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Arbitration Ruling on the Treatment of Pseudoscience In December of 2006 the Arbitration Committee ruled on guidelines for the presentation of topics as pseudoscience in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. The final decision was as follows:
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This list has been moved from Water Fuel Museum, see Talk:Water Fuel Museum. Biscuittin ( talk) 09:06, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Anon editor from Lexington, Kentucky: Please consider registering an account. It will make communicating with you easier, and make it easier for you to communicate with others. It's quick, free, and anonymous (you don't have to give away any real-world information about yourself).
When you're logged in, you can do many things that unregistered users cannot, such as creating new pages, uploading media content, moving pages and keeping track of changes to articles you edit frequently. It helps the community, too — Wikipedians will be more likely to remember who you are when you have an account name!
If you want more information on the benefits of creating an account, click here. And once you've registered, please drop me a message and say hi! Don't forget to sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~).
You also apparently haven't read much about how wikipedia works. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:
If you register an account and stick around, I think you'll find that you'll get farther working within, rather than against wikipedia's policies (as you are currently doing). Yilloslime (t) 01:49, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Water_Fuel_Museum#merge_-_split_-_violation_of_WP:CFORK_-_List_of_water_fuel_inventions. -- CyclePat ( talk) 06:41, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I oppose deletion because I think it has been proposed for political reasons. I think water fuel is improbable but I don't think it is impossible so I think it is a legitimate subject for inclusion in Wikipedia. Both sides need to be less dogmatic. Biscuittin ( talk) 23:33, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on January 7, 2009. The result of the discussion was speedy keep. |
Are not reliable sources. TallNapoleon ( talk) 20:16, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I've just reverted a series of undiscussed section deletions by user_talk:Yilloslime. As you might have noticed I did a fairly large re-write on the article yesterday and was hoping to get some feedback through the talk: page (isn't that how we do things?). I can't say that I'm happy about these deletions, for several reasons:
Now if anyone has a specific problem with any of these sections, then work on it - no-one is claiming that they're perfect. If anyone has a general issue with my approach to the overall article here, then let's talk about it. Rememeber though that we're dealing with an article so poor it was AfD'ed and no-one has touched it for a week since. It needs _some_ sort of re-structuring to make it workable, it was no use as it was. Andy Dingley ( talk) 11:07, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Why is this section here? None of these topics involve water as a fuel... and this is a list of 'water fuel' inventions, isnt it? Thats been hashed over a bunch of times over at water fueled car. I suggest that this article maintain the same strict inclusion criterea. Guyonthesubway ( talk) 14:39, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I've removed this line for many reasons. One of the more compelling arguments not presented in the edit summary is that this entry relies solely on a primary source and thus constitutes original research, and we just don't do that here. Rklawton ( talk) 13:43, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
In accordance with the Arbitration Committee Decisions on Pseudoscience and this article's clarified focus on pseudoscience, I propose removing "Cold Fusion" from this list.
1) "Cold Fusion" is squarely in Group 3 "Questionable Science", not Group 1 or 2 "Pseudoscience".
2) It's no more a "water fuel invention" than "hot fusion" is.
3) The main purpose of inclusion seems to be to contribute more broad-brush taint to a larger field, which is POV.
4) The entry is completely unsourced.
1) Cold fusion's purported effects are indeed contentious in the scientific community, but they're far from universally considered to be pseudoscience among serious and well-trained scientists. The field certainly does have a following of not-so-well-trained enthusiasts with a pseudoscientific zeal (which is understatement!), but that's actually immaterial to the real science that is going on in the field. Try not to be distracted by the groupies, that would be unencyclopedic and unscientific. For one example of some of the real science, click here (beware the large fraction of unrelated pseudoscientific groupie videos in the "suggestions" column on the right side of the page).
2) "Cold Fusion" as a term in-use has evolved to cover a wide spectrum of supposed phenomena. It's not just a "water fuel" thing. But by the very same reasoning, hot fusion would also be called a "water fuel invention" merely because it's possible to get the actual fuel by processing water along with other inputs (of energy and materials). By continuing this careless reasoning, any process where the consumable energy source is hydrogen could be called "water fuel invention". This would include H2-gas internal combustion, H2 fuel cell, and "hot-fusion", as well as cold fusion of course. In these cases, if water was used as the source of D2/H2 gas or D2O, it would be only one input into the production of whatever would be the on-board consumable "fuel". And even then, water isn't actually necessary to the production of the actual fuel, there are many other sources of D2 and H2. So, it's not a "water fuel invention" any more than a H2-gas powered internal combustion engine could be called "water fueled". If you wanted, you could get the deuterium needed for either cold or hot fusion from water, but hot fusion isn't called a "water fuel invention", so why would cold fusion be called that? There's no good reason. Water simply is not the "fuel" for conceived cold fusion systems.
