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The paragraph under Pontiac's Rebellion states, "Amherst was summoned home, ostensibly so he could be consulted on future military plans in North America, and expected to be praised for his conquest of Canada but instead, once in London, was asked to account for the recent rebellion.[19] He was forced to defend his conduct, and faced complaints made by Sir William Johnson and George Croghan who successfully lobbied the Board of Trade leading to Amherst's removal.[20]" The citations given for these tidbits of info are O'Toole and Anderson, but no info is provided about their works or sources. For all we know they could be eight-year-olds. The titles of their works should be provided or this para removed. Hattrick ( talk) 10:00, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
I would recommend this very important piece of Amherst's biography be reinstated. There are several sources on this link which can be examined to test the veracity of the assertion that he did indeed order blankets to be infected:
Previously, the article mentioned at the 1763 incident as fact, when in fact the blanket exchange was at worst unintentional contamination of the natives which happened prior to the suggestion of intentional infection, as correspondence from Amherst and his subordinate documented. 66.195.102.82 ( talk) 20:54, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
This smacks of POV. There exists plenty of litterature that contends that Amherst DID in fact order Bouquet to hand out smallpox infected blankets, including Amherst's own letters. For example, in What is America (Ronald Wright), Wright quotes a letter by Amherst to Bouquet:"innoculate [infect] the Indians by means of blankets. as well as try Every other method that can serve to Extirpate this Exercable Race." (103). I dont understand your argument at all. Id like to see the entry you deleted to be put back.-- GoodandTrue ( talk) 16:33, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
I believe the article should not make a blanket assertion - pun intended. Howard Zinn is an unreliable source, no matter how many copies of his book have been sold. His influence over scholarship has been generally hurtful, by fueling a generation of writers who seek out ways to ruin reputations. For example, the link to the d'Errico article, even though it links to copies of letters, does not give sources to them which can be cited. Yet a careful reading shows that smallpox existed at Fort Pitt before Amherst got there, and there is no source which says that blankets were given out after he arrived. He may have approved the idea, in the abstract, but execution because of Amherst is something else. If it was done, why are there no sources from 1765 or 1770 to confirm it? It is just as likely that he saw smallpox had already spread and sending more blankets later was unnecessary. The article should reflect that the claim is more speculation than proven fact. Princetoniac ( talk) 18:17, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
I appreciate the citation of Daniel Paul's book, however, the term "white supremacist" would not be used by people who knew Amherst, or witnessed anything of the time. It is a term used by 20th century writers, and therefore a tertiary opinion. I submit that a simple Google search of Howard Zinn will show concerns about his objectivity among historians, (and the Zinn quote above is obvious as well) and objectivity is the goal here, yes? Princetoniac ( talk) 21:05, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
I am not going to edit the article now, but the evidence in The British, the Indians, and Smallpox: What Actually Happened at Fort Pitt in 1763?" Author: Philip Ranle http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/27774278.pdf?acceptTC=true seems to contradict some of what is in this article. The journals of Col. Trent, commander of the Pittsburgh militia contains a claim by Trent that he turned over to the Indians some smallpox contaminated items along with some rations on May 24, 1763. Summary timeline: 5/24/1763 Journal of William Trent "... we gave them two Blankets and an Handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect." 6/23/1763 Bouquet to Amherst, dated 23 June 1763 smallpox in Fort Pitt 7/13/1763 Colonel Henry Bouquet to General Amherst, dated 13 July 1763 discussion of smallpox blankets 7/16/1763 Amherst to Bouquet, dated 16 July 1763 Amherst's approval of Bouquet’s suggestion 7/26/1763 26 July 1763, Bouquet acknowledges Amherst's approval
However, there is no evidence that smallpox was spread subsequent to Amherst's approval of Bouquet's suggestion, and it appear that the suggestion was intended to get approval for actions already taken. The situation is complicated, and it is a matter of whether one wants to blame Amherst for events that he had nothing to do. Another matter is that there was no major outbreak of smallpox among the Indians around Pittsburgh that Summer; although there were some cases, and there was an outbreak in Pittsburgh, as evidenced by the materials given to the Indians in May.
