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Unlike high-end chess programs such as Stockfish, which basically do a bunch of calculations on the CPU, Leela Chess Zero, also known as LCZero, uses a neural net running on a GPU.
As explained here, [1] you can run LCZero on the GPU on a PC, on Google Colab, or on Google Cloud.
The question of whether LCZero is stronger that Stockfish is of great interest to many people. We should not imply that it is stronger unless the sources support that conclusion. And of course we may need to change what we say about this as both programs go though new revisions.
According to [2] in a Blitz Chess LCZero is in third place, behind Stockfish and Komodo.
Nonetheless, our article says "Leela beats the world champion Stockfish engine despite a 1-pawn handicap", citing [3]].
This implies that Leela is stronger than Stockfish, but the sources do not support that claim.
The above "despite a 1-pawn handicap" is especially misleading. It implies that the starting position gave Stockfish one more pawn than Leela
The actual source says:
"The Lc0 engine got off to a fast start in the bonus games, beating the reigning Computer Chess Champion Stockfish despite Lc0 starting down a pawn in the odds-chess position." with the actual moves listed (you can see them on the board by clicking on the arrows).
As can clearly be seen by replaying the game (you can replay the moves on the page I linked to by clicking on the arrows), They started out even, then LCZero blundered and lost a pawn on the second move. So the article is misleading.
More importantly, by focusing on the one game, instead of the result of the entire tournament, the article implies that LCZero is stronger than Stockfish.
Another problem is that is isn't clear from the source whether LCZero was running on the same hardware as Stockfish. Yes, I am aware that one other editor of this page thinks he knows, but until we see an actual source that says what the hardware was, I stand by my conclusion that it is unclear.
Normally, these tournaments are run on PCs with fast CPUs and lots of memory, but without an epecially powerful GPU -- most chess programs use a lot of CPU, not GPU. In suchs a case, Stockfish would have un unfair advantage.
Some chess programs run hardware back at the lab and send their moves over the Internet (earlier programs like Deep Blue used a telephone and a modem for this).
So it isn't clear whether Stockfish and LCZero were running on the same hardware or whether LCZero was running on Google Cloud, which is far more powerful than any PC if you pay enough.
I tried to address some of these issues, but as you can see from the page history I keep getting reverted.
So my question is this: Does the current wording neutrally present what the sources say about the relative strength of Stockfish and LCZero? Or does it give one game too much prominence instead of focusing on the overall win-loss ratio? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 23:03, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
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Is this standard practice to refer to chess engines this way? J mareeswaran ( talk) 11:09, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Hello,
I have recently evaluated this article for a class assignment. I think this article is good but more could be added to make it better. Some of the notes I have may help in the bettering of this article.
LingschLuke ( talk) 17:15, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
I've added a little bit to the lead mentioning that it's neural network based. But maybe it would be a good idea to have a bit more in the lead + a separate section going over how Leela works? ArguMentor ( talk) 13:12, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
The article says "See the season 14 archives at http://tcec.chessdom.com/archive.php " but that URL doesn't lead directly to the season 4 archives. You are expected to figure out what to click. Is there way way to create a link that goes directly to the section? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 08:01, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
In view of the recent edit switching from "she" to "it", I think this should be discussed. I have a slight preference for "she" (this is also the gender used by Leela developers, e.g. here) but don't mind "it". Pinging @ Haifadude: and @ J mareeswaran: as probably interested in this question.
Leelenstein just beat Stockfish in CCC 10. Does it deserve its own article? It's a separate engine from Lc0, but only in the sense of a different neural network - the binary that executes the search is mostly the same (as far as I know the only difference is that Leelenstein uses trade penalty). I'm favoring a separate article, but asking here first. Banedon ( talk) 12:55, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
There's a black-and-red Lc0 logo that can be seen on top of the Lc0 blog. I think it'd be nice to include in this article. Is it in the public domain? If not, who holds the copyright to it? Does anyone know? Banedon ( talk) 07:04, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
I don't think it's fair to say AllieStein is a Leela Chess Zero variant. Both the binary and the net are different. One could say it's an AlphaZero variant, but not Lc0 variant. Ping @ Ramzuiv:. Banedon ( talk) 07:26, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
The "Self-Play Elo" section seems like a lengthy digression that isn't especially relevant to the article, IMO. It also doesn't have any sources and seems likely to be original research. Kaldari ( talk) 22:48, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
"temperature-based variation" ? Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 02:36, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
Is it "Leela chess Zero" or "Leela Chess Zero"? The article is inconsistent in this respect, including the title. Which one is it? -- Mortense ( talk) 16:11, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Unlike high-end chess programs such as Stockfish, which basically do a bunch of calculations on the CPU, Leela Chess Zero, also known as LCZero, uses a neural net running on a GPU.
