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When have these acts been called the Act of Union 1536 and Act of Union 1543? When I studied the subject we referred to the 1543 act as the "Laws in Wales Act". Are these the legal names of the measures? If not, where do these names come from. They are *like* the later acts of union but it is anachronistic (surely) to apply the later term to the earlier act? Francis Davey 5 July 2005 20:44 (UTC)
Has this Act of Union repealed? I don't think so, Wales is still part of the UK... some aprts may have been rendered ineffective, but the majority of the Act is still in force, surely? (Some IP address Aug 2004) I'm inclined to agree, and will mak the change until someone more authoratative can change it back. Rich Farmbrough 09:34, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The section "the Welsh farmers of remoter districts found themselves adrift in amidst a legal and economic system whose language and focus were unfamiliar to them." seems a little dubious perhaps NPOV. Since the 13thC many of the King officials would have been opperating in French for legal/government matters in Wales [only slowly moving to English]. Much of this administration would have been so distant as to never involve a remote rural farmer so the distinction drawn seems stronger than the reality. Alci12
This page was moved to Laws in Wales Acts 1535-1542 from Acts of Union 1536-1543 by Owain on 25 Nov 2005 without any discussion. I'm going to move it back. If you want to move something, a {{move}} or {{mergeto}} tag should be inserted and it should be discussed. -- JW1805 (Talk) 21:57, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
There is no such Act of Parliament as the "Act of Union 1536" or "Act of Union 1543". The Acts are called the "Laws in Wales Act 1535" and "Laws in Wales Act 1542". Quite why you have moved the correctly-titled page back to an incorrect name baffles me. You have also screwed-up the ability for it to be simply moved back to it's correct title using the move facility, thereby forcing me to do a horrible cut/paste job to restore it. Thankfully, that's where all the edit history is, so it's not the end of the world. Owain 10:07, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I am proposing that this page be moved back to Acts of Union 1536-1543, which was the title for two years, and is the most commonly used term (see comments above). -- JW1805 (Talk) 15:38, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Not moved. Eugene van der Pijll 20:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
"a single legal jurisdiction, which is frequently referred to as England and Wales." - should read as "by extending the single legal jurisdiction of England, more recently this state is referred to as England and Wales.". The Welsh revolution is coming like the force of a mighty dripping tap! -- Pbhj 03:26, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
After much debate, the editors of the United Kingdom article seem to have settled on 1707 as being the foundation of the state (I note with concern though that this date lacks any external referencing, per official Wikipedia policy WP:VERIFY).
But this article - List of countries by formation dates - claims that the UK was actually founded in 1603 (again, completely unreferenced). Both articles cannot be correct, so which is it? Please come to the party armed with some proper external refs, because I am not sure if we can stomach yet another verbally diarrhetic Talk page splurge with largely consists of ad hominem attacks and statements of totally unsourced opinion. -- Mais oui! ( talk) 23:40, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
1603 is an error. England and Scotland come under the same personal rule of the sovereign James I (and VI of Scotland) in that year but the explicit Act of Union is indeed 1707. The United Kingdom can only be dated from that year. Jatrius ( talk) 10:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
The Belfast Agreement link should be removed from the 'Sovereignty' section as the agreement was not concerned with and did not alter sovereignty in Northern Ireland or the UK as a whole. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sjamesg ( talk • contribs) 19:09, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Why is the title 1535-1542 but the text refers to 1536-1543 ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahutchinson ( talk • contribs) 08:23, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
(I'm moving a discussion here from my talk page) -- Snowded TALK 18:02, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I've been working on the Law section of the Wales article and noticed Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542 looked odd. The Acts always seem to be referred to as having been passed in 1536 and 1543 ( John Davies and Gwenllian Lansdown for example). Although the full texts from the UK Statute Law Database ( http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?activeTextDocId=1517920&versionNumber=1 here) and ( http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?activeTextDocId=1518015&versionNumber=1 here) and the article title refer to 1535 and 1542. Any idea why? Daicaregos ( talk) 16:41, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Does this resolve the issue? It seems to give the official answer - the Laws in Wales Act 1535 and the Laws in Wales Act 1542. End of story, I think - there can't be anything more authoritative than the Chronological Table of Statutes, where those titles come from, can there? If that's right, presumably the article text needs to be changed, with some sort of explanation for the evident confusion over the dates. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 21:08, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
