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A good rule in writing about the past is first to read the latest academic research. A second rule is to assess one's sources according to reliability and, if using unreliable sources, to sound a warning.
Writing in October 2008 in the authoritative Oxford Dictionary of National Biography about the son John Fortescue, [1] the eminent historian E.W. Ives did not believe that the father John Fortescue was a soldier, let alone “Captain of Meaux”. We must conclude that he had good reasons for rejecting the often-repeated claims of previous writers.
In 1993, writing about the son John in the equally authoritative History of Parliament; [2] the historian Dr L.S.Woodger accepted the “Captain of Meaux”, giving as sources: CCR, 1422-9, p. 10; 1436-41, p. 418; CPR, 1422-9, p. 108; C219/11/1. All are government, legal or ecclesiastical records and therefore, as far as these things go, at the top level of reliability.
The same 1993 edition had an anonymous article about the son Henry, [3] which also accepts the “Captain of Meaux” and cites as sources: Vivian, Vis. Devon, 352-3; CCR, 1454-61, p. 448; CPR, 1467-76, p. 327; T. Fortescue, Ld. Clermont, Sir John Fortescue, ii. 42-45; Reg. Lacy ed. Hingeston-Randolph, i. 20; ii. 70. Into this list intrude two examples of useful sources which however contain unreliable material. One is heralds' visitations. These are notoriously inaccurate and need exhaustive cross-checking against more reliable records, if possible, to eliminate their extensive inventions and errors. Another is family histories which, unless stringently sourced to reliable and accessible documents, cannot be trusted.
Unfortunately, Eric Ives died in 2012 and we cannot know what led him to disbelieve the “Captain of Meaux” story, unless it is explained somewhere in his published writings. So two questions remain;
The second question has proved a puzzle to me. Internet searches in English and in French for the man in charge of Meaux after the execution of the Bastard of Vaurus, whether titled Captain/Capitaine, Governor/Gouverneur, Lieutenant, Castellan, Bailiff/Bailli, Seneschal/Sénéchal, or Constable/Connétable, have drawn blank.
Any thoughts Lobsterthermidor, Smalljim, or hchc2009? Clifford Mill ( talk) 11:22, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
References
Attempting to delve into the reason for Ives' disbelief would clearly be OR, so impossible.Uh? Looking for a publication by Ives where he expands on his statement in ODNB is exactly what a dedicated WP editor should do. I've tried a Google Scholar search but drawn a blank.
To distrust a well-researched family history written by a highly educated Victorian peer of the realm (Lord Clermont) is somewhat over-egging healthy scepticism.No. Apart from its age, getting on for 150 years, as a member of the family that he's writing about, his history cannot be considered to be a fully reliable source.
There's always one person who disagrees even with black and white facts, so that's to be expected. Some say the US astronauts never walked on the moon, or that 9/11 was done by the CIA. Let's get real.You're saying that Eric Ives was a crank?
On the wider point, the subject of history is not nearly so dependant on "up-to-date research" as are subjects in science. Once you have a reliable ancient written source, that's pretty much as good as it's going to get, especially on such an obscure topic.No! We have computers, the internet, forensic techniques, DNA analysis, and people digging up car-parks and sorting through long-forgotten boxes of documents – all of which have opened completely new avenues of research. And it continues to be published: see any volume of the Transactions of the Devonshire Association, for example. As the authors of a modern encyclopedia, we should be searching for recent sources for our articles, and if none are found we should make only very limited use of old unverified sources and make it clear to the readers that that is what we're basing our statements on. Or ...
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A good rule in writing about the past is first to read the latest academic research. A second rule is to assess one's sources according to reliability and, if using unreliable sources, to sound a warning.
Writing in October 2008 in the authoritative Oxford Dictionary of National Biography about the son John Fortescue, [1] the eminent historian E.W. Ives did not believe that the father John Fortescue was a soldier, let alone “Captain of Meaux”. We must conclude that he had good reasons for rejecting the often-repeated claims of previous writers.
In 1993, writing about the son John in the equally authoritative History of Parliament; [2] the historian Dr L.S.Woodger accepted the “Captain of Meaux”, giving as sources: CCR, 1422-9, p. 10; 1436-41, p. 418; CPR, 1422-9, p. 108; C219/11/1. All are government, legal or ecclesiastical records and therefore, as far as these things go, at the top level of reliability.
The same 1993 edition had an anonymous article about the son Henry, [3] which also accepts the “Captain of Meaux” and cites as sources: Vivian, Vis. Devon, 352-3; CCR, 1454-61, p. 448; CPR, 1467-76, p. 327; T. Fortescue, Ld. Clermont, Sir John Fortescue, ii. 42-45; Reg. Lacy ed. Hingeston-Randolph, i. 20; ii. 70. Into this list intrude two examples of useful sources which however contain unreliable material. One is heralds' visitations. These are notoriously inaccurate and need exhaustive cross-checking against more reliable records, if possible, to eliminate their extensive inventions and errors. Another is family histories which, unless stringently sourced to reliable and accessible documents, cannot be trusted.
Unfortunately, Eric Ives died in 2012 and we cannot know what led him to disbelieve the “Captain of Meaux” story, unless it is explained somewhere in his published writings. So two questions remain;
The second question has proved a puzzle to me. Internet searches in English and in French for the man in charge of Meaux after the execution of the Bastard of Vaurus, whether titled Captain/Capitaine, Governor/Gouverneur, Lieutenant, Castellan, Bailiff/Bailli, Seneschal/Sénéchal, or Constable/Connétable, have drawn blank.
Any thoughts Lobsterthermidor, Smalljim, or hchc2009? Clifford Mill ( talk) 11:22, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
References
Attempting to delve into the reason for Ives' disbelief would clearly be OR, so impossible.Uh? Looking for a publication by Ives where he expands on his statement in ODNB is exactly what a dedicated WP editor should do. I've tried a Google Scholar search but drawn a blank.
To distrust a well-researched family history written by a highly educated Victorian peer of the realm (Lord Clermont) is somewhat over-egging healthy scepticism.No. Apart from its age, getting on for 150 years, as a member of the family that he's writing about, his history cannot be considered to be a fully reliable source.
There's always one person who disagrees even with black and white facts, so that's to be expected. Some say the US astronauts never walked on the moon, or that 9/11 was done by the CIA. Let's get real.You're saying that Eric Ives was a crank?
On the wider point, the subject of history is not nearly so dependant on "up-to-date research" as are subjects in science. Once you have a reliable ancient written source, that's pretty much as good as it's going to get, especially on such an obscure topic.No! We have computers, the internet, forensic techniques, DNA analysis, and people digging up car-parks and sorting through long-forgotten boxes of documents – all of which have opened completely new avenues of research. And it continues to be published: see any volume of the Transactions of the Devonshire Association, for example. As the authors of a modern encyclopedia, we should be searching for recent sources for our articles, and if none are found we should make only very limited use of old unverified sources and make it clear to the readers that that is what we're basing our statements on. Or ...