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If you say Stalin is a dictator, then why not to say George W. Bush is war criminal?--[[User:get some solid historical sources that disagree with the term "dictator" to cite. Heimstern Läufer 15:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
There was no law establishing absolutist rule for Stalin. He was just one of dozens of leaders of the Communist Party in the Politbureau. Such flagrant POV slander are not permitted in an encyclopedia:
First let it be noted that, unlike Mussolini, Hitler and other modern dictators, Stalin is not invested by law with any authority over his fellow-citizens, and not even over the members of the Party to which he belongs. He has not even the extensive power which the Congress of the United States has temporarily conferred upon President Roosevelt, or that which the American Constitution entrusts for four years to every successive president. So far as grade or dignity is concerned, Stalin is in no sense the highest official in the USSR, or even in the Communist Party. He is not, and has never been, President of the Presidium of the Central Executive Committee of the All-Union Congress of Soviets-a place long held by Sverdlov and now by Kalinin, who is commonly treated as the President of the USSR.
http://www.mltranslations.org/Russia/webb1.htm
You are all missing the point! Whether or not he was a dictator is not what really matters here! What matters is the fact that because he was never formally given the "title" of dictator giving him such a title is giving a trait he was never actually given, which is, whether you like it or not, providing POV information. Stalin may have been a dictator, and it may be true that 99.9% of the world's population including the majority of former Soviet Citizens think and believe he might be a dictator...but providing him with that title is being POV...it is not an absolute truth! (Like Felipe Calderon being the president of Mexico or Angela Merkel being Chancellor of Germany) it is a trait. It is like saying that George W. Bush is am imperialist or a conqueror a war criminal, a murderer or an aggressor...the facts are that he is an conqueror and an imperialist, but because he has not been awarded such a title formally, it would be POV to write "George W. Bush, president of the US and conqueror or invader of Iraq", even though it might be true because I am giving him a trait based on judgment, not on accuracy or solid facts...what is a dictator? Where do we define dictator? Where does a dictator begin or end? What are the limits? There is nothing in the world, no paper or anything that specifies this, so there is not way we can award him such a title in an accurate encyclopedia, even though in the end he might very well be a dictator...understand? Understand?! We are not debating his evilness or how democratic he was! We are debating the fact that the man has been called something he was never formally turned into and solely based on judgment. It is like saying (in another context) that a pornographic actress is a pervert of that David Lynch might be deranged because of his films or that Nicholas Cage is a bad actor or that James Joyce is a great writer...they are not traits that have been formally given (even though they might be true) to these people and should therefore not be placed on their page, in the initial part. Maybe in the later part of the article there could be a section talking about how good some people consider this writer (or how Stalin is considered by many to be a dictator)...Please, this is the last time I am going to try to convince you of this...If you don't understand...you are mentally retarded and I will be forced to create an editing war and change Dictator every chance I get in this encyclopedia...I am only sticking to wikipedian policies and doing what I should be doing...you are the ones that are wrong! Kiske 06:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
The bottom is that nobody on the anti-dictator side here has presented ANY quotes from reliable historians that argue against calling Stalin a dictator. All the prominent historians I've read call him such (and I'd be willing to present the quotes), so that's the consensus view. If you want to dethrone the consensus view, policy demands that you actually back up your changes with evidence. - Merzbow 19:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I could care less what the right wing bias might say about stalin, I can present millions of quotes from before the fall of the eastern block that do not refer to stalin as a dictator, I can find quotes on anything!, there are quotes on everything, but that doesn't mean that they are right! And to C33, my opinion is not irrelevant, if you fascist bias simply blinds your thoughts on a clear and simple issue, that is your problem... It doesn't matter if every person in the world calls Stalin a dictator, because it implies a certain qualification to his reign we cannot, if we choose to follow the NPOV say he was a dictator. The articles on Saddam Hussein and Fidel Castro do not say they are dictators, so we shouldn't either. This is my last word on the matter, this has previously been discussed and we reached an agreement... Stalin being labeled as a dictator in this article will not stand as long as I live!... If you fail to understand the points, that is your problem, but what I explained above and you refused to accept is very clear, very simple... you are all simply too biased to understand it! Kiske 19:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Staberinde.... never insult me again first of all. I do apologize, you are right, there was no clear agreement... but that doesn't mean that the article should remain as labeling the man as a dictator. I am not going to compromise if the counter argument, the argument that I stand for is also exposed!... calling stalin a dictator is not objective, if you want me to compromise, we should then write something like this: "Stalin was the de facto leader and in right wing, capitalist view, dictator of the USSR. It should also be noted that he is not globally considered to be a dictator and the notion of him being a dictator in the Soviet Union only emerged when Mikhail Gorbachev came to power; but there are still many people that do not consider him a dictator." If something like this is not done, then the article will remain biased, and I will not have that... why don't you fight for the Saddam Hussein article to say he was also a dictator? There is nothing wrong with not saying that he was a dictator, this is not after all, a formal trait, but something based on western perspectives and nothing more... Kiske 21:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree Heimstern, I like your way of thinking, and I do apologize, but I am frustrated by the fact that no one understands my points, they are simply to biased to even consider Stalin not being a dictator, or at least not mentioning it. And I am willing to work on a compromise for this article, something that will satisfy us all...and there are many different views on stalin, the two major ones are yours and mine... 1.- He was a dictator. 2.- He wasn't... but again, whether he was a dictator or not doesn't really matter, what matters is that calling him a dictator is biased because it is not something that is universally aknowledged or a trait that is objective... it is something based on judgement, just as if I were to say on Miguel de Cervantes Article that the Quixote is an excellent book... it is an excellent book, but saying that is giving a trait it doesn't really have formally. Understand? Kiske 21:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Merzbow, what are you saying? you think you are doing me a favor? It is not up to you what happens to the article... who made you judge? Good faith?! What are you talking about? Since when does good faith have anything to do with this article... nothing! I do have many sources that don't exactley negate him being a dictator but simply portray him as leader of the soviet union. And why do you need them by a professor? Why would that be more reliable than one by a historian who is not a professor? I don't have any in English, I only have them in German, Russian and Spanish, which come from Cuba, the GDR and the USSR, and they are all from before 1980. Would a translation be sufficient? Kiske 22:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Stalin is widely portrayed in popular accounts in the west as a dictator( Britannica, MSN Encarta, Columbia Encyclopedia, PBS, BBC, CNN). if he is similarly dealt with by professional historians, then it shld be easy to substantiate with a similar list.
assuming that this is done, it is upto those who think that he shld not be referred to as a dictator to compile similar lists to demonstrate that that view is held by significant minority (or more). if this can't be done, then WP can retain the "dictator" tag. if it can be done, then the dictator tag is qualified as controversial.
