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Proposal to address Kartikeya as Murugan

I'm proposing a new guideline for any editors of this article where Kartikeya should be addressed as Murugan. Lord Murugan also known by thousands of other names is the primary the Saiva Hindu deity of Tamils. For Tamils he is Tamil kadavul Murugan meaning God of Tamil people. He is worshiped by almost all Tamil Hindus all over the world. All his major Temples (Aru Padaiveedu) that has historical significance is located in Tamil Nadu. No other community in this world rever him as much as Tamils do. Tamils build Temples for him, many number of Tamils publish poems and Hymns (Thiruppugal and other poems) in Tamil language for him, and Tamils have a unique way of celebrating him which includes, Kavadi Attam, Pal Kudam(Milk pot), Ther (Temple chariot) Festivals dedicated to him, Pathayathirai (spiritual walks made by Tamil devotees for Lord Muruga) etc. He has mentions in Sangam Literature, and he has extensive list of poems and hymns only written in Tamil language by a Tamil. Now compare this to North India (Kartikeya), their contribution to his worship and literature is negligible.

I do respect the North Indian version of Kartikeya. And I support any information about him that is historically from North India (including West Bengal, Nepal etc) can be addressed as Kartikeya. And anything else apart from that should be addressed as Murugan. This is because of immense contribution of Tamils for their primary deity Lord Muruga. Compared to what we (Tamils) have done for Murugan (Including our unique way or worship, building Murugan Temples all over the world, and poems and hymns about him in Tamil literature) the Non Tamil speaking people's worship and contribution is negligible.

Remember he not a North Indian God and anything about Hinduism does not automatically mean it is part of India or North India. India is a very modern term and only existed since 1947. The are more devotees who ardently worship him as Muruga than Kartikeya. As he is ardently and primarily worshiped by Tamil community it is only fair and respectful to address him primarily as Murugan in this article if not for anything but for the deep devotion tamils show for him. Muruganadimai ( talk) 19:55, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply

  • Strong oppose. Nothing presented here gives any indication of things changing since the requested move, and the username indicates a likely lack of neutrality in this matter. — C.Fred ( talk) 19:57, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
    I have not requested to Move the page (which was an earlier request by Venkat) my request is to address him primary Murugan in the article than Kartikeya. My username does not have to say anything about my Neutrality. And your logic is regarding that is so dumb. Please put a valuable points on why you " Strongly oppose". What are the contributions of North Indian worship for Kartikeya as Murugan? Any new temples built for him under the Name of Kartikeya around the world? How many poems and hymns in praise of Kartikeya or Murugan written by North Indians or Non Tamils?
    Compare all these with what we Tamils have done for Lord Murugan and then put your unbiased opinion.
    I reject your opinions on the previous comment. And you strong opposition does not have a weightful counter argument. Muruganadimai ( talk) 20:14, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
      • Thank you for declaring your conflict of interest with this subject. — C.Fred ( talk) 20:16, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        I have not declared any conflict of interest here. All i said is your assumption about my username is dumb. I have given enough information on why the page should be addressed as Murugan than Kartikeya which primarily relates to immense contribution of Tamils.
        Your reason for rejection is nothing but biased and baseless. You have put no counter arguments to why the page should be primarily addressed as Kartikeya instead of Murugan. All i can see your pure arrogance and no valid and meaningful counter arguments. I don't know how you got qualified as a moderator. Muruganadimai ( talk) 20:25, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        @ Muruganadimai: You used the phrase "we Tamils", which indicates a bias at the least and likely a connection to the subject. If you would prefer, I can go to WP:ANI to get an uninvolved admin to look at your statements, your personal attacks, and your canvassing in this matter. — C.Fred ( talk) 20:32, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        I don't believe in saying "we Tamils" is baised. I'm putting an argument with so many valid points and read my first proposal/comment (Like all the things Tamils do for Lord Murugan and compare that with what North Indians have done for him) and your counter argument has nothing and is baseless. Build a strong counter argument that outweighs mine rather than just simply opposing based on your assumptions. Muruganadimai ( talk) 20:41, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        The Manual of Style is clear that in most cases, the title of the article is also the name that should be used for the subject throughout the article. I'm not seeing why this article warrants an exception. — C.Fred ( talk) 20:44, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        This article warrants an exemptions because the contributions of Tamils to the protagonist of this page, Lord Murugan. In fact, I did not ask for the changing Title of url to Murugan at this time. All i want is it should be addressed primarily as Murugan including the first word in the first paragraph(lead). This is nothing but a respect for contributions of Tamils for Lord Murugan. Tamils are the one who primarily worship him. He is know to the rest of the world through Tamils. From Sangam Literature to Thirupugal composed by Arunagirinathar (a poet in Vijayanagara Era) and perest day literary works for Murugan by tamils are in Tamil Language and Tamils primarily address him as Murugan than any other name. Take all the works (literary works) and forms of worships for Murugan/ Kartikeya the majority of them are my Tamils and in Tamil language for who the tamil people as their beloved Tamil god: Murugan.
        I wish you will be a unbiased moderator. Look through my arguments and see if you can agree. If you don't agree then put why you strongly oppose with a valid counter arguments. Muruganadimai ( talk) 20:56, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        @ Muruganadimal: As Redtigerxyz stated in the last requested move, "Kartikeya is a pan-Indian (subcontinent) deity. The name is used from Nepal in the North to Tamil country in the South. Murugan is an exclusive Tamil name." By that same logic, it makes the most sense to use a consistent name rather than switching name according the context and confusing the reader. — C.Fred ( talk) 21:01, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        Murugan is a world deity than a Pan-India deity. He has temple built all across the world by Tamils where is addressed primarily as Murugan. Redtigerxyz argument has so many weakness. One, he is a World deity and not just a pan-india deity. He has dedicated temples all over the world including Temples in Australia, North America, Europe, South East Asia and Africa and there he is addressed as Murugan. The number of temples dedicated for him is in Tamil Nadu, a tamil majority land where his is addressed as Murugan)
        User, Redtigerxyz premise was based on the significant hindu population of the North compared to South. But Murugan (or what you call as Kartikeya) is mostly worshiped Tamil people (this is evident from the number of literary works, dedicated temples that were built for him and the unique way of worship Tamils offer to murugan including Kavadi Attam, Pal Kudam (Milk in a pot), Pathayatra (spritiual walk) etc.) The North Indian people does not worship him (by means of building new temples dedicated to him, writing literary works such as poem and hymns for him etc) enough to consider or warrant him as pan- india and be stated here in the name they recognize. Yes, he a deity in North India but he is not primary and his popularity is more among Tamil people than North Indians.
        Thus this page should be primarily addressed as Murugan. Please not i did not ask to remove Kartikeya from entire page. I propose Murugan to be the lead name of the Article and common name to be used in the Article in place of the name Kartikeya.
        Consistency can still be maintained if the name is switched. This page does deserve an exemption and should be addressed as Murugan. Muruganadimai ( talk) 21:28, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        And also, In Nepal (according to what you consider pan-india) he is worshiped as Kumar and not Kartikeya. So that argument fails right there. Muruganadimai ( talk) 21:35, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        The legend says that Lord Murugan has thousands of names including Kartikeya, Saravana, Shanmuga, Kumara, kandha etc. Out of this the most widely used by his primary followers which is significantly than the North is Murugan. So the lead name of this page should be Murugan and and the murgan should be the common (instead of Kartikeya) throughout article from here on.
        Construct a valid counter argument for all the good points i have given. If not please agree to support the motion to change the name and provide an exception for the article. Muruganadimai ( talk) 21:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        The legend says that Lord Murugan has thousands of names including Kartikeya, Saravana, Shanmuga, Kumara, kandha etc. Out of this the most widely used by his primary followers which is significantly than the North is Murugan. So the lead name of this page should be Murugan and and the murgan should be the common (instead of Kartikeya) throughout article from here on.
        Construct a valid counter argument for all the good points i have given. If not please agree to support the motion to change the name and provide an exception for the article. Muruganadimai ( talk) 21:44, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
  • That is not how things work. Also, there is a world outside Tamilnadu. The common name is Kartikeya, and he should be referred as such. —usernamekiran (talk) 22:10, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
