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I think I read somewhere (I can't remember where) that Kiro's sister self-identifies as Bulgarian. Does anyone have any information about it? -- Telex 14:40, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Here are your sources
HERE (from the oficial website of the President of Republic of Macedonia).
It says:
The First president of the Republic of Macedonia was Kiro Gligorov, he performed this function in 2 terms, from 1991 to 1999. Kiro Gligorov is born on May 3rd 1917 in Stip. Graduated from Faculty of Law at the University of Belgrade. Participant in national liberation struggle in 1941.
Member and responsible for finance in the
ASNOM Presidium (finance commissioner- повереник). Secretary of State for finance in Federal executive Council, member of SFRY Presidency as well as President of the Assembly of SFRY.
He was elected President of the Republic of Macedonia on January 27th 1991 and re-elected on November 19th 1994. Served as President of the Republic until November 19th 1999.
Here's also a photo incl. him, Chento and other guys at the
ASNOM gathering-
CLICK HERE (from the
oficial webiste of the State Archives of Macedonia, the project was sponsored by Soros foundation so dont be suprised that u will see soros.org). Unfortunatelly the pic is bad, but blame them not me (that website was made in times of dial up internet, more than 10 years ago (I also have the promotional cd-rom that they were giving for presentation purposes). On the pic, Kiro is the last guy on the right (smiling with big nose talking to his mate). A good version of this pic can bee seen at the Museum of Macedonia in Skopje
And I forgot to add that his citizenship certificates mean absolutely nothing as oficial Bulgaria anexed these territories in 1941. If
Nauru took this territories back then instead of Bulgaria, he would logically have had a Nauruan citizenship. Before Bulgaria came in 1941, he had a citizenship of
Kingdom of Yugoslavia (as he's from
Shtip) so should I take that as an evidence that he was a serbian, croat or slovene (the only constitutional nations recognized back then)? Also, after the WWII he had high positions in the politics in the Tito's Yugoslavia, nothing is mentioned about that too. He was a part of the establishment that advocated the "macedonism" from its very start (ASNOM). Anyway, its really ridiculuous that an article and the discussion about such an important politician in the region during really hard times is mainly concentrating on this absurd and irrelevant thing "is he really a Bulgarian or not" while at the same completely disregarding the really relevant things. As I see same happens with the article about Ljubcho Georgievski. This article is absolutely ridiculuous, I can't beleive that anyone sane would take it seriously.
And you still haven't answer me: What about those bulgarians who have been forced to declare different nationality during certain historical periods? Should I now dig around and find some documents and waive with them saying "AHA! see? haaa they VOLUNTARILY declared as Greeks, Serbs, Turks or whatever". You will not fool anyone with documents made under special circumstances. Many Slovenians have been forced to declare as Germans or Austrians or whatever during certain periods, many Croats in
Dalmatia were forced to declare as Italians, many Vojvodina Serbs were a subject of "maygyarisation", many Ukrainians were forced to be "Russians" etc..etc.. You lnow that every empire wanted to impose its national(istic) policy towards its subjects. You will convince me now that someone feeling as an "ethnic Macedonian" could freely declare as such during Metaxas for example?? You are not idiots (I hope) --
Vbb-sk-mk 14:34, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Did Kiro say this cause he was Bulgarian or FYROMian? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyOubwyWgNQ&feature=channel_page No? Maybe this had something to do with his assassination? 89.210.169.135 ( talk) 12:43, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
58.165.112.104 ( talk)
Kiro Gligorov said it best in 1993 'We are Slavs, We have no connection with Alexander the Great. We came here in the 6th Century AD. Macedonia was always Greek.' 58.165.112.104 ( talk) 08:59, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
I would like to ask the member Funkyfly to explain me the last changes.
The person in the article is important to the rest of the world only as a former president of the
Republic of Macedonia under his name KIRO GLIGOROV and ONLY KIRO GLIGOROV. Not Blagoje, not Blagoev, not Blagojevich, not Bruce Springsteen, not Ghengis Khan, not Napoleon. Why would be so important for an occasional internet surfer how this person is called in
Republic of Bulgaria? If thats so important, lets put how his name is written or pronunced in chinese, arabic, lithuanian etc.
BTW Blagoja is probably his father's name, so Blagoev is logically a
Patronymic. As patronymics unlike in Russia are not widely used here, in THIS COUNTRY WHERE KIRO GLIGOROV WAS A PRESIDENT, that "Blagoev" is completely irrelevant. The whole Planet Earth knows him as KIRO GLIGOROV.
Then also have in mind that his hometown was under serbian rule in the period between WWI and WWII and what is today Republic of Macedonia was considered as south Serbia. The people were forced to declare as serbs and the serbian language was forcibly imposed as official language. the personal names were changed into serbian forms, if you were Mitre Mitrevski you would become Mitar Mirić, so accordingly Kiro Gligorov became Ćira Gligorović. Should I now add the serbian form of his name in the article?! Well, I may say that under that form he was listed in all the administrative documents of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Who knows, someone could also find some document from his studies in Belgrade in the 1930s where he claims he is "serbian"?!
this is absurd.--
Vbb-sk-mk 18:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I explained you everything: no one can take seriously documents made in special circumstances, especially made during rule of the bulgarian
fascism (which btw killed thousands of Jews in my homecity Skopje in 1943). That was not a democratic system, so the freedom of national self-identification was not guaranteed then. Stop making fools of all of us. I repeat he was also known as Ćira Gligorović once and listed as serbian (certainly he couldnt be listed as bulgarian or ethnic macedonian dureing the
Kingdom of Yugoslavia). should i now waste my energy to look for any such serbian document and put it in the article? No. cause its irrelevant. What is relevant is that he was an important politician of Republic of Macedonia from the very day this state was born.
