| This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of supporting characters in ER redirect. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
| Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
 | This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
People SERIOUSLY need to use spell check if they're going to submit information on wikiP. It's looks pretty ridiculous when people can't spell, and even more frustrating for the rest of us who have to go and fix their mistakes. So please USE SPELL CHECK before you "SAVE PAGE." (e.g.: Phsychiatri... Yeah...it's "psychiatry.") 66.218.202.75 ( talk) 03:48, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't a character like Harold be in the list of minor doctors instead of this list? He was in almost a dozen episodes and the focus of multiple storylines, not just a random recurring character like most on this list. - Dravecky ( talk) 02:22, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Hey, I just wanted to know why did the Catherine Banfield's individual page has been deleted and redirected to this page. She is a lead role character, meaning that she, like all the other 25 regular characters deserves to have her own page. She definitively is not a supporting character this season.
Cheers
Takeit10 (
talk) 16:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
None of this info is cited... is there a rationale behind this?-- Ender The Xenocide | ( Talk | Contribs) 05:11, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
As you can see, I've uploaded the rest of the images of the characters. Any critics or suggestions? And another point: Am I the only one to think that the page became way too extense with all the supporting charactares together? Shoudn't they be separated like before? Takeit10 ( talk) 21:07, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
- I've removed all of the images. This type of identification usage is list articles is excessive. See the section in the non-free content article. We don't simply have a non-free image of each and every character. There must be some compelling reason that the image is needed - identification of a particular visual style, sourced commentary about the appearance of the character etc. - Peripitus (Talk) 00:57, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Not a steady enough viewer of ER these days to write it up myself, but obviously this article's missing desk clerk / ex-con Randi - played by Kristin Minter. Website shows many memorable scenes including her use of Kerry Weaver's crutch to beat an escaped, violent prisoner. 98.194.237.126 ( talk) 22:24, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
I think, if someone wanted to put the time into doing this, we could split this page into four different pages: Desk Clerks, Secondary Doctors, Seconday Nurses, and Family Members of Staff. In doing this, we could go into more detail into each area and list all characters in these catagories, because I can think of at least two desk clerks who are not on this list, and there are prolly plenty of nurses and secondary doctors who also aren't on this list. And practically no family members. Thoughts? J52y ( talk) 08:20, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with you. I think that the article got way too long the way it is right now. Takeit10 ( talk) 01:26, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- So it seems that the subarticles are all in place but attempts to remove the information from this parent article are being reverted with the edit summary "Reverted unexplained removal of content" by both Lord Opeth and Neelanddave. Unfortunately this means that there are two sets of the same content floating around. Seeing as the edit summary states that the removal of content is unexplained I'm going to press on with trying to move the duplicated content under the assumption that these reverts are being made because of a lack of understanding rather than because of an actual opposition to the moving of content. Therefore, I'm going to attempt tidying this up again and will point people here in my edit summary as I think this serves quite well as an explanation for why these edits have been made by myself and J52y. Obviously if there is actual objection to the splitting off of the content then we need to stop editing and engage in further discussion.-- 88.105.230.212 ( talk) 16:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- Oh dear, experienced some server issues while making my last set of edits and appear to have been logged out. I am editing from IP:88.105.230.212 and I have made the last edit to this article and the previous edit to this associated talk page. Sorry for any confusion.--
Opark 77 (
talk) 16:09, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- I have no objection to splitting off the content into different pages. However, if we do that I think this article should be renamed to List of guest appearances in ER to reflect its current content. We can use cats and nav boxes to connect the articles rather than the current setup. An article that just links to main articles with no prose under the headings seems pointless and unprofessional in presentation. Neeladave ( talk) 19:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- Another thought has occured to me. I think more complete lists without biographical information could be highly useful. I suggest that is what we make this page. The other pages can contain bios on the secondary characters that are more notable. Not every secondary character on ER is going to require their own small biography. I went ahead and decided to be bold. Neeladave ( talk) 22:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I disagree with the merge. The current list is not that long, it is no more than 70 KB, and the page on article size states that above 80 KB is considered large. Another fact is that none of this fictional characters are notable enough, not even the combined groups of doctors, nurses, etc. The page on Notability recommends to create lists of minor characters and merge there all those who are indeed minor or secondary and have not proved notability. Not even the main character pages have managed to prove notability (and I doubt that characters like Anna del Amico, Malucci or Cleo would do), so lets avoid creating more articles with non-notable content. -- LoЯd ۞pεth 17:25, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- I would also want to add that, if the result is to split, then someone show fix the redirects, because all articles on Jerry, Chuny, Anspaugh, etc. redirect here. --
LoЯd
۞pεth 17:25, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Yes the redirects do need to be fixed. I am not sure where you are getting 70K from. I get a total of 76K when I add the different pages back together. The fact is these articles have a great deal of potential expansion and are likely grow. Therefore, I think a split here is warranted. It won't be long before we reach 80K. Neeladave ( talk) 20:02, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
This section needed a bit of work. Of particular concern was the claim that "Officer Martin" from the pilot episode and "Frank Martin" the desk clerk are the same character. In order to investigate this, I searched for articles and interviews that included any information on the supporting cast. I found nothing relevant. Then I went to the episodes themselves; I have both the Season 1 and the Season 10 DVD, and I combed through every single scene that had Troy Evans in it. I found no real evidence of the popular misconception that the “Officer Martin” of the pilot episode and the desk clerk “Frank Martin” we were introduced to in Season 6 are the same character.