    Yes, there is a world outside Tamil nadu and that's why so many temples in Europe, North America, South East Asia, Australia, Africa where he is refreeded as Murugan than Kartikeya. Even in Nepal he referred as Kumar and not Kartikeya. Except Kanda Puranam, what North Indian literary works address him as Kartikeya? What Non-Tamil poems and hymns were written by non tamils that call him Kartikeya? How many temples of worship that is dedicated to this deity was built by Non Tamils under the name of Kartikeya? What form of unique worship you have to call it or warrant it as the "common name" for this deity in this world? You gotta agree with me that Tamils contribution to Lord Muruga is more that what North Indians have done for same god they call as Kartikeya. He is not even a primary deity there. His popularity is clearly with Tamils and vast majority of his followers are Tamils and they primarily address him as Muruga. So yes the name Muruga is common than Kartikeya. And your the common name Kartikeya argument failed.
    Give me legends, poems, hymns that were written by those in the North that could outweigh the number of poems and hymns that was Tamils have written for Murugan. Where is Murugan six main Adobe? So definitely Tamil Nadu is his primary world, right? The history of Lord Murugan is with Tamil people you cannot erase that history. Those who call him Kartikeya in the North India would have more associations with him if he was their primary deity. He certainly a primary deity and most of his followers are Tamils who address him and commonly called as Murugan. So is my argument to address him as Murugan than Kartikeya in this wikipedia article about the same deity. Muruganadimai ( talk) 22:48, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        • It Abode not adobe (typo) If you didn't know all his six main Abodes are in Tamil Nadu. Muruganadimai ( talk) 23:01, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
    It is not about who did what, or who has contributed more. It is about the most used name. Kindly read WP:COMMONNAME. —usernamekiran (talk) 23:27, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
    What is the basis of your assumption that Kartikeya is the common name for this deity? You don't have a valid argument backed with evidence to state Kartikeya is the common name. How do you come to conclusion that Kartikeya is the common name?
    Conversely, my argument backs that Muruga is the most common name throughout the world for this deity and this premise is backed by all the works that is done by his majority of the followers. When majority of his main followers (who are only Tamil Hindus) address him as Murugan then how can Kartikeya be the common name? Anything about Hinduism does not automatically become India's.
    When you look for the basis for a common name you should look for evidence such as literary works (poems, hymns, literature like Sangam) places of worship among other things. My argument that Murugan is the common name is backed by so many evidence. But yours and those who oppose this motion have no valid arguments backed by evidence. Muruganadimai ( talk) 23:42, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
I totally support this argument made by Venkat TL ( talk) on 5 October 2021 (UTC)
"Where is your reason that Kartikeya is more common. I have already given good reasons and you failed to rebut them, threw a couple of strawman's and then claimed not good enough. You can use any metric, You will always find Murugan to be the more popular word for this deity. Venkat TL ( talk) 06:13, 5 October 2021 (UTC)" reply
Those who oppose this motion does not have a valid argument backed by strong evidence. Inserting Kartikeya in every sentence of this article is nothing but a propaganda by those who want to keep everything about Hinduism to the North India and Hindi speaking population. The concept of India came into existence only after 1947 and historically the deity Lord Murugan is associated with the then Tamilakam (lands ruled by Tamil Kings like Chola, Pandya etc). The legend about Muruga goes back to Sangam Era literature which is one of the oldest in this world. Except Kanda Puranam North Indians doesn't have sufficient literature that backs the worship of Kartikeya as much as Tamils do it Lord Murugan.
Any devotee of Lord Murugan loves all of those thousands of name this deity has got. No devotee opposite existence of his name as Kartikeya and I do not oppose as well. But a page like wikipedia needs the correct version of the most common way how this deity is called all over the world. And how do you conclude the most comment is debate here.
To arrive at a conclusion:
• you look at the evidence of all the historic literatures (Sangam Literatures, Thirupugal) how the sages, gurus and poets such as Agastya, Arunagirinathar, Arumuka Navalar to name a few) referred this god (which is as Murugan) and you look at the temples and its scriptures.
• You look at his major followers who worship him. How could you find his major followers? You looks at the new temples that is dedicated to him gets build all over the world. (which are tamils)
• You look at the major festivals of this deity like Skanda Shasti, Thaipusam etc. Who are the devotees who celebrate this festival? (Mostly tamil hindu people) What is special about this festivals?
Where is the main temples dedicated located for this deity located? It's predonmently in Tamil Nadu. In fact, Tamil Nadu has more temples dedicated to Lord Murugan as the primary deity than the entire rest of India combined. Temples all over the world refer to him as Murugan. How come the so called pan-India deity have more temples than the entire rest of india combined?
To conclude:
It is not true that "Kartikeya is common name" and those you blindly support it does not have enough evidence that outweigh the strong arguments with valid and significant evidence that is presented by those who support that Murugan is the common name. This entire page should be renamed as Murugan as it violates the WP:COMMONNAME policy. At least for now the lead names and the common name of this article should be addressed as Murugan. Muruganadimai ( talk) 00:58, 14 August 2022 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose
    • Regarding argument that Kartikeya - Murugan is most popular and worshipped in Tamil Nadu so the exclusively Tamil name should be used; then should Ganesha be renamed Ganapati because he is the most popular god in Maharashatra than rest of world?? Like Ganesha, Kartikeya is a pan-Hindu deity. Kartikeya-Skanda was a significant deity in the North till around the 5th century BCE to the 6th century, but his worship declined as the principal deity. However, he is still worshipped as a secondary deity in Shiva/Devi/Ganesha temples.
    • "Compared to what we (Tamils) have done for Murugan (Including our unique way or worship, building Murugan Temples all over the world, and poems and hymns about him in Tamil literature) the Non Tamil speaking people's worship and contribution is negligible." This seems as WP:POV pushing. Odisha worships him in pandals on Kartik puja (Kartik poornima), so does Bengal. On Kartik poornima, Marathi women can worship him, which is generally prohibited considering the belief that he is regarded as a bachelor. Kartikeya is also worshipped in Durga Puja.
    • Review of Indian subcontinent/Hindu-related languages; even though Kartikeya is the most popular name in the North, it is used as an epithet in the South. Murugan from Tamil nadu is not used outside the Tamil belt.
      • Assamese, Balinese, Bhojpuri, Bengali, Gujrati, Hindi, Marathi, Maithili, Nepali, Newari, Odia, Sanskrit wikipedia calls Kartikeya/Kartik.
      • Malayalam, Kannada wikipedia calls him Subrahmaniyan.
      • Telugu - Shanmukha
      • Tamil wikipedia calls him Murugan.
  • The users demanding a change in name are welcome to use WP:RM and WP:RFC for the same, rather than indulging WP:Personal attacks.-- Redtigerxyz Talk 10:40, 15 August 2022 (UTC) reply
Not only should the article refer to this god as Murugan, the article also needs to be renamed. In the previous threads and the archived threads, I had made lot of efforts in discussing and trying to explain the mistake and the problem. Some of the existing editors think Murugan is not the popular name they are basing this flawed opinion on cherry picked examples. @ Muruganadimai may be getting passionate in his comments but his points are absolutely correct. The talk page archive is full of editors asking for a change but some experienced editors are stonewalling all their voices to keep the article at the wrong page name. It is very unfortunate and wrong for Wikipedia. Venkat TL ( talk) 15:10, 15 August 2022 (UTC) reply

