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Because I was looking for this information all over wikipedia, and the web, and couldn't find it anywhere. Some people (me included) are interested in how the fastest lap times / speeds have progressed over the years, and this table provides the information. Please help fill out details of bikes, precise lap times. Thanks! DMSchneider ( talk) 13:25, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Not only fastest laps, but why isn't there a list of winning riders/bikes, one for each year? Ideally for every category, but if not, then surely for the senior race. Aside from the World Championship section, some of the results are not even on Wikipedia. It needs to be like Monaco Grand Prix ("By year") or List of 24 Hours of Le Mans winners. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.145.187.21 ( talk) 21:55, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
The 2015 IOM TT event and race guide suggests that speed limits are in place over the Snaefell Mountain Road. "With the circuit being on ... The mountain section from Ramsey to Douglas is one way but speed limits are in place."
I asked: Does anyone know what is the nature of the speed limits in place?
-- do ncr am 22:02, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Specific sourcing is needed for all statistics in the article, in my opinion and per general Wikipedia rules. Personal observation is not a valid source for Wikipedia; we are supposed to follow what is reported elsewhere. I just updated the "Lap Records" section as an example of how I believe sourcing for a statistics table needs to be done. This article's information on lap records is current (thanks to many separate editors adding info), by the way, and is reporting better information than the IOM TT website page, which does not yet incorporate any 2015 results. What I did was add a "Sources" column, footnote the title of the column with a general sourcing statement (that all data in the table is from the IOMTT.COM webpage on lap records, except where otherwise noted). For each row not sourced from that (i.e. all the 2015 results), a separate footnote is needed and can be placed in the column. I provided a specific footnote for the 2015 lap record set by John McGuiness for the Senior TT and overall. Footnotes supporting the lap records in Lightweight TT, TT Zero, and Sidecar TT are needed, as indicated by "citation needed" tags for those rows. Could other editors please provide sources for those? And/or help in adding specific sourcing elsewhere in this article? -- do ncr am 19:08, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
In Wikipedia, sourcing is required. This article is not the personal fiefdom of any local expert who writes what he wants to without detailed referencing to reliable sources. I'm sorry, editor Plumstix, if you got the impression otherwise, but I am reverting your recent edits. Whether or not the information you added about 2015 results is accurate, what's more important here is changing the "culture" of this editing area. To editor Rocknrollmancer, thank you for your recent sourced contributions to the lede, stating accurately the most salient true information about the nature of Isle of Man TT racing: indeed it is most saliently known as "the most dangerous motorcycle road-race in the world." It just is. And that view cannot be suppressed any longer--as it was in 2014 when I understand you made the same changes--by the dominance of one editor with a narrow POV over this and related articles. No more "personal knowledge". To Plumstix and anyone else, I am sorry if you may perceive a superficial similarity between the previous main editor's perspective here, and my being assertive in this way now. There are some important differences, having to do with degree of respect for Wikipedia's core principles and its community and practices. Comments welcome. Also help sourcing content in the article, or removing it if it cannot be sourced, would be appreciated. -- do ncr am 06:11, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Shouldn't the article explain what entity or entities run and report on the TT races? Who owns the name of the race, and other marketing-related assets? Who incurs the financial costs and receives television-related revenues? There seems to be no clear statement yet in the article; I think there should be, probably in the "Description" section. From the IOMTT.COM website, I find at bottom of "Contact" page the following mentions:
That makes clear who is running the IOM website: Duke Marketing Ltd. Is the race owned by the government of the IOM, and administered by government agencies, or is the overall management let out by contract? How this is done may be known already by some editors and by some readers, and should not be the focus of this general article, but some such information should be provided, right? Comments welcome. -- do ncr am 19:23, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
As I stated somewhere back in November (?) 2014 during the concerted TT Course Articles for Deletion sequence, the IoM government in conjunction with the TV company/companies have (presumably) invested up-front money as part of a strategic business plan, with fixed-cameras, on-bike cameras and helicopters providing coverage, together with behind-the-scenes reporting and interviews, and as always, almost propganda-levels of promotion (not that I am against this as I am pro-Manx). Resultingly, the TT televsion commentators - one being a Manx-resident, former racer Steve Parrish - will, and do, mention any historic vantage point or landmark, hence the AfD sequence was particularly ill-advised and in Bad Faith, in that there is a consecutive, geographical sequence of historic, named areas; as I stated at the time, the deletion sequence citing notability as a catch-all was mis-applied, challenging WP:AGF in that articles for the consecutive landmarks around a 37-mile course had been established in Good Faith, and could not be randomly deleted, leaving Wikipedia with an incomplete sequence. This, in part, has now been addressed by the work-in-progress List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course; one unsupportive editor has caused massive disruption and down-time, requiring rectification in another way. Completely counter-productive, as any arguably-minor landmarks could have been merged, for example titled as High Street and High Road, Anyplace, Isle of Man.