(Joining the discussion from a notice on the talk page of WP:LAW) My recollection of legal history, thin though it is, is that having the year in the title, and even the short title itself, are both relatively modern ideas; for centuries, the Acts of Parliament were known by the chapter number and regnal year (i.e. the 7th Act passed in the 9th year of the reign of Queen Nancy III would be referred to as "9 Nancy III c. 7"). There would be a "long title" (something like "An Act for doing something about something, and something else about another thing, and for related purposes") but no snappy short title. I'm not sure how the system worked when a Parliamentary session overlapped the anniversary of the monarch's accession, but it might be a question of whether the sources are using the start or end of the Parliamentary session in which the Act was passed to choose the date. And, in the absence of an official contemporary short title, I can see how different people would end up with different titles for the Acts. Bencherlite Talk 12:18, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
In the light of the above discussion, I propose that the text be revised. Although we don't know why this happened (and can't speculate), it seems clear (and referenced) that the official names of the legislation now (in English) are The Laws in Wales Act 1535 and The Laws in Wales Act 1542. So, I propose that the first para of the article be revised as follows:
The Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542 ( Welsh: Y Deddfau Uno 1535 a 1542) were parliamentary measures by which the legal system of Wales was annexed to England and the norms of English administration introduced in order to create a single state and a single legal jurisdiction, which is frequently referred to as England and Wales. The Acts were passed during the reign of King Henry VIII of England, who came from the Welsh Tudor dynasty. They have frequently been referred to as the Acts of Union of 1536 and 1543, but some scholars consider this name to be inaccurate, and their formal names are "The Laws in Wales Act 1535" [1] and "The Laws in Wales Act 1542". [2]
Further citations can be added from the above discussion, and there will be some consequent changes to the dates in later parts of the article. But, I think the proper names of the Acts are clear and the article should reflect those. Would anyone object to that change? Ghmyrtle ( talk) 19:44, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
The Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542 ( Welsh: Y Deddfau Uno 1535 a 1542) were parliamentary measures by which the legal system of Wales was annexed to England and the norms of English administration introduced. The intention was to create a single state and a single legal jurisdiction; frequently referred to as England and Wales. The Acts were passed during the reign of King Henry VIII of England, who came from the Welsh Tudor dynasty. They are frequently referred to as the Acts of Union of 1536 and 1543, but some scholars consider this name to be misleading. The Acts formal names are "The Laws in Wales Act 1535" [3] and "The Laws in Wales Act 1542". [4]
Pretty much the suggested version of Ghmyrtle, with a couple of tweeks. Daicaregos ( talk) 14:20, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
There are two separate things going on here. The first is to do with titles, the second with dates. Titles first: the titles of Acts of Parliament in the 16th C were what we now call the "long title" and were (are) often very long. As a result important Acts often acquired one or more popular titles or "nicknames". All modern Acts have a legal short title as well as a long title, and in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries the practice of retrospectively assigning a legal short title to important Acts still extant came about. In this particular example the legal short title of "The Laws in Wales Act" was conferred by the Statute Law Revision Act 1948, s.5 and Sch. 2. So that is currently the legal name notwithstanding any nicknames, however longstanding. Dates:a bit more complicated, but you can date an Act from the date of Royal Assent (the current practice), or from the contemporary date on which the parliamentary session started. So, for example, the 8th session of Henry VIII's 5th Parliament met between 4th Feb 1535/6 and 14th April 1536, but Royal assent would not have been given until 1536. That's why the official dates (e.g. HMSO) use 1535 (the year the Parliamentary session began - in contemporary dating) but a number of academic works use 1536 (the date of Royal Assent, or the date the Act was "passed"). Lyndwood ( talk) 03:25, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
I just dropped by to check a date - this article talks of Wales being made part of The Kingdom of England by The Laws in Wales Acts - this is not true : please read them !
The Principality of Wales remained a separate realm in which Henry VIII and his successors could raise taxes as they pleased - and pack Parliament with obedient Welsh MPs !
James I more or less bankrupted Wales but eventually still ran out of money : the Welsh MPs rebelled and bargained with English MPs - no - they were on their knees begging !