Also everyone should note one thing, those scanned documents you provide to support your claims are from a website of a nationalist political party in Bulgaria
VMRO-BND (wikipedia article:
IMRO - Bulgarian National Movement). That itself is not wrong, but I smell BIAS here, since they are openly opponents of "macedonism" and Gligorov as one of its exponents, so with these scans they probably wanted to discredit him (regardless of whether the documents are true or fakes) --
Vbb-sk-mk 19:10, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
first for Tekleni: You are basically right, but you forget that I said what I said in the context of the rights of ethnic self-determination, thats what we are particulary talking about here. You couldn't just declare "Im an etnic Macedonian" during the Bulgarian rule of what is today
Republic of Macedonia, as you were not allowed to declare "Im a bulgarian, etnic macedonian etc...etc.." during the Metaxas rule in Greece and there are plenty of other examples around the world through the history. Tsarist Bulgaria was not a democratic country as Metaxas's Greece was not too. Nazism/fascism goes together with extreme nationalism so assimilation, suppression of certain nationalities, forcible change of personal names and toponyms and so on were common policies of many fascist regimes.
For Funkyfly: Every human being in this country use to have a bulgarian citizenship when this territory was a part of Bulgaria. My own father has a Bulgarian birth certificate cause he's born during the WWII. so what? that means nothing. if he was born before/after the war he would have a different one. the territory was anexed by Bulgaria (see wikipedia:
annexation) and Bulgarian national policies, laws and administration were imposed here. And not only that. Before the WWII every alive human being here (incl. Gligorov) use to have citizenship of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and were forced to sign they're 'south SERBS'. What do you think, he could just say "Im a macedonian" or "Im a bulgarian" when signing up for the University in Belgrade? And what do you mean he never revoked his bulgarian citizenship? He was with the partisans who fought those bulgarian authorities, he was one of the leading founders of ASNOM, what better example do you want that he was against that Bulgarian rule? --
Vbb-sk-mk 20:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Your blindness has no borders Funkyfly. My father couldnt choose to get a birth certificate as he was just BORN. he was A BABY. you are so arrogant that you are not even reading my posts. And your statements regarding the "voluntarily issuing of certificates" are absolutely ridiculuous. Lets say you are a parent, you cannot just say "well..im not going to get a birth certificate, to hell with the authorities". Its an important document for life regardless of the current political situation (whether it was a Bulgarian or Serbian or Turkish or whatever rule). It gives some basic info on the person like place of birth, date of birth, the administration that issued it etc. -- Vbb-sk-mk 20:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Well actually my grandparents did went to the mountains to shoot at your army, don't worry about that. As for the importance of documents in modern times , we are not living in caves. Systems come and go, but to finish any bureaucratic stuff a birth certificate is essential, when a child is born normal people always get that thing, regardless whether under serbs, bulgars, turks, greeks etc. Also, WHY DID YOU REVERTED MY LAST CHANGES? There was absolutely no reason for that. I have just added detailed explanations for the sources of those documents. They are indeed published on THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE OF THE POLITICAL PARTY IN BULGARIA VMRO-BND (section for the city of Plovdiv) arent they? You cannot change that fact. His Royal Highness THE READER OF WIKIPEDIA has every right to know clearly WHO PUBLISHED THOSE DOCUMENTS, to know WHAT KIND OF SOURCE IS THAT EXACTLY. Is it academic? is it a newspaper? is it something else? Your explanation for the last revertion is "Unecesary". If that info was unecesary for you, you dont have to read it, but for the readers IT IS important. Milions of people use Wikipedia they have a right to know what links they are CLICKING. I will put those explanations back in the external links section and I have every right to do so-- Vbb-sk-mk 21:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
my parents were just born so they couldnt, again you are not reading me. but enough about my family. i just mentioned them once in the context of citizenship and you just continued as it is really important. I checked the wikipedia rules you are pointing out, I really don't see how am I "disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point". Maybe Im disrupting you personally instead. What I know is that I have to Be bold in updating pages (
Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages).
Now, why should I not to put those explanations back?
According to the Wikipedia rules for citing sources:
Wikipedia:Citing sources:
Annotation reporting the POV of a particular source will help our users.- thats exactly what i was doing
Also on
Wikipedia:External links: On articles with multiple points of view, a link to prominent sites dedicated to each, with a detailed explanation of each link. The number of links dedicated to one point of view should not overwhelm the number dedicated to any other. One should attempt to add comments to these links informing the reader of their point of view. If one point of view dominates informed opinion, that should be represented first. (For more information, see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view – in particular, Wikipedia's guidelines on undue weight.).
I explained everything according to the RULES (which you obviously try to avoid), those DETAILED EXPLANATIONS MUST BE PLACED BACK NOW.--
Vbb-sk-mk 22:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Its only your personal impression that I want to present those EXTERNAL LINKS as unreliable in some sence.As this is not your personal website - your personal judgement doesn't neceserily have to be a LAW here. THE WIKIPEDIA RULES SAY CLEARLY: Detailed explanation of every external link. Those documents are placed on the official website of the political party in the Republic of Bulgaria VMRO-BND, (their section for Plovdiv), the readers have every right to know what they are clicking! -- Vbb-sk-mk 23:16, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Aldux, In case you dont understand Bulgarian: "Kiro Gligorov is a bulgarian citizennational, honest and trustworthy". He obtained that document on his own will, and attached it to his application. He even obtained two of those, one from the Stip municipality, and one from the Skopie one. (links 1 and 2).