Exactly which organisations financially benefit, and by how much and exactly when, given the assumed start-up costs, I imagine would be secret and sensitive business information and as such withheld. As part of long-term investigations into the corruption of a few related-articles involving History being re-written by Wikipedia, I made a Freedom of Information request for professional fees paid by the BBC TV Corporation, an arm of the UK Government, to those appearing on-camera giving anecdotal accounts in a pseudo-authorative manner, without any historical hard-copy corroboration. This was refused on an exemption to the UK FoI Act, as I expected it would be; I just needed it formalising for posterity and completeness of research (currently over two years on those topics). I surmise the IoM would be the same or worse where 'ownership' of once-traditional rights are concerned, involving PPFI (Public/Private Finance Initiatives), where governments privatise - through big business involving modern marketing and media - certain aspects of their 'normal' core financial activites.-- Rocknrollmancer ( talk) 13:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
This epitomises what happen when there are too many Indians and not enough chiefs. There are too many sections, it's almost a section a paragraph, a lot of what is said is repeated again and again, there is no logical order to the article (eg there is a section on TT history at the end of the article after the results!!?), and it's got no sense of style.
The intro is rubbish. First it says it was once a great race then it says its a dangerous race. Is that the best summation for more than a hundred years of racing?
I also notice as a violation of WP:NOTGUIDE, someone has added visitor info for this year's event. Why not add a few details about hotels or campsite while you're at it?
In conclusion this article needs to be rewritten by someone who knows the subject and has a clear sense of editorial judgement. I'm no editor but I gave up because it's just unreadable. Which is a pity because the TT is a fascinating subject. How many other readers are turned off by this page's overall crapiness? :-( 81.129.95.249 ( talk) 17:18, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
The business name of the International Isle of Man TT Motor-Cycle Races has always been owned by the Auto-Cycle Union. The commercial or sporting franchise is managed by ACU Events Ltd which is a company owned in full by the Auto-Cycle Union. The Isle of Man TT Races has a large number of commercial and other sponsors and supported by large number of organisations which some of these companies have to undergo a formal tendering procedure.
The Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom.
It was a previous consensus by editors that all historic racing information would be transferred to the relevant year page.
In respect to the edits of the 15th June 2015 in respect to the Isle of Man TT article. The Isle of Man TT is not the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race’ as it is technically a motor-cycle time-trial. To answer the issue more directly, the Isle of Man TT is statistically less dangerous than other motor-sport events due to the exceptionally very high mileage covered by competitors during the event. There is also the issue of inadvertent bias, lack of neutral point of view WP:NPOV and overall bias as only the Isle of Man TT races have only been described as the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race.’ There has been no comparison made statistically or otherwise, when compared to other motor-sport events or other different types of sports and races. It is incorrect to describe the Isle of Man TT as ‘the most dangerous motor-cycle race’ because “It just is” claim and verification is required for this under Wikipedia rules. The Manx Grand Prix where there is a direct comparison as the same Snaefell Mountain Course is used as a venue is “saliently” statistically more dangerous than the Isle of Man TT races. The number of fatal accidents per race is 0.31 for the Manx Grand Prix and 0.23 per race when compared to the Isle of Man TT.
The Isle of Man TT is not the oldest motor-cycle race and the reference on page 120 of the Guinness Motorsport Fact Book makes no reference to this detail. This is a cut and paste reference placed incorrectly.
The John McGuinness quotation [2] is actually a newspaper report about a man that that was fined for removing his daughter from school and cannot support the independent verifiability for the Isle of Man TT required by any Wikipedia article and is also a questionable source. WP:N It is not “….the most dangerous thing that I do….” as John McGuinness is a former bricklayer and statistically the construction industry has a very high rate of injury and fatal accidents when compared to other occupations. Also, as a former Morecambe Bay Cockle-Picker this occupation has been described as one of the most dangerous occupations in the UK . This quotation may also be seen as further inadvertent bias as no other alternative view has been provided. WP:NOTRELIABLE The Metro citation of May 2013 mentions the Isle of Man TT competitor Guy Martin and he has given other alternate opinion’s include this quotation about the danger of the Isle of Man TT and he has said:- “Let us manager the ‘danger.’ Go back to mowing your lawn on a Sunday morning.” It is unclear what is the origin of this quote (perhaps the documentary movie ‘Closer to the Edge’) and has been repeated by Guy Martin in a number of different forms.
