT tense. One could easily say "she was living in Pennslyvania, but now lives in New York." Therefore, "living in" can be past tense, and is therefore less correct. Ryoung122 22:20, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
Apologies if I missed a discussion on this, but -- why does the country column need to say "living in" anyway? It's redundant, as the Date of Death column already says "living", and frankly I think it makes the layout look so unattractive that I feel compelled to write about it. I get that the reasoning may be "the column header says country of _death_", but when a living person already has bold text, green background, and "living" explicitly specified, I really don't think there's any confusion (or supposed prognostication) left to be avoided in that last column. If anything, why not change the column name to "last living in" or something? Javhar ( talk) 15:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
See the result of the edit warring case here:
Editors are advised not to do further reverts of bolding, in either direction, unless consensus is reached here on the formatting. If you cannot determine whether a talk page consensus exists, you could ask ask at WP:AN for an administrator to close the discussion. Admins may issue blocks with no further warning if the edit war continues. Even a single revert may be enough to lead to action. Thank you, EdJohnston ( talk) 17:01, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
As I have said before, the original form should be retained until consensus is reached to change it. I see no consensus for change, therefore we should get the old bolding back. Canada Jack ( talk) 19:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Derby is correct - I am indifferent rather than against. I said that if the policy is as iron-clad as JJB suggested, then remove the bolding. But subsequent discussion indicates this is not as clear-cut an issue as JJB suggested. It seems to me, that until an actual decision on what we should do here is arrived at, the page should be in its original form, i.e. with the bolds. Canada Jack ( talk) 14:20, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
I can't find any provocation for Ed Johnston's warning. This article doesn't appear to be on any edit probation, nor has he linked a discussion that says anything about "one revert and your blocked". This seems to be his own way of maintaining order, but as many of us veteren editors have seen, this is the type of admin behavior that always seems to end up at ANI. Ed Johnston may have good intentions, but I must remind him to take each instance of 3RR on a case by case basis, rather than giving everyone a blanket warning without consensus. That being said, is there a reason why there shouldn't be bolding in the lead? Seems pretty standard across all projects. Didn't see anything in WP:MOSBOLD that would lead me to believe otherwise.-- Jojhutton ( talk) 15:31, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Let's take that argument further, JJB. Why not go to ANY article on a living person, say Mick Jagger for example. Therein it states that he was born in 1943 and is now 67. But I've not heard him saying something in the press for a few weeks - how can we know he is still in fact living? I say it's time to apply your logic, viz: The paradigm should shift from "assumed living indefinitely (or for an arbitrary 2 years)" to "verified as of update date (with nothing said about afterward)" and forthwith indicate the last time a "living" person - ANY person - was reported to be alive. In the cases of very public people like the president of the United States, we can add nearly daily updates as he is constantly in the news. So "alive as of today/yesterday." But we can't be so confident with others. So Mick Jagger might be "reported alive as of September xx." Canada Jack ( talk) 16:15, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Then you agree it is compliant to assume notable people on wikipedia are living unless their death has been reported. In the case of Super-C's we have a slightly different situation. For one, our sources are frequently updated and THEY list people as "living" even if they may not have had an update. So while you may have a somewhat strained argument in saying that it is "OR" or what have you to suggest that, day-to-day, we can't be sure that person "x" is indeed alive, sources like GRG update their list about five times a month. But, in a practical sense, THEY can't be sure if any of the people have not died, unreported, in the past few days, indeed since their last reported time, within the year, of being alive.
Which brings up another point. People are taken off the GRG list if there is no confirmation a year after the last confirmation that they are indeed still living. So, not sure where this "two year" business comes from which you mentioned.
Further, the Wikipedia list is frequently more up-to-date than the GRG list. Almost invariably, when someone dies, they are removed from the WP list before GRG or Epstein.
So, while we can never be certain day-to-day whether a particular individual has died: a) this is of no particular concern on pages of notable living persons, otherwise we'd say "alive as of September 30th" or what have you, if that was the last "confirmed" report that, say, Mick Jagger was alive; b) if this is of no particular concern there, it should be of no particular concern here; c) our sources, like GRG, list people as being "alive" even though, day-to-day, they can't know that unless on that particular day (updates are issued for a particular day) a report has been received that some or all those people are in fact living; d) it is stretch to presume that it is OR or what have you to continue the assumption from GRG etc that the next day those people are alive, especially given that GRG frequently updates their lists (most recently six days ago); e) since we are concerned chiefly on whether people are listed as living when in fact dead, it must be pointed out that almost invariably people who die are taken off the "living" list BEFORE GRG etc updates THEIR lists, so it is ludicrous to insist in sticking to the last update from a source like GRG when here at wikipedia we are in fact ahead of GRG most of the time in removing those people who have been reported to have died. Canada Jack ( talk) 21:31, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Basically, no harm is done by assuming the default position that folks on the list who were alive yesterday remain alive today. Frank | talk 21:35, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
And the list is getting stale again. Brendan ( TalK| ContriB) 00:53, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
In short, it is possible an alternative path to compliance would be to adopt the source-based rule "GRG assumes living therefore we should". I am, however, questioning this rule due to inherent unreliability of GRG as an expert source for making such an assumption, and because GWR is a more reliable print source that does not make such an assumption. This might be a question for WP:RSN, but I think finding a consensus among ourselves between my WP-policy-based views and WOP's GRG-practice-based views should be done first. JJB 03:48, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
As to "alive as of" updates, as Canada Jack has pointed out, there is often an assumption of famous persons being alive, whether they are or not. Usually this "alive" assumption runs out if someone is missing or hasn't been heard from for a long time...for example, the inventor of the 4-way traffic signal was last confirmed alive in 1947, so we don't assume he is still living.
The question, then, is WHEN do we administratively apply updates? You are correct in that there is a sliding-scale depreciation the longer it's been since an update, but you misunderstand cutoffs. Suppose someone hits a fly ball in a baseball game. If it goes 390 feet and the wall is 400 feet, it's an out. If it goes 396 feet, it's closer to making it, but it's still an out. If it goes 402 feet, it's a home run.
Likewise, there may be a sliding scale of value, but death or the assumption of death is an either/or binary. For supercentenarians on the GRG list, the general cutoff point is one year without an update. With a mortality rate of close to 50% at age 110, the chance of an unupdated 110-year-old being alive after one year is 50%. After that, the chance is less than 50%. Since the GRG list is basically an "endorsement"-type list, the burden of proof is upon the claimant; thus, the case may be booted from the 'club' if it gets stale. But for the unvalidated list, the point of the list is to serve as a "what if" addenda of cases that might be validatable, that might be still living, even if the burden of proof is less. How long does one wait on these cases? Generally, we have a 3-year system where if the claim reaches age 113, it goes to longevity claims, so that's not relevant. When you consider that more than 95% of claims that are validated are done so within 3 years of turning 110, it makes sense to make the switch at this point.
The greater issue is WHY you continue to cause trouble on issues that others already ironed out. I'll leave that for others to discuss. Ryoung122 04:13, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
John Bulten, If you knew a little more about the workings of supercentenarian age updates, you wouldn't be commenting the way you did. In case you haven't noticed yet, this has been discussed before. Living supercentenarians are updated and move accordingly up the list on an "if-still-alive" basis. This is continually done UNLESS there is OTHER EVIDENCE that the supercentenarian in question is NOT ALIVE. This is a rather unavoidable scenario; it even happens with the GRG. Stanley Lucas was listed on Table E at 110 years 159 days old on 23 June 2010 even though he had died two days earlier. If you really think the updating of supercentenarian ages is OR, that effectively means that the order and presence of supercentenarians on the list is also OR. Is it? Have a think. Stop barking at people like this. Quit talking and begin on the doing. Brendan ( TalK| ContriB) 14:58, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Limbo (No confirmation alive for more than one year; may actually be dead)
Ryoung122 02:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
No need to color in the Fannie Thomas case...there's no doubt she was in the top 100, regardless of the ten-day difference. 131.96.91.18 ( talk) 22:40, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
This occurred to me as well. But the solution I think is simple - rephrase the text so that the addendum reflects additional cases which would include a total of 100 cases with no disputes. So, the disputed cases would still appear - they could be valid claims after all - and the list would be 107 deep - until such time as the first disputed cases go to #107, at which time the list shortens to 106 and 107 is now omitted. Canada Jack ( talk) 17:07, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Proposing merge of these two - an urgent task I think if readers aren't going to be utterly confused. Oldest people begins by saying "this is a list". Itsmejudith ( talk) 09:05, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
To me this is a delete rather than a merge. But (IMJ please see Help:Merging) please continue discussion at Talk:List of the verified oldest people#Merge proposal, to which this is copied, and where my reasons appear. JJB 17:03, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Technically it's a redirect rather than a delete (those two are easy to confuse), but my meaning is that the oldest people article is so redundant already as to not need anything really merged. Section by section, it is almost wholly redundant with the following articles:
The list of successive oldest living man since 1961 (it should begin with Brett as the other list begins with Baker) could be made into a template "Oldest men", or could be a second table within "list of the verified oldest men", or could be deleted outright. That's really the only serious question prior to creating the redirect. JJB 17:19, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Do you people NOT KNOW the difference between "top ten" and "top 100"? The article "list of the verified oldest people" is an extension of the oldest people page, not the other way around.
Consider, for example, this article lists the World's Oldest Person (regardless of all-time rank) but the "list of the verified oldest people" does NOT.
Also, Itsmejudith begins by attacking a straw-man position. This article did NOT begin as a list, and just because someone said "it's a list" doesn't mean it is.
76.17.118.157 ( talk) 20:41, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
I created Wikipedia's coverage of supercentenarians virtually from nothing,and left after my preferences as to format and content of two key articles were dismissed by the more numerous and less knowledgeable.I think such coverage has grown far beyond what fits a general-knowledge encyclopaedia and is also unwieldy for those who wish to work on it.But I understand that Mr. Bulten has an agenda of blurring the distinction between scientifically verified longevity and legendary longevity...and there is simply no room for that.The most-concurred-upon cases deserve the greatest prominence.--Louis Epstein/le@put.com/ 12.144.5.2 ( talk) 21:36, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
You are still the same as ever, barking at others and finding non-existent faults with the longevity articles. Obviously you don't give a damn to what I say. It's because of my age, right? You pointed out previously that I was "too young", and then proceeded to put me on your wretched friends list. Wow, some FRIEND you are. Brendan ( talk, contribs) 01:44, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
JJB 03:06, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
--age when the person took the title --age when the person died --length of time the person held the title --place of birth --place of death or current residence
As Louis Epstein pointed out, HE started this article (or rather, its predecessor before this was forked out of supercentenarian) a long, long, long time ago. And while the issue of whether to use formatted tables or bulletted lists was one of form, it was not of substance. Most people agree that the lists are necessary and useful.
Second: the "redundancy" argument fails. THIS IS THE HOME ARTICLE. If you want to merge all the other articles into this one, that would be preferable than deleting this one, or even worse, merging this into a branch article.
But I think you'll find that the reason the other articles were created was because it was too cumbersome to have long lists (say, 100 oldest people) on one page. So, this list gives the reader the choice of either a summary, or they can click the WIKILINK for more information. Because, you know, this is WIKI pedia. The whole point here is the WIKI link...the ability to link to related articles quite rapidly. Ryoung122 05:55, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
I use Wikipedia - as I'm sure many people do - as a valuable knowledge resource. I don't routinely do edits nor do I have a knowledge of the site's policies. I have an interest in gerontology, and I use these pages as a resource: both these pages.