/FunkyFly.talk_ 14:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
FunkyFly and Aldux have debated over the inclusion of the Bulgarian language for Kiro's name in the intro via edit summaries and through me in my and their talks. First off, I must say that I personally hate all those 'grey-area' alternate language debates, which are very frequent in the controversial (and non-so-controversial) articles we all edit. I've made an attempt to describe this debate below. Feel free to add to it if I've ommitted anything, and comment below. Thanks. •NikoSilver• 13:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Include Bulgarian
|
Do not include
|
And I forgot one important point: this is a biography of a living person. Its against the rules to add questionable statements to it -- Dzole 01:42, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
comment - Then where such claims originate from Foreigner? You just want them to remain in the article without providing any source? How come you get unpunished by the wikipedia admins? Those external links lead to the official website of the nationalist political party
VMRO-BND in Bulgaria (its Plovidv office):
http://vmropd.org/pic_news/205-2.jpg
http://vmropd.org/pic_news/205-3.jpg
http://vmropd.org/pic_news/205-4.jpg
In Bulgarian:
© 2006 ВМРО-БНД - гр.Пловдив Всички права запазени.
Stop fooling people and stop your vandalic behaviour. You are not an admin here to shape wikipedia according to your personal political preferences. Neither this article nor any other article is your private property. As long as the edits are properly sourced and explained you have absolutely no right to revert them. Moreover, you add fake edit summaries claiming that what you revert is for example vandalizm even if the contribution in question was valid. Just an example: a while ago you reverted my VMRO-BND additions to this article claiming that "the party doesnt say that" while these "documents" are hosted on its official website? See: 02:46, 7 November 2007 ForeignerFromTheEast (Talk | contribs) (8,971 bytes) (unnecessary, the claim is not by the party) . Then by whom it is? -- Dzole 18:36, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
provide sources and stop this behaviour -- Dzole 19:00, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
what sources? -- Dzole 19:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
by which relevant institution or organization they are published? -- Dzole 19:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
You dont have any proof for such claims -- Dzole 21:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
you know very well that you are wrong, i wonder why no one reacts. those poorly scanned pics are not sources. point some valid scientific institution or organization that published them and that guarantees their veracity -- Dzole 21:42, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
will the external links to those scanned documents remain? -- Dzole 22:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
User: Jingiby returned the questionable Bulgarian links (scanned documents) that were removed yesterday and he or she added references to certain newspaper articles
This newspaper reports about Ljubcho Georgievski's Bulgarian citizenship. I do not dispute that, but how is this relevant to Gligorov? The newspaper claims BTW that also Gligorov declared Bulgarian ethnicity and aquired Bulgarian citizenship but during World War II, providing no further explanations (just one sentence). Its the same as if Macedonian nationalist newspaper would claim that the president of Bulgaria is "ethnic Macedonian".
Quote from "Struma": nonsence: Както е известно, дългогодишният и най-авторитетен президент на Македония Киро Глигоров, който е учил от 1941 до 1944 година в гимназията на Кюстендил, официално там заявявал, че е българин, от стар български род, но по-късно заради личния си политически интерес “забрави” произхода си и стана флагман на създадената изкуствено от Коминтерна в границите на бивша Югославия Република Македония.
translation: as it is known the pres. of Macedonia Kiro Gligorov, who studied at the Kyustendil Gymnasium 1941-1944 officialy declared Bulgarian ethnicity. (end of quote)
Kiro Gligorov couldnt study at GYMNASIUM as he was a grown up man then with a diploma from the Belgrade University of Law.
This newspaper just reports what Struma said. Its not confirming the veracity of the claims represented in Struma. Its just an informational article. Jingiby falsely represents this as "a Macedonian newspaper also claims (confirms) that Gligorov declared Bulgarian ethnicity".
direct quote from Vest: И поранешниот претседател Киро Глигоров од 1041 до 1944 во Ќустендил признал дека е Бугарин, а подоцна заборавил што рекол", пишува "Струма".
translation: And the former Mac. Pres. Kiro Gligorov from 1041(?!) to 1944 in Kyustendil(?!) recognized that he is Bulgarian, but later "forgot" what he had said, as the newspaper Struma reports
Jingiby also added another questionable document scan hosted at the personal nationalist website: http://balkani.hit.bg/Pod42.jpg The website belongs to Anton Zhelev Ivanov, a member of VMRO-BND: Author's biography
Jingiby absuses the fact that many third party wikipedia readers or admins do not understand macedonian and bulgarian to smuggle-in irrelevant or falsely interpreted sources that they can not verify.
Although my english is definetly not perfect, let me also note that he misspels "former" as "vormer", "law" as "low" and often "were" as "ware". Obviously they are not just occassional typos because they are spreaded in several article that Jingby has edited. -- Dzole 16:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Im afraid the other side ignores my explanations on the talk page. As you can see Jingiby has not responded with proper counter-arguments. Moreover he continues a "revertion war" at Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo -- Dzole 16:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Can we use a better picture? Preferably one before the assassination attempt. Politis ( talk) 16:35, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
How this could be truth? Josip Broz Tito was 88 when he died as president of SFRJ. Saigon from europe ( talk) 11:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
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Long-standing sentence was deleted with explanation of lacking sources by a new IP, that is WP:SPA. After 4 sources were added the deletion continues. This is obviously some form of vandalism. Jingiby ( talk) 12:17, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Tosatur ( talk · contribs) 11:51, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
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Hello, I just wanted to introduce myself and let you know I am glad to be reviewing the article [[Talk:
Kiro Gligorov/GA|
Kiro Gligorov]] in which you've been a major contributor, and has been nominated for
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· · · |
I made a few edits during the review. My thoughts are below:
I think there are quite a few things in this article which need further explanation. They might be clear to someone who is more familiar with the topic but not a casual reader. This could be a link or an explanation in the paragraph. For example:
"On 29 May 1996, in Helsinki, a solemn statement by Gligorov confirmed the accession of the Republic of Macedonia to the CSCE Final Document."