The Metro article May 2013 states that the Isle of Man TT is “ ….without doubt, the most dangerous race on the planet.” The ‘burden of proof’ required by Wikipedia lies with the editor adding or removing material. Again, the Isle of Man TT it is not a motor-cycle race but a motor-cycle time-trail and does not fully explain the claim as Wikipedia requires a fact to be verified with a citation and also the citation demonstrate verification. WP:V WP:PROVEIT Also, the statement does not say that the Isle of Man TT is the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race’ only that it is “….the most dangerous race” which is a comparison with other sports. The Metro article then states that; “Never mind just motorsport, this is probably the deadliest of any sporting event.” This a contradiction rather than a clarification of verification required by Wikipedia as “….most….” in the first claim is then replaced with “…..is probably….” in the second claim. It is again unclear which citation supports which fact as required by Wikipedia. WP:V WP:PROVEIT
The Guardian citation June 2007 states “The most dangerous sporting event of earth ?” This is a rhetorical question rather than an actual claim. This then followed by “The Isle of Man TT race, 100 years old this week, has claimed 223 lives” It does not state that it is the “most dangerous motor-cycle race” and then contradicts the initial claim in the lead title as it “….could well be….(the most dangerous sporting event on earth.) ” rather than it is the “most” dangerous sporting event. Again the number of fatal accidents to competitors is quoted as a “tragic statistic” in the Guardian citation which is currently 141 and not 223 and again is subject to mistake and error . It is does not explain why the event is dangerous or why the event is the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race.’ After carefully reading the article it is difficult to analyse for the purposes of verification required by Wikipedia due to the ‘journalistic hyperbole,’ ‘outrage journalism’ and “tub-thumping rhetoric. ” The Guardian citation of June 2007 is unclear for the verification required by Wikipedia and may have described the reason for the “tragic statistic” as “dumb luck” rather than the event being “dangerous.” It is again unclear which part of the citation supports which fact as required by Wikipedia. The reference also fails to state that the Isle of Man TT Races have also been held on the St Johns Short Course, Clypse Course and the Billown Circuit without any fatal accidents to competitors.
The Canadian CTV News citation of May 2014 states that “Montreal man to compete in world’s most dangerous motorcycle race” WP:NOTRELIABLE and does not state that this referring to the Isle of Man TT Race. The CTV News citation then states “….is considered the most dangerous motorcycle race in the world” and then again the Isle of Man TT race is not directly stated and then the article contradicts itself by changing from the “….most….” to “….is considered the most….” WP:VERIFY Again, there is no explanation for the claim other than “considered” which is another example of inadvertent bias. What is “considered” opinion and why non – “considered” opinion not been included ? What are the other most dangerous motor-cycle events listed numbers 1 to 10 ???? In retrospect, “considered” opinion would “saliently” suggest that one of the most dangerous motor-cycle race is the Tandragee 100 Races in Northern Ireland. This internet reference [27] when compared to motor-cycle racing in Northern Ireland the Isle of Man TT is "....like a cushy ride in the park...It’s called Irish road racing and here’s why it’s the real king of danger...." Other motor-cycle events that in “considered” opinion would be more “dangerous” than the Isle of Man TT Races in no particular order include the Swiss Grand Prix at Bremgarten Circuit, Ulster Grand Prix (pre-war Clady Circuit and Dundrod circuit), Belgian Grand Prix (Spa Francorchamps pre-war), Solitude Gp, Eifelrennen Gp ( Nürburgring - Südschleife), Dutch TT (pre-War van Drethe circuit), German GP (pre-war Sachensring and Nürburgring - Nordschleife) and the North West 200 (pre-war and post-war period up to 1979). Other “dangerous” motor-cycle races would include the pre-war Swedish Gp and the post-war Yugoslavian GP and the latter event was also boycotted by in 1973 by competitors in the FIM World Motor-Cycling along with the Isle of Man TT. The Canadian CTV News citation of May 2014 then states that the Isle of Man TT has “….claimed the lives of 240 bikers” and this is unclear if this fatal accidents to competitors and is incorrect as again the current number is 141. WP:VERIFY
In comparison, the Time citation of August 2014 does not describe the Isle of Man TT Races as the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race’ as it describes the event as “perhaps the most dangerous” or “one of the most dangerous.” races rather than ‘ the most dangerous motor-cycle race.’ The Time citation also mentions that two fatal accidents to competitors occurred which is correct and the reference to the fatal accident to a “field marshal” (?) is not correct. A reference to a fatal road traffic accident is made. However, the number of fatal and non-fatal public road traffic accidents (RTA) at the Isle of Man TT has fallen significantly from 2004 when compared to the period 1985-2003.