WP is not the place for original research, and much of the discussion (eg. disc. regarding what are necessary and sufficient conditions for dictatorship, comparisons to other dictators), i think, is attempting to synthesize published arguments to advance the position that he is or is not a D., such original determinations, of course, cannot be used in writing WP articles. Doldrums 11:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Mentioning the BBC is laughable considering how ridiculous of a propaganda outlet it is for western imperialism. It'd be no different than citing Radio Moscow in a biography about Churchill or Truman. Various entries in Russia's prominent Hronos encyclopedia lack the term "dictator":
From the end of the 1930s he became the Russian statesman and military leader of the Russian people during Great Domestic war.
Stalin (1878-1953), politician, Hero of Socialist Work (1939), Hero of Soviet Union (1945), Marshal of Soviet Union (1943), Generalissimo of Soviet Union (1945).
http://www.hrono.ru/biograf/stalin.html
The likes of Merzbow and Ultramarine are right-wing propagandists who have an agenda to push. This is exposed by their use of the laughably partisan "Black Book of Communism". The various sources used by Hronos proves that Stalin was not a dictator. http://www.hrono.ru/biograf/stalin.html
Scholarly sources by professional historians that do not call Stalin a dictator include works by E.H Carr, R.W Davies, and Stephen Wheatcroft.
Additionally, on Proquest Database, there are 4876 results for "Stalin Soviet Leader". For "Stalin Soviet Dictator" there are only 3260 results by comparison. The characterization of Stalin as a dictator is false for the reason that no law gave him supreme authority and the fact that he was prime minister from 1941-53.
What the fuck are you talking about? This is a page for disputes in regard to facts and perspective. You blatantly contradict yourself with your reiteration of Wikipedia's policies even though you completely violate them with your vandalism at the "Holodomor" page and your violation of NPOV policy with the vandalism of smearing Stalin as a dictator. The propaganda outlets your ilk incessantly cites contains the following: Rumours are circulatng in Moscow that Joseph Stalin, the long-time leader of the Soviet Union, is near death. It said the Soviet leader, who came to power in 1928, had suffered a cerebral haemorrhage on Wednesday night.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/5/newsid_2710000/2710127.stm
I think for something to appear at top of the article it should at least be discussed in the article itself? So I suggest those who want to call him a dictator first make a new section that provides arguments (and counter-arguments) that he was a dictator. You can call it "Life under Stalin", "Stalin's rule", or "Evaluation". Once that section is complete we can all look at both sides of the issue and determine if the evidence is strong enough to warrant calling him a dictator in the first paragraph of the article. Any takers? -- Taxico 14:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
There are few, if any sources in English, that might explicitly state that Stalin wasn't a dictator, I own many sources that speak of him as "leader of the soviet union" which would not place him as a dictator but would not argue that he was not one. It is the same as if we needed a source to claim that George Bush is not a monkey, so you can't expect us to provide you with sources in English, from current times which it is explicitly said that Stalin is not a dictator. There was a citation in russian above which in fact described Stalin as a leader and not as a dictator, so please as a matter a fact consider this source, do not dismiss it because it is in Russian. The bottom line is that we need to reach an agreement right away or we are going to be battling this for ever. Ultramarine, get your facts strait, you were not sent to prison if you critized the state after the death of Stalin... it wasn't that severe... I know because I was born and raised in the GDR, and believe me that many people criticized the country and not all of them were in prision... if that were true, everyone in Eastern Europe would have been in prison, so get your facts strait... besides, same thing happens in the US today doesn't it? If you critize the country about the invasion of iraq or publicly demonstrate against Bush you are sent to prison... So let's say that I write an article saying that Bush is a dictator... because peopole are imprisoned in the US for criticizing the state then no sources from the US about Bush not being a dictator as completely unreliable, so in fact good luck proving he isn't a dictator! That's what we are faced with!... Where in wikipedia does it say that sources prior to the fall of the USSR are not reliable? You claim you need sources, well I have more than enough sources, but you people discredit them. Oh and Vidor, the only thing that is worthless around here is the comment you just provided! Kiske 04:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
While I translate the needed sources, here I have sources that say Stalin wasn't a dictator. http://www.mltranslations.org/Russia/webb1.htm - An article logicaly explaining why Stalin wasn't a dictator. Kiske 06:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
In that case... my own sources from the GDR and the USSR, which are scholarly books. But I must translate because apparently, the people judging this are unable to read any language apart from english. Kiske 07:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Ultramarine... have you ever lived in a system other than a capitalist one? Have you ever spoken to people who have lived in a system other than a capitalist one? You are grossly exaggerating everything... people were and are not killed if you critized the government, as I said before, if that were true, everyone in the GDR would have been imprisoned or killed, so please start making those remarks, because they are simply untrue... second your crusade for capitalism and democracy is fair, I respect it, but you can't prevent us from exposing a significant view that opposes your own "democratic ones"... there is a significant amount of people in the world who do not believe Stalin to be a dictator, a significant amount!... you know that, we all know that, the right wing censors in this webpage simply choose to ignore that and demand citations with very specific limitations when there is no need. And please Ultramarine, just stop writing about how people "were killed" if they spoke out against the government because it is a lie. Kiske 20:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I never said that the punishments for speaking against the government didn't exist, they did exist, but it's not anything like you implied in previous comments and it is not as severe as this right wing article suggests it was. It was present yes, but it wasn't as bad as you are informing people that it was. You are grossly exagerating everything. And in regards to the US; same case, does the patriot act ring a bell? And besides, we are not discussing this issue, which is again, just like the Stalin issue, completely out of your understanding... you can't judge a country's system and way of life if you have never lived through it or conducted proper reasearch that might indicate that... besides, stop answering me with quotes and aswer like a real person... besides, the book you have quoted smells like right-wing propaganda to me and it is not really a reliable source because it is trying to condemn the system, provide me with something objective... it is not sticking with a NPOV, please 1 informant per 6.6 citizens? Are you out of your mind? I though you were smarter than a person who buys that sort of information... it is not the 1984 universe, so please stop speaking about things that lie above your own knowledge, you have no idea what you are talking about... no matte how many books you have read you will never have an idea of what it was like because you never lived there, like I did; But again these are not the points we are discussing. And why are you bringing my country into this? What does it have to do with the discussion? Besides, stop bringing that point up, its not really a valid one... so just please stop!