In the pilot, there is only one scene (at 23:00) with Troy Evans: he is in an exam room and Carter comes to treat him. Carter refers to him simply as "Officer Martin," no first name or anything. Officer Martin has shot himself in the leg, apparently an accident that occurred when he was having a huge fight with his wife. As Carter tries three times to put the IV in, Officer Martin talks about how he wanted to "belt her one in the mouth," how he was "lucky he didn't kill her this time," or "throw her through the wall," "or "break her neck." He also says he doesn't hit her too much, just only when she really deserves it. He basically comes across as a rather horrid wife beater. At the end of the episode, when the credits appear, Troy Evans is listed as "Officer Martin"; again, no first name was included.
In the Season 10 episode “Forgive and Forget,” where Frank suffers a heart attack, we learn a lot about him. There are many scenes that feature him or his wife talking about his life. I went through the episode with a fine tooth comb, and I listened to every scene that referred to Frank's past very, very carefully, and there is absolutely no mention of him ever having been in the County ER before, of having been shot (either accidentally or otherwise), of having Carter treat him. Nothing. Yes, his wife reveals that he was a former police officer, and yes, his last name is “Martin,” but those are the only two parallels between the "Officer Martin" of the pilot episode and "Frank Martin" the desk clerk, and that is simply not sufficient proof that they are the same character. In fact, we learn that Frank Martin is a very loving husband and a devoted father; his wife is obviously very close to him and his Down Syndrome daughter (who is at least 10 years old, and whose existence was never mentioned by “Officer Martin” in the pilot episode) adores him. That in no way resembles the wife beater that Carter cared for in the pilot.
So I would venture to say that naming them both Martin and having them both be officers was either an inadvertent or deliberate coincidence on the part of the writers, producers, etc. Maybe they didn’t realize it, or maybe they just were trying to mess with our heads. Either way, I don’t think there is enough actual proof in episodes, DVD commentary, or interviews of both actors and crew that the two characters are meant to be the same person. 98.246.109.113 ( talk) 21:03, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- IMBD which actually uses script hard copies for their information identifies both the desk clerk and officer as the same character. See here [1]. Neeladave ( talk) 17:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
- IMDb relies on user submitted information and not solely script hard copies. I think its unclear whether they are intended to be the same character based on the content of the show and we'd need to find a reiable source to determine whether we can state one way or the other here on wikipedia.-- Opark 77 ( talk) 01:41, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- I agree to an extent. Unlike wikipedia, imdb is a for profit organization that actually has paid staff which reviews and evaluates content submitted to the website. It doesn't make it perfect but it does provide a certain amount of reliability beyond merely a user submitted organization. I have found cast lists to be very reliable on imdb. More suspect is the biographical/trivia information about individual people. It would be nice to find another source though to verify the content. Neeladave ( talk) 03:46, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- These sources seem to indicate he is indeed the same character: [2], [3] Neeladave ( talk) 19:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- But those sources also appear to be user generated. And as to IMDb using scripts to check cast and crew, what is your evidence for that? It certainly isn't the case with the page you cited in your first comment; it has a disclaimer that states "The content of this page was created by users. It has not been screened or verified by IMDb staff." The fact is, no ER spokesperson, actor, producer, writer or director has ever even intimated that they are the same character, and I think it's prudent to err on the side of caution instead of making statements of fact that cannot be verified unequivocally. If need be, the intro paragraph could be rewritten to incorporate the speculation, but it should not be stated as gospel. 