While I am sympathetic to the page being renamed Murugan, I don't see it happening. Wikipedia has this obsolete rule about favouring the original name of the page during conflicts of interest, and the page was, unfortunately, originally titled Kartikeya. A Tamilian should have created this page, but the fact that they didn't means these are the consequences. It is also a valid point that post-assimilation, Murugan has achieved a pan-Hindu identity, and is unlikely to be predominantly be addressed by his true name outside Tamil Nadu. You might also see that Jesus Christ is not referred to by his native Aramaic name on his English Wikipedia title. Chronikhiles ( talk) 04:38, 21 September 2022 (UTC) reply

What is the process to restart the discussion and stop this redirect. very unfortunate that "Murugan" doesn't deserve a wiki page Muthu14 ( talk) 13:48, 1 October 2022 (UTC) reply
Muthu14 create a section named Murugan, Move all the content and reference that are about Murugan into that section. build it up. Similarly create a section of Karthikey eventually it can be split using WP:SPINOFF rule. Venkat TL ( talk) 13:52, 1 October 2022 (UTC) reply
This spinoff was followed to create the Murugan section however. Problem with creating Murugan as a sub-section is that Kerala, Karnataka calls Subrahmanya are claimed as "Murugan" temples, not Kartikeya. Is this WP:POV-pushing?? Kataragama has elements of Skanda, Murugan though a Buddhist temple. References talking of a synthetic Kartikeya-Murugan-Skanda is conviniently come in Murugan section. Revert the POV section for better flow in earlier version of the article. Redtigerxyz Talk 11:21, 4 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Change the article heading to Murugan

Karthikeya was a sanskrit word which Tamils have not spoken during sangam times and even now. Murugan should be the heading of the article. Aravindh ew ( talk) 15:25, 7 July 2023 (UTC) reply

As another guy said, that's like referring to Jesus Christ through his original Aramaic name. Witchilich ( talk) 14:08, 2 January 2024 (UTC) reply
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Kartikeya&oldid=1216291399"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Proposal to address Kartikeya as Murugan