The Mirror citation of June 2015 has as headline of “The Isle of Men: The World’s Deadliest Race” and this is an inaccurate description of the Isle of Man TT Race and fails the criteria for independent notability required by Wikipedia WP:N . However, it then describes the Isle of Man TT as “the world’s most dangerous motorcycle event” (ie again, not the actual Isle of Man TT Races) as the “most bizarre conditions for motorcyclists.” The explanation for this is an unsubstantiated claim is that motor-cyclists ( ie non-competitors (?) ) “were forced to dodge animals on the winding roads.” WP:NOTRELIABLE
The New Zealand citation from Fairfax Media August 2011 has a title “The deadliest Race” (again not mentioning the Isle of Man TT or giving an explanation for verification required by Wikipedia). It then states the Isle of Man TT as the “world’s most prestigious motorbike race” and not the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race.’ The last paragraph of the Fairfax Media citation then end with the claim of “Death is inextricably part of the TT's appeal” and with Wikipedia rules that this citation should be considered a highly questionable source. WP:NOTRELIABLE WP:VERIFY
This discussion follows the BRD policy WP:BRD which is an is an optional method of reaching consensus. The issue in regard to the name was not part of the original BRD discussion which was about resolving the issue of independent notability WP:N for the article and the disputed citation of edit 10:40, 16 July 2015 by editor User:Rocknrollmancer which is now an unusable internet dead-link. The article name and the time-trial format are not disputed in this BRD discussion.
The time-trail format was chosen by the Auto-Cycle Union in 1907 for the first International Auto-Cycle Tourist Trophy race due to the emphasis on ‘touring’ rather than ‘racing’ motor-cycles and also due to the problems with extensive cheating by competitors at the International Cup Races. The time-trial format was in common use at the time and may have been a condition of acceptance by the IoM local authorities for approval for the 1904 Gordon Bennett Elimination Trial and the 1905 Tourist Trophy Races for automobiles held in the Isle of Man after the disastrous Continental City to City races.
The choice of the early Highroads Course or Four Inch Course for automobiles or the short St John's Short Course in 1907 for motor-cycles may have been selected along with use of the time-trial format to actually discourage ‘racing’ between competitors along with problems with dust on dirt roads. The use of the time-trial format prevents racing collisions between competitors at the start of a race such as the 250cc motor-cycle race at the 1973 Italian Grand Prix. The time-trail format is also used to prevent collisions between competitors being lapped by the race leader’s and a seeding system was introduced for the 1959 Isle of Man TT races. The recent reduction at the Isle of Man TT Races since 2008 of grid size, the increase of the qualification time and racing in qualification order has been used to create separation in the time-trial format between competitors to reduce ‘racing’ and collisions between competitors. There is a difference between racing against the clock in a time-trail format and ‘racing’ between competitors created by a ‘mass-start.’ The short-circuit style ‘racing’ at the Isle of Man TT and Manx Grand Prix races is actively discouraged through threats of exclusion, fines and endorsements to racing licences. The problems of ‘racing’ between competitors and a flawed application of a time-trial format can be seen by the fatal accident to works Ferrari driver Alfonso de Portago at the 1957 Mille Miglia.