James surrendered The Principality of Wales to The Happy Parliament of 1624 - and I have written about this on that page recently : 1624 is the date of the political union !
http://www.uwp.co.uk/editions/9780708319062?language=en = The Politics of the Principality : Wales 1603-1642 - Lloyd Bowen - University of Wales Press ( chapter 1 I think )
DaiSaw ( talk) 02:24, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
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were areas such as llanrothal cp welsh bicknor in wales after the acts or did this happen after the welsh biknor wiki thinks the latter im leaning towards the former? Editor account 2222 ( talk) 15:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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When have these acts been called the Act of Union 1536 and Act of Union 1543? When I studied the subject we referred to the 1543 act as the "Laws in Wales Act". Are these the legal names of the measures? If not, where do these names come from. They are *like* the later acts of union but it is anachronistic (surely) to apply the later term to the earlier act? Francis Davey 5 July 2005 20:44 (UTC)
Has this Act of Union repealed? I don't think so, Wales is still part of the UK... some aprts may have been rendered ineffective, but the majority of the Act is still in force, surely? (Some IP address Aug 2004) I'm inclined to agree, and will mak the change until someone more authoratative can change it back. Rich Farmbrough 09:34, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The section "the Welsh farmers of remoter districts found themselves adrift in amidst a legal and economic system whose language and focus were unfamiliar to them." seems a little dubious perhaps NPOV. Since the 13thC many of the King officials would have been opperating in French for legal/government matters in Wales [only slowly moving to English]. Much of this administration would have been so distant as to never involve a remote rural farmer so the distinction drawn seems stronger than the reality. Alci12
This page was moved to Laws in Wales Acts 1535-1542 from Acts of Union 1536-1543 by Owain on 25 Nov 2005 without any discussion. I'm going to move it back. If you want to move something, a {{move}} or {{mergeto}} tag should be inserted and it should be discussed. -- JW1805 (Talk) 21:57, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
There is no such Act of Parliament as the "Act of Union 1536" or "Act of Union 1543". The Acts are called the "Laws in Wales Act 1535" and "Laws in Wales Act 1542". Quite why you have moved the correctly-titled page back to an incorrect name baffles me. You have also screwed-up the ability for it to be simply moved back to it's correct title using the move facility, thereby forcing me to do a horrible cut/paste job to restore it. Thankfully, that's where all the edit history is, so it's not the end of the world. Owain 10:07, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I am proposing that this page be moved back to Acts of Union 1536-1543, which was the title for two years, and is the most commonly used term (see comments above). -- JW1805 (Talk) 15:38, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Not moved. Eugene van der Pijll 20:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
"a single legal jurisdiction, which is frequently referred to as England and Wales." - should read as "by extending the single legal jurisdiction of England, more recently this state is referred to as England and Wales.". The Welsh revolution is coming like the force of a mighty dripping tap! -- Pbhj 03:26, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
After much debate, the editors of the United Kingdom article seem to have settled on 1707 as being the foundation of the state (I note with concern though that this date lacks any external referencing, per official Wikipedia policy WP:VERIFY).
But this article - List of countries by formation dates - claims that the UK was actually founded in 1603 (again, completely unreferenced). Both articles cannot be correct, so which is it? Please come to the party armed with some proper external refs, because I am not sure if we can stomach yet another verbally diarrhetic Talk page splurge with largely consists of ad hominem attacks and statements of totally unsourced opinion. -- Mais oui! ( talk) 23:40, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
1603 is an error. England and Scotland come under the same personal rule of the sovereign James I (and VI of Scotland) in that year but the explicit Act of Union is indeed 1707. The United Kingdom can only be dated from that year. Jatrius ( talk) 10:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
The Belfast Agreement link should be removed from the 'Sovereignty' section as the agreement was not concerned with and did not alter sovereignty in Northern Ireland or the UK as a whole. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sjamesg ( talk • contribs) 19:09, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Why is the title 1535-1542 but the text refers to 1536-1543 ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahutchinson ( talk • contribs) 08:23, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
(I'm moving a discussion here from my talk page) -- Snowded TALK 18:02, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I've been working on the Law section of the Wales article and noticed Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542 looked odd. The Acts always seem to be referred to as having been passed in 1536 and 1543 ( John Davies and Gwenllian Lansdown for example). Although the full texts from the UK Statute Law Database ( http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?activeTextDocId=1517920&versionNumber=1 here) and ( http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?activeTextDocId=1518015&versionNumber=1 here) and the article title refer to 1535 and 1542. Any idea why? Daicaregos ( talk) 16:41, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Does this resolve the issue? It seems to give the official answer - the Laws in Wales Act 1535 and the Laws in Wales Act 1542. End of story, I think - there can't be anything more authoritative than the Chronological Table of Statutes, where those titles come from, can there? If that's right, presumably the article text needs to be changed, with some sort of explanation for the evident confusion over the dates. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 21:08, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