I'm proposing a new guideline for any editors of this article where Kartikeya should be addressed as Murugan. Lord Murugan also known by thousands of other names is the primary the Saiva Hindu deity of Tamils. For Tamils he is Tamil kadavul Murugan meaning God of Tamil people. He is worshiped by almost all Tamil Hindus all over the world. All his major Temples (Aru Padaiveedu) that has historical significance is located in Tamil Nadu. No other community in this world rever him as much as Tamils do. Tamils build Temples for him, many number of Tamils publish poems and Hymns (Thiruppugal and other poems) in Tamil language for him, and Tamils have a unique way of celebrating him which includes, Kavadi Attam, Pal Kudam(Milk pot), Ther (Temple chariot) Festivals dedicated to him, Pathayathirai (spiritual walks made by Tamil devotees for Lord Muruga) etc. He has mentions in Sangam Literature, and he has extensive list of poems and hymns only written in Tamil language by a Tamil. Now compare this to North India (Kartikeya), their contribution to his worship and literature is negligible.

I do respect the North Indian version of Kartikeya. And I support any information about him that is historically from North India (including West Bengal, Nepal etc) can be addressed as Kartikeya. And anything else apart from that should be addressed as Murugan. This is because of immense contribution of Tamils for their primary deity Lord Muruga. Compared to what we (Tamils) have done for Murugan (Including our unique way or worship, building Murugan Temples all over the world, and poems and hymns about him in Tamil literature) the Non Tamil speaking people's worship and contribution is negligible.

Remember he not a North Indian God and anything about Hinduism does not automatically mean it is part of India or North India. India is a very modern term and only existed since 1947. The are more devotees who ardently worship him as Muruga than Kartikeya. As he is ardently and primarily worshiped by Tamil community it is only fair and respectful to address him primarily as Murugan in this article if not for anything but for the deep devotion tamils show for him. Muruganadimai ( talk) 19:55, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply

  • Strong oppose. Nothing presented here gives any indication of things changing since the requested move, and the username indicates a likely lack of neutrality in this matter. — C.Fred ( talk) 19:57, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
    I have not requested to Move the page (which was an earlier request by Venkat) my request is to address him primary Murugan in the article than Kartikeya. My username does not have to say anything about my Neutrality. And your logic is regarding that is so dumb. Please put a valuable points on why you " Strongly oppose". What are the contributions of North Indian worship for Kartikeya as Murugan? Any new temples built for him under the Name of Kartikeya around the world? How many poems and hymns in praise of Kartikeya or Murugan written by North Indians or Non Tamils?
    Compare all these with what we Tamils have done for Lord Murugan and then put your unbiased opinion.
    I reject your opinions on the previous comment. And you strong opposition does not have a weightful counter argument. Muruganadimai ( talk) 20:14, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
      • Thank you for declaring your conflict of interest with this subject. — C.Fred ( talk) 20:16, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        I have not declared any conflict of interest here. All i said is your assumption about my username is dumb. I have given enough information on why the page should be addressed as Murugan than Kartikeya which primarily relates to immense contribution of Tamils.
        Your reason for rejection is nothing but biased and baseless. You have put no counter arguments to why the page should be primarily addressed as Kartikeya instead of Murugan. All i can see your pure arrogance and no valid and meaningful counter arguments. I don't know how you got qualified as a moderator. Muruganadimai ( talk) 20:25, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        @ Muruganadimai: You used the phrase "we Tamils", which indicates a bias at the least and likely a connection to the subject. If you would prefer, I can go to WP:ANI to get an uninvolved admin to look at your statements, your personal attacks, and your canvassing in this matter. — C.Fred ( talk) 20:32, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        I don't believe in saying "we Tamils" is baised. I'm putting an argument with so many valid points and read my first proposal/comment (Like all the things Tamils do for Lord Murugan and compare that with what North Indians have done for him) and your counter argument has nothing and is baseless. Build a strong counter argument that outweighs mine rather than just simply opposing based on your assumptions. Muruganadimai ( talk) 20:41, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        The Manual of Style is clear that in most cases, the title of the article is also the name that should be used for the subject throughout the article. I'm not seeing why this article warrants an exception. — C.Fred ( talk) 20:44, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        This article warrants an exemptions because the contributions of Tamils to the protagonist of this page, Lord Murugan. In fact, I did not ask for the changing Title of url to Murugan at this time. All i want is it should be addressed primarily as Murugan including the first word in the first paragraph(lead). This is nothing but a respect for contributions of Tamils for Lord Murugan. Tamils are the one who primarily worship him. He is know to the rest of the world through Tamils. From Sangam Literature to Thirupugal composed by Arunagirinathar (a poet in Vijayanagara Era) and perest day literary works for Murugan by tamils are in Tamil Language and Tamils primarily address him as Murugan than any other name. Take all the works (literary works) and forms of worships for Murugan/ Kartikeya the majority of them are my Tamils and in Tamil language for who the tamil people as their beloved Tamil god: Murugan.
        I wish you will be a unbiased moderator. Look through my arguments and see if you can agree. If you don't agree then put why you strongly oppose with a valid counter arguments. Muruganadimai ( talk) 20:56, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        @ Muruganadimal: As Redtigerxyz stated in the last requested move, "Kartikeya is a pan-Indian (subcontinent) deity. The name is used from Nepal in the North to Tamil country in the South. Murugan is an exclusive Tamil name." By that same logic, it makes the most sense to use a consistent name rather than switching name according the context and confusing the reader. — C.Fred ( talk) 21:01, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        Murugan is a world deity than a Pan-India deity. He has temple built all across the world by Tamils where is addressed primarily as Murugan. Redtigerxyz argument has so many weakness. One, he is a World deity and not just a pan-india deity. He has dedicated temples all over the world including Temples in Australia, North America, Europe, South East Asia and Africa and there he is addressed as Murugan. The number of temples dedicated for him is in Tamil Nadu, a tamil majority land where his is addressed as Murugan)
        User, Redtigerxyz premise was based on the significant hindu population of the North compared to South. But Murugan (or what you call as Kartikeya) is mostly worshiped Tamil people (this is evident from the number of literary works, dedicated temples that were built for him and the unique way of worship Tamils offer to murugan including Kavadi Attam, Pal Kudam (Milk in a pot), Pathayatra (spritiual walk) etc.) The North Indian people does not worship him (by means of building new temples dedicated to him, writing literary works such as poem and hymns for him etc) enough to consider or warrant him as pan- india and be stated here in the name they recognize. Yes, he a deity in North India but he is not primary and his popularity is more among Tamil people than North Indians.
        Thus this page should be primarily addressed as Murugan. Please not i did not ask to remove Kartikeya from entire page. I propose Murugan to be the lead name of the Article and common name to be used in the Article in place of the name Kartikeya.
        Consistency can still be maintained if the name is switched. This page does deserve an exemption and should be addressed as Murugan. Muruganadimai ( talk) 21:28, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        And also, In Nepal (according to what you consider pan-india) he is worshiped as Kumar and not Kartikeya. So that argument fails right there. Muruganadimai ( talk) 21:35, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        The legend says that Lord Murugan has thousands of names including Kartikeya, Saravana, Shanmuga, Kumara, kandha etc. Out of this the most widely used by his primary followers which is significantly than the North is Murugan. So the lead name of this page should be Murugan and and the murgan should be the common (instead of Kartikeya) throughout article from here on.
        Construct a valid counter argument for all the good points i have given. If not please agree to support the motion to change the name and provide an exception for the article. Muruganadimai ( talk) 21:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        The legend says that Lord Murugan has thousands of names including Kartikeya, Saravana, Shanmuga, Kumara, kandha etc. Out of this the most widely used by his primary followers which is significantly than the North is Murugan. So the lead name of this page should be Murugan and and the murgan should be the common (instead of Kartikeya) throughout article from here on.
        Construct a valid counter argument for all the good points i have given. If not please agree to support the motion to change the name and provide an exception for the article. Muruganadimai ( talk) 21:44, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
  • That is not how things work. Also, there is a world outside Tamilnadu. The common name is Kartikeya, and he should be referred as such. —usernamekiran (talk) 22:10, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