The issues of the BRD discussion were to correct information which Wikipedia allow in respect to the process of independent verifiability WP:V The incorrect use of citations is not permitted by Wikipedia and the burden of ‘proof’ lies with any editor adding or removing text. WP:BURDEN Any text additions without citations will be challenged and removed. WP:V The comments of the edit 11:37, 10 February 2017 accurately identify that there are sources which give a different point of view to the inaccurate News.com.au citation of the 8th July 2015 and the correct process is to cover all different points of view in perhaps a ‘culture’ or safety section which is a correct application of the BRD process.( talk)20:15, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
News.com.au citation 8th July 2015
The issue with the News.co.au citation of the 8th July 2015 is that the author of the article may have confused the total (2016) number of 143 fatal accidents to competitors for the Isle of Man TT Races with the completely separate 2015 total number of 246 fatal accidents to the competitors for the Isle of Man TT (Mountain) Course which also included fatal accidents at the very separate Manx Grand Prix races held at different time of year. Therefore the News.co.au article and citation of the 8th July 2015 does not fulfil the Wikipedia rules of independent verifiability for the quotation. WP:V
The current 2016 total of fatal accidents to competitors is 252 for the Isle of Man TT (Mountain) Course which includes 143 fatal accidents to competitors during the Isle of Man TT races and 108 fatal accidents to competitors during the very separate Manx Grand Prix now part of the Isle of Man TT Festival of Motor-Cycling including the new Isle of Man Classic TT races. The total of fatal accidents for the Isle of Man TT Races for 2016 event is 143 fatal accidents to competitors, 2 fatal accidents spectators, 1 fatal accident race marshal, 2 fatal accidents non-competitive parade lap, 1 fatal accident unofficial testing, 2 race marshals fatal road traffic accident on public roads, 1 fatal road traffic accident TT Travelling Marshall on public roads, 1 fatal accident to competitor unspecified on public roads and 1 further undeclared fatal road traffic to a race marshal on public roads with a total of 154 fatal accidents for the Isle of Man TT races.
The News.co.au citation of the 8th July 2015 very clear states;- “…..the Isle of Man TT (Tourist Trophy) Race has seen more fatalities than any other motorcycle race — albeit in 100 years…..” and the same citation refers to “246 killed.” The News.com.au citation of the 8th July 2015 states that;- “ Many of the 246 killed in the race were professionals taking part in the fastest division, the Senior TT” and then the News.co.au citation then clarifies the situation and states that;- “But others were amateurs, who compete on the 60km Snaefell Mountain Course on “Mad Sunday”, in the middle of the two-week event.”
The reverted edit summary of 19:38, 7 February 2017 [34] by editor User:doncram states;- “undo whitewashing about deaths, again. Article is clear that 143 deaths are of competitors and that total is 246.” The News.com article clearly states “246 killed,” but nowhere in the article can it be found that it states “143 deaths” which the edit summary of 19:38, 7 February 2017 refers to and again stating the edit summary for the article of 19:38, 7 February 2017 that ;- “….Article is clear that 143 deaths are competitors….” The “143 deaths are competitors” is the current 2016 total and not the total at the time of writing of the article in on the 8th July 2015 when the total would have been 139 fatal accidents to competitors during the Isle of Man TT Races.
Neither of these facts of either ‘139’ or ‘141’ fatal accidents to competitors for the Isle of Man TT Races are stated anywhere in the citation from the article from News.com.au. dated 8th July 2015 and Wikipedia is very clear that in regard to independent verifiability WP:V that;- “In Wikipedia, verifiability means that other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source…. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it….” The article News.co.au does not state the correct reason for the remaining 107 fatalities and the article states in the fifth paragraph that;- “…..1970, six competitors lost their lives, with another racer perishing during the island’s Manx Grand Prix later the same year” and very incorrectly refers not to the Manx Grand Prix races but to;- “…..But others were amateurs, who compete on the 60km Snaefell Mountain Course on “Mad Sunday”, in the middle of the two-week event.” Fatal road traffic accidents (RTA) on open public roads during the accident reporting period of the Isle of Man TT Races by the Isle of Man Police Constabulary including ‘Mad Sunday’ should not be considered to be included in the total number of fatal accidents to competitors during the Isle of Man TT Races as suggested by the Newscom.au article of the 8th July 2015. Again the article clearly fails the process of independent verifiability WP:V and Wikipedia does not permit the synthesis of sources WP:SYN or Original Research WP:OR.