Why was the statement solemn? What is the CSCE Final Document?
"He was released on the orders of Skopje Mayor Spiro Kitinchev, who guaranteed that he was a trustworthy Bulgarian."
What does "trustworthy Bulgarian" mean here? This should be explained in more detail.
His vice president/prime minister is only mentioned in the infobox. Also, there should probably be a note explaining that Macedonia only had 1 vice-president in 1991.
"Gligorov was of the opinion that Albanians would always have a share in the governing of Macedonia."
I think this needs more clarification. It isn't explained anywhere that Albanians are a significant minority in Macedonia. Also, how did he think this "share" should be implemented? Why did he then dismiss the Albanian demands for greater rights in 2001?
The first paragraph in the Personal life and death section is more at home in the Honours section.
The Politics section could use some subheadings, separating his service in Yugoslavia from his service in SR Macedonia and the Republic of Macedonia.
"In 2017, he was posthumously honoured with the Order "Saint Nicholas" (St. Nikola) by the Municipality of Štip."
Shouldn't this simply say "The Order of Saint Nicholas" (and optionally, the name of the award in Macedonian)
"He was awarded the Mediterranean Peace Prize on 5 January 1998 in Naples."
I found two more accessible sources for this: [3] [4]
I don't think this source looks reliable. It could be removed without invalidating any of the statements made in the article.
The article seems well-illustrated, stable, and neutral, and I haven't found any issues with verifiability.
Tosatur ( talk) 13:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Gligorov, Kiro (1917-) Macedonian politician and president of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (1991-1999). After he finished law school at Belgrade University, Kiro Gligorov worked in private banking until the beginning of World War II. In 1941 he joined the partisan movement and was accepted into the KPJ in 1944. After World War II he became the Yugoslav finance minister (1962-1967), vice president (1967-1969), a member of the Yugoslav presidency (1969-1972), and president of the Yugoslav Parliament (1974-1978). He was elected president of the presidency of Macedonia in 1990, reelected in 1994, and then badly wounded in an attempt on his life on 3 October 1995. He retired in 1999.An archived version of the source is available online.
@ Tosatur asked me to have a quick look at the review (I'm listed as a GA mentor) - some observations: the article's lede is too short and needs to be expanded (see MOS:LEDE), the section on his role in Yugoslavia is too short (yes, he is most widely known for his role in North Macedonia's independence, but this part overwhelms the article at present) and the article appears to lack neutrality.
In many sources, he's repeatedly referred to as a close associate of Tito and a key official in Yugoslavia ("a comrade of Josip Broz (Tito) and high-ranking member of the former socialist elite" (p.311) Constitutional Politics in Central and Eastern Europe: From Post-Socialist Transition to the Reform of Political Systems). Furthermore, the overall tone of the article is uncritical - reading the article he does not appear to be subject to a single criticism. However, from a quick search, for example, I find the following: "The Communist Party of Yugoslavia (CPY) finance minister who most furthered early Yugoslav economic reform (beginning in May 1952) was a Macedonian named Kiro Gligorov... One consequence of his actions, nonetheless, was the rise in corrupt misuse of such loosened financial accountability and the subsequent abuse of funds" ( Paradigm Lost: Yugoslav Self-Management and the Economics of Disaster). Or "Gligorov is still blamed for his attempt to save Yugoslavia (through the so-called Gligovor-Izetbegovic proposal) instead of leading the process of establishing the state’s independence, something that the other republic leaders had been doing for quite some time before the federation’s final demise." (p. 104 Civic and Uncivic Values in Macedonia)
His character is more complex than the article indicates: described as "the fox of the Balkans" (p.53 Macedonia: Warlords and Rebels in the Balkans), "his genius for survival and solutions - which earned him the nickname "the fox""(p.43 The Wreckage Reconsidered: Five Oxymorons from Balkan Deconstruction), "the wily Kiro Gligorov - whose survival through four decades of communism earned him the nickname the fox" (p.212 Yugoslavia: Death of a Nation).
With the lack of focus on the Yugoslav period and the overly positive framing, I'd be somewhat concerned that the article does not meet the criteria for "broad coverage" or neutrality ( criteria 3 and 4 of a good article). No doubt, sources do evaluate Gligorov positively in areas (eg "credited with keeping Macedonia out of the War of Yugoslav Succession" (p.4 Civic and Uncivic Values in Macedonia) - but that's not the full picture and I feel the article needs to address those other areas to achieve GA status. Regards, -- Goldsztajn ( talk) 22:48, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
I have decided to promote this article to GA. I find that it meets all the GA criteria.
The issues with neutrality mentioned earlier were settled by including criticisms of Gligorov. The issues regarding verifiability were solved also. I have found no major issues in the article's prose. The article contains a decent amount of images to satisfy the GA criteria. Tosatur ( talk) 06:13, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.
Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.StephenMacky1 ( talk) 16:31, 9 April 2024 (UTC).
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I think I read somewhere (I can't remember where) that Kiro's sister self-identifies as Bulgarian. Does anyone have any information about it? -- Telex 14:40, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Here are your sources
HERE (from the oficial website of the President of Republic of Macedonia).
It says:
The First president of the Republic of Macedonia was Kiro Gligorov, he performed this function in 2 terms, from 1991 to 1999. Kiro Gligorov is born on May 3rd 1917 in Stip. Graduated from Faculty of Law at the University of Belgrade. Participant in national liberation struggle in 1941.
Member and responsible for finance in the
ASNOM Presidium (finance commissioner- повереник). Secretary of State for finance in Federal executive Council, member of SFRY Presidency as well as President of the Assembly of SFRY.
He was elected President of the Republic of Macedonia on January 27th 1991 and re-elected on November 19th 1994. Served as President of the Republic until November 19th 1999.
Here's also a photo incl. him, Chento and other guys at the
ASNOM gathering-
CLICK HERE (from the
oficial webiste of the State Archives of Macedonia, the project was sponsored by Soros foundation so dont be suprised that u will see soros.org). Unfortunatelly the pic is bad, but blame them not me (that website was made in times of dial up internet, more than 10 years ago (I also have the promotional cd-rom that they were giving for presentation purposes). On the pic, Kiro is the last guy on the right (smiling with big nose talking to his mate). A good version of this pic can bee seen at the Museum of Macedonia in Skopje
And I forgot to add that his citizenship certificates mean absolutely nothing as oficial Bulgaria anexed these territories in 1941. If
Nauru took this territories back then instead of Bulgaria, he would logically have had a Nauruan citizenship. Before Bulgaria came in 1941, he had a citizenship of
Kingdom of Yugoslavia (as he's from
Shtip) so should I take that as an evidence that he was a serbian, croat or slovene (the only constitutional nations recognized back then)? Also, after the WWII he had high positions in the politics in the Tito's Yugoslavia, nothing is mentioned about that too. He was a part of the establishment that advocated the "macedonism" from its very start (ASNOM). Anyway, its really ridiculuous that an article and the discussion about such an important politician in the region during really hard times is mainly concentrating on this absurd and irrelevant thing "is he really a Bulgarian or not" while at the same completely disregarding the really relevant things. As I see same happens with the article about Ljubcho Georgievski. This article is absolutely ridiculuous, I can't beleive that anyone sane would take it seriously.
And you still haven't answer me: What about those bulgarians who have been forced to declare different nationality during certain historical periods? Should I now dig around and find some documents and waive with them saying "AHA! see? haaa they VOLUNTARILY declared as Greeks, Serbs, Turks or whatever". You will not fool anyone with documents made under special circumstances. Many Slovenians have been forced to declare as Germans or Austrians or whatever during certain periods, many Croats in
Dalmatia were forced to declare as Italians, many Vojvodina Serbs were a subject of "maygyarisation", many Ukrainians were forced to be "Russians" etc..etc.. You lnow that every empire wanted to impose its national(istic) policy towards its subjects. You will convince me now that someone feeling as an "ethnic Macedonian" could freely declare as such during Metaxas for example?? You are not idiots (I hope) --
Vbb-sk-mk 14:34, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Did Kiro say this cause he was Bulgarian or FYROMian? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyOubwyWgNQ&feature=channel_page No? Maybe this had something to do with his assassination? 89.210.169.135 ( talk) 12:43, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
58.165.112.104 ( talk)
Kiro Gligorov said it best in 1993 'We are Slavs, We have no connection with Alexander the Great. We came here in the 6th Century AD. Macedonia was always Greek.' 58.165.112.104 ( talk) 08:59, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
I would like to ask the member Funkyfly to explain me the last changes.
The person in the article is important to the rest of the world only as a former president of the
Republic of Macedonia under his name KIRO GLIGOROV and ONLY KIRO GLIGOROV. Not Blagoje, not Blagoev, not Blagojevich, not Bruce Springsteen, not Ghengis Khan, not Napoleon. Why would be so important for an occasional internet surfer how this person is called in
Republic of Bulgaria? If thats so important, lets put how his name is written or pronunced in chinese, arabic, lithuanian etc.
BTW Blagoja is probably his father's name, so Blagoev is logically a
Patronymic. As patronymics unlike in Russia are not widely used here, in THIS COUNTRY WHERE KIRO GLIGOROV WAS A PRESIDENT, that "Blagoev" is completely irrelevant. The whole Planet Earth knows him as KIRO GLIGOROV.
Then also have in mind that his hometown was under serbian rule in the period between WWI and WWII and what is today Republic of Macedonia was considered as south Serbia. The people were forced to declare as serbs and the serbian language was forcibly imposed as official language. the personal names were changed into serbian forms, if you were Mitre Mitrevski you would become Mitar Mirić, so accordingly Kiro Gligorov became Ćira Gligorović. Should I now add the serbian form of his name in the article?! Well, I may say that under that form he was listed in all the administrative documents of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Who knows, someone could also find some document from his studies in Belgrade in the 1930s where he claims he is "serbian"?!
this is absurd.--
Vbb-sk-mk 18:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I explained you everything: no one can take seriously documents made in special circumstances, especially made during rule of the bulgarian
fascism (which btw killed thousands of Jews in my homecity Skopje in 1943). That was not a democratic system, so the freedom of national self-identification was not guaranteed then. Stop making fools of all of us. I repeat he was also known as Ćira Gligorović once and listed as serbian (certainly he couldnt be listed as bulgarian or ethnic macedonian dureing the
Kingdom of Yugoslavia). should i now waste my energy to look for any such serbian document and put it in the article? No. cause its irrelevant. What is relevant is that he was an important politician of Republic of Macedonia from the very day this state was born.
Also everyone should note one thing, those scanned documents you provide to support your claims are from a website of a nationalist political party in Bulgaria
VMRO-BND (wikipedia article:
IMRO - Bulgarian National Movement). That itself is not wrong, but I smell BIAS here, since they are openly opponents of "macedonism" and Gligorov as one of its exponents, so with these scans they probably wanted to discredit him (regardless of whether the documents are true or fakes) --
Vbb-sk-mk 19:10, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
first for Tekleni: You are basically right, but you forget that I said what I said in the context of the rights of ethnic self-determination, thats what we are particulary talking about here. You couldn't just declare "Im an etnic Macedonian" during the Bulgarian rule of what is today
Republic of Macedonia, as you were not allowed to declare "Im a bulgarian, etnic macedonian etc...etc.." during the Metaxas rule in Greece and there are plenty of other examples around the world through the history. Tsarist Bulgaria was not a democratic country as Metaxas's Greece was not too. Nazism/fascism goes together with extreme nationalism so assimilation, suppression of certain nationalities, forcible change of personal names and toponyms and so on were common policies of many fascist regimes.
For Funkyfly: Every human being in this country use to have a bulgarian citizenship when this territory was a part of Bulgaria. My own father has a Bulgarian birth certificate cause he's born during the WWII. so what? that means nothing. if he was born before/after the war he would have a different one. the territory was anexed by Bulgaria (see wikipedia:
annexation) and Bulgarian national policies, laws and administration were imposed here. And not only that. Before the WWII every alive human being here (incl. Gligorov) use to have citizenship of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and were forced to sign they're 'south SERBS'. What do you think, he could just say "Im a macedonian" or "Im a bulgarian" when signing up for the University in Belgrade? And what do you mean he never revoked his bulgarian citizenship? He was with the partisans who fought those bulgarian authorities, he was one of the leading founders of ASNOM, what better example do you want that he was against that Bulgarian rule? --
Vbb-sk-mk 20:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Your blindness has no borders Funkyfly. My father couldnt choose to get a birth certificate as he was just BORN. he was A BABY. you are so arrogant that you are not even reading my posts. And your statements regarding the "voluntarily issuing of certificates" are absolutely ridiculuous. Lets say you are a parent, you cannot just say "well..im not going to get a birth certificate, to hell with the authorities". Its an important document for life regardless of the current political situation (whether it was a Bulgarian or Serbian or Turkish or whatever rule). It gives some basic info on the person like place of birth, date of birth, the administration that issued it etc. -- Vbb-sk-mk 20:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Well actually my grandparents did went to the mountains to shoot at your army, don't worry about that. As for the importance of documents in modern times , we are not living in caves. Systems come and go, but to finish any bureaucratic stuff a birth certificate is essential, when a child is born normal people always get that thing, regardless whether under serbs, bulgars, turks, greeks etc. Also, WHY DID YOU REVERTED MY LAST CHANGES? There was absolutely no reason for that. I have just added detailed explanations for the sources of those documents. They are indeed published on THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE OF THE POLITICAL PARTY IN BULGARIA VMRO-BND (section for the city of Plovdiv) arent they? You cannot change that fact. His Royal Highness THE READER OF WIKIPEDIA has every right to know clearly WHO PUBLISHED THOSE DOCUMENTS, to know WHAT KIND OF SOURCE IS THAT EXACTLY. Is it academic? is it a newspaper? is it something else? Your explanation for the last revertion is "Unecesary". If that info was unecesary for you, you dont have to read it, but for the readers IT IS important. Milions of people use Wikipedia they have a right to know what links they are CLICKING. I will put those explanations back in the external links section and I have every right to do so-- Vbb-sk-mk 21:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
my parents were just born so they couldnt, again you are not reading me. but enough about my family. i just mentioned them once in the context of citizenship and you just continued as it is really important. I checked the wikipedia rules you are pointing out, I really don't see how am I "disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point". Maybe Im disrupting you personally instead. What I know is that I have to Be bold in updating pages (
Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages).
Now, why should I not to put those explanations back?
According to the Wikipedia rules for citing sources:
Wikipedia:Citing sources:
Annotation reporting the POV of a particular source will help our users.- thats exactly what i was doing
Also on
Wikipedia:External links: On articles with multiple points of view, a link to prominent sites dedicated to each, with a detailed explanation of each link. The number of links dedicated to one point of view should not overwhelm the number dedicated to any other. One should attempt to add comments to these links informing the reader of their point of view. If one point of view dominates informed opinion, that should be represented first. (For more information, see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view – in particular, Wikipedia's guidelines on undue weight.).
I explained everything according to the RULES (which you obviously try to avoid), those DETAILED EXPLANATIONS MUST BE PLACED BACK NOW.--
Vbb-sk-mk 22:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Its only your personal impression that I want to present those EXTERNAL LINKS as unreliable in some sence.As this is not your personal website - your personal judgement doesn't neceserily have to be a LAW here. THE WIKIPEDIA RULES SAY CLEARLY: Detailed explanation of every external link. Those documents are placed on the official website of the political party in the Republic of Bulgaria VMRO-BND, (their section for Plovdiv), the readers have every right to know what they are clicking! -- Vbb-sk-mk 23:16, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Aldux, In case you dont understand Bulgarian: "Kiro Gligorov is a bulgarian citizennational, honest and trustworthy". He obtained that document on his own will, and attached it to his application. He even obtained two of those, one from the Stip municipality, and one from the Skopie one. (links 1 and 2).