As explained here, [1] you can run LCZero on the GPU on a PC, on Google Colab, or on Google Cloud.
The question of whether LCZero is stronger that Stockfish is of great interest to many people. We should not imply that it is stronger unless the sources support that conclusion. And of course we may need to change what we say about this as both programs go though new revisions.
According to [2] in a Blitz Chess LCZero is in third place, behind Stockfish and Komodo.
Nonetheless, our article says "Leela beats the world champion Stockfish engine despite a 1-pawn handicap", citing [3]].
This implies that Leela is stronger than Stockfish, but the sources do not support that claim.
The above "despite a 1-pawn handicap" is especially misleading. It implies that the starting position gave Stockfish one more pawn than Leela
The actual source says:
"The Lc0 engine got off to a fast start in the bonus games, beating the reigning Computer Chess Champion Stockfish despite Lc0 starting down a pawn in the odds-chess position." with the actual moves listed (you can see them on the board by clicking on the arrows).
As can clearly be seen by replaying the game (you can replay the moves on the page I linked to by clicking on the arrows), They started out even, then LCZero blundered and lost a pawn on the second move. So the article is misleading.
More importantly, by focusing on the one game, instead of the result of the entire tournament, the article implies that LCZero is stronger than Stockfish.
Another problem is that is isn't clear from the source whether LCZero was running on the same hardware as Stockfish. Yes, I am aware that one other editor of this page thinks he knows, but until we see an actual source that says what the hardware was, I stand by my conclusion that it is unclear.
Normally, these tournaments are run on PCs with fast CPUs and lots of memory, but without an epecially powerful GPU -- most chess programs use a lot of CPU, not GPU. In suchs a case, Stockfish would have un unfair advantage.
Some chess programs run hardware back at the lab and send their moves over the Internet (earlier programs like Deep Blue used a telephone and a modem for this).
So it isn't clear whether Stockfish and LCZero were running on the same hardware or whether LCZero was running on Google Cloud, which is far more powerful than any PC if you pay enough.
I tried to address some of these issues, but as you can see from the page history I keep getting reverted.
So my question is this: Does the current wording neutrally present what the sources say about the relative strength of Stockfish and LCZero? Or does it give one game too much prominence instead of focusing on the overall win-loss ratio? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 23:03, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
a | b | c | d | e | f | g | h | ||
8 | 8 | ||||||||
7 | 7 | ||||||||
6 | 6 | ||||||||
5 | 5 | ||||||||
4 | 4 | ||||||||
3 | 3 | ||||||||
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1 | 1 | ||||||||
a | b | c | d | e | f | g | h |
Is this standard practice to refer to chess engines this way? J mareeswaran ( talk) 11:09, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Hello,
I have recently evaluated this article for a class assignment. I think this article is good but more could be added to make it better. Some of the notes I have may help in the bettering of this article.
LingschLuke ( talk) 17:15, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
I've added a little bit to the lead mentioning that it's neural network based. But maybe it would be a good idea to have a bit more in the lead + a separate section going over how Leela works? ArguMentor ( talk) 13:12, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
The article says "See the season 14 archives at http://tcec.chessdom.com/archive.php " but that URL doesn't lead directly to the season 4 archives. You are expected to figure out what to click. Is there way way to create a link that goes directly to the section? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 08:01, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
In view of the recent edit switching from "she" to "it", I think this should be discussed. I have a slight preference for "she" (this is also the gender used by Leela developers, e.g. here) but don't mind "it". Pinging @ Haifadude: and @ J mareeswaran: as probably interested in this question.
Leelenstein just beat Stockfish in CCC 10. Does it deserve its own article? It's a separate engine from Lc0, but only in the sense of a different neural network - the binary that executes the search is mostly the same (as far as I know the only difference is that Leelenstein uses trade penalty). I'm favoring a separate article, but asking here first. Banedon ( talk) 12:55, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
There's a black-and-red Lc0 logo that can be seen on top of the Lc0 blog. I think it'd be nice to include in this article. Is it in the public domain? If not, who holds the copyright to it? Does anyone know? Banedon ( talk) 07:04, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
I don't think it's fair to say AllieStein is a Leela Chess Zero variant. Both the binary and the net are different. One could say it's an AlphaZero variant, but not Lc0 variant. Ping @ Ramzuiv:. Banedon ( talk) 07:26, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
The "Self-Play Elo" section seems like a lengthy digression that isn't especially relevant to the article, IMO. It also doesn't have any sources and seems likely to be original research. Kaldari ( talk) 22:48, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
"temperature-based variation" ? Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 02:36, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
Is it "Leela chess Zero" or "Leela Chess Zero"? The article is inconsistent in this respect, including the title. Which one is it? -- Mortense ( talk) 16:11, 6 December 2021 (UTC)