Graham Walker Article (1954) titled “A Cloud over the Mountain ? Comment on a Controversial TT Topic”
An alternative point of view to be considered is shown by an article in the 1954 Isle of Man TT programme written by Graham Walker a former Isle of Man TT winner, pre-war European Grand Prix competitor, BBC broadcaster and journalist. The article titled;- “A Cloud over the Mountain ? Comment on a Controversial TT Topic” written by Graham Walker as a Consulting Editor of the ‘Motor Cycling’ Magazine contains a number of comments about relative safety and danger at the Isle of Man TT Races. The article written by Graham Walker for the 1954 Isle of Man TT programme states that; “….on a rider-mile basis more fatal accidents occur on Continental circuits than in the Isle of Man, but that details of these accidents are seldom published in British newspaper's….” Any current Isle of Man TT citation or quotation not referring to the historic much lower “….rider-mile basis….” for the Isle of Man TT rate of fatal accidents may itself be unfortunately biased WP:BIAS or not offering a neutral point of view WP:NPOV as suggested by other Wikipedia editors. The historic much lower “….rider-mile basis….” rate of fatal accidents for the Isle of Man TT is the view stated by the Isle of Man TT race organiser as recently as the 2015 and 2016 Isle of Man TT Races.
Summary for BRD discussion
Any single citation or article which refers to the Isle of Man TT Races as the most “dangerous or deadliest race,” does not offer a neutral point of view WP:NPOV as required Wikipedia rules. As suggested previously with edit of the 20:15, 13 February 2017 [35] the correct process for Wikipedia is to cover all different points of view in perhaps a ‘culture’ or 'safety' section including the point of view suggested by the graham Walker article (1954) and the same the views of the Clerk of Course (2016) which is a correct application of the BRD process. agljones( talk)13:02, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Disputed
For purposes of clarification for other editors, the
Isle of Man TT Races and the
Manx Grand Prix are two separate events. For 2017, the total number of fatal accidents for competitors is 146 for the Isle of Man TT Races. The total number of fatal accidents to competitors for the Isle of Man TT (Mountain) Course is 255.
agljones(
talk)19:31, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
In this edit i just removed overly promotional and bureaucratic content from the lede paragraph. In addition I corrected the wording to avoid false claim that the race has been run annually since 1907, which is contradicted by the article further below. Some of the bureaucratic stuff could possibly be relevant to the article, and could be restored somewhere, but not in the lede. Also there is a citation supposedly supporting an assertion that this is the most prestigious event of all kinds in the universe, ever. Perhaps the source does say something worth quoting, in a quote, but we don't allow over-statements to be made in Wikipedia's voice. Some puffery is allowed and is even appropriate in the lede, in my view, but what was there was not appropriate. -- do ncr am 14:28, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
I have removed a reference added by seemingly an American Orangecones in this change, 18 April 2017.
The source (Auto Overload - now at Facebook) is deadlinked, can be seen here at Wayback. Note the amateur, improper use of capitalisation throughout the headlines shown.
A possible earlier source is at this Italian forum, but I'm not prepared to waste any more time on it.
This corner depicted is no point on the TT course and from the advertising (Fairyhouse) may be a location in Ireland. The caption does not state during TT races, and there is no way to conclude it is even a TT rider who was run-over at another circuit
This should never have been added and is basically irresponsible, not to mention raw URL/ un-formatted.
These sources breach WP:RS, and WP:SYNTH in adding it to the TT race article. Flagged up by Agljones, just this one alone took me 30 minutes (OK, casually, having breakfast (brunch) and watching MotoGP free practice).-- Rocknrollmancer ( talk) 12:49, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Orangecones ( talk) 03:46, 30 October 2017 (UTC) Thank you Rocknrollmancer you are correct and it's been instructional and helpful for me too....
I've just transferred most of the lede to the main article, but for some reason, there isn't a contents box. Perhaps someone could correct this. Thanks. Valetude ( talk) 23:21, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
Both the 2001 and 2020 events didn't happen, and so are not notable enough for separate articles with no content about them. Probably worth a mention (few sentences) somewhere in the main article that these were cancelled, but neither 2001 or 2020 event passes WP:GNG. Joseph 2302 ( talk) 14:45, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
None of the articles on any of the "Tourist Trophies" explains the name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DF:974B:4259:996A:894E:B553:598B ( talk) 18:55, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
References
I saw in Revision history that an inexperienced editor, SunflowerYuri, is responsible for a lot of red deletions recently, such as: ...this paragraph was outdated so I fixed it, I had to remove a bunch of sources that were way too outdated to be relevant.
Major deletions need to be discussed first - this is normal Wikiquette.