To refine the point, if there actually was a "water fuel invention" related to cold fusion, that invention would only be whatever the on-board/in-situ system was that took care of processing ordinary water into whatever was needed for the actual energy-producing process. That's if such a system could be carried on-board or installed as part of an energy plant. Since the energy density of D2 of D2O under (purported) cold fusion systems is so high, it would likely be unnecessary to process on-board anyway. But, only with such an added-on system could water be possibly thought of as "fuel". But such a system isn't cold fusion (nor hot fusion), it's just an ordinary process separating deuterium from protium. And, that process isn't in dispute at all.
3) "Neutral point of view as applied to science: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience." The current text is not a "fair representation" of the CF unorthodoxy. It ramrods a case for "pseudoscience" by it's inclusion, and seals it with a few nasty words on the side. As I've argued in 1), the field is Group 3, not Group 1 or 2. Even the Wikipedia Cold Fusion article is schizophrenic about whether it's "pseudo" or not, which by definition makes it Group 3 because it's legitimately debatable. So, the one-sided story in the wording strongly whiffs of NPOV.
4) The entry is completely unsourced. Immediate removal is justifiable for that reason alone. Reinstatement would require reliable references for the (implied) assertion that the field is in Group 1 or 2 under the Arbitration Committee Decisions on Pseudoscience. Inclusion would also need reliable refs establishing it as a "water fuel invention".
Ubewu ( talk) 03:24, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
There were some inventors that are sourced exclusively to patents. They don't appear to be covered in any reliable sources. Obtaining a patent doesn't mean that the invention works, or that the invention is going to revolutionize the field of fuels. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate list of everyone who managed to get a patent on a given field!
Please present reliable sources when re-adding them. Try newspapers, magazines, etc. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 14:07, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
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This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to
pseudoscience and
fringe science, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
Arbitration Ruling on the Treatment of Pseudoscience In December of 2006 the Arbitration Committee ruled on guidelines for the presentation of topics as pseudoscience in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. The final decision was as follows:
|
This list has been moved from Water Fuel Museum, see Talk:Water Fuel Museum. Biscuittin ( talk) 09:06, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Anon editor from Lexington, Kentucky: Please consider registering an account. It will make communicating with you easier, and make it easier for you to communicate with others. It's quick, free, and anonymous (you don't have to give away any real-world information about yourself).
When you're logged in, you can do many things that unregistered users cannot, such as creating new pages, uploading media content, moving pages and keeping track of changes to articles you edit frequently. It helps the community, too — Wikipedians will be more likely to remember who you are when you have an account name!
If you want more information on the benefits of creating an account, click here. And once you've registered, please drop me a message and say hi! Don't forget to sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~).
You also apparently haven't read much about how wikipedia works. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:
If you register an account and stick around, I think you'll find that you'll get farther working within, rather than against wikipedia's policies (as you are currently doing). Yilloslime (t) 01:49, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Water_Fuel_Museum#merge_-_split_-_violation_of_WP:CFORK_-_List_of_water_fuel_inventions. -- CyclePat ( talk) 06:41, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I oppose deletion because I think it has been proposed for political reasons. I think water fuel is improbable but I don't think it is impossible so I think it is a legitimate subject for inclusion in Wikipedia. Both sides need to be less dogmatic. Biscuittin ( talk) 23:33, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on January 7, 2009. The result of the discussion was speedy keep. |
Are not reliable sources. TallNapoleon ( talk) 20:16, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I've just reverted a series of undiscussed section deletions by user_talk:Yilloslime. As you might have noticed I did a fairly large re-write on the article yesterday and was hoping to get some feedback through the talk: page (isn't that how we do things?). I can't say that I'm happy about these deletions, for several reasons:
Now if anyone has a specific problem with any of these sections, then work on it - no-one is claiming that they're perfect. If anyone has a general issue with my approach to the overall article here, then let's talk about it. Rememeber though that we're dealing with an article so poor it was AfD'ed and no-one has touched it for a week since. It needs _some_ sort of re-structuring to make it workable, it was no use as it was. Andy Dingley ( talk) 11:07, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Why is this section here? None of these topics involve water as a fuel... and this is a list of 'water fuel' inventions, isnt it? Thats been hashed over a bunch of times over at water fueled car. I suggest that this article maintain the same strict inclusion criterea. Guyonthesubway ( talk) 14:39, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I've removed this line for many reasons. One of the more compelling arguments not presented in the edit summary is that this entry relies solely on a primary source and thus constitutes original research, and we just don't do that here. Rklawton ( talk) 13:43, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
In accordance with the Arbitration Committee Decisions on Pseudoscience and this article's clarified focus on pseudoscience, I propose removing "Cold Fusion" from this list.