Quite often people will look at things like the oldest people article to get an overview of who are the oldest people alive, or who are the oldest ever recorded people. From there, they might like to look in more detail at the enlarged lists, to see who is the oldest person from their country, or see how many supercentenarians live in their country. Both pages help to raise journalistic standards for example - journalists writing a story about the 110th birthday of Mrx X from Timbuktu will be able to look at the oldest people page and be able to quote the name of Eunice Sanborn as the world's oldest person and Jeanne Calment as the oldest ever. They can then drill down into the list of living supercentenarians and find that Mrs X is the 3rd oldest person from Timbuktu.
Someone else used the example of the List of Justices of the US Supreme Court article. I've also more than a passing interest in the US Supreme Court and the Justices. People looking for information on the Justices will perhaps start at that page, then drill down into the 'time in office' article or the 'list by seat' article in order to get more of an idea of the changing face of the court over time. I find such lists to be very useful information resources, and I believe that's what Wikipedia is for.
There's possibly some merit in changing the name of the article, if a consensus of people feel that 'oldest people' is too broad for what it is ('lists of oldest people' perhaps, leading to 'list of living supercentenarians' and 'list of the oldest verified people ever'?), but merging or cutting back these articles would be losing part of a very useful resource of information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Melissa.vp198 ( talk • contribs) 18:19, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
The articles in question should not be merged. Canada Jack ( talk) 14:54, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
I would even go so far as saying that I can see it possible for successors of the two present articles to both be functional in WP. Judith and David's point, and mine, is that the present two articles are dysfunctional. The first solution that came to mind was: delete the oldest-man list for nonnotability as a list, and ensure the rest of the present "oldest people" article is available in the subarticles, and delete the article, referring its "navigation" functions to the template whose job they are. Another solution is merge this article into that article. Another is to rewrite that article in WP:SUMMARY (not top-ten) style, which Judith may hint at above. Another is to make it an oldest-living and oldest-man historical list, i.e., cut everything but two sections and expand those by merging in stub bios. But what is obviously going on is that entrenched editors believe that a list of top-ten lists and a single top-100 list, among others, are the only way to present this info. That position is a total WP:OR failure because there is no secondary source whatsoever that organizes the data into a set of top-ten lists and a separate top-100 list. The method of organizing data creates synthetic conclusions about the importance of the data and must be objective. So until the conflicted editors realize that top-ten lists are comfy-feeling but whole-cloth original synthesis of extant data, or they are made to realize that, the impasse continues. I will be happy to consider the merge proposal a technical failure while the problems it addresses, cited by the several of us, are fixed in other ways that eventually may wind up concluding in a merge. JJB 17:44, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Your opinion on top 10, top 100 lists being OR has been aired on numerous occasions. But virtually no one agrees with you on these points, so your best option is to realize that the "conflicted" editor(s) you speak of is you, not anyone else here. Since you have failed to gain traction for your argument, perhaps now you will do the right thing - cease beating this dead horse. I'm not holding my breath. Canada Jack ( talk) 19:39, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
I am not here to score points on semantics and definitions but may I point out how these tables are used by serious longevity researchers; and why there are separate tables. Data comes in in myriad ways, and is collated on either a verified or unverified living list. These lists are by nature real time and dynamic. They are of general interest to the public as in: “Who is the oldest living person in the world?” One of my interests is seeing that the data can be verified, recorded and duplicated as in any scientific or statistical record. But real insights in longevity research occur when the (dynamic) living pass to a (fixed) deceased list. These later lists show nodes or clusters of deaths; and it is these nodes that show statistical modes (the value that occurs the most frequently in a data set or probability distribution.) In such data, modes are more often valuable than means or medians, as they show us events that occur during the aging process. Currently, there are some very interesting debates in longevity research and having the data tabulated as above will be an invaluable aid in resolving those debates. There are some VERY GOOD REASONS why there are separate tables and I strongly urge the Wikipedia editors NOT to merge the tables. — Chris_Amos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.169.229 ( talk) 12:26, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
There are literally thousands of papers on this particular subject, and they have been covered in journals including Nature, Science, Genetics, Human Biology, Gerontologist, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences and the Population Association of America annual meetings. If you want a general broad cover, start with the web site “Demographic Research” produced by the Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research at www.demographic-research.org The most interesting development is the tabulation of life tables for the extreme elderly. Here is an example of a life table for a sample of 100,000 persons in the United States: [ [3]]
The basic algebra being
qx: the probability that someone aged exactly x will die before reaching age (x+1). px : the probability that someone aged exactly x will survive to age (x+1). px = 1 – qx
lx: the number of people who survive to age x (starting from a typical sample of 100,000): lx+1 = lx . (1 – qx) = lx . px lx + 1/lx = px
dx: the number of people who die aged x last birthday dx = lx – lx + 1 = lx . (1 – px) = lx . qx
tpx: the probability that someone aged exactly x will survive for t more years, that is, live up to at least age x + t years: tPx = lx+t/lx
t|kqx: the probability that someone aged exactly x will survive for t more years, then die within the following k years: t|kqx = tpx . kqx + t = lx+t – lx+t+k/lx
ux: the force of mortality, that is the instantaneous mortality rate at age x, or the number of people dying in a short interval starting at age x, divided by 1x and also divided by the length of the interval.
More advanced statistical analysis in longevity research can be found in varying United States Social Security Actuarial Studies such as: http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/NOTES/as120/LifeTables_Body.html – Chris_Amos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.169.229 ( talk) 06:36, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
Message for JJB
John, I draw your attention to the graph “Figure 5—Survival Function for SSA Population” in the last reference quoted above. What we are seeing here is the “rectangularisation” of the population curve. What this means is that we are seeing an increase in the survival rates for all age groups but not a corresponding rise in the final death rate on the x axis. We can see this expressed as a reverse parabolic curve. (We live in an age of parabolic curves and their blow-offs, eg the US debt crisis.) The big debate in longevity research is what happens when the curve p tends towards its limit. That limit being when the curve is minus infinity over zero time. That is when the curve is going vertical. In nature, either one of two things happens: There is either an increase in the age of survival or there is an increase in the general death rate. I point out a quote in the final reference that says: “That mortality rates are found to continue to decline, at every age for which adequate data are available, demonstrates that no absolute limit to the biological life span for humans has yet been reached, and that such a limit is unlikely to exist.” I believe that this is your position. Note that there is a very high probability that THIS IS INDEED TRUE. Therefore, I would think that it would be in your interests, debate-wise, to have such data published. — Chris_Amos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.169.229 ( talk) 00:01, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
I think the term a half reverse parabolic curve is better as we are dealing with a closed system with the curve tending towards zero on the y axis. Hyperbolic curves (usually made up of two curves) expand out towards infinity. Both have exponential components. 121.218.169.229 ( talk) 07:48, 16 November 2010 (UTC)Chris_Amos
I'm not exactly sure where to post this, given the screeds of text above, but if there's still a merge discussion I'm all for merging. Oldest people would fit perfectly here; there's no need to have two articles where one would be just fine. It does exactly what this article already does (talks about a certain subsection of oldest people), and it wouldn't be detrimental to add that information here; if anything, it would make it easier for people to find. And I'm also thinking of making a move request to "List of verified oldest people", to make the title more concise. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい) 17:37, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
MACC and MCLL aren't on the GRG list or the Louis Epstein list. jc iindyysgvxc ( my contributions) 00:11, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
But they are on the IDL database. Any problem? Brendan ( talk, contribs) 15:24, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Why were two of the archives deleted? jc iindyysgvxc ( my contributions) 00:03, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Everyone else on the top 100 list has a page. Shige Hirooka is now #95 and she still doesn't have a page...she needs a page. I'm just pointing that out. Jdisnard ( talk)22:50, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I meant living people, sorry...and thank you. I just wasn't sure if there was no reason for her to have a page or if no one wanted to because she is important but I guess I haven't really heard much of her. I just hope in the near future we'll know more about her. Jdisnard ( talk) 17:30, 28 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.88.163 ( talk)
Should Mathra Graham be "disputed? I don't believe the claim is disputed, only that her precise date of birth is not known, making her between 114 years and 177 to 208 days. I would change her postion to 114 years and 177 days and change the footnote to refelect this. Or, should we follow the source that "calculates" ca 180 days. In any event, her claim is not disputed. Alan Davidson ( talk) 02:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I think her claimed is "disputed" because the earliest record of her is the 1900 census match. There does not appear to be an early life record of her yet. DHanson317 ( talk) 09:07, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
The footnotes do not explain why she is disputed - or have I mssied something? I appreciate the previous discussion - but should this be reflected in the footnotes? Alan Davidson ( talk) 12:10, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
Since there are 9 disputed cases, shouldn't there be 9 proven cases listed in the addendum? I count only 8. 74.131.99.14 ( talk) 02:15, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Name: Fannie Thomas SSN: 550-80-8511 Last Residence: 91010 Duarte, Los Angeles, California, United States of America Born: 14 Apr 1867 Died: Jan 1981 State (Year) SSN issued: California (1965) up arrow Save This Record Attach this record to a person in your tree as a source record, or save for later evaluation. Save
Source Citation: Number: 550-80-8511;Issue State: California;Issue Date:
Ryoung122 12:30, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Now that Fannie Thomas is not on the 100 list, why do we have 7 disputed claims and 6 persons in the addendum? Talk 9:26, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
because that there are 7 disputed or incomplete cases above (top 100), then shall be 7 in the addendum, so there will be no missunderstandings of resders of the article, otherwise shall be there a special footnote, why there are only 6 in the addendum. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.179.202.101 ( talk) 13:51, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
I propose that the number of living supercentenarians should be recorded in words, as opposed to numbers, as long as the textual representation is one word only. We can have "twenty living supercentenarians", "seventeen living supercentenarians", and so on. However, if the number turns into a compound word, such as "There are twenty-one living supercentenarians", we should change that to numbers, so it would say "There are 21 living supercentenarians". As the current number of such supercentenarians is 7, I suggest it be written in words as it does not involve more than one word. Cases which involve "more than one word", are something like, let's say, "ninety-nine [99] living supercentenarians", or even something ridiculous such as "There are one thousand, seven hundred, fifty-eight living supercentenarians", which looks messy. It'd be easier in that instance to simply say "There are 1758 living supercentenarians". For now, shall we keep it at "seven", as opposed to "7"? → Bre nd an 13:00, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Rodriguez has no place on this list. This is for VERIFIED oldest persons. Rodriguez has not been verified. Only in Cuba is her age officially recognized; neither the Guinness Book of World Records nor any other organization in the world recognizes her purported age. Her cake was provided by the communist party. This is a sham by the Cuban dictatorship to promote its own interests. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Victoria h ( talk • contribs) 18:37, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
For those that are unaware, there is a proposal here that many of the regular editors of this article, including myself, be banned from editing any longevity related articles for at least 1 year after which they may request, once every 3 months, permission to resume editing. Most are also threatened with a 1 year "behavior restriction" for making "any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, any personal attacks, or any assumptions of bad faith". 3 guesses who is responsible for this. DerbyCountyinNZ ( Talk Contribs) 22:02, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
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There is an ArbCom case currently running that is related to this page and related ones: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity. Interested parties are encouraged to read that page as well as the subpages linked in its introduction if they wish to. Derby, if you wish to post notices about the ArbCom case to a few relevant pages, please try to leave a neutral notice next time. The first two sentences should be fine as a starting point. NW ( Talk) 20:49, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity/Workshop Ryoung122 04:44, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Talk: Longevity myths. Itsmejudith ( talk) 13:14, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
I personally think that until they're on the GRG list and Louis Epstein's list, MACC and MCLL should be removed from this list. jc iindyysgvxc ( my contributions) 13:34, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
This list should be stripped down to those that are confirmed as verified and not disputed cases. The rest can be moved to longevity claims. What do you think?-- X sprainpraxisL ( talk) 10:26, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
All of the cases on the page have been verified by our reliable sources, if the links are required, that is a relatively minor change. As for "100," there is nothing magic about the number, though it is I believe the largest round number which would have at least that many candidates appearing. IOW, the men's all-time list of verified claimants (by definition over 110 years of age) is somewhat more than 100 but not hugely more, certainly less than 200. Women? There are in excess of 1,000. So, while 100 is an arbitrary number, for the sake of comparing men/women/overall, it is a depth of greatest utility. Canada Jack ( talk) 17:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
If you are referring to Lucy Hannah, she is on this page from a reliable source: [4] As for the "depth" remark, I mean that for the sake of comparing male and female claims, one can see with a large enough sample here of where the trends in longevity are. Shorter lists would not be as useful for these sorts of comparisons as the sample size is smaller, and longer lists would not be useful as claims under 110 aren't generally checked for veracity, and there are only about 140 men who have reached 110.