/FunkyFly.talk_ 14:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
FunkyFly and Aldux have debated over the inclusion of the Bulgarian language for Kiro's name in the intro via edit summaries and through me in my and their talks. First off, I must say that I personally hate all those 'grey-area' alternate language debates, which are very frequent in the controversial (and non-so-controversial) articles we all edit. I've made an attempt to describe this debate below. Feel free to add to it if I've ommitted anything, and comment below. Thanks. •NikoSilver• 13:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Include Bulgarian
|
Do not include
|
And I forgot one important point: this is a biography of a living person. Its against the rules to add questionable statements to it -- Dzole 01:42, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
comment - Then where such claims originate from Foreigner? You just want them to remain in the article without providing any source? How come you get unpunished by the wikipedia admins? Those external links lead to the official website of the nationalist political party
VMRO-BND in Bulgaria (its Plovidv office):
http://vmropd.org/pic_news/205-2.jpg
http://vmropd.org/pic_news/205-3.jpg
http://vmropd.org/pic_news/205-4.jpg
In Bulgarian:
© 2006 ВМРО-БНД - гр.Пловдив Всички права запазени.
Stop fooling people and stop your vandalic behaviour. You are not an admin here to shape wikipedia according to your personal political preferences. Neither this article nor any other article is your private property. As long as the edits are properly sourced and explained you have absolutely no right to revert them. Moreover, you add fake edit summaries claiming that what you revert is for example vandalizm even if the contribution in question was valid. Just an example: a while ago you reverted my VMRO-BND additions to this article claiming that "the party doesnt say that" while these "documents" are hosted on its official website? See: 02:46, 7 November 2007 ForeignerFromTheEast (Talk | contribs) (8,971 bytes) (unnecessary, the claim is not by the party) . Then by whom it is? -- Dzole 18:36, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
provide sources and stop this behaviour -- Dzole 19:00, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
what sources? -- Dzole 19:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
by which relevant institution or organization they are published? -- Dzole 19:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
You dont have any proof for such claims -- Dzole 21:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
you know very well that you are wrong, i wonder why no one reacts. those poorly scanned pics are not sources. point some valid scientific institution or organization that published them and that guarantees their veracity -- Dzole 21:42, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
will the external links to those scanned documents remain? -- Dzole 22:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
User: Jingiby returned the questionable Bulgarian links (scanned documents) that were removed yesterday and he or she added references to certain newspaper articles
This newspaper reports about Ljubcho Georgievski's Bulgarian citizenship. I do not dispute that, but how is this relevant to Gligorov? The newspaper claims BTW that also Gligorov declared Bulgarian ethnicity and aquired Bulgarian citizenship but during World War II, providing no further explanations (just one sentence). Its the same as if Macedonian nationalist newspaper would claim that the president of Bulgaria is "ethnic Macedonian".
Quote from "Struma": nonsence: Както е известно, дългогодишният и най-авторитетен президент на Македония Киро Глигоров, който е учил от 1941 до 1944 година в гимназията на Кюстендил, официално там заявявал, че е българин, от стар български род, но по-късно заради личния си политически интерес “забрави” произхода си и стана флагман на създадената изкуствено от Коминтерна в границите на бивша Югославия Република Македония.
translation: as it is known the pres. of Macedonia Kiro Gligorov, who studied at the Kyustendil Gymnasium 1941-1944 officialy declared Bulgarian ethnicity. (end of quote)
Kiro Gligorov couldnt study at GYMNASIUM as he was a grown up man then with a diploma from the Belgrade University of Law.
This newspaper just reports what Struma said. Its not confirming the veracity of the claims represented in Struma. Its just an informational article. Jingiby falsely represents this as "a Macedonian newspaper also claims (confirms) that Gligorov declared Bulgarian ethnicity".
direct quote from Vest: И поранешниот претседател Киро Глигоров од 1041 до 1944 во Ќустендил признал дека е Бугарин, а подоцна заборавил што рекол", пишува "Струма".
translation: And the former Mac. Pres. Kiro Gligorov from 1041(?!) to 1944 in Kyustendil(?!) recognized that he is Bulgarian, but later "forgot" what he had said, as the newspaper Struma reports
Jingiby also added another questionable document scan hosted at the personal nationalist website: http://balkani.hit.bg/Pod42.jpg The website belongs to Anton Zhelev Ivanov, a member of VMRO-BND: Author's biography
Jingiby absuses the fact that many third party wikipedia readers or admins do not understand macedonian and bulgarian to smuggle-in irrelevant or falsely interpreted sources that they can not verify.
Although my english is definetly not perfect, let me also note that he misspels "former" as "vormer", "law" as "low" and often "were" as "ware". Obviously they are not just occassional typos because they are spreaded in several article that Jingby has edited. -- Dzole 16:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Im afraid the other side ignores my explanations on the talk page. As you can see Jingiby has not responded with proper counter-arguments. Moreover he continues a "revertion war" at Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo -- Dzole 16:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Can we use a better picture? Preferably one before the assassination attempt. Politis ( talk) 16:35, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
How this could be truth? Josip Broz Tito was 88 when he died as president of SFRJ. Saigon from europe ( talk) 11:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
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Long-standing sentence was deleted with explanation of lacking sources by a new IP, that is WP:SPA. After 4 sources were added the deletion continues. This is obviously some form of vandalism. Jingiby ( talk) 12:17, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Tosatur ( talk · contribs) 11:51, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
GA Notice |
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Hello, I just wanted to introduce myself and let you know I am glad to be reviewing the article [[Talk:
Kiro Gligorov/GA|
Kiro Gligorov]] in which you've been a major contributor, and has been nominated for
GA-status according to the
criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to [[User_talk:|contact me]] with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Tosatur ( talk) 11:51, 7 March 2024 (UTC) |
· · · |
I made a few edits during the review. My thoughts are below:
I think there are quite a few things in this article which need further explanation. They might be clear to someone who is more familiar with the topic but not a casual reader. This could be a link or an explanation in the paragraph. For example:
"On 29 May 1996, in Helsinki, a solemn statement by Gligorov confirmed the accession of the Republic of Macedonia to the CSCE Final Document."