(Joining the discussion from a notice on the talk page of WP:LAW) My recollection of legal history, thin though it is, is that having the year in the title, and even the short title itself, are both relatively modern ideas; for centuries, the Acts of Parliament were known by the chapter number and regnal year (i.e. the 7th Act passed in the 9th year of the reign of Queen Nancy III would be referred to as "9 Nancy III c. 7"). There would be a "long title" (something like "An Act for doing something about something, and something else about another thing, and for related purposes") but no snappy short title. I'm not sure how the system worked when a Parliamentary session overlapped the anniversary of the monarch's accession, but it might be a question of whether the sources are using the start or end of the Parliamentary session in which the Act was passed to choose the date. And, in the absence of an official contemporary short title, I can see how different people would end up with different titles for the Acts. Bencherlite Talk 12:18, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
In the light of the above discussion, I propose that the text be revised. Although we don't know why this happened (and can't speculate), it seems clear (and referenced) that the official names of the legislation now (in English) are The Laws in Wales Act 1535 and The Laws in Wales Act 1542. So, I propose that the first para of the article be revised as follows:
The Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542 ( Welsh: Y Deddfau Uno 1535 a 1542) were parliamentary measures by which the legal system of Wales was annexed to England and the norms of English administration introduced in order to create a single state and a single legal jurisdiction, which is frequently referred to as England and Wales. The Acts were passed during the reign of King Henry VIII of England, who came from the Welsh Tudor dynasty. They have frequently been referred to as the Acts of Union of 1536 and 1543, but some scholars consider this name to be inaccurate, and their formal names are "The Laws in Wales Act 1535" [1] and "The Laws in Wales Act 1542". [2]
Further citations can be added from the above discussion, and there will be some consequent changes to the dates in later parts of the article. But, I think the proper names of the Acts are clear and the article should reflect those. Would anyone object to that change? Ghmyrtle ( talk) 19:44, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
The Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542 ( Welsh: Y Deddfau Uno 1535 a 1542) were parliamentary measures by which the legal system of Wales was annexed to England and the norms of English administration introduced. The intention was to create a single state and a single legal jurisdiction; frequently referred to as England and Wales. The Acts were passed during the reign of King Henry VIII of England, who came from the Welsh Tudor dynasty. They are frequently referred to as the Acts of Union of 1536 and 1543, but some scholars consider this name to be misleading. The Acts formal names are "The Laws in Wales Act 1535" [3] and "The Laws in Wales Act 1542". [4]
Pretty much the suggested version of Ghmyrtle, with a couple of tweeks. Daicaregos ( talk) 14:20, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
There are two separate things going on here. The first is to do with titles, the second with dates. Titles first: the titles of Acts of Parliament in the 16th C were what we now call the "long title" and were (are) often very long. As a result important Acts often acquired one or more popular titles or "nicknames". All modern Acts have a legal short title as well as a long title, and in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries the practice of retrospectively assigning a legal short title to important Acts still extant came about. In this particular example the legal short title of "The Laws in Wales Act" was conferred by the Statute Law Revision Act 1948, s.5 and Sch. 2. So that is currently the legal name notwithstanding any nicknames, however longstanding. Dates:a bit more complicated, but you can date an Act from the date of Royal Assent (the current practice), or from the contemporary date on which the parliamentary session started. So, for example, the 8th session of Henry VIII's 5th Parliament met between 4th Feb 1535/6 and 14th April 1536, but Royal assent would not have been given until 1536. That's why the official dates (e.g. HMSO) use 1535 (the year the Parliamentary session began - in contemporary dating) but a number of academic works use 1536 (the date of Royal Assent, or the date the Act was "passed"). Lyndwood ( talk) 03:25, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
I just dropped by to check a date - this article talks of Wales being made part of The Kingdom of England by The Laws in Wales Acts - this is not true : please read them !
The Principality of Wales remained a separate realm in which Henry VIII and his successors could raise taxes as they pleased - and pack Parliament with obedient Welsh MPs !
James I more or less bankrupted Wales but eventually still ran out of money : the Welsh MPs rebelled and bargained with English MPs - no - they were on their knees begging !
James surrendered The Principality of Wales to The Happy Parliament of 1624 - and I have written about this on that page recently : 1624 is the date of the political union !
http://www.uwp.co.uk/editions/9780708319062?language=en = The Politics of the Principality : Wales 1603-1642 - Lloyd Bowen - University of Wales Press ( chapter 1 I think )
DaiSaw ( talk) 02:24, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Laws in Wales Acts 1535 and 1542. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:40, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
were areas such as llanrothal cp welsh bicknor in wales after the acts or did this happen after the welsh biknor wiki thinks the latter im leaning towards the former? Editor account 2222 ( talk) 15:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC)