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This hypothesis is based in very specific (and peculiar) sources and does not follow NPOV (no criticisms, no other opinions).
It certainly ignores ancient historical sources that state that Cantabrians (west of modern southern Basques) and Aquitanians (historical northern Basques) were "relatives", as well as the fact that the ethnonym Vascones is first attested south of the Pyrenees (more or less, as the Pyrenees were never a real border) and later extended to include other Basque-speaking peoples such as the ancient Aquitani. It ignores the epygraphic evicence of Iruña-Veleia, the parallel in votive epygraphy at both sides of the Pyrenees (see: Aquitanian language, widespread toponimic evidence and, well, nearly everything of relevance in this issue.
Would the hypothesis be about an earlier and more obscure date, like the Bronze or Iron Age maybe, then it could make some sense. But this sounds to the lats piece of Spanish nationalist propaganda under a varnish of presumpt scholarship, much like the Vasco-Berber hypothesis or the reverse hypothesis of southern Basques conquering the north in the very same time frame, not long ago still held by the French academy.
The article is authored by a single anonymous author who backs it with a single unknown and probably not relevant author. The sources are no easy to contrast because they lack ISBN and the only online citation is a broken link (of a right-wing Spanish nationalist newspaper). -- Sugaar ( talk) 18:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
And the fact that ABC.es is conservativelly oriented is irrelevant to the matter, since it was not some of their editors' opinions which was quoted, instead it was quotations from a Spanish linguist on his recently published books. I've updated the link. The bibliography section is yet to be added because, as I said previously, new information will be added, and along with new bibliography, copied from the Castillian wikipedia. I thought only the books' names were necessary to consider a citation to be properly referenced, but I'm going to immediately add the bibliography section with the works cited as of now. 189.70.119.42 ( talk) 05:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
In the first version of the Spanish article a relevant quote by the linguist Larry Trask [1] was missing:
On the other hand, the geneticist Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza and his collegues have recently been constructing a genetic map of Europe, and they conclude that the Basques are, genetically speaking, strikingly different from their neighbours (Cavalli-Sforza 1988; Bertandpetit and Cavalli-Sforza 1991; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994. These workers find a sharply defined genetic gradient separating the population of the Basque Country from the other inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula, and somewaht more diffuse gradient separating them from the other people from France, with the south-west of France showing marked affinities with the Basque Country, an observation which is strongly in harmony with the linguistic evidence discussed below.
— p.9
Nevertheless, most specialists are satisfied that the Basque language was introduced into much of the Basque Country in post-Roman times, most likely during the Visigothic period discussed above. Consequently, the traditional view that Basque is a language of Spain which has extended itself to the north of the Pyrenees has had to be revised: wenow see Basque as a language of Gaul which spread south and west.
Even today, there is a debate about the likely frontiers of Aquitanian south of the Pyrenees. Some scholars would like to see the city of Calagurris in the Ebro valley, described by Roman sources as lying within the territory of the Vascones, as Basque-speaking, and some would place Basque-speakers in much of modern Aragon. Here I note that the evidence for such views is sparse in the extreme, and most specialists, I think, would be reluctant to posit Basque speech so far south and east.
[...] South of the Pyrenees, the language not only survived but apparently spread into the entire territory of the modern Basque Country, and, some time after the fourth century, probably earlier rather than later, Basque-speakers expanded into the Rioja and Burgos to the southwest. [...]— p. 39
At present there is an intense debate in the Spanish Wikipedia [1] [2] [3] on whether to delete, move or reorganise the article. A number of arguments have been introduced, being the strongest one, in my opinion, the claim that it contains "original research".