I have posted at the editor's Talk page, but needs to be annotated here. Credit is due for the edit summaries. I don't have time available to fix such deletions, or even to read through them. 82.13.47.210 ( talk) 01:39, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
When editing a few minutes ago, I tried to add a clickable link to Wikimedia Commons in the edit summary which didn't work, targeting an En-Wiki page. Interested parties can see the deleted text and edit summary comments in this simple link. 82.13.47.210 ( talk) 18:52, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
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Because I was looking for this information all over wikipedia, and the web, and couldn't find it anywhere. Some people (me included) are interested in how the fastest lap times / speeds have progressed over the years, and this table provides the information. Please help fill out details of bikes, precise lap times. Thanks! DMSchneider ( talk) 13:25, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Not only fastest laps, but why isn't there a list of winning riders/bikes, one for each year? Ideally for every category, but if not, then surely for the senior race. Aside from the World Championship section, some of the results are not even on Wikipedia. It needs to be like Monaco Grand Prix ("By year") or List of 24 Hours of Le Mans winners. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.145.187.21 ( talk) 21:55, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
The 2015 IOM TT event and race guide suggests that speed limits are in place over the Snaefell Mountain Road. "With the circuit being on ... The mountain section from Ramsey to Douglas is one way but speed limits are in place."
I asked: Does anyone know what is the nature of the speed limits in place?
-- do ncr am 22:02, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Specific sourcing is needed for all statistics in the article, in my opinion and per general Wikipedia rules. Personal observation is not a valid source for Wikipedia; we are supposed to follow what is reported elsewhere. I just updated the "Lap Records" section as an example of how I believe sourcing for a statistics table needs to be done. This article's information on lap records is current (thanks to many separate editors adding info), by the way, and is reporting better information than the IOM TT website page, which does not yet incorporate any 2015 results. What I did was add a "Sources" column, footnote the title of the column with a general sourcing statement (that all data in the table is from the IOMTT.COM webpage on lap records, except where otherwise noted). For each row not sourced from that (i.e. all the 2015 results), a separate footnote is needed and can be placed in the column. I provided a specific footnote for the 2015 lap record set by John McGuiness for the Senior TT and overall. Footnotes supporting the lap records in Lightweight TT, TT Zero, and Sidecar TT are needed, as indicated by "citation needed" tags for those rows. Could other editors please provide sources for those? And/or help in adding specific sourcing elsewhere in this article? -- do ncr am 19:08, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
In Wikipedia, sourcing is required. This article is not the personal fiefdom of any local expert who writes what he wants to without detailed referencing to reliable sources. I'm sorry, editor Plumstix, if you got the impression otherwise, but I am reverting your recent edits. Whether or not the information you added about 2015 results is accurate, what's more important here is changing the "culture" of this editing area. To editor Rocknrollmancer, thank you for your recent sourced contributions to the lede, stating accurately the most salient true information about the nature of Isle of Man TT racing: indeed it is most saliently known as "the most dangerous motorcycle road-race in the world." It just is. And that view cannot be suppressed any longer--as it was in 2014 when I understand you made the same changes--by the dominance of one editor with a narrow POV over this and related articles. No more "personal knowledge". To Plumstix and anyone else, I am sorry if you may perceive a superficial similarity between the previous main editor's perspective here, and my being assertive in this way now. There are some important differences, having to do with degree of respect for Wikipedia's core principles and its community and practices. Comments welcome. Also help sourcing content in the article, or removing it if it cannot be sourced, would be appreciated. -- do ncr am 06:11, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Shouldn't the article explain what entity or entities run and report on the TT races? Who owns the name of the race, and other marketing-related assets? Who incurs the financial costs and receives television-related revenues? There seems to be no clear statement yet in the article; I think there should be, probably in the "Description" section. From the IOMTT.COM website, I find at bottom of "Contact" page the following mentions:
That makes clear who is running the IOM website: Duke Marketing Ltd. Is the race owned by the government of the IOM, and administered by government agencies, or is the overall management let out by contract? How this is done may be known already by some editors and by some readers, and should not be the focus of this general article, but some such information should be provided, right? Comments welcome. -- do ncr am 19:23, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
As I stated somewhere back in November (?) 2014 during the concerted TT Course Articles for Deletion sequence, the IoM government in conjunction with the TV company/companies have (presumably) invested up-front money as part of a strategic business plan, with fixed-cameras, on-bike cameras and helicopters providing coverage, together with behind-the-scenes reporting and interviews, and as always, almost propganda-levels of promotion (not that I am against this as I am pro-Manx). Resultingly, the TT televsion commentators - one being a Manx-resident, former racer Steve Parrish - will, and do, mention any historic vantage point or landmark, hence the AfD sequence was particularly ill-advised and in Bad Faith, in that there is a consecutive, geographical sequence of historic, named areas; as I stated at the time, the deletion sequence citing notability as a catch-all was mis-applied, challenging WP:AGF in that articles for the consecutive landmarks around a 37-mile course had been established in Good Faith, and could not be randomly deleted, leaving Wikipedia with an incomplete sequence. This, in part, has now been addressed by the work-in-progress List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course; one unsupportive editor has caused massive disruption and down-time, requiring rectification in another way. Completely counter-productive, as any arguably-minor landmarks could have been merged, for example titled as High Street and High Road, Anyplace, Isle of Man.