The text above is full of lies and nonsense... what are you talking about? This text supports nothing! Give me the author's name I will have to check this because it is a tremendous lie and supports nothing. It claims that a young manAnd what about the young man was punished for watching WEst German shows in his television... EVERYONE IN EAST GERMANY, or almost everyone watched west German Television, that is why, when television was implemented in the GDR the system that was installed was one which was purposely made compataible with the one in West Germany and not with the ones in the Eastern Block... people in the government where aware of this... The article is complete propagandistic nonsense...and it supports absolutely nothing, it is worthless... The process of collecting the data you need is underway, I am translating what is needed for you to verify it. Kiske 23:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The claim that someone who criticized the USSR was killed comes across as absurd considering that the likes of Solzhenitsyn were actually had their life saved through vital medical treatment.
"To ensure that the people would become and remain submissive, East German communist leaders saturated their realm with more spies than had any other totalitarian government in recent history.
First off, East Germany was not totalitarian. It had numerous political parties. This book has therefore lost its credibility.
In 1920s America, thousands of so-called "radicals" were forceably deported to Russia due to the demagogic anti-communist atmosphere of the time.
As usual, Ultramarine has not idea what he's talking about and resorts to arbitrary rules of what constitutes a reliable source whenever his bullshit is called out. The way he cites "Black Book of Communism" is so typical of people of his outlook.
Ultramarine, here is the citation for the fact that GDR authoritie decided to install a television system that could be compatible with west Germany, to prove that the statement in the book you provided is erroneous. Because I doubt that you read German I could only provide the citation in the Wikipedia Article Broadcasting In Germany, and the citation is as follows: Broadcast system "When television broadcasting started, the GDR chose to use the Western European B/G transmission system rather than the Eastern European D/K system, in order to keep transmissions compatible with West Germany." Therefore, the fact that someone was condemned before a judge because he was watching West German television is wrong, it simply didn't happen because it was something that was done by the government on purpose. The person who wrote the previous statement is right, there were numerous political parties in East Germany, but they only had control in the parliament... but he is right it wasn't as totalitarian as the book has put it. Here is the quote again from the wikipedia article on the politics of East Germany:
"The other political parties ran under the joint slate of the National Front, controlled by the SED, for elections to the Volkskammer, the East German Parliament. (Elections took place, but were effectively controlled by the SED/state hierarchy, as for example Hans Modrow has noted.) In West Germany, the Communist Party was banned.
Christlich-Demokratische Union Deutschlands (Christian Democratic Union of Germany, CDU), merged with the West-German CDU after reunification Demokratische Bauernpartei Deutschlands (Democratic Farmers' Party of Germany, DBD), merged with the West-German CDU after reunification Liberal-Demokratische Partei Deutschlands (Liberal Democratic Party of Germany, LDPD), merged with the West-German FDP after reunification Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands (National Democratic Party of Germany, NDPD), merged with the West-German FDP after reunification The Volkskammer also included representatives from the mass organisations like the Free German Youth (Freie Deutsche Jugend or FDJ), or the Free German Trade Union Federation. In an attempt to include women in the political life in East Germany, there was even a Democratic Women's Federation of Germany with seats in the Volkskammer.
Non-parliamentary mass organisations which nevertheless played a key role in East German society included the German Gymnastics and Sports Association (Deutscher Turn- und Sportbund or DTSB) and People's Solidarity (Volkssolidarität, an organisation for the elderly). Another society of note (and very popular during the late 1980s) was the Society for German-Soviet Friendship.
On March 18, 1990 the first and only free elections in the history of the GDR were held, producing a government whose major mandate was to negotiate an end to itself and its state."
Here it is Ultramarine, and seriously, you can't quote the black book of communism as a reliable source because it is not objective, and from what we just saw, the book you also brought up isn't either. Kiske 22:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I truly understand your points and for once we are agreeing... I know that the quotes are provided are not entirely scholar or anything close to it, but all the sources I have on the issue are written in German and I am not going to translate them because it will take a lot of time... but once again, this issue is something different... I do not want to disagree anymore. But while I am chosing the adequate sources and before I begin translating I have to ask you if you will in fact take the sources from the DDR, Cuba and the USSR seriously, because if you won't I don't want to spend time translating if it is in vain. Kiske 05:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Here I have the first source. It is a biography of Stalin I purchased in Cuba. It was published in 1973 in Moscow in the foreign language editions, which was destined to be brought to countries were Spanish was spoken. The book was coordinated by the Department of Foreign Languages of the Soviet government and was prepared by the Marx-Engels-Lenin Institute in Moscow. The book itself never mentions Stalin as a dictator but instead calls him a leader. The first Chapter is called: "The Birth of a Leader". The chapter which expolores him as a person is titled "The Nature of the Leader" and it never labels him as a dictator. The 6th paragraph reads "Stalin turned 50 on December 21 of that glorious year(1929). And he gave himself the best present he could: The Power to serve the people... despite his achievement, success and ability to expand his deeds, he lived in a very simple way..." This is the first source, it doesn't refer to Stalin as a dictator but as a leader, a leader who served the Soviet people. This is one of the views allowed. The second source I will provide is the introduction of a book written by Stalin himself, the biographic introduction (only section of the book not written by Stalin). The title of the book is "Questions of Leninism" and it was published in the USSR in 1941 in Spanish again in the department of foreign languages and the translation is done "according with the las (11th) soviet edition, published by the state's Publisher of Political Literature in 1939." The introduction of the book says: "Joseph (Jose) Vissarionovich Stalin Dzhugashvili, the great leader of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was born on December 21, 1878..." This is the second source that proves there are sides that do not call him a dictator. I am still searching for more, but this is a beginning. Kiske 18:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Why is it unreliable? Because you say that it is? You asked me to provide quotes from books and I did... all my sources are like this, you wanted me to provide information books proclaiming that there is a different point of view in regards to Stalin, I have proved to you that this book exists. Why isn't a book published in 1941 unreliable? Because it is published by a nation that doesn't exist. I have provided reliable truth that a new view exists, and given that I have provided this it is your obligation to present both points of view, because the do exist. Kiske 22:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I understand you point very well and very clearly. You are right, these sources are out dated, but they can be used to represent the fact that at one point, Stalin was not globally considered to be a dictator and that it is only since the collapse of the Eastern Block that he has been labelled as such by everyone, but that there are many sources before the fall that depict him as a leader. If we do that, I will agree with everything. We can say that Stalin was a dictator, but that in past times he was not considered one. that way we ahere to Wikipedia policies and the sources I provided can be used, as wikipedia says, to provide information on the evolution of the topic. Kiske 00:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
You are right Merzbow I'll use my own sources and create a new section in the article titled Views of Stalin over time, in which I will explain that before the fall the Eastern Block and other communist nations didn't portray Stalin as a dictator, but as a leader that served the people. In regards to the dictator label, I konw you have proven to me that a significant majority considers him to be a dictator, but don't you believe that saying it in the introduction turns it into an absolute truth? But nevertheless I agree with you and I will begin to work on that new section Stalin over time... I compromise... but still take the question I posed in the previous sentence seriously, because that is the impression I receive from the introduction of an article. Kiske 18:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Kiske 00:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Everything discussed by the POV motivated pro-dictator side is a fallacy. Very few if any sources have actually thoroughly analyzed whether Stalin was a dictator or not. A higher number of sources on the likes of Jstor, Proquest, and other scholarly collections yield higher results for Stalin as a leader than as a dictator. Virtually all Russian sources such as Hronos refer to Stalin as "state and party leader". Scholars J.Arch Getty, Robert Thurston debunk the myth of Stalin as an omnipotent figure with complete control over the country by demonstrating the activities of regional party officials responsible for much of the violence in 1937-38. There was no natural position of Party ruler or leader in the manner of ‘Duce’ or ‘Führer’, and technically the Supreme Soviet was the legitimate supreme authority. Khlevniuk argues that Stalin’s ‘power’ in such a structure should be understood in terms of ‘oligarchism’, in which Stalin had a ‘decisive’ interventional role.
Furthermore, until the Great Purges, no single figure was, by himself, more powerful than the others combined. Stalin still relied on the consent of other Politburo members. Stalin’s contribution to the Party’s ‘collective rule’ system ‘inevitably reproduced oligarchic structures of power.’ Indeed, the Politburo itself, drowning in its own attempts to micromanage the Soviet state, constantly engaged in ad hoc ‘hypercentralisation’ with little institutional strategy. With no other paradigm to work within, Stalin replicated this system when reacting to the various policy and political conflicts played out on the Politburo. With the lack of a consensus, you cannot go ahead with putting whatever you like in the introduction.
While I'm no expert, I do believe there is a formal definition of dictator rooted in the latin notion of a magistrate formally invested with the powers of a tyrant. If Stalin was never legally conferred these powers, then he may in fact not have been a dictator. However, I believe there is more than enough evidence from the historical record to regard him as a despot - i.e. a ruler exercising absolute power. Is the term despot or despotic ruler more acceptable? Ronnotel 18:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
According to that definition there would have been no dictator for 2050 years, since Caesar's death. Clearly, this is ridiculous. Str1977 (smile back) 18:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Of course they are reliable... you cannot discard a source solely because of its origins! So let me understand you points, nothing that comes from a Soviet source is reliable right? You are wrong! And I told you before, the book you used before regarding the imprisonment is grossly exaggerating! Nixer is right, and he is exercising the use of the encyclopedia to demonstrate that Marxist couldn't conceive a dictatorship because of ideological differences, and to illustrate this example he used a marxist source which supports a view that is entertained by marxism. Don't be such a radical! Soviet sources may disagree with your views but it doesn't mean that everything they say is false... and again, last time, people were not killed if they spoke against the state! IF that were true everyone in the eastern block would have been in prison or dead. Apart from that I already provided the sources which do not claim Stalin as a dictator, you can check them in the other section of the talk page... enough said, they are Soviet Sources, but they finally proclaim a view you saw as an impossibility and prove that there are sources who don't see Stalin as a dictator. Besides, the sources you use are entirely biased, unobjective and therefore, as a consequence, completely unreliable! You are telling me the black book of communism is objective and reliable?! Of course not! It is as if you were to use an anti-Nazist book to explain Naxism in an objective manner! wrong. Kiske 22:54, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Ultramarine has made yet another baseless statement in regard to people being killed for differing views. At the same time, has cited the widely discredited "Black Book of Communism" which uses a wide variety of obsolete and unverifiable sources. [6] In East Germany, except for the aftermath of the June 1953 revolt, capital punishment was largely avoided. [7]
Alright, look, we can't let an extremely vocal minority mess up this article. According to WP:FRINGE, we should certainly mention what Soviet sources say about the subject, but mainstream history considers Stalin a dictator. TomTheHand 16:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
That is just your opinion. Google book search has 1348 results for "Stalin Soviet leader" but only 773 for "Stalin Soviet Dictator". People have still yet to put forth an adequate response to the fact that Stalin was the prime minister from 1941-53.
Once again, Ultramarine, you are wrong... I have provided sources that support my claims, but of course, your ideals seem not to accept anything that opposes them, so I will not waist my time explaining them to you. "Lots of people were murdered and imprisoned?" Okay I understand, if that makes you feel like you've won the battle well, then I have nothing to say except for the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about and that the views of the world from behind a bullet proof glass are not really real! The idea you have of what it's like livingin a communist nation is completely distorted, but that can be understood, given that you are living in the most imperialist nation on Earth! Kiske 23:28, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I already reached an agreement with Merzbow, but the sources I mentioned and quote that support my arguments you can find in the "suggestions" section. The sources proclaim Stalin, not as a dictator, but as a leader who served the people. Regardless of what they say, I have compromised, the introduction to the article will say dictator, but there will be another section which will read "Views of Stalin over time", which I am in the process of creating, in which the different perspectives will be exposed and explained. Kiske 10:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
That issue has already been worked out and we are in the process of placing it in the article. Nevertheless, your oxford history is completely erroneous just because it says that Stalin was Russian. Stalin wasn't Russian, he was born in Georgia and died in 1953, 38 years before the fall of the of the USSR, which would mean he was a soviet citizen... Oxford should say Soviet Dictator... Oxford is generalizing and using Russian and Soviet as the same words,which of course they are not... your dictionary is completely erroneous and it is away from sources such as those that we should avoid. Kiske 20:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
Archives:
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
If you say Stalin is a dictator, then why not to say George W. Bush is war criminal?--[[User:get some solid historical sources that disagree with the term "dictator" to cite. Heimstern Läufer 15:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
There was no law establishing absolutist rule for Stalin. He was just one of dozens of leaders of the Communist Party in the Politbureau. Such flagrant POV slander are not permitted in an encyclopedia:
First let it be noted that, unlike Mussolini, Hitler and other modern dictators, Stalin is not invested by law with any authority over his fellow-citizens, and not even over the members of the Party to which he belongs. He has not even the extensive power which the Congress of the United States has temporarily conferred upon President Roosevelt, or that which the American Constitution entrusts for four years to every successive president. So far as grade or dignity is concerned, Stalin is in no sense the highest official in the USSR, or even in the Communist Party. He is not, and has never been, President of the Presidium of the Central Executive Committee of the All-Union Congress of Soviets-a place long held by Sverdlov and now by Kalinin, who is commonly treated as the President of the USSR.