On the other hand
See my reference page with relevant fragments from all these authors showing different views on this appealing hypothesis [5]. Regards, -- JosebaAbaitua ( talk) 03:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The Wikipedia page on Iruña-Veleia says "It was alleged to contain the oldest known texts written in the Basque language as well as, allegedly, the oldest representation of the crucifixion of Jesus found to date, but soon after the findings proved to be fake" with citations. I am therefore deleting the reference to the supposed finds on this page. -- Genie ( talk) 21:59, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
References
I think this is important to mention and update: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/12/europe/spain-archeologist-sentenced-intl-scli/index.html "Spanish archaeologist gets jail sentence for faking his finds". A Spanish court in Vitoria-Gateiz has considered the supposed Iruña-Veleia epygraphic findinds (they were alleged to contain the oldest known texts written in the Basque language) as a proven forgery based on investigation. "On Wednesday, the head of a court in Vitoria-Gasteiz found Gil guilty of forgery and fraud, sentencing him to two years, three months and 23 days in prison." This means that an archaelogist has forged a finding to claim that Basque language was already spoken in a region than actually it was. This has serious implications. There are people that are quite hostile to the "Late Basquisation" hypothesis for a number a reasons, some of them are understandable, but this is beyond academical discussion.-- Bird Vision ( talk) 09:51, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
Julio Cesar tells us that Gaul was occupied by the Belgians Aquitans and Celts, with different customs, laws and languages. There are Roman and pre-Roman stelae written in Basque in what was then Aquitania, therefore it is logical to think that they spoke this language. When the Romans went into Aquitaine, acording to Cesar fifty thousand men from Aquitaine and Cantabria fought with them. Cantabrians were not supposed they are Celtic because they did not go to help them in previous years, in which Cesar massacred them and to help and understand to the aquitans, is needed to speak the same language. The latter is further confirmed by the writings of Strabo. "The aquitanos not only the language but also by body structure are more like the Iberians that the Gauls" Strabo IV 1 (176)
In my opinion 50 years BC the inhabitants of cantabric that Cesar call Cantabros, spoke the same language as the aquitans. They dont need to learn basque 600 years later . -- Nireizena ( talk) 23:50, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
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Although the lead mentions that it's a minority hypothesis, neither the body nor the lead mention why it's not mainstream. — Paleo Neonate – 20:05, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
We could just add "a hypothesis put forward by Villar" into the lead? Akerbeltz ( talk) 13:45, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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This hypothesis is based in very specific (and peculiar) sources and does not follow NPOV (no criticisms, no other opinions).
It certainly ignores ancient historical sources that state that Cantabrians (west of modern southern Basques) and Aquitanians (historical northern Basques) were "relatives", as well as the fact that the ethnonym Vascones is first attested south of the Pyrenees (more or less, as the Pyrenees were never a real border) and later extended to include other Basque-speaking peoples such as the ancient Aquitani. It ignores the epygraphic evicence of Iruña-Veleia, the parallel in votive epygraphy at both sides of the Pyrenees (see: Aquitanian language, widespread toponimic evidence and, well, nearly everything of relevance in this issue.
Would the hypothesis be about an earlier and more obscure date, like the Bronze or Iron Age maybe, then it could make some sense. But this sounds to the lats piece of Spanish nationalist propaganda under a varnish of presumpt scholarship, much like the Vasco-Berber hypothesis or the reverse hypothesis of southern Basques conquering the north in the very same time frame, not long ago still held by the French academy.
The article is authored by a single anonymous author who backs it with a single unknown and probably not relevant author. The sources are no easy to contrast because they lack ISBN and the only online citation is a broken link (of a right-wing Spanish nationalist newspaper). -- Sugaar ( talk) 18:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
And the fact that ABC.es is conservativelly oriented is irrelevant to the matter, since it was not some of their editors' opinions which was quoted, instead it was quotations from a Spanish linguist on his recently published books. I've updated the link. The bibliography section is yet to be added because, as I said previously, new information will be added, and along with new bibliography, copied from the Castillian wikipedia. I thought only the books' names were necessary to consider a citation to be properly referenced, but I'm going to immediately add the bibliography section with the works cited as of now. 189.70.119.42 ( talk) 05:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
In the first version of the Spanish article a relevant quote by the linguist Larry Trask [1] was missing:
On the other hand, the geneticist Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza and his collegues have recently been constructing a genetic map of Europe, and they conclude that the Basques are, genetically speaking, strikingly different from their neighbours (Cavalli-Sforza 1988; Bertandpetit and Cavalli-Sforza 1991; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994. These workers find a sharply defined genetic gradient separating the population of the Basque Country from the other inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula, and somewaht more diffuse gradient separating them from the other people from France, with the south-west of France showing marked affinities with the Basque Country, an observation which is strongly in harmony with the linguistic evidence discussed below.