On the basic issue of "who cares?" well, I'd say there are numerous lists at wikipedia which would presumably have a very limited interest. This page consistently gets some 2,000 views a day, with some days in the 5,000-7,000 range, so it seems enough see this page as of interest. I didn't see the need for the female list (it almost exactly replicates this page). Canada Jack ( talk) 15:03, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
I remember when the living people were bolded. Somebody decided to remove the bolding, making it more difficult to fine the living people. Any discussion?? Georgia guy ( talk) 14:20, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
Living people have a green background, so that they can still be recognized easily. In addition, and this is just my opinion, living people are by no means more important than the others, for the purpose of the page. However, if you happened to miss the whole story, there was an endless discussion (read: war) about this issue, during the last few months. It seems that bolding names of living people would be in contrast with some Wikipedia XYZ policy. You are more than welcome to start the battle all over again. Before doing that, though, make sure you can spare 8-10 hours a day of your time (as others WILL) to waste over these issues of the highest irrelevance ;-) Fbarioli ( talk) 19:50, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
This page asserts that these are the verified world's oldest people, but provides no citations for any, except the few where it asserts there are disputes. That's exactly backwards. Each item needs a citation. I've noted that with the citation template I've placed at the top of the page.
Just because a hobbyist or expert says so, and edits accordingly, doesn't mean the editor is freed from providing a source. The blanket statement in the intro that these are the verified world's oldest people because GRG (or GWR) says so turns this page into a web-hosting service for the GRG lists. I can see why GRG-volunteers would want to do that. Wikipedia reaches far more people than the GRG pages do. But why wikipedia should bend and break all manner of rules enforced elsewhere on the project in order to cater to these purveyors of hobbyist stubcruft is beyond my ken. We need cites to GRG and GWR. For the moment, at least, GRG is in a nether-category, experienced editors on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard have opined both ways. So for the sake of keeping disputes simple, I'm not bringing the "Is GRG a WP:RS" angle into this thread. But each entry needs a citation, not just the ones where there's some reported dispute. David in DC ( talk) 00:31, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Should there be a column indicating whether nor not a person was ever (possibly, in the unclear cases) the oldest living person in the world? And perhaps when? - Tournesol ( talk) 08:19, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
In 6 days time, rank 52 will have 4 people in it, including an unverified claim and (deities willing) a still-living person; the same will happen again 3 days later.
Anybody got any ideas/preferences/proposals for how this should be colour-coded?
I hope it's okay my dropping in to update it now and again - it's kinda satisfying keeping it neat and tidy.
Becca Beccaviola ( talk) 11:50, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
Her exact age is disputed but as this is only a matter of days she currently makes the table regardless so there is no need to include another person in the addendum (this will change when she approaches 100th place in the list but that's likely to be a looong way away!). Confusion arises with her being included in the "Disputed Age" category (highlighted in brown) along with those whose age, if not that listed, would remove them from the list, therefore requiring the addendum. Solutions? I suggest either removing or changing the highlighting as the note should be sufficient. DerbyCountyinNZ ( Talk Contribs) 22:39, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
I thought Graham was not on the GRG list - therefore they do not consider her "validated." If one of our primary sources doesn't list her then I'd say that is sufficient to suggest "in dispute." Canada Jack ( talk) 19:49, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Should Maria be added anywhere reguarding oldest people, there are reliable references out there that states that she has a pending birth certificate that if proven real would make her over 120 years old. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 05:32, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Again, this claim has not been verified as to whether she was indeed born in 1890. Which is why she is already on another page, here [5]. In terms of Brazilian claims, she is FIFTH on the list of cases reported in the past two years. There are an additional five cases with no updates in the past two years in Brazil, pushing her down to tenth in terms of claims from Brazil. In terms of the world, go here [6] cases reported in the past two years, she is EIGHTEENTH oldest. An additional 12 cases were reported but have not been updated in over two years, pushing Maria to 30th in the world in terms of claims. These are all cases with reported dates of births. There are many other cases where there is no reported date of birth. Which is why we stick to verified cases on this page. Canada Jack ( talk) 15:48, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Since there are six disputed people on the list of the 100 oldest verified people, should there be six people in the addendum? In other words, should Johnson Parks be kept on the Addendum list once Delma Kollar ages one more day? - Colslax ( talk) 02:36, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
Actually Martha Graham could have been as young as 102. Had she was 114 when she died, it would have meant that she would have had her last child at age 57, which would have been practically impossible back then. The addenum should be six cases, not five. And for the record, the Italian Wikipedia has six disputed cases and 100 undisputed cases.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.164.79.11 ( talk) 21:16, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
well, I tried to fix it but the intricacies of <refthingy> and what it balks at is weird. Williamb ( talk) 11:40, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Is there possibly a shorter, or at least somewhat more intuitive, title that we could use for this list? It seems to me that people unfamiliar with the subject would have a more difficult time finding this than it's worth. I can speak for my own experience, which was that I was searching for "List of oldest people"; I don't think most people who don't know this subject well will think of "verified" versus "unverified" supercentenarians. I don't want to put in an RM yet, I just want some ideas. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい) 19:31, 3 December 2011 (UTC)I should also add; while I initially searched for it at "List of oldest people", I realize that's too broad for the topic of this list. That is not my recommendation. 02:08, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
As it was raised in the previous section, I believe the list should be sortable. All of the columns could be made sortable and I believe that would add functionality for our readership. It would be necessary to use something like the {{ Sort}} or {{ Hs}} templates to assist sorting, but that's not very difficult to understand or implement. The only hindrance to sorting are the tied numbers in the rank column to which I propose: splitting them into separate cells and appending a superscript identifier of the tie (e.g. something like 53*, 53tied, or 53eq) with a footnote to the table describing the meaning of the superscript. Not using vertically-joined cells will also make it easier to update the table (e.g. when someone living equals someone deceased—for a day) as only the superscript need be changed (and not the formatting of the table's cells). I'm happy to do the grunt work in making the table sortable (here and on similar pages), but I'd like to get comments and suggestions first. Cheers. GFHandel ♬ 19:01, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
As there is occasionally some cross-over between the above article and this one regular editors may like to provide some input into the former as this has, again, been edited in a somewhat POV fashion which may not be consistent with that of the vast majority of users. DerbyCountyinNZ ( Talk Contribs) 19:09, 14 September 2010 (UTC).
I think that Shigechiyo Izumi should be removed. This year's Guinness book has already removed him. I thought that the only reason that he was kept on because Guinness still accepted his claim. DHanson317 ( talk) 00:54, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
I have been thinking about this for a while now, but every time I comer to this article, I can't help but notice the "Disputed" names on the list. If this article's title claims that the names on the list are "verified", then why are there disputed names on the list? Are these claims verified, and by what criteria are they still being disputed as to mark these names separate from the others?-- Jojhutton ( talk) 01:10, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
DHanson and an IP do not like my attempt to make this a true "list of the verified oldest people" rather than a top-100-plus-addendum arbitrary cutoff. Fact is, in 18 months on and off with this topic, I never until last month could even tell how to find a complete list of verified supercentenarians, and that's a problem. Hanson's suggestion that it appears in the overblown template did not help me to find it there all these months, because it doesn't advert itself as a complete list, but a giant set of overlapping lists. The idea of making a list of lists (by deathdate in this case) is very old and is well-used at list of centenarians and other articles following WP:SUMMARY style.
The idea that people only want to know about the top 107 cases is completely arbitrary. The complete list (as of 2007) appears at the GRG site on one page. Since WP doesn't fit it in one page, it should be laid out as a list of lists in standard summary style. To limit this title to 107 cases rather than to include (by reference) all cases over age 110.0, the long-established cutoff, is undue WP:WEIGHT and thus WP:POV. I don't see any reason for these reverts other than preserving a status quo thoughtlessly. JJB 04:12, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Derby, it seems you didn't look at my edit, because I agreed with you that WP doesn't fit it in one page. I believe the correct solution is a list of lists, not a 1000-member list as you suggest, nor a template. This is standard practice for many giant lists, like notable centenarians, Eagle Scouts, asteroids, and the like. If WP contains a set of articles that constitute a list of known verified supercentenarians, it is WP:AD and WP:COI to require them to use one or two POV sites for that list. Since your concern does not actually address my proposal, and since the reversions are contrary to NPOV, I am likely to try the balancing insertion again differently. Or perhaps you can review the edit and reinstate it yourself, thanks. JJB 16:24, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Too many subtle flaws in these arguments to address now, Jack, but I appreciate your not indulging in unsubtle flaws as I've seen elsewhere. JJB 18:02, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Jack, that was uncalled for, but I will state the subtle flaws anyway for those listening. First, yes, technically 110 is arbitrary also, but it's a longstanding consensus among gerontologists as to what point should be used at which we should take note (just like 65 is arbitrary for Social Security but notable anyway); also, technically even a top-107 list including disputeds (like the top-10 lists) being presented separately from the complete list is not completely arbitrary; but your exclusion of the complete "list of lists" is undue weight and contrary to the title, which should then be "the 100 undisputed verified oldest", or "oldest people at least as old as the 100th undisputed". Second, your statement about limiting the (recognition of the) "achievement" to the top-100 list places top-100 promoters (i.e., GRG) as the judge of who is recognized rather than source consensus that recognizes all supercentenarians. Third, your belief that 110th birthdays were unheard-of in certain eras is contradicted by the evidence, and if you wish to modify it to "verified" 110ths, it's only unheard-of because there was no formal definition of "verified" prior to GWR standards (that, or else it's not unheard-of because many reporters in prior centuries found these cases "verified" well enough for their own standars). Fourth, your position that the top-107 list takes no position on what age is notable is false, in that of course it sets an age, just like any list must, the age being whatever age the 100th undisputed case is today; but 110 is much simpler and better sourced and so a complete list should be included alongside, and the unthinking opposition to such an alternate list is strikingly protective of a single-POV take on this title. (On a side point, I'm glad there was at least some healthy hesitancy about the arbitrariness of 115 in that other list, but it has not spread to other arbitrary uses of 115 yet.) Finally, your last statement in combination with your prior seems to say that a list cutoff should be determined by achieving something, and that achievement should be as defined by demographers calculating trends: well, that would be fine if you could source it, but even if you did, NPOV would compel you to show all data presentations that different demographers have proposed as appropriate, and over-110 is the best and oldest presentation of this data. I may decline to reply to further subtle flaws. I was sincere about your not indulging in unsubtle flaws.