http://www.mltranslations.org/Russia/webb1.htm
You are all missing the point! Whether or not he was a dictator is not what really matters here! What matters is the fact that because he was never formally given the "title" of dictator giving him such a title is giving a trait he was never actually given, which is, whether you like it or not, providing POV information. Stalin may have been a dictator, and it may be true that 99.9% of the world's population including the majority of former Soviet Citizens think and believe he might be a dictator...but providing him with that title is being POV...it is not an absolute truth! (Like Felipe Calderon being the president of Mexico or Angela Merkel being Chancellor of Germany) it is a trait. It is like saying that George W. Bush is am imperialist or a conqueror a war criminal, a murderer or an aggressor...the facts are that he is an conqueror and an imperialist, but because he has not been awarded such a title formally, it would be POV to write "George W. Bush, president of the US and conqueror or invader of Iraq", even though it might be true because I am giving him a trait based on judgment, not on accuracy or solid facts...what is a dictator? Where do we define dictator? Where does a dictator begin or end? What are the limits? There is nothing in the world, no paper or anything that specifies this, so there is not way we can award him such a title in an accurate encyclopedia, even though in the end he might very well be a dictator...understand? Understand?! We are not debating his evilness or how democratic he was! We are debating the fact that the man has been called something he was never formally turned into and solely based on judgment. It is like saying (in another context) that a pornographic actress is a pervert of that David Lynch might be deranged because of his films or that Nicholas Cage is a bad actor or that James Joyce is a great writer...they are not traits that have been formally given (even though they might be true) to these people and should therefore not be placed on their page, in the initial part. Maybe in the later part of the article there could be a section talking about how good some people consider this writer (or how Stalin is considered by many to be a dictator)...Please, this is the last time I am going to try to convince you of this...If you don't understand...you are mentally retarded and I will be forced to create an editing war and change Dictator every chance I get in this encyclopedia...I am only sticking to wikipedian policies and doing what I should be doing...you are the ones that are wrong! Kiske 06:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
The bottom is that nobody on the anti-dictator side here has presented ANY quotes from reliable historians that argue against calling Stalin a dictator. All the prominent historians I've read call him such (and I'd be willing to present the quotes), so that's the consensus view. If you want to dethrone the consensus view, policy demands that you actually back up your changes with evidence. - Merzbow 19:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I could care less what the right wing bias might say about stalin, I can present millions of quotes from before the fall of the eastern block that do not refer to stalin as a dictator, I can find quotes on anything!, there are quotes on everything, but that doesn't mean that they are right! And to C33, my opinion is not irrelevant, if you fascist bias simply blinds your thoughts on a clear and simple issue, that is your problem... It doesn't matter if every person in the world calls Stalin a dictator, because it implies a certain qualification to his reign we cannot, if we choose to follow the NPOV say he was a dictator. The articles on Saddam Hussein and Fidel Castro do not say they are dictators, so we shouldn't either. This is my last word on the matter, this has previously been discussed and we reached an agreement... Stalin being labeled as a dictator in this article will not stand as long as I live!... If you fail to understand the points, that is your problem, but what I explained above and you refused to accept is very clear, very simple... you are all simply too biased to understand it! Kiske 19:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Staberinde.... never insult me again first of all. I do apologize, you are right, there was no clear agreement... but that doesn't mean that the article should remain as labeling the man as a dictator. I am not going to compromise if the counter argument, the argument that I stand for is also exposed!... calling stalin a dictator is not objective, if you want me to compromise, we should then write something like this: "Stalin was the de facto leader and in right wing, capitalist view, dictator of the USSR. It should also be noted that he is not globally considered to be a dictator and the notion of him being a dictator in the Soviet Union only emerged when Mikhail Gorbachev came to power; but there are still many people that do not consider him a dictator." If something like this is not done, then the article will remain biased, and I will not have that... why don't you fight for the Saddam Hussein article to say he was also a dictator? There is nothing wrong with not saying that he was a dictator, this is not after all, a formal trait, but something based on western perspectives and nothing more... Kiske 21:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree Heimstern, I like your way of thinking, and I do apologize, but I am frustrated by the fact that no one understands my points, they are simply to biased to even consider Stalin not being a dictator, or at least not mentioning it. And I am willing to work on a compromise for this article, something that will satisfy us all...and there are many different views on stalin, the two major ones are yours and mine... 1.- He was a dictator. 2.- He wasn't... but again, whether he was a dictator or not doesn't really matter, what matters is that calling him a dictator is biased because it is not something that is universally aknowledged or a trait that is objective... it is something based on judgement, just as if I were to say on Miguel de Cervantes Article that the Quixote is an excellent book... it is an excellent book, but saying that is giving a trait it doesn't really have formally. Understand? Kiske 21:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Merzbow, what are you saying? you think you are doing me a favor? It is not up to you what happens to the article... who made you judge? Good faith?! What are you talking about? Since when does good faith have anything to do with this article... nothing! I do have many sources that don't exactley negate him being a dictator but simply portray him as leader of the soviet union. And why do you need them by a professor? Why would that be more reliable than one by a historian who is not a professor? I don't have any in English, I only have them in German, Russian and Spanish, which come from Cuba, the GDR and the USSR, and they are all from before 1980. Would a translation be sufficient? Kiske 22:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Stalin is widely portrayed in popular accounts in the west as a dictator( Britannica, MSN Encarta, Columbia Encyclopedia, PBS, BBC, CNN). if he is similarly dealt with by professional historians, then it shld be easy to substantiate with a similar list.
assuming that this is done, it is upto those who think that he shld not be referred to as a dictator to compile similar lists to demonstrate that that view is held by significant minority (or more). if this can't be done, then WP can retain the "dictator" tag. if it can be done, then the dictator tag is qualified as controversial.
