This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
A proper Spanish name would be Nueva Helvecia. Being Sutter a non-native speaker of Spanish, I can't say if that Nuevo Helvetia is historic or a typo. Could you explain what parts of current California New Helvetia covered? I read that the current value of the estate that the 49ers squatted would be enormous, not counting the gold they stole.
As far as I know, the real name of John Sutter was Johann Augustus Suter, with a single t. That explains why Blaise Cendrars, who knew well a cousin of Sut(t)er, wrote suter in his novel. Jean-no 17:17, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually no. Sutter was born as Johann August Sutter (with two "t"). It's worth noting that his father (Johann Jakob) was born as Suter (with one "t") following the tradition of spelling the name of Suter in the village of origin in Switzerland (Rünenberg). But Johann August being born in the village of Kandern (i.e. in the margravate of Baden in Germany, situated 13 miles from Basel), not in his Swiss village of origin, the name was spelled with two t's.
The California Gold Rush article has been nominated for Featured article status. If you would like to comment on this nomination, please go here to leave your comment. To leave a comment on that page, click the [edit] link to the right of the title California Gold Rush. NorCalHistory 20:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
New Helvetia says he is from Liestal. -- 84.20.17.84 15:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Why are two of the categories for this article Mormon pioneers and History of the Latter Day Saint movement? Was he a mormon? Orangemarlin 01:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't be it be February 15,1803 for his birthdate for the headline on this page named The New World. 67.164.26.4 ( talk) 19:16, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, but if he was really born in Kandern, Baden-Württemberg then he was German - therefore he was German-American. Or are you from Kanada if you were born in Boston or Portland?? Or are you Mexican if you were born in San Diego?? See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandern — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.172.141.191 ( talk) 20:27, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
He was born in Kandern(Germany), close to Basel (Switzerland). But: His parents were swiss --> so he was also swiss citizen of Rüneberg in the Canton Basel-Land. He made his apprenticeship in Basel. See: http://www.videoportal.sf.tv/video?id=fc2cbb89-5c38-4365-99b5-7b8c396ace7a — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.155.114.95 ( talk) 21:56, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Germany and Switzerland had, and still have, the Jus sanguinis and not the Jus soli you may know from the U.S. Swiss citizenship is inherited; by Swiss law, you are considered Swiss if born in Germany (or any other country) to parents of Swiss citizenship, and vice versa the children of foreigners born in Germany are not considered Germans there. Therefore, Sutter was, according to Swiss and German custom, considered a Swiss born in Germany, but not a German at all. Gestumblindi ( talk) 00:42, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
he died "almost poor"? PurpleChez ( talk) 04:20, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Next time you read about gold around the world how many discoveries will there be in a row, before you realize that all it takes is one discovery, and all the rest just support your notion that gold already exists. 66.74.176.59 ( talk) 04:03, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
This article, at least, takes us to task for saying that Sutter "employed" the local Indians, providing a (sadly, uncited) quotation from one of Sutter's managers: "I had to lock the Indian women and men together in a large room to prevent them from returning to their homes in the mountains at night. Large numbers deserted during the daytime." There's also more there, though none of it specifically cited to solid sources. Someone working on this article should probably follow that up. - Jmabel | Talk 21:51, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Conversely, our article provides no citation for the statement that Indians were employed rather than enslaved. - Jmabel | Talk 21:53, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
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The birthdates in the body text and the infobox are inconsistent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.1.170 ( talk) 02:49, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
An IP has been attempting to change the mentions of John Sutter to John Sutter Sr. The first attempt was unsourced, the second was justified by what another Wikiarticle uses, and the third by the title of a 150 year old book. Our article is titled "John Sutter" and the references cited in the article that I checked I did not check all of them) consistently use "John Sutter". with no Sr. If WP:COMMONNAME gives us the title "John Sutter" does it make any sense to change the article contents to use "John Sutter Sr."? Meters ( talk) 20:56, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
Nobody is born "Sr.", it's added after they name their son Jr., by writers who want to distinguish them. A book was published in 1867 while he was still alive calling him Sr. for this reason, and this proves the case. https://books.google.com/books/about/John_A_Sutter_Sr_and_His_Grants.html?id=dUkdHQAACAAJ John A. Sutter, Sr., and His Grants by John A. Laufkotter, Russell & Winterburn, 1867
So, the lead line should say "John Augustus Sutter (Sr.)".