Anyway, to other editors, if you have some ideas for accommodating my concern that there is no summary list of all verified supercentenarians and no way for a reader to quickly establish how many there are, please tell me. Without a summary list, we have the problem that new editors might add a case (verified or not) in a death list, a country list, a war list, an occupation list, a claims/traditions list, or several of the above, without any agreed scope that there should be one base article for insertion and then additional insertions would be gravy. With agreed scopes, such as that the death lists plus the living list constitute the complete list of supercentenarians, people know where to look. JJB 21:20, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
There are a lot of problems with the above argument. First, yes, technically 110 is arbitrary also, but it's a longstanding consensus among gerontologists as to what point should be used at which we should take note. It may indeed be when gerontologists now take note, but I don't believe this is as "long-standing" as you seem to think. Only a dozen cases have been more or less accepted from people who died before 1960. By 1980, that list had expanded, but to only about 45 or so new cases. Now, gerontologists can correct me if I am wrong here, but it is really only since the explosion of cases - and we are up to something in the area of 1,500 confirmed cases - that the field started focusing on the 110-year cut-off.
I would not be surprised, given the explosion of cases, if a new cut-off emerges in the next decade or so of, say, 111, 112. Because with some 77 confirmed LIVING cases (compared to the historical 77th confirmed case, ALL-TIME, having only emerged in 1983), and the possibility of greatly expanded numbers of new cases, verifying everyone becomes unwieldy and, by definition, less notable.
Why underline this point? Because it is less important WHAT the arbitrary age is that someone reaches, it matters HOW MANY people reach that age and, therefore, how notable that milestone truly is. Running the mile in 3:57 in 1958 was an extremely notable achievement, not because it was a magical number, but because only a small handful of people had done it. Today? Since that time has been run hundreds, if not more than a thousand times, it is no longer notable, but being among the fastest 10 or 100 or what have you times IS. IOW, there is nothing intrinsic about the time run or the years lived, outside of how this compares to others who ran the distance or lived long.
Your comments seem odd and misplaced about "undue weight," etc., given to a list of 100 cases. First, you presuppose that by not including a complete list or "list of lists" (which exists on the bottom of the page, so is therefore not excluded) we are "excluding" some universally accepted "true" list of oldest people. But such a list does not exist. The GRG have DEFINED lists, for example, all supercentenarians, top 20 Japanese cases, living superc's etc. But they DON'T simply list 100-this, 100-that. ...your statement about limiting the (recognition of the) "achievement" to the top-100 list places top-100 promoters (i.e., GRG) as the judge of who is recognized rather than source consensus that recognizes all supercentenarians. This is odd - I am not aware that GRG has that particular list, or a series of 100-deep list. If I am not mistaken, they have a 200-deep list, at least on all people.
Further, the lists are not limited to simply what GRG has. As noted, several sources are consulted, GRG is not the sole source, and the manner in which THEY do the lists are not simply replicated here.
Third, your belief that 110th birthdays were unheard-of in certain eras is contradicted by the evidence... To me, this betrays your lack of time spent reading the various attendant articles. Only about a dozen cases of 110+ are verified from before 1960. And this is not simply because the "rules" for verification only came later. Much research has been done on earlier cases, many have been verified from the 60s, very few from before. Further, much research has been done on the general subject which confirms that many claims were exaggerated, some wildly, and once reliable records allowed verification and debunking, those claims were often shown to be false. But there are many pages dedicated to those older claims, and the claims which can not be readily verified or debunked. Which is why the lists here are limited to verified claims.
The practical problem, given the proven propensity of wild claims regarding age to be made, and the ability to verify those claims only emerging as record-keeping was vastly improved, mostly in the 19th century in some countries, is that including non-verified claims, or even claims which MIGHT be true, renders these lists meaningless as they don't record the actual proven lengths of human longevity. Longevity claims and longevity myths cover those areas. It is no mere coincidence, gerontologists argue, that the claims for the longest-lived people emerge from countries with poor record-keeping and a lack of an ability to verify those claims.
Fourth, your position that the top-107 list takes no position on what age is notable is false, in that of course it sets an age, just like any list must, the age being whatever age the 100th undisputed case is today; but 110 is much simpler and better sourced and so a complete list should be included alongside, and the unthinking opposition to such an alternate list is strikingly protective of a single-POV take on this title. Wrong. In 2000, reaching the age of 111 or so was "notable" in terms of the list. Now, you need to be 113 1/2 to hit the list. This reflects a shift in demographics which, some argue, is the true value of the 100-style list (comparing the woman-only to men-only lists bears this out). Sure, 110 is "simpler," save for the fact that it'd be 1,500 claims long. But, again, what is so special about hitting 110? It was special in, say, 1970. Even 1980. It no longer is very notable.
Finally, your last statement in combination with your prior seems to say that a list cutoff should be determined by achieving something, and that achievement should be as defined by demographers calculating trends... You have it backwards. There is no "definition" per se of what age one needs to be "notable," and it is not defined by the particular age on the list, it is defined by how old are the oldest people. Saying "110 cutoff" says nothing as, conceivably, there may be 1,000 people who reach that age at a given point of time, or there could be NO people at that age (as was the case in recent memory). What IS more significant is ranking the oldest people and picking a specific number of them to identify a demographic trend. 100 is a round number, arbitrary for sure, but that number could just as easily be 50, or 200, or a 1,000. For the purposes of wikipedia, I'd argue that 100 is probably the maximum. Therefore, if and when the list of living super-c's reaches 100, I'd argue we'd make it the "100 oldest living people" and not add more. Why? Because reaching 110 would no longer be notable.
Canada Jack ( talk) 22:52, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
...if news reported a 110th birthday and there were already 100 living, there would be no place on WP to put it and thus a determination that in this case supercentenarianism is no longer notable in itself, which would be bizarre after it's been notable in itself for so long.
This isn't "bizarre," it reflects the fact that sticking to an arbitrary age means that at one time you may have the case where few or no people are at that age and another time potentially hundreds. (GRG estimates some 450 or so super-c's alive, 77 currently verified.) Therefore "notability" should not be defined by living to a particular age, it should be defined as being one of a small number of individuals, that small number being the arbitrary element.
So, I will reiterate what I said above. The age 110 is an arbitrary boundary, one which, in verified terms, was in the not-too-distant past only exceeded very rarely, but which is now exceeded almost weekly, a relatively common occurrence. There are currently 77 living verified super-c's. The 77th all-time verified super-c died in 1983. Which underlines the arbitrary nature of the boundary. The value of a 100-deep list is that it reflects those who are at or near the pinnacle in question. Picking a particular age excludes those who may at one time be the oldest person (or whatever category) on the planet, and at another time the 1,000th. Using your criteria in the 60s, we'd have instances where there was no oldest person as there was no one over 110 alive! Indeed, with a mere three men verified over 110 currently alive, your approach implies that it is inconsequential to know who the oldest man is if that oldest man is not yet 110. Which makes no sense to me. People want to know who is oldest or among the oldest, not who is over some arbitrary boundary.
To underline, these pages are not supercentenarian lists per se, they are pages on extreme age.
Secondly, greatly expanding lists of those unverified claims renders meaningless the importance of verification. As is spelled out in other pages on the subjects, gerontologists don't consider most of those old claims to be valid for many good reasons - not simply because old records are considered not up to our standards. Once universal registration came into being in many countries, many claims of extreme age - MOST of them, I should add - were provably false. And the extreme claims started to dwindle in those countries. Which is why most claims NOW for great longevity come from countries with poor record-keeping, at least in the opinion of most gerontologists. But you seem to seek to reverse the onus here - from using evidence to prove a claim to demanding evidence on how we can dismiss unverified claims. That, simply put, will not wash with most of the editors on this site. Especially given that there are already pages on unverified claims. The field of gerontology is one where fraud, deception and simple error in terms of claimed ages was and is rampant, therefore verification criteria are by necessity more stringent.
Finally, expanding lists to be "complete" brings its own problems. For example, the list of women over 110 would be well over a thousand. The list of men would be something like 150. Is it of greater interest to know each and every of the 1,500 (or so) oldest women, but only a tenth of the men? Why not the same number for men, a list 1,500 deep? The answer is the particular age is arbitrary and this distorts the lists if applied. In contrast, an arbitrary NUMBER of claims NEVER distorts the data, never implies one list is more important than the other ("only" 150 men would be listed, 1,500 women implies that that list of far greater interest and importance) as long as that number is equally applied. I think it is appropriate to question what that number is, how deep the lists should be, but a list of 1,500 is way too long, and I believe most editors here would agree, and the lists would be of hugely differing lengths EVEN IF YOU ADDED UNVERIFIED CLAIMS.
In sum, the lists should stand at their current depth of 100; while super-c's are the ones most likely to be verified, that doesn't require us to exhaustively note each and every (or great numbers) of them; we should retain the sharp distinction made between verified and unverified claims and not seek to expand the current lists, nor mingle verified and unverified claims. Canada Jack ( talk) 19:23, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
I never suggested that 100-deep lists are somehow sacrosanct, just that lists should be of a certain length, not of a certain age criteria/on. Why 100? That is the number editors here seemed to feel was sufficient, there is no directive from the various sources on what is a "proper" length, so I'm not really sure where the argument that 100 is somehow POV. You seem to be arguing for an age cut-off list which I argue is POV - as the age in question is notable or not notable depending on the list in question. But while the specific number may be arbitrary, how does one come to a "NPOV" number? Is there such a thing? It's not a question you have answered adequately via the age-limit criterion as that makes for lists of wildly different lengths. And accusations of undue weight, etc/. To me, if a number is agreed-upon, that is fine. 100 is what that is now, 10 on some pages. But it could be any number/s as long as it is applied more or less consistently.
You say these lists are not supercentenarian per se, which may be true of some, but it's not true of living supercentenarians, which by your logic should take the top 100 living people NOW instead of waiting until they're all 110 to make the switch. Just another inconsistency to address sometime. Yes, this is true, though I'd argue for a 100-deep list if one could be compiled. In a practical sense, however, it can't be unless more than 100 living people are verified over 110. In several cases here, what would normally be a "100"-deep list or "10"-deep list is just the number of available candidates over the verified age - so there are only 3 men on the Oldest people page, though the list would max out at 10 if there were available candidates. There was a big debate over mixing unverified with verified candidates here a few years back, for national records as those under 110 might not be properly verified, so there'd be an odd situation of a 109-year-old on the national lists disappearing once they turned 110 until they were verified.
As for your overarching point of having complete data, I am not sure that is necessary here at wikipedia as long as we have links to those who compile such lists. It sounds to me like the page might simply copy Epstein, for example. It was for this reason a strong argument for removing the "living" list was made as it more or less copied GRG, that page has now expanded to include other claims. I know there are other pages on other subjects which were removed which mainly copied lists found on one or two sites.
So, I'd imagine you would get resistance to a proposal to have a "base" page of all claims from which the various pages draw their data, if that page is merely a copy of data from a single source like Epstein or GRG. And this is beside the size of this page. I personally don't see the need for this here, nor for the list links at the top of the page. So, my suggestion is to get enough editors on-side with your proposals before enacting them, not withstanding the possible pitfalls I have identified. Canada Jack ( talk) 20:50, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
Hello. I have never understood this ... and I am wondering if someone on this Talk Page can help me to understand this. Thanks in advance. On lists such as this (and the GRG list, etc.), I do not understand why ages are "calculated" according to "years and days" (as opposed to the more mathematically correct, "total number of days"). In other words, some "years" are 365 days; some "years" are 366 days. Since lists such as this rank people by how long they have been alive, why is it the industry standard, if you will, to ignore this basic fact that the word "year" has different meanings (365 days in some cases; 366 days in other cases)? In other words, why add in that additional margin of error in calculating ages? I have never understood this. I am wondering if someone at this Talk Page can help me understand why this is so. Why is it that people who study and document longevity (such as the GRG, etc.) turn a blind eye to this obvious (and easily corrected) method of calculating age? Thanks for any insights. This has always driven me crazy. Thank you! ( Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 01:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC))
Basically, because people mark their ages by years, not by days. Saying someone lived 40,000 days usually will elicit a blank stare. Saying they lived 113 years will get a different reaction. Further, the leap year difference, is only a single day and is WITHIN the margin of error when one considers the day-count accuracy, which is more like 48 hours. It is not an additional margin of error, at least, not necessarily. Two people of the same age by year/day count may be out by one day on day count alone, but that is still within the margin of error - it is not possible to know who is truly "oldest" if we don't know the exact time of birth and death. Further, we can't assume that the recorded date of birth was the ACTUAL date of birth, as, for example, clerical errors often occur whereby say "Wednesday" is assigned the wrong day of the month, or cultural differences are not taken into account, for example sunset marking a new day, or the absence of clocks at night to be able to determine what day a person was actually born.