WP is not the place for original research, and much of the discussion (eg. disc. regarding what are necessary and sufficient conditions for dictatorship, comparisons to other dictators), i think, is attempting to synthesize published arguments to advance the position that he is or is not a D., such original determinations, of course, cannot be used in writing WP articles. Doldrums 11:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Mentioning the BBC is laughable considering how ridiculous of a propaganda outlet it is for western imperialism. It'd be no different than citing Radio Moscow in a biography about Churchill or Truman. Various entries in Russia's prominent Hronos encyclopedia lack the term "dictator":
From the end of the 1930s he became the Russian statesman and military leader of the Russian people during Great Domestic war.
Stalin (1878-1953), politician, Hero of Socialist Work (1939), Hero of Soviet Union (1945), Marshal of Soviet Union (1943), Generalissimo of Soviet Union (1945).
http://www.hrono.ru/biograf/stalin.html
The likes of Merzbow and Ultramarine are right-wing propagandists who have an agenda to push. This is exposed by their use of the laughably partisan "Black Book of Communism". The various sources used by Hronos proves that Stalin was not a dictator. http://www.hrono.ru/biograf/stalin.html
Scholarly sources by professional historians that do not call Stalin a dictator include works by E.H Carr, R.W Davies, and Stephen Wheatcroft.
Additionally, on Proquest Database, there are 4876 results for "Stalin Soviet Leader". For "Stalin Soviet Dictator" there are only 3260 results by comparison. The characterization of Stalin as a dictator is false for the reason that no law gave him supreme authority and the fact that he was prime minister from 1941-53.
What the fuck are you talking about? This is a page for disputes in regard to facts and perspective. You blatantly contradict yourself with your reiteration of Wikipedia's policies even though you completely violate them with your vandalism at the "Holodomor" page and your violation of NPOV policy with the vandalism of smearing Stalin as a dictator. The propaganda outlets your ilk incessantly cites contains the following: Rumours are circulatng in Moscow that Joseph Stalin, the long-time leader of the Soviet Union, is near death. It said the Soviet leader, who came to power in 1928, had suffered a cerebral haemorrhage on Wednesday night.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/5/newsid_2710000/2710127.stm
I think for something to appear at top of the article it should at least be discussed in the article itself? So I suggest those who want to call him a dictator first make a new section that provides arguments (and counter-arguments) that he was a dictator. You can call it "Life under Stalin", "Stalin's rule", or "Evaluation". Once that section is complete we can all look at both sides of the issue and determine if the evidence is strong enough to warrant calling him a dictator in the first paragraph of the article. Any takers? -- Taxico 14:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
There are few, if any sources in English, that might explicitly state that Stalin wasn't a dictator, I own many sources that speak of him as "leader of the soviet union" which would not place him as a dictator but would not argue that he was not one. It is the same as if we needed a source to claim that George Bush is not a monkey, so you can't expect us to provide you with sources in English, from current times which it is explicitly said that Stalin is not a dictator. There was a citation in russian above which in fact described Stalin as a leader and not as a dictator, so please as a matter a fact consider this source, do not dismiss it because it is in Russian. The bottom line is that we need to reach an agreement right away or we are going to be battling this for ever. Ultramarine, get your facts strait, you were not sent to prison if you critized the state after the death of Stalin... it wasn't that severe... I know because I was born and raised in the GDR, and believe me that many people criticized the country and not all of them were in prision... if that were true, everyone in Eastern Europe would have been in prison, so get your facts strait... besides, same thing happens in the US today doesn't it? If you critize the country about the invasion of iraq or publicly demonstrate against Bush you are sent to prison... So let's say that I write an article saying that Bush is a dictator... because peopole are imprisoned in the US for criticizing the state then no sources from the US about Bush not being a dictator as completely unreliable, so in fact good luck proving he isn't a dictator! That's what we are faced with!... Where in wikipedia does it say that sources prior to the fall of the USSR are not reliable? You claim you need sources, well I have more than enough sources, but you people discredit them. Oh and Vidor, the only thing that is worthless around here is the comment you just provided! Kiske 04:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
While I translate the needed sources, here I have sources that say Stalin wasn't a dictator. http://www.mltranslations.org/Russia/webb1.htm - An article logicaly explaining why Stalin wasn't a dictator. Kiske 06:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
In that case... my own sources from the GDR and the USSR, which are scholarly books. But I must translate because apparently, the people judging this are unable to read any language apart from english. Kiske 07:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Ultramarine... have you ever lived in a system other than a capitalist one? Have you ever spoken to people who have lived in a system other than a capitalist one? You are grossly exaggerating everything... people were and are not killed if you critized the government, as I said before, if that were true, everyone in the GDR would have been imprisoned or killed, so please start making those remarks, because they are simply untrue... second your crusade for capitalism and democracy is fair, I respect it, but you can't prevent us from exposing a significant view that opposes your own "democratic ones"... there is a significant amount of people in the world who do not believe Stalin to be a dictator, a significant amount!... you know that, we all know that, the right wing censors in this webpage simply choose to ignore that and demand citations with very specific limitations when there is no need. And please Ultramarine, just stop writing about how people "were killed" if they spoke out against the government because it is a lie. Kiske 20:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I never said that the punishments for speaking against the government didn't exist, they did exist, but it's not anything like you implied in previous comments and it is not as severe as this right wing article suggests it was. It was present yes, but it wasn't as bad as you are informing people that it was. You are grossly exagerating everything. And in regards to the US; same case, does the patriot act ring a bell? And besides, we are not discussing this issue, which is again, just like the Stalin issue, completely out of your understanding... you can't judge a country's system and way of life if you have never lived through it or conducted proper reasearch that might indicate that... besides, stop answering me with quotes and aswer like a real person... besides, the book you have quoted smells like right-wing propaganda to me and it is not really a reliable source because it is trying to condemn the system, provide me with something objective... it is not sticking with a NPOV, please 1 informant per 6.6 citizens? Are you out of your mind? I though you were smarter than a person who buys that sort of information... it is not the 1984 universe, so please stop speaking about things that lie above your own knowledge, you have no idea what you are talking about... no matte how many books you have read you will never have an idea of what it was like because you never lived there, like I did; But again these are not the points we are discussing. And why are you bringing my country into this? What does it have to do with the discussion? Besides, stop bringing that point up, its not really a valid one... so just please stop!