    Yes, there is a world outside Tamil nadu and that's why so many temples in Europe, North America, South East Asia, Australia, Africa where he is refreeded as Murugan than Kartikeya. Even in Nepal he referred as Kumar and not Kartikeya. Except Kanda Puranam, what North Indian literary works address him as Kartikeya? What Non-Tamil poems and hymns were written by non tamils that call him Kartikeya? How many temples of worship that is dedicated to this deity was built by Non Tamils under the name of Kartikeya? What form of unique worship you have to call it or warrant it as the "common name" for this deity in this world? You gotta agree with me that Tamils contribution to Lord Muruga is more that what North Indians have done for same god they call as Kartikeya. He is not even a primary deity there. His popularity is clearly with Tamils and vast majority of his followers are Tamils and they primarily address him as Muruga. So yes the name Muruga is common than Kartikeya. And your the common name Kartikeya argument failed.
    Give me legends, poems, hymns that were written by those in the North that could outweigh the number of poems and hymns that was Tamils have written for Murugan. Where is Murugan six main Adobe? So definitely Tamil Nadu is his primary world, right? The history of Lord Murugan is with Tamil people you cannot erase that history. Those who call him Kartikeya in the North India would have more associations with him if he was their primary deity. He certainly a primary deity and most of his followers are Tamils who address him and commonly called as Murugan. So is my argument to address him as Murugan than Kartikeya in this wikipedia article about the same deity. Muruganadimai ( talk) 22:48, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
        • It Abode not adobe (typo) If you didn't know all his six main Abodes are in Tamil Nadu. Muruganadimai ( talk) 23:01, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
    It is not about who did what, or who has contributed more. It is about the most used name. Kindly read WP:COMMONNAME. —usernamekiran (talk) 23:27, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
    What is the basis of your assumption that Kartikeya is the common name for this deity? You don't have a valid argument backed with evidence to state Kartikeya is the common name. How do you come to conclusion that Kartikeya is the common name?
    Conversely, my argument backs that Muruga is the most common name throughout the world for this deity and this premise is backed by all the works that is done by his majority of the followers. When majority of his main followers (who are only Tamil Hindus) address him as Murugan then how can Kartikeya be the common name? Anything about Hinduism does not automatically become India's.
    When you look for the basis for a common name you should look for evidence such as literary works (poems, hymns, literature like Sangam) places of worship among other things. My argument that Murugan is the common name is backed by so many evidence. But yours and those who oppose this motion have no valid arguments backed by evidence. Muruganadimai ( talk) 23:42, 13 August 2022 (UTC) reply
I totally support this argument made by Venkat TL ( talk) on 5 October 2021 (UTC)
"Where is your reason that Kartikeya is more common. I have already given good reasons and you failed to rebut them, threw a couple of strawman's and then claimed not good enough. You can use any metric, You will always find Murugan to be the more popular word for this deity. Venkat TL ( talk) 06:13, 5 October 2021 (UTC)" reply
Those who oppose this motion does not have a valid argument backed by strong evidence. Inserting Kartikeya in every sentence of this article is nothing but a propaganda by those who want to keep everything about Hinduism to the North India and Hindi speaking population. The concept of India came into existence only after 1947 and historically the deity Lord Murugan is associated with the then Tamilakam (lands ruled by Tamil Kings like Chola, Pandya etc). The legend about Muruga goes back to Sangam Era literature which is one of the oldest in this world. Except Kanda Puranam North Indians doesn't have sufficient literature that backs the worship of Kartikeya as much as Tamils do it Lord Murugan.
Any devotee of Lord Murugan loves all of those thousands of name this deity has got. No devotee opposite existence of his name as Kartikeya and I do not oppose as well. But a page like wikipedia needs the correct version of the most common way how this deity is called all over the world. And how do you conclude the most comment is debate here.
To arrive at a conclusion:
• you look at the evidence of all the historic literatures (Sangam Literatures, Thirupugal) how the sages, gurus and poets such as Agastya, Arunagirinathar, Arumuka Navalar to name a few) referred this god (which is as Murugan) and you look at the temples and its scriptures.
• You look at his major followers who worship him. How could you find his major followers? You looks at the new temples that is dedicated to him gets build all over the world. (which are tamils)
• You look at the major festivals of this deity like Skanda Shasti, Thaipusam etc. Who are the devotees who celebrate this festival? (Mostly tamil hindu people) What is special about this festivals?
Where is the main temples dedicated located for this deity located? It's predonmently in Tamil Nadu. In fact, Tamil Nadu has more temples dedicated to Lord Murugan as the primary deity than the entire rest of India combined. Temples all over the world refer to him as Murugan. How come the so called pan-India deity have more temples than the entire rest of india combined?
To conclude:
It is not true that "Kartikeya is common name" and those you blindly support it does not have enough evidence that outweigh the strong arguments with valid and significant evidence that is presented by those who support that Murugan is the common name. This entire page should be renamed as Murugan as it violates the WP:COMMONNAME policy. At least for now the lead names and the common name of this article should be addressed as Murugan. Muruganadimai ( talk) 00:58, 14 August 2022 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose
    • Regarding argument that Kartikeya - Murugan is most popular and worshipped in Tamil Nadu so the exclusively Tamil name should be used; then should Ganesha be renamed Ganapati because he is the most popular god in Maharashatra than rest of world?? Like Ganesha, Kartikeya is a pan-Hindu deity. Kartikeya-Skanda was a significant deity in the North till around the 5th century BCE to the 6th century, but his worship declined as the principal deity. However, he is still worshipped as a secondary deity in Shiva/Devi/Ganesha temples.
    • "Compared to what we (Tamils) have done for Murugan (Including our unique way or worship, building Murugan Temples all over the world, and poems and hymns about him in Tamil literature) the Non Tamil speaking people's worship and contribution is negligible." This seems as WP:POV pushing. Odisha worships him in pandals on Kartik puja (Kartik poornima), so does Bengal. On Kartik poornima, Marathi women can worship him, which is generally prohibited considering the belief that he is regarded as a bachelor. Kartikeya is also worshipped in Durga Puja.
    • Review of Indian subcontinent/Hindu-related languages; even though Kartikeya is the most popular name in the North, it is used as an epithet in the South. Murugan from Tamil nadu is not used outside the Tamil belt.
      • Assamese, Balinese, Bhojpuri, Bengali, Gujrati, Hindi, Marathi, Maithili, Nepali, Newari, Odia, Sanskrit wikipedia calls Kartikeya/Kartik.
      • Malayalam, Kannada wikipedia calls him Subrahmaniyan.
      • Telugu - Shanmukha
      • Tamil wikipedia calls him Murugan.
  • The users demanding a change in name are welcome to use WP:RM and WP:RFC for the same, rather than indulging WP:Personal attacks.-- Redtigerxyz Talk 10:40, 15 August 2022 (UTC) reply
Not only should the article refer to this god as Murugan, the article also needs to be renamed. In the previous threads and the archived threads, I had made lot of efforts in discussing and trying to explain the mistake and the problem. Some of the existing editors think Murugan is not the popular name they are basing this flawed opinion on cherry picked examples. @ Muruganadimai may be getting passionate in his comments but his points are absolutely correct. The talk page archive is full of editors asking for a change but some experienced editors are stonewalling all their voices to keep the article at the wrong page name. It is very unfortunate and wrong for Wikipedia. Venkat TL ( talk) 15:10, 15 August 2022 (UTC) reply