In the end, these questions are somewhat irrelevant in terms of gerontology, as the main concern there is where the data is trending - how many people reach 110 now compared to 10 years ago, for example - not whether person A is in fact a day older than person B or not. Errors due to data mistakes or rounding are a given: it is assumed that these errors more or less cancel each other once you standardize what data is accepted or not.
The analogy I use is from track and field - there is no use fussing over whether a 100-metre race is accurately measured to within a single centimeter when your stopwatch can only determine times to the tenth of a second. The stopwatch's margin of error exceeds the distance margin of error. An error of a day in terms of leap years is within the margin of error due to time of day. Canada Jack ( talk) 05:08, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
(un-indent) Hi. I just cannot wrap my mind around this. Can you please help me understand all this? Thanks. Let's say that Person A is born on December 31, 1995, and dies on January 1, 1997. Let's say that Person B is born on December 31, 1994, and dies on January 1, 1996. (The year 1996 was a leap year, while the year 1995 was a non-leap year.) Person A would have an age of 1 year and 1 day, and he lived for 367 days. Person B would have an age of 1 year and 1 day, and he lived for 366 days. So, on this type of longevity chart or ranking, they are "equal" (both being at 1 year and 1 day). But, in terms of "longevity" (that is, how long they have actually lived on this earth before dying), doesn't Person A with the 367 days of living have "more longevity" than Person B with the 366 days of living? (These charts are measuring longevity, correct? That is, how long a person has lived.) Now, for all cases, the actual date of birth – and the actual date of death – will always have a margin of error of 24 hours or so (technically, it is probably 23 hours and 59 minutes and 59 seconds). On the actual birth-day, a person might be born as early as 12:00:00 midnight or as late as 11:59:59 pm. And we just don't know. But, regardless of that 23:59:59 discrepancy, they get the "credit" for that "one day" of living. And, similarly, the same thing happens with the death-day. I understand all of that. So, basically, we all acknowledge that a person's first day and last day may (or may not) be "partial" fractions of a true 24-hour day. That whole concept is imbedded as an inherent error in the entire system, as we do not record the actual time of birth/death, but rather we round it off to one specific "day". Now, let's get back to my example above, with Person A and Person B. We know that Person A has lived through the entire year of 1996 (all 366 days, at a full 24-hours per day). Plus, he has lived whatever fractional portion of the days on either side of the year 1996 (that is, the day he was born and the day he died). We know that Person B has lived through the entire year of 1995 (all 365 days, at a full 24-hours per day). Plus, he has lived whatever fractional portion of the days on either side of the year 1995 (that is, the day he was born and the day he died). So, we all acknowledge that we can never pinpoint any specific time or longevity on the first and last day of life (the birth-day and the death-day). That is a given and is "built into" the system. And, therefore, it is an inherent "equalizer" among all people being tracked for longevity. But, can't we also acknowledge without controversy that Person A has lived longer than Person B (within the confines and margin of error of the age calculation system)? (That is, we acknowledge that we can never know the precise timing of the birth-day and death-day, so those two "endpoint" days may or may not be fractional portions of a full day.) But, we know for a fact that Person A definitely had a full 366 days in between the uncertain endpoints, and Person B only had 365 full days in between the uncertain endpoints. So, Person A has lived a full 366 days (at 24 hours each), plus some unknown fractional portion of the birth-day and some unknown fractional portion of the death-day. And, Person B has lived a full 365 days (at 24 hours each), plus some unknown fractional portion of the birth-day and some unknown fractional portion of the death-day. That is, the birth-day and the death-day will always have an imbedded margin of error. That "error" is simply assumed for all individuals. But, we can count with certainty the (known and definite) period of living (i.e., longevity) in between the two uncertain and imprecise endpoints. So, Person A has the inherent room for error in measuring the exact longevity (period of living) on his birth-day and on his death-day. Person B has this same exact inherent room for errors. So, why are we "adding to" these unavoidable errors by "pretending" that the 366-day year of Person A is exactly equal to the 365-day year of Person B? I am just confused, and I would like to try to wrap my mind around this concept. I assume that there must be some validity to the rationale, since it is the standard method that all the groups seem to use. But, I can't seem to grasp why they are ignoring such a basic fact (i.e., that leap years are not equal to non-leap years in terms of how long a person has lived on this earth). Can anyone explain this in a way that I can make sense of? Thanks! I'd really appreciate this! ( Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 17:59, 16 October 2010 (UTC))
Can we please stop breaking WP:MOSBOLD that limits bolding only to certain items? How about a compromise to italics, which are permitted in this instance? JJB 18:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Yea, I don't even see your point at all -_- DHanson317 ( talk) 00:26, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
I have no opinion on the "bolding war" as such, but I would like to point out that WP:CONSENSUS does not mean "it will always be this way". Remember that consensus can change...and it often does. Frank | talk 00:54, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
The page itself is affected by whether or not these words are bolded. Not bolding them will negatively affect the meaning and readability of the lede here. Shouldn't we consider WP:IAR in this case? Brendan ( TalK| ContriB) 09:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
If this is as clear-cut as JJB suggests it is, I don't see what the problem here is and why there needs to be a big argument on this relatively minor point. If it needs to change as per policy, then it should be changed. Any motivation editors may identify on his part is a moot point if the policy is as JJB suggests. Canada Jack ( talk) 16:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
Contraindications
Use italics, not boldface, for emphasis in article text.
But this isn't "article text," it's a name in a list.
Further, the policy says use common sense and occasional exceptions apply.
It's clear that JJBulten is here only to be a bully, not to find consensus. Look at this passage:
"It is unwise to argue from what "we want" when the issue is what Wikipedians in general want as indicated by their policies. You won't want to get hung up on the little bolding issues when whole articles are at stake for nonverifiability and nonnotability, and I'm generally not going to be the one handing out WP:AFDs either. It is time for longevity editors to learn to roll with others."
He also is the FIRST to use the phrase "bolding war," and indicates he is stirring up more problems and finding "allies" to do so.
All this is smoke and mirrors that distracts from the core truth: JJBulten's ideas represent fiction, not fact; the past, not the present or future. Ryoung122 20:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
In other Wikipedia articles, the text and other information presented in the page is tailored to the subject itself in question. The information in it can change at any time, be it tomorrow or 200 years later. In contrast, the lede of this page is written based on irrefutable, solid facts, such as the fact that Jeanne Calment is currently the oldest validated person ever to walk the face of the earth. For other articles on Wikipedia, italics gives the emphasis needed most of the time. This is NOT the case with the lede here. The purpose of bolding those words is to highlight them and generally improve readability of the lede as a whole, among other reasons. In any case, the emphasis here is NOT on the fact that Eunice Sanborn, Walter Breuning, and others are verified, or that they are living, or that they have attained supercentenarian status. The highlight is on the phrase itself as a whole! If the rules of MOS really apply here, then let's go back and italicise the names of all living supercentenarians on the list, not bold them. Brendan ( TalK| ContriB) 01:00, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
Greetings,
When we see comments like this:
If you stick with me in maintaining policy compliance on the bigger issues, the little issues will be solved more easily. JJB 16:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
1. It is clear that Bulten is CANVASSING for support, a violation of Wiki policy. 2. JJBulten falsely views himself as some sort of "police" man on Wikipedia. He is not. 3. JJBulten continually violates policy. He has started edit "wars," threatened kids by pointing out their age (ageism), canvassed for support, and a lot of other things. 4. JJBulten has threatened others by quickly threatening to report them for blocks, rather than attempt to first achieve consensus. 5. JJBulten has misused terms such as "compliance." Wikipedia is not a democracy, but neither it is a one-man dictatorship. Perhaps JJBulten needs to read up on WP:OWN.
All attempts at compromise have been met with him not giving up anything.
Ryoung122 20:34, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
"... take a word to the wise: pick your battles wisely. This is a nonstarter. I'm sorry that you've been hanging out with editors who have not followed policy, but now's the time to be a quick learner." Excuse me, but whether or not I am following Wikipedia policies in your worldview, should not be used to comment on personality traits and the character of the editor in question. As I have warned JJB, this is very obviously a violation of WP:NPA. It's tantamount to saying that each and every single homosexual in the world is effeminate, basing your argument solely on their sexual orientation and nothing else. Is that fair? Brendan ( TalK| ContriB) 01:10, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
JJB, that's just an excuse to threaten me and state that the age of the user in question dictates whether or not they should be taken seriously on Wikipedia. That is, as Ryoung122 pointed out, AGEISM. If that really applied, then why are there still 8 and 9 year olds working right here on Wikipedia? Also, what "avuncular" belief is there? The narrow-minded belief that teens are more apt to learn debating has led you to make this comment. That's sad. Brendan ( TalK| ContriB) 01:22, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
Can someone please explain what the dispute here is? It looks to me like there is some discussion of bold vs italic, so I presume it is for the current date and the wikilink to the list of living supercentarians. If that is the case, I think neither of them should be bold OR italic. The wikilink will show up as any other one does; if the reader wishes to click through, that is their decision. As for the date, I don't know what policy covers it, but bolding the date isn't commonly seen that I know of. (I am only one editor, I realize.)
I think a good model is List of United States Supreme Court Justices by time in office. Clean intro, devoid of bold OR italics except for the part which mirrors the title of the page. Frank | talk 16:32, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
Why is the text bold again? It is completely against MoS. Can someone please explain to me clearly what they see as the logic for this? Thanks. Itsmejudith ( talk) 20:41, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
It appears this issue is largely one of being pedantic vs being disruptive/constructive. DerbyCountyinNZ ( Talk Contribs) 21:21, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I was first to call it a war, and now I'll be first to take it boldly to 3RR. 3O is only for a two-editor debate. To say this is a "common-sense" requirement and this is "not article text" is a complete declaration of victory of (small-group) personal preference over WP style. Thanks Derby for your support. JJB 13:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
I really do think they should probably on this list. If they are in the article "List of Spanish supercentenarians", then they should be everywhere else on wikipedia. They have been validated with a valid source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.50.204.87 ( talk) 19:48, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Why is that? Kama Chinen was about as anonymous as most people get. Anonymous or not, they have reached the Top 100 list, and they are validated. I don't know why there's an issue.
These two cases are not anonymous, but rather "name not disclosed". Their names are presumably known to the authors of the paper as well as the name of Joan Riudavets Moll who was identified in table 4 (p. 166) as J.R.M. (Temporary) privacy of the name should not preclude Wikipedia from listing the fact. Leob ( talk) 02:44, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Siamese. To me, the point of these lists is to identify individuals who have achieved the longest known life spans. If they are anonymous they can not, by definition, be identified. I think we can put a note under the main list saying several verified but unidentified people have been reported with the attendant details. Canada Jack ( talk) 16:06, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Okay, looking over the situation, the first question I asked was "is this information" verifiable in a reliable source? Unless I'm mistaken (and please correct me if I am), the answer to that question is yes... even though their names are not listed, the information that they exist (and their initials) can be verified and the source in question is reliable. So I don't see any Wikipedia policy issues here. So then I asked, "What is the purpose of this list?" The purpose, I believe, would ideally to be list the 100 oldest people who ever lived... and in this case the standard we are using is verification by "an international body that specifically deals in longevity research". Does this source qualify? If so, then they should be included, if not, then they should be excluded. I don't think anonymity is an issue... it's difficult to think of a realistic analogy... but whether or not their names are made public is irrelevant to the fact that they have been verified as reaching a certain age (again, contingent on this source qualifying under the page's guidelines for verification). If Jeanne Calment's claim had all the same evidence it does now, but no research body or news agency had ever released her name, she would still be the oldest person verified to have ever lived, and her exclusion on the basis of us not knowing her name would only make the list inaccurate.