98.246.109.113 ( talk) 16:15, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Um the first source is a media website. I grant you that its not the New York Times but the article's are written by a paid staff. Would you also please sign in when you make your comments. The fact is Frank states in season 6 that he is a former police officer. So we have a character from the pilot episode with the exact same name as the desk clerk who is a police officer that is played by the same actor. Seems pretty obvious to me that the writers intended it to be the same man. If they wanted to make it a different person they would have changed the character's name/background to something else. Neeladave ( talk) 20:01, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Um, not sure what you are talking about in terms of a media website and paid writers. Regardless, none of the websites you cite list the source of their information. Like I said before, in the pilot he is credited simply as "Officer Martin"; there is no first name used in the dialogue nor is it listed in the credits. I imagine that "Martin" as a surname is pretty common. In addition, the police officer background may be necessary evidence to declare the two to be the same character, but it is not sufficient. More importantly, the fact (and this was well established in the pilot) that "Officer Martin" was essentially a wife beater does not at all jive with the desk clerk Frank who was a loving husband and devoted father. How do you account for that discrepancy? Again, why not err on the side of caution? At least one other user agrees that is the way to proceed. (And I didn't sign in because I don't have an account and have no burning desire to create one. Wikipedia is deliberately set up so that does not preclude a user from contributing.) 98.246.109.113 ( talk) 21:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Redirect-Class Chicago articles
- NA-importance Chicago articles
- WikiProject Chicago articles
- Redirect-Class television articles
- Low-importance television articles
- Redirect-Class ER articles
- Mid-importance ER articles
- ER task force articles
- WikiProject Television articles
- Redirect-Class fictional character articles
- WikiProject Fictional characters articles
| This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of supporting characters in ER redirect. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
| Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
|
| This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
People SERIOUSLY need to use spell check if they're going to submit information on wikiP. It's looks pretty ridiculous when people can't spell, and even more frustrating for the rest of us who have to go and fix their mistakes. So please USE SPELL CHECK before you "SAVE PAGE." (e.g.: Phsychiatri... Yeah...it's "psychiatry.") 66.218.202.75 ( talk) 03:48, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't a character like Harold be in the list of minor doctors instead of this list? He was in almost a dozen episodes and the focus of multiple storylines, not just a random recurring character like most on this list. - Dravecky ( talk) 02:22, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Hey, I just wanted to know why did the Catherine Banfield's individual page has been deleted and redirected to this page. She is a lead role character, meaning that she, like all the other 25 regular characters deserves to have her own page. She definitively is not a supporting character this season.