— p.9
Nevertheless, most specialists are satisfied that the Basque language was introduced into much of the Basque Country in post-Roman times, most likely during the Visigothic period discussed above. Consequently, the traditional view that Basque is a language of Spain which has extended itself to the north of the Pyrenees has had to be revised: wenow see Basque as a language of Gaul which spread south and west.
Even today, there is a debate about the likely frontiers of Aquitanian south of the Pyrenees. Some scholars would like to see the city of Calagurris in the Ebro valley, described by Roman sources as lying within the territory of the Vascones, as Basque-speaking, and some would place Basque-speakers in much of modern Aragon. Here I note that the evidence for such views is sparse in the extreme, and most specialists, I think, would be reluctant to posit Basque speech so far south and east.
[...] South of the Pyrenees, the language not only survived but apparently spread into the entire territory of the modern Basque Country, and, some time after the fourth century, probably earlier rather than later, Basque-speakers expanded into the Rioja and Burgos to the southwest. [...]— p. 39
At present there is an intense debate in the Spanish Wikipedia [1] [2] [3] on whether to delete, move or reorganise the article. A number of arguments have been introduced, being the strongest one, in my opinion, the claim that it contains "original research".
On the other hand
See my reference page with relevant fragments from all these authors showing different views on this appealing hypothesis [5]. Regards, -- JosebaAbaitua ( talk) 03:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The Wikipedia page on Iruña-Veleia says "It was alleged to contain the oldest known texts written in the Basque language as well as, allegedly, the oldest representation of the crucifixion of Jesus found to date, but soon after the findings proved to be fake" with citations. I am therefore deleting the reference to the supposed finds on this page. -- Genie ( talk) 21:59, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
References
I think this is important to mention and update: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/12/europe/spain-archeologist-sentenced-intl-scli/index.html "Spanish archaeologist gets jail sentence for faking his finds". A Spanish court in Vitoria-Gateiz has considered the supposed Iruña-Veleia epygraphic findinds (they were alleged to contain the oldest known texts written in the Basque language) as a proven forgery based on investigation. "On Wednesday, the head of a court in Vitoria-Gasteiz found Gil guilty of forgery and fraud, sentencing him to two years, three months and 23 days in prison." This means that an archaelogist has forged a finding to claim that Basque language was already spoken in a region than actually it was. This has serious implications. There are people that are quite hostile to the "Late Basquisation" hypothesis for a number a reasons, some of them are understandable, but this is beyond academical discussion.-- Bird Vision ( talk) 09:51, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
Julio Cesar tells us that Gaul was occupied by the Belgians Aquitans and Celts, with different customs, laws and languages. There are Roman and pre-Roman stelae written in Basque in what was then Aquitania, therefore it is logical to think that they spoke this language. When the Romans went into Aquitaine, acording to Cesar fifty thousand men from Aquitaine and Cantabria fought with them. Cantabrians were not supposed they are Celtic because they did not go to help them in previous years, in which Cesar massacred them and to help and understand to the aquitans, is needed to speak the same language. The latter is further confirmed by the writings of Strabo. "The aquitanos not only the language but also by body structure are more like the Iberians that the Gauls" Strabo IV 1 (176)
In my opinion 50 years BC the inhabitants of cantabric that Cesar call Cantabros, spoke the same language as the aquitans. They dont need to learn basque 600 years later . -- Nireizena ( talk) 23:50, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Late Basquisation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
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(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:05, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
Although the lead mentions that it's a minority hypothesis, neither the body nor the lead mention why it's not mainstream. — Paleo Neonate – 20:05, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
We could just add "a hypothesis put forward by Villar" into the lead? Akerbeltz ( talk) 13:45, 16 February 2023 (UTC)