A compromise, however, might be to include a footnote, especially if there is disagreement to the validity of the verification source. Canadian Paul 04:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Canadian Paul: anonymity should not be an issue. There is plenty of anonymous music composers, anonymous writers, etc. and they all appear in Wikipedia. The real issue is if the source is reliable. And, I may be wrong, but I am not sure the decision whether a source is or is not reliable is entirely up to the page contributors. Indeed, there are several other pages dealing with supercentenarians, and I do not think different pages should use a different policy. Usually, Guinness and the Gerontology Research Group is considered the main reliable source. The so-called Epstein's list is also referred as a reliable one. I am happy to know there is more out there. But I would like to have a more "universal" consensus. In any case, I strongly suggest to mantain a constructive discussion. Keeping reverting and re-reverting changes is not going in the right direction. If I remember correctly, once a change has been reverted for the first time, one should bring the issue to the discussion page without re-reverting, until consensus is attained. In the meantime the new Spanish cases should not be included. Fbarioli ( talk) 16:04, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I think these cases should be listed. If we think of credit ratings agencies (like Experian, Transunion, Equifax), the "big three" sometimes vary in their reports.
The IDL/Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research really is the most-respected age verification group in the field (however, their goal is to generate demographic data, not public records). The issue is "anonymity." The GRG/Guinness World Records focus on publicly validated cases, not anonymity.
Nonetheless, the GRG has listed "verified anonymous cases" in the past:
456 37 Japan NA Nov. 23, 1886 Dec. 19, 1996 110 26 O ? Japan
Thus, I see no reason why these cases cannot be listed. Wikipedia has a policy of "placeholder" for its list of most edits.
The point of including these cases is that it provides the best demographic data available. We know, for example, that Eugenie Blanchard has not yet surpassed Spain's oldest woman of all time.
Also, there is the possibility that the case was not anonymous but simply not reported in the media. Media report is definitely NOT the standard to determine verification.
The best choice is to include the information that is publicly available. We know the dates of birth and death, age in years and days, nation of death, and initials. We know the case was verified by arguably the most-authoritative source in the field. To me, the issue of sources should focus on whether the Epstein list counts or not. The IDL and GRG are well-established, as is Guinness World Records. Ryoung122 17:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
I think the real issue here is that, for some, a case with no name is like reducing us to a number; the human aspect is lost.
But I disagree. Serena Williams is #1 in the world even though she is not participating in the US Open 2010.
People can choose to be in the media spotlight, or not. There's been no news report on Lucy Hannah; the ONLY reason we know her name is the laws in the U.S. allow public access to the records. Whether a family's wish to be anonymous or not is not the legal issue. Kama Chinen's family desired anonymity, but the government of Japan had already publicly released the name. It therefore became public record. However, we don't see any photos of Kama at age 114, do we? Ryoung122 18:02, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Greetings,
In response to the above:
1. Yes, the GRG accepts anonymous validated cases, I already mentioned that.
2. The GRG did not begin tracking supercentenarians until 1999. Additionally, cases come from public records including news reports which are then verified through a documentation process (for example, finding birth, marriage, and ID records). The above anonymous cases were never reported in the media, thus the GRG did not know about them.
3. The International Database on Longevity uses the same document standards as the GRG, but the list is more complete because the records they gather come direct from government registries. The problem for Wikipedia is that the IDL values "anonymity" and for them, their main focus is demographic data (the complete statistical picture), not individual cases. The IDL allows information to be released for nations that allow public records access (such as the USA and the UK).
Ryoung122 03:29, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
What say you? Brendan ( TalK| ContriB) 16:05, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
The only problem I have with these new cases is that they move living people down a few places and people who were in the top 100 or the addendum are moved off the list. Has it been decided that the "anonymous" cases are staying on the list because I find it annoying when people put cases on, then take them off, then put them on again, and so on. Also, are their real names being looked into or can they be looked into? I apologize if I am only making this situation worse, I just don't like leaving anything unsolved. Jdisnard ( talk) 20:16, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
Greetings,
I'm not going to bother with reverting such a small issue, but "lives in" sounds better, and is shorter, than "living in the United States".
The whole point of the "living" designation is that it is PRESENT tense. One could easily say "she was living in Pennslyvania, but now lives in New York." Therefore, "living in" can be past tense, and is therefore less correct. Ryoung122 22:20, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
Apologies if I missed a discussion on this, but -- why does the country column need to say "living in" anyway? It's redundant, as the Date of Death column already says "living", and frankly I think it makes the layout look so unattractive that I feel compelled to write about it. I get that the reasoning may be "the column header says country of _death_", but when a living person already has bold text, green background, and "living" explicitly specified, I really don't think there's any confusion (or supposed prognostication) left to be avoided in that last column. If anything, why not change the column name to "last living in" or something? Javhar ( talk) 15:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
See the result of the edit warring case here:
Editors are advised not to do further reverts of bolding, in either direction, unless consensus is reached here on the formatting. If you cannot determine whether a talk page consensus exists, you could ask ask at WP:AN for an administrator to close the discussion. Admins may issue blocks with no further warning if the edit war continues. Even a single revert may be enough to lead to action. Thank you, EdJohnston ( talk) 17:01, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
As I have said before, the original form should be retained until consensus is reached to change it. I see no consensus for change, therefore we should get the old bolding back. Canada Jack ( talk) 19:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Derby is correct - I am indifferent rather than against. I said that if the policy is as iron-clad as JJB suggested, then remove the bolding. But subsequent discussion indicates this is not as clear-cut an issue as JJB suggested. It seems to me, that until an actual decision on what we should do here is arrived at, the page should be in its original form, i.e. with the bolds. Canada Jack ( talk) 14:20, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
I can't find any provocation for Ed Johnston's warning. This article doesn't appear to be on any edit probation, nor has he linked a discussion that says anything about "one revert and your blocked". This seems to be his own way of maintaining order, but as many of us veteren editors have seen, this is the type of admin behavior that always seems to end up at ANI. Ed Johnston may have good intentions, but I must remind him to take each instance of 3RR on a case by case basis, rather than giving everyone a blanket warning without consensus. That being said, is there a reason why there shouldn't be bolding in the lead? Seems pretty standard across all projects. Didn't see anything in WP:MOSBOLD that would lead me to believe otherwise.-- Jojhutton ( talk) 15:31, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Let's take that argument further, JJB. Why not go to ANY article on a living person, say Mick Jagger for example. Therein it states that he was born in 1943 and is now 67. But I've not heard him saying something in the press for a few weeks - how can we know he is still in fact living? I say it's time to apply your logic, viz: The paradigm should shift from "assumed living indefinitely (or for an arbitrary 2 years)" to "verified as of update date (with nothing said about afterward)" and forthwith indicate the last time a "living" person - ANY person - was reported to be alive. In the cases of very public people like the president of the United States, we can add nearly daily updates as he is constantly in the news. So "alive as of today/yesterday." But we can't be so confident with others. So Mick Jagger might be "reported alive as of September xx." Canada Jack ( talk) 16:15, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Then you agree it is compliant to assume notable people on wikipedia are living unless their death has been reported. In the case of Super-C's we have a slightly different situation. For one, our sources are frequently updated and THEY list people as "living" even if they may not have had an update. So while you may have a somewhat strained argument in saying that it is "OR" or what have you to suggest that, day-to-day, we can't be sure that person "x" is indeed alive, sources like GRG update their list about five times a month. But, in a practical sense, THEY can't be sure if any of the people have not died, unreported, in the past few days, indeed since their last reported time, within the year, of being alive.
Which brings up another point. People are taken off the GRG list if there is no confirmation a year after the last confirmation that they are indeed still living. So, not sure where this "two year" business comes from which you mentioned.
Further, the Wikipedia list is frequently more up-to-date than the GRG list. Almost invariably, when someone dies, they are removed from the WP list before GRG or Epstein.
So, while we can never be certain day-to-day whether a particular individual has died: a) this is of no particular concern on pages of notable living persons, otherwise we'd say "alive as of September 30th" or what have you, if that was the last "confirmed" report that, say, Mick Jagger was alive; b) if this is of no particular concern there, it should be of no particular concern here; c) our sources, like GRG, list people as being "alive" even though, day-to-day, they can't know that unless on that particular day (updates are issued for a particular day) a report has been received that some or all those people are in fact living; d) it is stretch to presume that it is OR or what have you to continue the assumption from GRG etc that the next day those people are alive, especially given that GRG frequently updates their lists (most recently six days ago); e) since we are concerned chiefly on whether people are listed as living when in fact dead, it must be pointed out that almost invariably people who die are taken off the "living" list BEFORE GRG etc updates THEIR lists, so it is ludicrous to insist in sticking to the last update from a source like GRG when here at wikipedia we are in fact ahead of GRG most of the time in removing those people who have been reported to have died. Canada Jack ( talk) 21:31, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Basically, no harm is done by assuming the default position that folks on the list who were alive yesterday remain alive today. Frank | talk 21:35, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
And the list is getting stale again. Brendan ( TalK| ContriB) 00:53, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
In short, it is possible an alternative path to compliance would be to adopt the source-based rule "GRG assumes living therefore we should". I am, however, questioning this rule due to inherent unreliability of GRG as an expert source for making such an assumption, and because GWR is a more reliable print source that does not make such an assumption. This might be a question for WP:RSN, but I think finding a consensus among ourselves between my WP-policy-based views and WOP's GRG-practice-based views should be done first. JJB 03:48, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
As to "alive as of" updates, as Canada Jack has pointed out, there is often an assumption of famous persons being alive, whether they are or not. Usually this "alive" assumption runs out if someone is missing or hasn't been heard from for a long time...for example, the inventor of the 4-way traffic signal was last confirmed alive in 1947, so we don't assume he is still living.
The question, then, is WHEN do we administratively apply updates? You are correct in that there is a sliding-scale depreciation the longer it's been since an update, but you misunderstand cutoffs. Suppose someone hits a fly ball in a baseball game. If it goes 390 feet and the wall is 400 feet, it's an out. If it goes 396 feet, it's closer to making it, but it's still an out. If it goes 402 feet, it's a home run.
Likewise, there may be a sliding scale of value, but death or the assumption of death is an either/or binary. For supercentenarians on the GRG list, the general cutoff point is one year without an update. With a mortality rate of close to 50% at age 110, the chance of an unupdated 110-year-old being alive after one year is 50%. After that, the chance is less than 50%. Since the GRG list is basically an "endorsement"-type list, the burden of proof is upon the claimant; thus, the case may be booted from the 'club' if it gets stale. But for the unvalidated list, the point of the list is to serve as a "what if" addenda of cases that might be validatable, that might be still living, even if the burden of proof is less. How long does one wait on these cases? Generally, we have a 3-year system where if the claim reaches age 113, it goes to longevity claims, so that's not relevant. When you consider that more than 95% of claims that are validated are done so within 3 years of turning 110, it makes sense to make the switch at this point.
The greater issue is WHY you continue to cause trouble on issues that others already ironed out. I'll leave that for others to discuss. Ryoung122 04:13, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
John Bulten, If you knew a little more about the workings of supercentenarian age updates, you wouldn't be commenting the way you did. In case you haven't noticed yet, this has been discussed before. Living supercentenarians are updated and move accordingly up the list on an "if-still-alive" basis. This is continually done UNLESS there is OTHER EVIDENCE that the supercentenarian in question is NOT ALIVE. This is a rather unavoidable scenario; it even happens with the GRG. Stanley Lucas was listed on Table E at 110 years 159 days old on 23 June 2010 even though he had died two days earlier. If you really think the updating of supercentenarian ages is OR, that effectively means that the order and presence of supercentenarians on the list is also OR. Is it? Have a think. Stop barking at people like this. Quit talking and begin on the doing. Brendan ( TalK| ContriB) 14:58, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Limbo (No confirmation alive for more than one year; may actually be dead)
Ryoung122 02:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
No need to color in the Fannie Thomas case...there's no doubt she was in the top 100, regardless of the ten-day difference. 131.96.91.18 ( talk) 22:40, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
This occurred to me as well. But the solution I think is simple - rephrase the text so that the addendum reflects additional cases which would include a total of 100 cases with no disputes. So, the disputed cases would still appear - they could be valid claims after all - and the list would be 107 deep - until such time as the first disputed cases go to #107, at which time the list shortens to 106 and 107 is now omitted. Canada Jack ( talk) 17:07, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Proposing merge of these two - an urgent task I think if readers aren't going to be utterly confused. Oldest people begins by saying "this is a list". Itsmejudith ( talk) 09:05, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
To me this is a delete rather than a merge. But (IMJ please see Help:Merging) please continue discussion at Talk:List of the verified oldest people#Merge proposal, to which this is copied, and where my reasons appear. JJB 17:03, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Technically it's a redirect rather than a delete (those two are easy to confuse), but my meaning is that the oldest people article is so redundant already as to not need anything really merged. Section by section, it is almost wholly redundant with the following articles:
The list of successive oldest living man since 1961 (it should begin with Brett as the other list begins with Baker) could be made into a template "Oldest men", or could be a second table within "list of the verified oldest men", or could be deleted outright. That's really the only serious question prior to creating the redirect. JJB 17:19, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Do you people NOT KNOW the difference between "top ten" and "top 100"? The article "list of the verified oldest people" is an extension of the oldest people page, not the other way around.
Consider, for example, this article lists the World's Oldest Person (regardless of all-time rank) but the "list of the verified oldest people" does NOT.
Also, Itsmejudith begins by attacking a straw-man position. This article did NOT begin as a list, and just because someone said "it's a list" doesn't mean it is.
76.17.118.157 ( talk) 20:41, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
I created Wikipedia's coverage of supercentenarians virtually from nothing,and left after my preferences as to format and content of two key articles were dismissed by the more numerous and less knowledgeable.I think such coverage has grown far beyond what fits a general-knowledge encyclopaedia and is also unwieldy for those who wish to work on it.But I understand that Mr. Bulten has an agenda of blurring the distinction between scientifically verified longevity and legendary longevity...and there is simply no room for that.The most-concurred-upon cases deserve the greatest prominence.--Louis Epstein/le@put.com/ 12.144.5.2 ( talk) 21:36, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
You are still the same as ever, barking at others and finding non-existent faults with the longevity articles. Obviously you don't give a damn to what I say. It's because of my age, right? You pointed out previously that I was "too young", and then proceeded to put me on your wretched friends list. Wow, some FRIEND you are. Brendan ( talk, contribs) 01:44, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
JJB 03:06, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
--age when the person took the title --age when the person died --length of time the person held the title --place of birth --place of death or current residence
As Louis Epstein pointed out, HE started this article (or rather, its predecessor before this was forked out of supercentenarian) a long, long, long time ago. And while the issue of whether to use formatted tables or bulletted lists was one of form, it was not of substance. Most people agree that the lists are necessary and useful.
Second: the "redundancy" argument fails. THIS IS THE HOME ARTICLE. If you want to merge all the other articles into this one, that would be preferable than deleting this one, or even worse, merging this into a branch article.
But I think you'll find that the reason the other articles were created was because it was too cumbersome to have long lists (say, 100 oldest people) on one page. So, this list gives the reader the choice of either a summary, or they can click the WIKILINK for more information. Because, you know, this is WIKI pedia. The whole point here is the WIKI link...the ability to link to related articles quite rapidly. Ryoung122 05:55, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
I use Wikipedia - as I'm sure many people do - as a valuable knowledge resource. I don't routinely do edits nor do I have a knowledge of the site's policies. I have an interest in gerontology, and I use these pages as a resource: both these pages.
Quite often people will look at things like the oldest people article to get an overview of who are the oldest people alive, or who are the oldest ever recorded people. From there, they might like to look in more detail at the enlarged lists, to see who is the oldest person from their country, or see how many supercentenarians live in their country. Both pages help to raise journalistic standards for example - journalists writing a story about the 110th birthday of Mrx X from Timbuktu will be able to look at the oldest people page and be able to quote the name of Eunice Sanborn as the world's oldest person and Jeanne Calment as the oldest ever. They can then drill down into the list of living supercentenarians and find that Mrs X is the 3rd oldest person from Timbuktu.
Someone else used the example of the List of Justices of the US Supreme Court article. I've also more than a passing interest in the US Supreme Court and the Justices. People looking for information on the Justices will perhaps start at that page, then drill down into the 'time in office' article or the 'list by seat' article in order to get more of an idea of the changing face of the court over time. I find such lists to be very useful information resources, and I believe that's what Wikipedia is for.
There's possibly some merit in changing the name of the article, if a consensus of people feel that 'oldest people' is too broad for what it is ('lists of oldest people' perhaps, leading to 'list of living supercentenarians' and 'list of the oldest verified people ever'?), but merging or cutting back these articles would be losing part of a very useful resource of information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Melissa.vp198 ( talk • contribs) 18:19, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
The articles in question should not be merged. Canada Jack ( talk) 14:54, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
I would even go so far as saying that I can see it possible for successors of the two present articles to both be functional in WP. Judith and David's point, and mine, is that the present two articles are dysfunctional. The first solution that came to mind was: delete the oldest-man list for nonnotability as a list, and ensure the rest of the present "oldest people" article is available in the subarticles, and delete the article, referring its "navigation" functions to the template whose job they are. Another solution is merge this article into that article. Another is to rewrite that article in WP:SUMMARY (not top-ten) style, which Judith may hint at above. Another is to make it an oldest-living and oldest-man historical list, i.e., cut everything but two sections and expand those by merging in stub bios. But what is obviously going on is that entrenched editors believe that a list of top-ten lists and a single top-100 list, among others, are the only way to present this info. That position is a total WP:OR failure because there is no secondary source whatsoever that organizes the data into a set of top-ten lists and a separate top-100 list. The method of organizing data creates synthetic conclusions about the importance of the data and must be objective. So until the conflicted editors realize that top-ten lists are comfy-feeling but whole-cloth original synthesis of extant data, or they are made to realize that, the impasse continues. I will be happy to consider the merge proposal a technical failure while the problems it addresses, cited by the several of us, are fixed in other ways that eventually may wind up concluding in a merge. JJB 17:44, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Your opinion on top 10, top 100 lists being OR has been aired on numerous occasions. But virtually no one agrees with you on these points, so your best option is to realize that the "conflicted" editor(s) you speak of is you, not anyone else here. Since you have failed to gain traction for your argument, perhaps now you will do the right thing - cease beating this dead horse. I'm not holding my breath. Canada Jack ( talk) 19:39, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
I am not here to score points on semantics and definitions but may I point out how these tables are used by serious longevity researchers; and why there are separate tables. Data comes in in myriad ways, and is collated on either a verified or unverified living list. These lists are by nature real time and dynamic. They are of general interest to the public as in: “Who is the oldest living person in the world?” One of my interests is seeing that the data can be verified, recorded and duplicated as in any scientific or statistical record. But real insights in longevity research occur when the (dynamic) living pass to a (fixed) deceased list. These later lists show nodes or clusters of deaths; and it is these nodes that show statistical modes (the value that occurs the most frequently in a data set or probability distribution.) In such data, modes are more often valuable than means or medians, as they show us events that occur during the aging process. Currently, there are some very interesting debates in longevity research and having the data tabulated as above will be an invaluable aid in resolving those debates. There are some VERY GOOD REASONS why there are separate tables and I strongly urge the Wikipedia editors NOT to merge the tables. — Chris_Amos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.169.229 ( talk) 12:26, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
There are literally thousands of papers on this particular subject, and they have been covered in journals including Nature, Science, Genetics, Human Biology, Gerontologist, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences and the Population Association of America annual meetings. If you want a general broad cover, start with the web site “Demographic Research” produced by the Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research at www.demographic-research.org The most interesting development is the tabulation of life tables for the extreme elderly. Here is an example of a life table for a sample of 100,000 persons in the United States: [ [3]]
The basic algebra being
qx: the probability that someone aged exactly x will die before reaching age (x+1). px : the probability that someone aged exactly x will survive to age (x+1). px = 1 – qx
lx: the number of people who survive to age x (starting from a typical sample of 100,000): lx+1 = lx . (1 – qx) = lx . px lx + 1/lx = px
dx: the number of people who die aged x last birthday dx = lx – lx + 1 = lx . (1 – px) = lx . qx
tpx: the probability that someone aged exactly x will survive for t more years, that is, live up to at least age x + t years: tPx = lx+t/lx
t|kqx: the probability that someone aged exactly x will survive for t more years, then die within the following k years: t|kqx = tpx . kqx + t = lx+t – lx+t+k/lx
ux: the force of mortality, that is the instantaneous mortality rate at age x, or the number of people dying in a short interval starting at age x, divided by 1x and also divided by the length of the interval.