The text above is full of lies and nonsense... what are you talking about? This text supports nothing! Give me the author's name I will have to check this because it is a tremendous lie and supports nothing. It claims that a young manAnd what about the young man was punished for watching WEst German shows in his television... EVERYONE IN EAST GERMANY, or almost everyone watched west German Television, that is why, when television was implemented in the GDR the system that was installed was one which was purposely made compataible with the one in West Germany and not with the ones in the Eastern Block... people in the government where aware of this... The article is complete propagandistic nonsense...and it supports absolutely nothing, it is worthless... The process of collecting the data you need is underway, I am translating what is needed for you to verify it. Kiske 23:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The claim that someone who criticized the USSR was killed comes across as absurd considering that the likes of Solzhenitsyn were actually had their life saved through vital medical treatment.
"To ensure that the people would become and remain submissive, East German communist leaders saturated their realm with more spies than had any other totalitarian government in recent history.
First off, East Germany was not totalitarian. It had numerous political parties. This book has therefore lost its credibility.
In 1920s America, thousands of so-called "radicals" were forceably deported to Russia due to the demagogic anti-communist atmosphere of the time.
As usual, Ultramarine has not idea what he's talking about and resorts to arbitrary rules of what constitutes a reliable source whenever his bullshit is called out. The way he cites "Black Book of Communism" is so typical of people of his outlook.
Ultramarine, here is the citation for the fact that GDR authoritie decided to install a television system that could be compatible with west Germany, to prove that the statement in the book you provided is erroneous. Because I doubt that you read German I could only provide the citation in the Wikipedia Article Broadcasting In Germany, and the citation is as follows: Broadcast system "When television broadcasting started, the GDR chose to use the Western European B/G transmission system rather than the Eastern European D/K system, in order to keep transmissions compatible with West Germany." Therefore, the fact that someone was condemned before a judge because he was watching West German television is wrong, it simply didn't happen because it was something that was done by the government on purpose. The person who wrote the previous statement is right, there were numerous political parties in East Germany, but they only had control in the parliament... but he is right it wasn't as totalitarian as the book has put it. Here is the quote again from the wikipedia article on the politics of East Germany:
"The other political parties ran under the joint slate of the National Front, controlled by the SED, for elections to the Volkskammer, the East German Parliament. (Elections took place, but were effectively controlled by the SED/state hierarchy, as for example Hans Modrow has noted.) In West Germany, the Communist Party was banned.
Christlich-Demokratische Union Deutschlands (Christian Democratic Union of Germany, CDU), merged with the West-German CDU after reunification Demokratische Bauernpartei Deutschlands (Democratic Farmers' Party of Germany, DBD), merged with the West-German CDU after reunification Liberal-Demokratische Partei Deutschlands (Liberal Democratic Party of Germany, LDPD), merged with the West-German FDP after reunification Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands (National Democratic Party of Germany, NDPD), merged with the West-German FDP after reunification The Volkskammer also included representatives from the mass organisations like the Free German Youth (Freie Deutsche Jugend or FDJ), or the Free German Trade Union Federation. In an attempt to include women in the political life in East Germany, there was even a Democratic Women's Federation of Germany with seats in the Volkskammer.
Non-parliamentary mass organisations which nevertheless played a key role in East German society included the German Gymnastics and Sports Association (Deutscher Turn- und Sportbund or DTSB) and People's Solidarity (Volkssolidarität, an organisation for the elderly). Another society of note (and very popular during the late 1980s) was the Society for German-Soviet Friendship.
On March 18, 1990 the first and only free elections in the history of the GDR were held, producing a government whose major mandate was to negotiate an end to itself and its state."
Here it is Ultramarine, and seriously, you can't quote the black book of communism as a reliable source because it is not objective, and from what we just saw, the book you also brought up isn't either. Kiske 22:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I truly understand your points and for once we are agreeing... I know that the quotes are provided are not entirely scholar or anything close to it, but all the sources I have on the issue are written in German and I am not going to translate them because it will take a lot of time... but once again, this issue is something different... I do not want to disagree anymore. But while I am chosing the adequate sources and before I begin translating I have to ask you if you will in fact take the sources from the DDR, Cuba and the USSR seriously, because if you won't I don't want to spend time translating if it is in vain. Kiske 05:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Here I have the first source. It is a biography of Stalin I purchased in Cuba. It was published in 1973 in Moscow in the foreign language editions, which was destined to be brought to countries were Spanish was spoken. The book was coordinated by the Department of Foreign Languages of the Soviet government and was prepared by the Marx-Engels-Lenin Institute in Moscow. The book itself never mentions Stalin as a dictator but instead calls him a leader. The first Chapter is called: "The Birth of a Leader". The chapter which expolores him as a person is titled "The Nature of the Leader" and it never labels him as a dictator. The 6th paragraph reads "Stalin turned 50 on December 21 of that glorious year(1929). And he gave himself the best present he could: The Power to serve the people... despite his achievement, success and ability to expand his deeds, he lived in a very simple way..." This is the first source, it doesn't refer to Stalin as a dictator but as a leader, a leader who served the Soviet people. This is one of the views allowed. The second source I will provide is the introduction of a book written by Stalin himself, the biographic introduction (only section of the book not written by Stalin). The title of the book is "Questions of Leninism" and it was published in the USSR in 1941 in Spanish again in the department of foreign languages and the translation is done "according with the las (11th) soviet edition, published by the state's Publisher of Political Literature in 1939." The introduction of the book says: "Joseph (Jose) Vissarionovich Stalin Dzhugashvili, the great leader of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was born on December 21, 1878..." This is the second source that proves there are sides that do not call him a dictator. I am still searching for more, but this is a beginning. Kiske 18:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Why is it unreliable? Because you say that it is? You asked me to provide quotes from books and I did... all my sources are like this, you wanted me to provide information books proclaiming that there is a different point of view in regards to Stalin, I have proved to you that this book exists. Why isn't a book published in 1941 unreliable? Because it is published by a nation that doesn't exist. I have provided reliable truth that a new view exists, and given that I have provided this it is your obligation to present both points of view, because the do exist. Kiske 22:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I understand you point very well and very clearly. You are right, these sources are out dated, but they can be used to represent the fact that at one point, Stalin was not globally considered to be a dictator and that it is only since the collapse of the Eastern Block that he has been labelled as such by everyone, but that there are many sources before the fall that depict him as a leader. If we do that, I will agree with everything. We can say that Stalin was a dictator, but that in past times he was not considered one. that way we ahere to Wikipedia policies and the sources I provided can be used, as wikipedia says, to provide information on the evolution of the topic. Kiske 00:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