1) "Cold Fusion" is squarely in Group 3 "Questionable Science", not Group 1 or 2 "Pseudoscience".
2) It's no more a "water fuel invention" than "hot fusion" is.
3) The main purpose of inclusion seems to be to contribute more broad-brush taint to a larger field, which is POV.
4) The entry is completely unsourced.
1) Cold fusion's purported effects are indeed contentious in the scientific community, but they're far from universally considered to be pseudoscience among serious and well-trained scientists. The field certainly does have a following of not-so-well-trained enthusiasts with a pseudoscientific zeal (which is understatement!), but that's actually immaterial to the real science that is going on in the field. Try not to be distracted by the groupies, that would be unencyclopedic and unscientific. For one example of some of the real science, click here (beware the large fraction of unrelated pseudoscientific groupie videos in the "suggestions" column on the right side of the page).
2) "Cold Fusion" as a term in-use has evolved to cover a wide spectrum of supposed phenomena. It's not just a "water fuel" thing. But by the very same reasoning, hot fusion would also be called a "water fuel invention" merely because it's possible to get the actual fuel by processing water along with other inputs (of energy and materials). By continuing this careless reasoning, any process where the consumable energy source is hydrogen could be called "water fuel invention". This would include H2-gas internal combustion, H2 fuel cell, and "hot-fusion", as well as cold fusion of course. In these cases, if water was used as the source of D2/H2 gas or D2O, it would be only one input into the production of whatever would be the on-board consumable "fuel". And even then, water isn't actually necessary to the production of the actual fuel, there are many other sources of D2 and H2. So, it's not a "water fuel invention" any more than a H2-gas powered internal combustion engine could be called "water fueled". If you wanted, you could get the deuterium needed for either cold or hot fusion from water, but hot fusion isn't called a "water fuel invention", so why would cold fusion be called that? There's no good reason. Water simply is not the "fuel" for conceived cold fusion systems.
To refine the point, if there actually was a "water fuel invention" related to cold fusion, that invention would only be whatever the on-board/in-situ system was that took care of processing ordinary water into whatever was needed for the actual energy-producing process. That's if such a system could be carried on-board or installed as part of an energy plant. Since the energy density of D2 of D2O under (purported) cold fusion systems is so high, it would likely be unnecessary to process on-board anyway. But, only with such an added-on system could water be possibly thought of as "fuel". But such a system isn't cold fusion (nor hot fusion), it's just an ordinary process separating deuterium from protium. And, that process isn't in dispute at all.
3) "Neutral point of view as applied to science: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience." The current text is not a "fair representation" of the CF unorthodoxy. It ramrods a case for "pseudoscience" by it's inclusion, and seals it with a few nasty words on the side. As I've argued in 1), the field is Group 3, not Group 1 or 2. Even the Wikipedia Cold Fusion article is schizophrenic about whether it's "pseudo" or not, which by definition makes it Group 3 because it's legitimately debatable. So, the one-sided story in the wording strongly whiffs of NPOV.
4) The entry is completely unsourced. Immediate removal is justifiable for that reason alone. Reinstatement would require reliable references for the (implied) assertion that the field is in Group 1 or 2 under the Arbitration Committee Decisions on Pseudoscience. Inclusion would also need reliable refs establishing it as a "water fuel invention".
Ubewu ( talk) 03:24, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
There were some inventors that are sourced exclusively to patents. They don't appear to be covered in any reliable sources. Obtaining a patent doesn't mean that the invention works, or that the invention is going to revolutionize the field of fuels. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate list of everyone who managed to get a patent on a given field!
Please present reliable sources when re-adding them. Try newspapers, magazines, etc. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 14:07, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on List of pseudoscientific water fuel inventions. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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