My opinion is that Amherst had nothing to do with distributing contaminated blankets, but he appears to have found the idea worthy of consideration. Please read Philip Ranle's article, and see how it fits together. PLewicke ( talk) 19:07, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
I've removed the addition by Twobells which was added two days ago, here. The source in question does not establish the claim, suitably to me. The claim was, "there is no evidence to suggest the deliberate infection by Amherst or any other British soldier ever happened, rather the allegation was instead propaganda". In addition to being ungrammatical, this is quite POV pushing apparently, as the source does not even say anything about the allegation being propaganda. That seems to be original research or syntheses by Twobells here. The source does state that Amherst made some recommendations about using smallpox blankets as a tactic, and then says "There is no evidence to indicate any subsequent action by the British." What does this mean? It means that a source which is an essay on a book on global biosecurity has a chapter on history of biological warfare that briefly mentions Amherst and states that "there is no evidence". This does not to my satisfaction establish that there is no evidence in the universe and that no evidence will ever be found. To me, the source is not comprehensive enough or reliable enough on this question to establish that there is in fact no evidence to be found. And the POV pushing part of the statement is unacceptable in itself and unsourced. So i removed it. SageRad ( talk) 14:41, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Correspondence to Amherst dated 24th June however confirms that there was a smallpox outbreak at the fort on or before that date. The solution to the puzzle is simply that the commander at the fort, Captain Ecuyer had, had already acted independently well before Amherst made his suggestion in July. The journal of William Trent confirms that on 24th June (not May as often mis-reported) this was the date two blankets and a handkerchief from the smallpox hospital at Fort Pitt were handed over. So although the event ocurred it didn't happen because of Amherst's direction on the matter. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.127.51 ( talk) 13:14, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
(1) If Amherst gave Bouquet a written order to use the smallpox-infested blankets, how could that have been done without his knowledge?
(2) Brigadier (not Brigadere) General is the lowest grade of general officer--in the American system, a "one-star general." The senior officer in North America (General Officer Commanding, North America) was usually if not always a Major General (two stars in the modern US system). I find it unlikely that the Commander of Forces would be a brigadier. Amherst was GOC North America for a time, was he not? Has that position been confused with that of Commander of Forces? I think it's plausible that a brigadier might command in North America, but not in London. Is there confusion?
Terry J. Carter ( talk) 00:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Why do we spell the article name "Jeffrey Amherst," when he spelled his own name Jeffery Amherst? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Duckwariorrandom ( talk • contribs) 02:09, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Duckwariorrandom ( talk) 02:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Agreed, the redirect seems backwards. This page should be moved as the spelling is "Jeffery". Johndowning ( talk) 02:45, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Was it not Amherst who developed a more effective infantry formation for British troops in North America? I believe it was used by Wolfe, and sometimes incorectly credited to him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ben200 ( talk • contribs) 12:54, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 20:50, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
IP User, why would you blank all this good knowledge? I'd like to revert it back in. Would you do so, or would you please explain your edit? Thanks, kindly. SageRad ( talk) 22:12, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Jeffery Amherst, 1st Baron Amherst article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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|
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This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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The paragraph under Pontiac's Rebellion states, "Amherst was summoned home, ostensibly so he could be consulted on future military plans in North America, and expected to be praised for his conquest of Canada but instead, once in London, was asked to account for the recent rebellion.[19] He was forced to defend his conduct, and faced complaints made by Sir William Johnson and George Croghan who successfully lobbied the Board of Trade leading to Amherst's removal.[20]" The citations given for these tidbits of info are O'Toole and Anderson, but no info is provided about their works or sources. For all we know they could be eight-year-olds. The titles of their works should be provided or this para removed. Hattrick ( talk) 10:00, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
I would recommend this very important piece of Amherst's biography be reinstated. There are several sources on this link which can be examined to test the veracity of the assertion that he did indeed order blankets to be infected:
Previously, the article mentioned at the 1763 incident as fact, when in fact the blanket exchange was at worst unintentional contamination of the natives which happened prior to the suggestion of intentional infection, as correspondence from Amherst and his subordinate documented. 66.195.102.82 ( talk) 20:54, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
This smacks of POV. There exists plenty of litterature that contends that Amherst DID in fact order Bouquet to hand out smallpox infected blankets, including Amherst's own letters. For example, in What is America (Ronald Wright), Wright quotes a letter by Amherst to Bouquet:"innoculate [infect] the Indians by means of blankets. as well as try Every other method that can serve to Extirpate this Exercable Race." (103). I dont understand your argument at all. Id like to see the entry you deleted to be put back.-- GoodandTrue ( talk) 16:33, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