More advanced statistical analysis in longevity research can be found in varying United States Social Security Actuarial Studies such as: http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/NOTES/as120/LifeTables_Body.html – Chris_Amos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.169.229 ( talk) 06:36, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
Message for JJB
John, I draw your attention to the graph “Figure 5—Survival Function for SSA Population” in the last reference quoted above. What we are seeing here is the “rectangularisation” of the population curve. What this means is that we are seeing an increase in the survival rates for all age groups but not a corresponding rise in the final death rate on the x axis. We can see this expressed as a reverse parabolic curve. (We live in an age of parabolic curves and their blow-offs, eg the US debt crisis.) The big debate in longevity research is what happens when the curve p tends towards its limit. That limit being when the curve is minus infinity over zero time. That is when the curve is going vertical. In nature, either one of two things happens: There is either an increase in the age of survival or there is an increase in the general death rate. I point out a quote in the final reference that says: “That mortality rates are found to continue to decline, at every age for which adequate data are available, demonstrates that no absolute limit to the biological life span for humans has yet been reached, and that such a limit is unlikely to exist.” I believe that this is your position. Note that there is a very high probability that THIS IS INDEED TRUE. Therefore, I would think that it would be in your interests, debate-wise, to have such data published. — Chris_Amos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.169.229 ( talk) 00:01, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
I think the term a half reverse parabolic curve is better as we are dealing with a closed system with the curve tending towards zero on the y axis. Hyperbolic curves (usually made up of two curves) expand out towards infinity. Both have exponential components. 121.218.169.229 ( talk) 07:48, 16 November 2010 (UTC)Chris_Amos
I'm not exactly sure where to post this, given the screeds of text above, but if there's still a merge discussion I'm all for merging. Oldest people would fit perfectly here; there's no need to have two articles where one would be just fine. It does exactly what this article already does (talks about a certain subsection of oldest people), and it wouldn't be detrimental to add that information here; if anything, it would make it easier for people to find. And I'm also thinking of making a move request to "List of verified oldest people", to make the title more concise. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい) 17:37, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
MACC and MCLL aren't on the GRG list or the Louis Epstein list. jc iindyysgvxc ( my contributions) 00:11, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
But they are on the IDL database. Any problem? Brendan ( talk, contribs) 15:24, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Why were two of the archives deleted? jc iindyysgvxc ( my contributions) 00:03, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Everyone else on the top 100 list has a page. Shige Hirooka is now #95 and she still doesn't have a page...she needs a page. I'm just pointing that out. Jdisnard ( talk)22:50, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I meant living people, sorry...and thank you. I just wasn't sure if there was no reason for her to have a page or if no one wanted to because she is important but I guess I haven't really heard much of her. I just hope in the near future we'll know more about her. Jdisnard ( talk) 17:30, 28 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.88.163 ( talk)
Should Mathra Graham be "disputed? I don't believe the claim is disputed, only that her precise date of birth is not known, making her between 114 years and 177 to 208 days. I would change her postion to 114 years and 177 days and change the footnote to refelect this. Or, should we follow the source that "calculates" ca 180 days. In any event, her claim is not disputed. Alan Davidson ( talk) 02:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I think her claimed is "disputed" because the earliest record of her is the 1900 census match. There does not appear to be an early life record of her yet. DHanson317 ( talk) 09:07, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
The footnotes do not explain why she is disputed - or have I mssied something? I appreciate the previous discussion - but should this be reflected in the footnotes? Alan Davidson ( talk) 12:10, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
Since there are 9 disputed cases, shouldn't there be 9 proven cases listed in the addendum? I count only 8. 74.131.99.14 ( talk) 02:15, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Name: Fannie Thomas SSN: 550-80-8511 Last Residence: 91010 Duarte, Los Angeles, California, United States of America Born: 14 Apr 1867 Died: Jan 1981 State (Year) SSN issued: California (1965) up arrow Save This Record Attach this record to a person in your tree as a source record, or save for later evaluation. Save
Source Citation: Number: 550-80-8511;Issue State: California;Issue Date:
Ryoung122 12:30, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Now that Fannie Thomas is not on the 100 list, why do we have 7 disputed claims and 6 persons in the addendum? Talk 9:26, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
because that there are 7 disputed or incomplete cases above (top 100), then shall be 7 in the addendum, so there will be no missunderstandings of resders of the article, otherwise shall be there a special footnote, why there are only 6 in the addendum. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.179.202.101 ( talk) 13:51, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
I propose that the number of living supercentenarians should be recorded in words, as opposed to numbers, as long as the textual representation is one word only. We can have "twenty living supercentenarians", "seventeen living supercentenarians", and so on. However, if the number turns into a compound word, such as "There are twenty-one living supercentenarians", we should change that to numbers, so it would say "There are 21 living supercentenarians". As the current number of such supercentenarians is 7, I suggest it be written in words as it does not involve more than one word. Cases which involve "more than one word", are something like, let's say, "ninety-nine [99] living supercentenarians", or even something ridiculous such as "There are one thousand, seven hundred, fifty-eight living supercentenarians", which looks messy. It'd be easier in that instance to simply say "There are 1758 living supercentenarians". For now, shall we keep it at "seven", as opposed to "7"? → Bre nd an 13:00, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Rodriguez has no place on this list. This is for VERIFIED oldest persons. Rodriguez has not been verified. Only in Cuba is her age officially recognized; neither the Guinness Book of World Records nor any other organization in the world recognizes her purported age. Her cake was provided by the communist party. This is a sham by the Cuban dictatorship to promote its own interests. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Victoria h ( talk • contribs) 18:37, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
For those that are unaware, there is a proposal here that many of the regular editors of this article, including myself, be banned from editing any longevity related articles for at least 1 year after which they may request, once every 3 months, permission to resume editing. Most are also threatened with a 1 year "behavior restriction" for making "any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, any personal attacks, or any assumptions of bad faith". 3 guesses who is responsible for this. DerbyCountyinNZ ( Talk Contribs) 22:02, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
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There is an ArbCom case currently running that is related to this page and related ones: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity. Interested parties are encouraged to read that page as well as the subpages linked in its introduction if they wish to. Derby, if you wish to post notices about the ArbCom case to a few relevant pages, please try to leave a neutral notice next time. The first two sentences should be fine as a starting point. NW ( Talk) 20:49, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity/Workshop Ryoung122 04:44, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Talk: Longevity myths. Itsmejudith ( talk) 13:14, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
I personally think that until they're on the GRG list and Louis Epstein's list, MACC and MCLL should be removed from this list. jc iindyysgvxc ( my contributions) 13:34, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
This list should be stripped down to those that are confirmed as verified and not disputed cases. The rest can be moved to longevity claims. What do you think?-- X sprainpraxisL ( talk) 10:26, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
All of the cases on the page have been verified by our reliable sources, if the links are required, that is a relatively minor change. As for "100," there is nothing magic about the number, though it is I believe the largest round number which would have at least that many candidates appearing. IOW, the men's all-time list of verified claimants (by definition over 110 years of age) is somewhat more than 100 but not hugely more, certainly less than 200. Women? There are in excess of 1,000. So, while 100 is an arbitrary number, for the sake of comparing men/women/overall, it is a depth of greatest utility. Canada Jack ( talk) 17:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
If you are referring to Lucy Hannah, she is on this page from a reliable source: [4] As for the "depth" remark, I mean that for the sake of comparing male and female claims, one can see with a large enough sample here of where the trends in longevity are. Shorter lists would not be as useful for these sorts of comparisons as the sample size is smaller, and longer lists would not be useful as claims under 110 aren't generally checked for veracity, and there are only about 140 men who have reached 110.
On the basic issue of "who cares?" well, I'd say there are numerous lists at wikipedia which would presumably have a very limited interest. This page consistently gets some 2,000 views a day, with some days in the 5,000-7,000 range, so it seems enough see this page as of interest. I didn't see the need for the female list (it almost exactly replicates this page). Canada Jack ( talk) 15:03, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
I remember when the living people were bolded. Somebody decided to remove the bolding, making it more difficult to fine the living people. Any discussion?? Georgia guy ( talk) 14:20, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
Living people have a green background, so that they can still be recognized easily. In addition, and this is just my opinion, living people are by no means more important than the others, for the purpose of the page. However, if you happened to miss the whole story, there was an endless discussion (read: war) about this issue, during the last few months. It seems that bolding names of living people would be in contrast with some Wikipedia XYZ policy. You are more than welcome to start the battle all over again. Before doing that, though, make sure you can spare 8-10 hours a day of your time (as others WILL) to waste over these issues of the highest irrelevance ;-) Fbarioli ( talk) 19:50, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
This page asserts that these are the verified world's oldest people, but provides no citations for any, except the few where it asserts there are disputes. That's exactly backwards. Each item needs a citation. I've noted that with the citation template I've placed at the top of the page.
Just because a hobbyist or expert says so, and edits accordingly, doesn't mean the editor is freed from providing a source. The blanket statement in the intro that these are the verified world's oldest people because GRG (or GWR) says so turns this page into a web-hosting service for the GRG lists. I can see why GRG-volunteers would want to do that. Wikipedia reaches far more people than the GRG pages do. But why wikipedia should bend and break all manner of rules enforced elsewhere on the project in order to cater to these purveyors of hobbyist stubcruft is beyond my ken. We need cites to GRG and GWR. For the moment, at least, GRG is in a nether-category, experienced editors on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard have opined both ways. So for the sake of keeping disputes simple, I'm not bringing the "Is GRG a WP:RS" angle into this thread. But each entry needs a citation, not just the ones where there's some reported dispute. David in DC ( talk) 00:31, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Should there be a column indicating whether nor not a person was ever (possibly, in the unclear cases) the oldest living person in the world? And perhaps when? - Tournesol ( talk) 08:19, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
In 6 days time, rank 52 will have 4 people in it, including an unverified claim and (deities willing) a still-living person; the same will happen again 3 days later.
Anybody got any ideas/preferences/proposals for how this should be colour-coded?
I hope it's okay my dropping in to update it now and again - it's kinda satisfying keeping it neat and tidy.
Becca Beccaviola ( talk) 11:50, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
Her exact age is disputed but as this is only a matter of days she currently makes the table regardless so there is no need to include another person in the addendum (this will change when she approaches 100th place in the list but that's likely to be a looong way away!). Confusion arises with her being included in the "Disputed Age" category (highlighted in brown) along with those whose age, if not that listed, would remove them from the list, therefore requiring the addendum. Solutions? I suggest either removing or changing the highlighting as the note should be sufficient. DerbyCountyinNZ ( Talk Contribs) 22:39, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
I thought Graham was not on the GRG list - therefore they do not consider her "validated." If one of our primary sources doesn't list her then I'd say that is sufficient to suggest "in dispute." Canada Jack ( talk) 19:49, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Should Maria be added anywhere reguarding oldest people, there are reliable references out there that states that she has a pending birth certificate that if proven real would make her over 120 years old. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 05:32, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Again, this claim has not been verified as to whether she was indeed born in 1890. Which is why she is already on another page, here [5]. In terms of Brazilian claims, she is FIFTH on the list of cases reported in the past two years. There are an additional five cases with no updates in the past two years in Brazil, pushing her down to tenth in terms of claims from Brazil. In terms of the world, go here [6] cases reported in the past two years, she is EIGHTEENTH oldest. An additional 12 cases were reported but have not been updated in over two years, pushing Maria to 30th in the world in terms of claims. These are all cases with reported dates of births. There are many other cases where there is no reported date of birth. Which is why we stick to verified cases on this page. Canada Jack ( talk) 15:48, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Since there are six disputed people on the list of the 100 oldest verified people, should there be six people in the addendum? In other words, should Johnson Parks be kept on the Addendum list once Delma Kollar ages one more day? - Colslax ( talk) 02:36, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
Actually Martha Graham could have been as young as 102. Had she was 114 when she died, it would have meant that she would have had her last child at age 57, which would have been practically impossible back then. The addenum should be six cases, not five. And for the record, the Italian Wikipedia has six disputed cases and 100 undisputed cases.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.164.79.11 ( talk) 21:16, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
well, I tried to fix it but the intricacies of <refthingy> and what it balks at is weird. Williamb ( talk) 11:40, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Is there possibly a shorter, or at least somewhat more intuitive, title that we could use for this list? It seems to me that people unfamiliar with the subject would have a more difficult time finding this than it's worth. I can speak for my own experience, which was that I was searching for "List of oldest people"; I don't think most people who don't know this subject well will think of "verified" versus "unverified" supercentenarians. I don't want to put in an RM yet, I just want some ideas. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい) 19:31, 3 December 2011 (UTC)I should also add; while I initially searched for it at "List of oldest people", I realize that's too broad for the topic of this list. That is not my recommendation. 02:08, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
As it was raised in the previous section, I believe the list should be sortable. All of the columns could be made sortable and I believe that would add functionality for our readership. It would be necessary to use something like the {{ Sort}} or {{ Hs}} templates to assist sorting, but that's not very difficult to understand or implement. The only hindrance to sorting are the tied numbers in the rank column to which I propose: splitting them into separate cells and appending a superscript identifier of the tie (e.g. something like 53*, 53tied, or 53eq) with a footnote to the table describing the meaning of the superscript. Not using vertically-joined cells will also make it easier to update the table (e.g. when someone living equals someone deceased—for a day) as only the superscript need be changed (and not the formatting of the table's cells). I'm happy to do the grunt work in making the table sortable (here and on similar pages), but I'd like to get comments and suggestions first. Cheers. GFHandel ♬ 19:01, 17 January 2012 (UTC)