Cheers
Takeit10 (
talk) 16:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
None of this info is cited... is there a rationale behind this?-- Ender The Xenocide | ( Talk | Contribs) 05:11, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
As you can see, I've uploaded the rest of the images of the characters. Any critics or suggestions? And another point: Am I the only one to think that the page became way too extense with all the supporting charactares together? Shoudn't they be separated like before? Takeit10 ( talk) 21:07, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
- I've removed all of the images. This type of identification usage is list articles is excessive. See the section in the non-free content article. We don't simply have a non-free image of each and every character. There must be some compelling reason that the image is needed - identification of a particular visual style, sourced commentary about the appearance of the character etc. - Peripitus (Talk) 00:57, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Not a steady enough viewer of ER these days to write it up myself, but obviously this article's missing desk clerk / ex-con Randi - played by Kristin Minter. Website shows many memorable scenes including her use of Kerry Weaver's crutch to beat an escaped, violent prisoner. 98.194.237.126 ( talk) 22:24, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
I think, if someone wanted to put the time into doing this, we could split this page into four different pages: Desk Clerks, Secondary Doctors, Seconday Nurses, and Family Members of Staff. In doing this, we could go into more detail into each area and list all characters in these catagories, because I can think of at least two desk clerks who are not on this list, and there are prolly plenty of nurses and secondary doctors who also aren't on this list. And practically no family members. Thoughts? J52y ( talk) 08:20, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with you. I think that the article got way too long the way it is right now. Takeit10 ( talk) 01:26, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- So it seems that the subarticles are all in place but attempts to remove the information from this parent article are being reverted with the edit summary "Reverted unexplained removal of content" by both Lord Opeth and Neelanddave. Unfortunately this means that there are two sets of the same content floating around. Seeing as the edit summary states that the removal of content is unexplained I'm going to press on with trying to move the duplicated content under the assumption that these reverts are being made because of a lack of understanding rather than because of an actual opposition to the moving of content. Therefore, I'm going to attempt tidying this up again and will point people here in my edit summary as I think this serves quite well as an explanation for why these edits have been made by myself and J52y. Obviously if there is actual objection to the splitting off of the content then we need to stop editing and engage in further discussion.-- 88.105.230.212 ( talk) 16:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- Oh dear, experienced some server issues while making my last set of edits and appear to have been logged out. I am editing from IP:88.105.230.212 and I have made the last edit to this article and the previous edit to this associated talk page. Sorry for any confusion.--
Opark 77 (
talk) 16:09, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- I have no objection to splitting off the content into different pages. However, if we do that I think this article should be renamed to List of guest appearances in ER to reflect its current content. We can use cats and nav boxes to connect the articles rather than the current setup. An article that just links to main articles with no prose under the headings seems pointless and unprofessional in presentation. Neeladave ( talk) 19:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- Another thought has occured to me. I think more complete lists without biographical information could be highly useful. I suggest that is what we make this page. The other pages can contain bios on the secondary characters that are more notable. Not every secondary character on ER is going to require their own small biography. I went ahead and decided to be bold. Neeladave ( talk) 22:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I disagree with the merge. The current list is not that long, it is no more than 70 KB, and the page on article size states that above 80 KB is considered large. Another fact is that none of this fictional characters are notable enough, not even the combined groups of doctors, nurses, etc. The page on Notability recommends to create lists of minor characters and merge there all those who are indeed minor or secondary and have not proved notability. Not even the main character pages have managed to prove notability (and I doubt that characters like Anna del Amico, Malucci or Cleo would do), so lets avoid creating more articles with non-notable content. -- LoЯd ۞pεth 17:25, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- I would also want to add that, if the result is to split, then someone show fix the redirects, because all articles on Jerry, Chuny, Anspaugh, etc. redirect here. --
LoЯd
۞pεth 17:25, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Yes the redirects do need to be fixed. I am not sure where you are getting 70K from. I get a total of 76K when I add the different pages back together. The fact is these articles have a great deal of potential expansion and are likely grow. Therefore, I think a split here is warranted. It won't be long before we reach 80K. Neeladave ( talk) 20:02, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
This section needed a bit of work. Of particular concern was the claim that "Officer Martin" from the pilot episode and "Frank Martin" the desk clerk are the same character. In order to investigate this, I searched for articles and interviews that included any information on the supporting cast. I found nothing relevant. Then I went to the episodes themselves; I have both the Season 1 and the Season 10 DVD, and I combed through every single scene that had Troy Evans in it. I found no real evidence of the popular misconception that the “Officer Martin” of the pilot episode and the desk clerk “Frank Martin” we were introduced to in Season 6 are the same character.
In the pilot, there is only one scene (at 23:00) with Troy Evans: he is in an exam room and Carter comes to treat him. Carter refers to him simply as "Officer Martin," no first name or anything. Officer Martin has shot himself in the leg, apparently an accident that occurred when he was having a huge fight with his wife. As Carter tries three times to put the IV in, Officer Martin talks about how he wanted to "belt her one in the mouth," how he was "lucky he didn't kill her this time," or "throw her through the wall," "or "break her neck." He also says he doesn't hit her too much, just only when she really deserves it. He basically comes across as a rather horrid wife beater. At the end of the episode, when the credits appear, Troy Evans is listed as "Officer Martin"; again, no first name was included.