While I am sympathetic to the page being renamed Murugan, I don't see it happening. Wikipedia has this obsolete rule about favouring the original name of the page during conflicts of interest, and the page was, unfortunately, originally titled Kartikeya. A Tamilian should have created this page, but the fact that they didn't means these are the consequences. It is also a valid point that post-assimilation, Murugan has achieved a pan-Hindu identity, and is unlikely to be predominantly be addressed by his true name outside Tamil Nadu. You might also see that Jesus Christ is not referred to by his native Aramaic name on his English Wikipedia title. Chronikhiles ( talk) 04:38, 21 September 2022 (UTC) reply

What is the process to restart the discussion and stop this redirect. very unfortunate that "Murugan" doesn't deserve a wiki page Muthu14 ( talk) 13:48, 1 October 2022 (UTC) reply
Muthu14 create a section named Murugan, Move all the content and reference that are about Murugan into that section. build it up. Similarly create a section of Karthikey eventually it can be split using WP:SPINOFF rule. Venkat TL ( talk) 13:52, 1 October 2022 (UTC) reply
This spinoff was followed to create the Murugan section however. Problem with creating Murugan as a sub-section is that Kerala, Karnataka calls Subrahmanya are claimed as "Murugan" temples, not Kartikeya. Is this WP:POV-pushing?? Kataragama has elements of Skanda, Murugan though a Buddhist temple. References talking of a synthetic Kartikeya-Murugan-Skanda is conviniently come in Murugan section. Revert the POV section for better flow in earlier version of the article. Redtigerxyz Talk 11:21, 4 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Change the article heading to Murugan

Karthikeya was a sanskrit word which Tamils have not spoken during sangam times and even now. Murugan should be the heading of the article. Aravindh ew ( talk) 15:25, 7 July 2023 (UTC) reply

As another guy said, that's like referring to Jesus Christ through his original Aramaic name. Witchilich ( talk) 14:08, 2 January 2024 (UTC) reply
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Kartikeya&oldid=1216291399"

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