You are right Merzbow I'll use my own sources and create a new section in the article titled Views of Stalin over time, in which I will explain that before the fall the Eastern Block and other communist nations didn't portray Stalin as a dictator, but as a leader that served the people. In regards to the dictator label, I konw you have proven to me that a significant majority considers him to be a dictator, but don't you believe that saying it in the introduction turns it into an absolute truth? But nevertheless I agree with you and I will begin to work on that new section Stalin over time... I compromise... but still take the question I posed in the previous sentence seriously, because that is the impression I receive from the introduction of an article. Kiske 18:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Kiske 00:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Everything discussed by the POV motivated pro-dictator side is a fallacy. Very few if any sources have actually thoroughly analyzed whether Stalin was a dictator or not. A higher number of sources on the likes of Jstor, Proquest, and other scholarly collections yield higher results for Stalin as a leader than as a dictator. Virtually all Russian sources such as Hronos refer to Stalin as "state and party leader". Scholars J.Arch Getty, Robert Thurston debunk the myth of Stalin as an omnipotent figure with complete control over the country by demonstrating the activities of regional party officials responsible for much of the violence in 1937-38. There was no natural position of Party ruler or leader in the manner of ‘Duce’ or ‘Führer’, and technically the Supreme Soviet was the legitimate supreme authority. Khlevniuk argues that Stalin’s ‘power’ in such a structure should be understood in terms of ‘oligarchism’, in which Stalin had a ‘decisive’ interventional role.
Furthermore, until the Great Purges, no single figure was, by himself, more powerful than the others combined. Stalin still relied on the consent of other Politburo members. Stalin’s contribution to the Party’s ‘collective rule’ system ‘inevitably reproduced oligarchic structures of power.’ Indeed, the Politburo itself, drowning in its own attempts to micromanage the Soviet state, constantly engaged in ad hoc ‘hypercentralisation’ with little institutional strategy. With no other paradigm to work within, Stalin replicated this system when reacting to the various policy and political conflicts played out on the Politburo. With the lack of a consensus, you cannot go ahead with putting whatever you like in the introduction.
While I'm no expert, I do believe there is a formal definition of dictator rooted in the latin notion of a magistrate formally invested with the powers of a tyrant. If Stalin was never legally conferred these powers, then he may in fact not have been a dictator. However, I believe there is more than enough evidence from the historical record to regard him as a despot - i.e. a ruler exercising absolute power. Is the term despot or despotic ruler more acceptable? Ronnotel 18:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
According to that definition there would have been no dictator for 2050 years, since Caesar's death. Clearly, this is ridiculous. Str1977 (smile back) 18:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Of course they are reliable... you cannot discard a source solely because of its origins! So let me understand you points, nothing that comes from a Soviet source is reliable right? You are wrong! And I told you before, the book you used before regarding the imprisonment is grossly exaggerating! Nixer is right, and he is exercising the use of the encyclopedia to demonstrate that Marxist couldn't conceive a dictatorship because of ideological differences, and to illustrate this example he used a marxist source which supports a view that is entertained by marxism. Don't be such a radical! Soviet sources may disagree with your views but it doesn't mean that everything they say is false... and again, last time, people were not killed if they spoke against the state! IF that were true everyone in the eastern block would have been in prison or dead. Apart from that I already provided the sources which do not claim Stalin as a dictator, you can check them in the other section of the talk page... enough said, they are Soviet Sources, but they finally proclaim a view you saw as an impossibility and prove that there are sources who don't see Stalin as a dictator. Besides, the sources you use are entirely biased, unobjective and therefore, as a consequence, completely unreliable! You are telling me the black book of communism is objective and reliable?! Of course not! It is as if you were to use an anti-Nazist book to explain Naxism in an objective manner! wrong. Kiske 22:54, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Ultramarine has made yet another baseless statement in regard to people being killed for differing views. At the same time, has cited the widely discredited "Black Book of Communism" which uses a wide variety of obsolete and unverifiable sources. [6] In East Germany, except for the aftermath of the June 1953 revolt, capital punishment was largely avoided. [7]
Alright, look, we can't let an extremely vocal minority mess up this article. According to WP:FRINGE, we should certainly mention what Soviet sources say about the subject, but mainstream history considers Stalin a dictator. TomTheHand 16:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
That is just your opinion. Google book search has 1348 results for "Stalin Soviet leader" but only 773 for "Stalin Soviet Dictator". People have still yet to put forth an adequate response to the fact that Stalin was the prime minister from 1941-53.
Once again, Ultramarine, you are wrong... I have provided sources that support my claims, but of course, your ideals seem not to accept anything that opposes them, so I will not waist my time explaining them to you. "Lots of people were murdered and imprisoned?" Okay I understand, if that makes you feel like you've won the battle well, then I have nothing to say except for the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about and that the views of the world from behind a bullet proof glass are not really real! The idea you have of what it's like livingin a communist nation is completely distorted, but that can be understood, given that you are living in the most imperialist nation on Earth! Kiske 23:28, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I already reached an agreement with Merzbow, but the sources I mentioned and quote that support my arguments you can find in the "suggestions" section. The sources proclaim Stalin, not as a dictator, but as a leader who served the people. Regardless of what they say, I have compromised, the introduction to the article will say dictator, but there will be another section which will read "Views of Stalin over time", which I am in the process of creating, in which the different perspectives will be exposed and explained. Kiske 10:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
That issue has already been worked out and we are in the process of placing it in the article. Nevertheless, your oxford history is completely erroneous just because it says that Stalin was Russian. Stalin wasn't Russian, he was born in Georgia and died in 1953, 38 years before the fall of the of the USSR, which would mean he was a soviet citizen... Oxford should say Soviet Dictator... Oxford is generalizing and using Russian and Soviet as the same words,which of course they are not... your dictionary is completely erroneous and it is away from sources such as those that we should avoid. Kiske 20:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
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