Why was the statement solemn? What is the CSCE Final Document?
"He was released on the orders of Skopje Mayor Spiro Kitinchev, who guaranteed that he was a trustworthy Bulgarian."
What does "trustworthy Bulgarian" mean here? This should be explained in more detail.
His vice president/prime minister is only mentioned in the infobox. Also, there should probably be a note explaining that Macedonia only had 1 vice-president in 1991.
"Gligorov was of the opinion that Albanians would always have a share in the governing of Macedonia."
I think this needs more clarification. It isn't explained anywhere that Albanians are a significant minority in Macedonia. Also, how did he think this "share" should be implemented? Why did he then dismiss the Albanian demands for greater rights in 2001?
The first paragraph in the Personal life and death section is more at home in the Honours section.
The Politics section could use some subheadings, separating his service in Yugoslavia from his service in SR Macedonia and the Republic of Macedonia.
"In 2017, he was posthumously honoured with the Order "Saint Nicholas" (St. Nikola) by the Municipality of Štip."
Shouldn't this simply say "The Order of Saint Nicholas" (and optionally, the name of the award in Macedonian)
"He was awarded the Mediterranean Peace Prize on 5 January 1998 in Naples."
I found two more accessible sources for this: [3] [4]
I don't think this source looks reliable. It could be removed without invalidating any of the statements made in the article.
The article seems well-illustrated, stable, and neutral, and I haven't found any issues with verifiability.
Tosatur ( talk) 13:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Gligorov, Kiro (1917-) Macedonian politician and president of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (1991-1999). After he finished law school at Belgrade University, Kiro Gligorov worked in private banking until the beginning of World War II. In 1941 he joined the partisan movement and was accepted into the KPJ in 1944. After World War II he became the Yugoslav finance minister (1962-1967), vice president (1967-1969), a member of the Yugoslav presidency (1969-1972), and president of the Yugoslav Parliament (1974-1978). He was elected president of the presidency of Macedonia in 1990, reelected in 1994, and then badly wounded in an attempt on his life on 3 October 1995. He retired in 1999.An archived version of the source is available online.
@ Tosatur asked me to have a quick look at the review (I'm listed as a GA mentor) - some observations: the article's lede is too short and needs to be expanded (see MOS:LEDE), the section on his role in Yugoslavia is too short (yes, he is most widely known for his role in North Macedonia's independence, but this part overwhelms the article at present) and the article appears to lack neutrality.
In many sources, he's repeatedly referred to as a close associate of Tito and a key official in Yugoslavia ("a comrade of Josip Broz (Tito) and high-ranking member of the former socialist elite" (p.311) Constitutional Politics in Central and Eastern Europe: From Post-Socialist Transition to the Reform of Political Systems). Furthermore, the overall tone of the article is uncritical - reading the article he does not appear to be subject to a single criticism. However, from a quick search, for example, I find the following: "The Communist Party of Yugoslavia (CPY) finance minister who most furthered early Yugoslav economic reform (beginning in May 1952) was a Macedonian named Kiro Gligorov... One consequence of his actions, nonetheless, was the rise in corrupt misuse of such loosened financial accountability and the subsequent abuse of funds" ( Paradigm Lost: Yugoslav Self-Management and the Economics of Disaster). Or "Gligorov is still blamed for his attempt to save Yugoslavia (through the so-called Gligovor-Izetbegovic proposal) instead of leading the process of establishing the state’s independence, something that the other republic leaders had been doing for quite some time before the federation’s final demise." (p. 104 Civic and Uncivic Values in Macedonia)
His character is more complex than the article indicates: described as "the fox of the Balkans" (p.53 Macedonia: Warlords and Rebels in the Balkans), "his genius for survival and solutions - which earned him the nickname "the fox""(p.43 The Wreckage Reconsidered: Five Oxymorons from Balkan Deconstruction), "the wily Kiro Gligorov - whose survival through four decades of communism earned him the nickname the fox" (p.212 Yugoslavia: Death of a Nation).
With the lack of focus on the Yugoslav period and the overly positive framing, I'd be somewhat concerned that the article does not meet the criteria for "broad coverage" or neutrality ( criteria 3 and 4 of a good article). No doubt, sources do evaluate Gligorov positively in areas (eg "credited with keeping Macedonia out of the War of Yugoslav Succession" (p.4 Civic and Uncivic Values in Macedonia) - but that's not the full picture and I feel the article needs to address those other areas to achieve GA status. Regards, -- Goldsztajn ( talk) 22:48, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
I have decided to promote this article to GA. I find that it meets all the GA criteria.
The issues with neutrality mentioned earlier were settled by including criticisms of Gligorov. The issues regarding verifiability were solved also. I have found no major issues in the article's prose. The article contains a decent amount of images to satisfy the GA criteria. Tosatur ( talk) 06:13, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.
Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.StephenMacky1 ( talk) 16:31, 9 April 2024 (UTC).