In the Season 10 episode “Forgive and Forget,” where Frank suffers a heart attack, we learn a lot about him. There are many scenes that feature him or his wife talking about his life. I went through the episode with a fine tooth comb, and I listened to every scene that referred to Frank's past very, very carefully, and there is absolutely no mention of him ever having been in the County ER before, of having been shot (either accidentally or otherwise), of having Carter treat him. Nothing. Yes, his wife reveals that he was a former police officer, and yes, his last name is “Martin,” but those are the only two parallels between the "Officer Martin" of the pilot episode and "Frank Martin" the desk clerk, and that is simply not sufficient proof that they are the same character. In fact, we learn that Frank Martin is a very loving husband and a devoted father; his wife is obviously very close to him and his Down Syndrome daughter (who is at least 10 years old, and whose existence was never mentioned by “Officer Martin” in the pilot episode) adores him. That in no way resembles the wife beater that Carter cared for in the pilot.
So I would venture to say that naming them both Martin and having them both be officers was either an inadvertent or deliberate coincidence on the part of the writers, producers, etc. Maybe they didn’t realize it, or maybe they just were trying to mess with our heads. Either way, I don’t think there is enough actual proof in episodes, DVD commentary, or interviews of both actors and crew that the two characters are meant to be the same person. 98.246.109.113 ( talk) 21:03, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- IMBD which actually uses script hard copies for their information identifies both the desk clerk and officer as the same character. See here [1]. Neeladave ( talk) 17:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
- IMDb relies on user submitted information and not solely script hard copies. I think its unclear whether they are intended to be the same character based on the content of the show and we'd need to find a reiable source to determine whether we can state one way or the other here on wikipedia.-- Opark 77 ( talk) 01:41, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- I agree to an extent. Unlike wikipedia, imdb is a for profit organization that actually has paid staff which reviews and evaluates content submitted to the website. It doesn't make it perfect but it does provide a certain amount of reliability beyond merely a user submitted organization. I have found cast lists to be very reliable on imdb. More suspect is the biographical/trivia information about individual people. It would be nice to find another source though to verify the content. Neeladave ( talk) 03:46, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- These sources seem to indicate he is indeed the same character: [2], [3] Neeladave ( talk) 19:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- But those sources also appear to be user generated. And as to IMDb using scripts to check cast and crew, what is your evidence for that? It certainly isn't the case with the page you cited in your first comment; it has a disclaimer that states "The content of this page was created by users. It has not been screened or verified by IMDb staff." The fact is, no ER spokesperson, actor, producer, writer or director has ever even intimated that they are the same character, and I think it's prudent to err on the side of caution instead of making statements of fact that cannot be verified unequivocally. If need be, the intro paragraph could be rewritten to incorporate the speculation, but it should not be stated as gospel. 98.246.109.113 ( talk) 16:15, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Um the first source is a media website. I grant you that its not the New York Times but the article's are written by a paid staff. Would you also please sign in when you make your comments. The fact is Frank states in season 6 that he is a former police officer. So we have a character from the pilot episode with the exact same name as the desk clerk who is a police officer that is played by the same actor. Seems pretty obvious to me that the writers intended it to be the same man. If they wanted to make it a different person they would have changed the character's name/background to something else. Neeladave ( talk) 20:01, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Um, not sure what you are talking about in terms of a media website and paid writers. Regardless, none of the websites you cite list the source of their information. Like I said before, in the pilot he is credited simply as "Officer Martin"; there is no first name used in the dialogue nor is it listed in the credits. I imagine that "Martin" as a surname is pretty common. In addition, the police officer background may be necessary evidence to declare the two to be the same character, but it is not sufficient. More importantly, the fact (and this was well established in the pilot) that "Officer Martin" was essentially a wife beater does not at all jive with the desk clerk Frank who was a loving husband and devoted father. How do you account for that discrepancy? Again, why not err on the side of caution? At least one other user agrees that is the way to proceed. (And I didn't sign in because I don't have an account and have no burning desire to create one. Wikipedia is deliberately set up so that does not preclude a user from contributing.) 98.246.109.113 ( talk) 21:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Redirect-Class Chicago articles
- NA-importance Chicago articles
- WikiProject Chicago articles
- Redirect-Class television articles
- Low-importance television articles
- Redirect-Class ER articles
- Mid-importance ER articles
- ER task force articles
- WikiProject Television articles
- Redirect-Class fictional character articles
- WikiProject Fictional characters articles