== 74.95.112.141:
Even though most California school children know his name, he was a commercial failure who resented the fact that his son ( John Sutter Jr.) had succeded where he had failed.
Why was this placed in /Talk? maveric149
He was not a commercial failure.
Unfortunetely, I must disagree. Sutter's Fort failed, Sutter's Mill was not profitable, Sutter was not able to take advantage of Marshall's discovery of gold there, Suttervile faded into history, and I remember reading that Sutter died a poor man. Sounds like a commercial failure to me. maveric149
Having been raised in California, I can tell you that the required history texts for California history say Sutter died poor and always point out the historic irony that, despite his pivotal position in the beginnings of the Gold Rush, he made little money from it. JHK
Why this talk about Sutter having failed commercially and having died poor? Is wealth the main standard for appraising the life of a man? Actually Sutter was a great adventurer, a symbol of those early pioneers who travelled from Europe to America, crossed the continent and settled in California. He fled bankruptcy in Switzerland, okay - should have he gone to jail as it was the tradition in this time? He went on board an American ship, "Sully", which made the distance between Le Havre (France) and New York in 45 days - he arrived there on 14 July 1834. He went west, tried to trade on the Santa Fe trail and in Westport, but he was obviously not an entrepreneur. Except that he built an empire in the Sacramento Valley and played a decisive role in the shift of California from Mexico to the US. Yes, the discovery of gold was his tragedy, and it would take a whole book to explain why. But his life crossed the whole 19th century (from 1803 to 1880) and circumstances made that he met a lot of those men who played an important role in this part of US history (for example: John Fremont, Kit Carson). So he should be recognised perhaps not as a hero but at least as a unique character who took many risks to build a new life in the new world. In doing that he contributed to change the fate of California. And he died poor, yes, (but less than legend says), and so what? What a beautiful journey he made!
Text in question placed back in article.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
A proper Spanish name would be Nueva Helvecia. Being Sutter a non-native speaker of Spanish, I can't say if that Nuevo Helvetia is historic or a typo. Could you explain what parts of current California New Helvetia covered? I read that the current value of the estate that the 49ers squatted would be enormous, not counting the gold they stole.
As far as I know, the real name of John Sutter was Johann Augustus Suter, with a single t. That explains why Blaise Cendrars, who knew well a cousin of Sut(t)er, wrote suter in his novel. Jean-no 17:17, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually no. Sutter was born as Johann August Sutter (with two "t"). It's worth noting that his father (Johann Jakob) was born as Suter (with one "t") following the tradition of spelling the name of Suter in the village of origin in Switzerland (Rünenberg). But Johann August being born in the village of Kandern (i.e. in the margravate of Baden in Germany, situated 13 miles from Basel), not in his Swiss village of origin, the name was spelled with two t's.