I believe the article should not make a blanket assertion - pun intended. Howard Zinn is an unreliable source, no matter how many copies of his book have been sold. His influence over scholarship has been generally hurtful, by fueling a generation of writers who seek out ways to ruin reputations. For example, the link to the d'Errico article, even though it links to copies of letters, does not give sources to them which can be cited. Yet a careful reading shows that smallpox existed at Fort Pitt before Amherst got there, and there is no source which says that blankets were given out after he arrived. He may have approved the idea, in the abstract, but execution because of Amherst is something else. If it was done, why are there no sources from 1765 or 1770 to confirm it? It is just as likely that he saw smallpox had already spread and sending more blankets later was unnecessary. The article should reflect that the claim is more speculation than proven fact. Princetoniac ( talk) 18:17, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
I appreciate the citation of Daniel Paul's book, however, the term "white supremacist" would not be used by people who knew Amherst, or witnessed anything of the time. It is a term used by 20th century writers, and therefore a tertiary opinion. I submit that a simple Google search of Howard Zinn will show concerns about his objectivity among historians, (and the Zinn quote above is obvious as well) and objectivity is the goal here, yes? Princetoniac ( talk) 21:05, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
I am not going to edit the article now, but the evidence in The British, the Indians, and Smallpox: What Actually Happened at Fort Pitt in 1763?" Author: Philip Ranle http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/27774278.pdf?acceptTC=true seems to contradict some of what is in this article. The journals of Col. Trent, commander of the Pittsburgh militia contains a claim by Trent that he turned over to the Indians some smallpox contaminated items along with some rations on May 24, 1763. Summary timeline: 5/24/1763 Journal of William Trent "... we gave them two Blankets and an Handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect." 6/23/1763 Bouquet to Amherst, dated 23 June 1763 smallpox in Fort Pitt 7/13/1763 Colonel Henry Bouquet to General Amherst, dated 13 July 1763 discussion of smallpox blankets 7/16/1763 Amherst to Bouquet, dated 16 July 1763 Amherst's approval of Bouquet’s suggestion 7/26/1763 26 July 1763, Bouquet acknowledges Amherst's approval
However, there is no evidence that smallpox was spread subsequent to Amherst's approval of Bouquet's suggestion, and it appear that the suggestion was intended to get approval for actions already taken. The situation is complicated, and it is a matter of whether one wants to blame Amherst for events that he had nothing to do. Another matter is that there was no major outbreak of smallpox among the Indians around Pittsburgh that Summer; although there were some cases, and there was an outbreak in Pittsburgh, as evidenced by the materials given to the Indians in May.
My opinion is that Amherst had nothing to do with distributing contaminated blankets, but he appears to have found the idea worthy of consideration. Please read Philip Ranle's article, and see how it fits together. PLewicke ( talk) 19:07, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
I've removed the addition by Twobells which was added two days ago, here. The source in question does not establish the claim, suitably to me. The claim was, "there is no evidence to suggest the deliberate infection by Amherst or any other British soldier ever happened, rather the allegation was instead propaganda". In addition to being ungrammatical, this is quite POV pushing apparently, as the source does not even say anything about the allegation being propaganda. That seems to be original research or syntheses by Twobells here. The source does state that Amherst made some recommendations about using smallpox blankets as a tactic, and then says "There is no evidence to indicate any subsequent action by the British." What does this mean? It means that a source which is an essay on a book on global biosecurity has a chapter on history of biological warfare that briefly mentions Amherst and states that "there is no evidence". This does not to my satisfaction establish that there is no evidence in the universe and that no evidence will ever be found. To me, the source is not comprehensive enough or reliable enough on this question to establish that there is in fact no evidence to be found. And the POV pushing part of the statement is unacceptable in itself and unsourced. So i removed it. SageRad ( talk) 14:41, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Correspondence to Amherst dated 24th June however confirms that there was a smallpox outbreak at the fort on or before that date. The solution to the puzzle is simply that the commander at the fort, Captain Ecuyer had, had already acted independently well before Amherst made his suggestion in July. The journal of William Trent confirms that on 24th June (not May as often mis-reported) this was the date two blankets and a handkerchief from the smallpox hospital at Fort Pitt were handed over. So although the event ocurred it didn't happen because of Amherst's direction on the matter. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.127.51 ( talk) 13:14, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
(1) If Amherst gave Bouquet a written order to use the smallpox-infested blankets, how could that have been done without his knowledge?
(2) Brigadier (not Brigadere) General is the lowest grade of general officer--in the American system, a "one-star general." The senior officer in North America (General Officer Commanding, North America) was usually if not always a Major General (two stars in the modern US system). I find it unlikely that the Commander of Forces would be a brigadier. Amherst was GOC North America for a time, was he not? Has that position been confused with that of Commander of Forces? I think it's plausible that a brigadier might command in North America, but not in London. Is there confusion?
Terry J. Carter ( talk) 00:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Why do we spell the article name "Jeffrey Amherst," when he spelled his own name Jeffery Amherst? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Duckwariorrandom ( talk • contribs) 02:09, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Duckwariorrandom ( talk) 02:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Agreed, the redirect seems backwards. This page should be moved as the spelling is "Jeffery". Johndowning ( talk) 02:45, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Was it not Amherst who developed a more effective infantry formation for British troops in North America? I believe it was used by Wolfe, and sometimes incorectly credited to him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ben200 ( talk • contribs) 12:54, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 20:50, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
IP User, why would you blank all this good knowledge? I'd like to revert it back in. Would you do so, or would you please explain your edit? Thanks, kindly. SageRad ( talk) 22:12, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:19, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
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