The California Gold Rush article has been nominated for Featured article status. If you would like to comment on this nomination, please go here to leave your comment. To leave a comment on that page, click the [edit] link to the right of the title California Gold Rush. NorCalHistory 20:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
New Helvetia says he is from Liestal. -- 84.20.17.84 15:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Why are two of the categories for this article Mormon pioneers and History of the Latter Day Saint movement? Was he a mormon? Orangemarlin 01:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't be it be February 15,1803 for his birthdate for the headline on this page named The New World. 67.164.26.4 ( talk) 19:16, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, but if he was really born in Kandern, Baden-Württemberg then he was German - therefore he was German-American. Or are you from Kanada if you were born in Boston or Portland?? Or are you Mexican if you were born in San Diego?? See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandern — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.172.141.191 ( talk) 20:27, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
He was born in Kandern(Germany), close to Basel (Switzerland). But: His parents were swiss --> so he was also swiss citizen of Rüneberg in the Canton Basel-Land. He made his apprenticeship in Basel. See: http://www.videoportal.sf.tv/video?id=fc2cbb89-5c38-4365-99b5-7b8c396ace7a — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.155.114.95 ( talk) 21:56, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Germany and Switzerland had, and still have, the Jus sanguinis and not the Jus soli you may know from the U.S. Swiss citizenship is inherited; by Swiss law, you are considered Swiss if born in Germany (or any other country) to parents of Swiss citizenship, and vice versa the children of foreigners born in Germany are not considered Germans there. Therefore, Sutter was, according to Swiss and German custom, considered a Swiss born in Germany, but not a German at all. Gestumblindi ( talk) 00:42, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
he died "almost poor"? PurpleChez ( talk) 04:20, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Next time you read about gold around the world how many discoveries will there be in a row, before you realize that all it takes is one discovery, and all the rest just support your notion that gold already exists. 66.74.176.59 ( talk) 04:03, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
This article, at least, takes us to task for saying that Sutter "employed" the local Indians, providing a (sadly, uncited) quotation from one of Sutter's managers: "I had to lock the Indian women and men together in a large room to prevent them from returning to their homes in the mountains at night. Large numbers deserted during the daytime." There's also more there, though none of it specifically cited to solid sources. Someone working on this article should probably follow that up. - Jmabel | Talk 21:51, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Conversely, our article provides no citation for the statement that Indians were employed rather than enslaved. - Jmabel | Talk 21:53, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on John Sutter. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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The birthdates in the body text and the infobox are inconsistent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.1.170 ( talk) 02:49, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
An IP has been attempting to change the mentions of John Sutter to John Sutter Sr. The first attempt was unsourced, the second was justified by what another Wikiarticle uses, and the third by the title of a 150 year old book. Our article is titled "John Sutter" and the references cited in the article that I checked I did not check all of them) consistently use "John Sutter". with no Sr. If WP:COMMONNAME gives us the title "John Sutter" does it make any sense to change the article contents to use "John Sutter Sr."? Meters ( talk) 20:56, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
Nobody is born "Sr.", it's added after they name their son Jr., by writers who want to distinguish them. A book was published in 1867 while he was still alive calling him Sr. for this reason, and this proves the case. https://books.google.com/books/about/John_A_Sutter_Sr_and_His_Grants.html?id=dUkdHQAACAAJ John A. Sutter, Sr., and His Grants by John A. Laufkotter, Russell & Winterburn, 1867
So, the lead line should say "John Augustus Sutter (Sr.)".
== 74.95.112.141:
Even though most California school children know his name, he was a commercial failure who resented the fact that his son ( John Sutter Jr.) had succeded where he had failed.
Why was this placed in /Talk? maveric149
He was not a commercial failure.
Unfortunetely, I must disagree. Sutter's Fort failed, Sutter's Mill was not profitable, Sutter was not able to take advantage of Marshall's discovery of gold there, Suttervile faded into history, and I remember reading that Sutter died a poor man. Sounds like a commercial failure to me. maveric149
Having been raised in California, I can tell you that the required history texts for California history say Sutter died poor and always point out the historic irony that, despite his pivotal position in the beginnings of the Gold Rush, he made little money from it. JHK
Why this talk about Sutter having failed commercially and having died poor? Is wealth the main standard for appraising the life of a man? Actually Sutter was a great adventurer, a symbol of those early pioneers who travelled from Europe to America, crossed the continent and settled in California. He fled bankruptcy in Switzerland, okay - should have he gone to jail as it was the tradition in this time? He went on board an American ship, "Sully", which made the distance between Le Havre (France) and New York in 45 days - he arrived there on 14 July 1834. He went west, tried to trade on the Santa Fe trail and in Westport, but he was obviously not an entrepreneur. Except that he built an empire in the Sacramento Valley and played a decisive role in the shift of California from Mexico to the US. Yes, the discovery of gold was his tragedy, and it would take a whole book to explain why. But his life crossed the whole 19th century (from 1803 to 1880) and circumstances made that he met a lot of those men who played an important role in this part of US history (for example: John Fremont, Kit Carson). So he should be recognised perhaps not as a hero but at least as a unique character who took many risks to build a new life in the new world. In doing that he contributed to change the fate of California. And he died poor, yes, (but less than legend says), and so what? What a beautiful journey he made!
Text in question placed back in article.