Exactly which organisations financially benefit, and by how much and exactly when, given the assumed start-up costs, I imagine would be secret and sensitive business information and as such withheld. As part of long-term investigations into the corruption of a few related-articles involving History being re-written by Wikipedia, I made a Freedom of Information request for professional fees paid by the BBC TV Corporation, an arm of the UK Government, to those appearing on-camera giving anecdotal accounts in a pseudo-authorative manner, without any historical hard-copy corroboration. This was refused on an exemption to the UK FoI Act, as I expected it would be; I just needed it formalising for posterity and completeness of research (currently over two years on those topics). I surmise the IoM would be the same or worse where 'ownership' of once-traditional rights are concerned, involving PPFI (Public/Private Finance Initiatives), where governments privatise - through big business involving modern marketing and media - certain aspects of their 'normal' core financial activites.-- Rocknrollmancer ( talk) 13:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
This epitomises what happen when there are too many Indians and not enough chiefs. There are too many sections, it's almost a section a paragraph, a lot of what is said is repeated again and again, there is no logical order to the article (eg there is a section on TT history at the end of the article after the results!!?), and it's got no sense of style.
The intro is rubbish. First it says it was once a great race then it says its a dangerous race. Is that the best summation for more than a hundred years of racing?
I also notice as a violation of WP:NOTGUIDE, someone has added visitor info for this year's event. Why not add a few details about hotels or campsite while you're at it?
In conclusion this article needs to be rewritten by someone who knows the subject and has a clear sense of editorial judgement. I'm no editor but I gave up because it's just unreadable. Which is a pity because the TT is a fascinating subject. How many other readers are turned off by this page's overall crapiness? :-( 81.129.95.249 ( talk) 17:18, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
The business name of the International Isle of Man TT Motor-Cycle Races has always been owned by the Auto-Cycle Union. The commercial or sporting franchise is managed by ACU Events Ltd which is a company owned in full by the Auto-Cycle Union. The Isle of Man TT Races has a large number of commercial and other sponsors and supported by large number of organisations which some of these companies have to undergo a formal tendering procedure.
The Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom.
It was a previous consensus by editors that all historic racing information would be transferred to the relevant year page.
In respect to the edits of the 15th June 2015 in respect to the Isle of Man TT article. The Isle of Man TT is not the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race’ as it is technically a motor-cycle time-trial. To answer the issue more directly, the Isle of Man TT is statistically less dangerous than other motor-sport events due to the exceptionally very high mileage covered by competitors during the event. There is also the issue of inadvertent bias, lack of neutral point of view WP:NPOV and overall bias as only the Isle of Man TT races have only been described as the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race.’ There has been no comparison made statistically or otherwise, when compared to other motor-sport events or other different types of sports and races. It is incorrect to describe the Isle of Man TT as ‘the most dangerous motor-cycle race’ because “It just is” claim and verification is required for this under Wikipedia rules. The Manx Grand Prix where there is a direct comparison as the same Snaefell Mountain Course is used as a venue is “saliently” statistically more dangerous than the Isle of Man TT races. The number of fatal accidents per race is 0.31 for the Manx Grand Prix and 0.23 per race when compared to the Isle of Man TT.
The Isle of Man TT is not the oldest motor-cycle race and the reference on page 120 of the Guinness Motorsport Fact Book makes no reference to this detail. This is a cut and paste reference placed incorrectly.
The John McGuinness quotation [2] is actually a newspaper report about a man that that was fined for removing his daughter from school and cannot support the independent verifiability for the Isle of Man TT required by any Wikipedia article and is also a questionable source. WP:N It is not “….the most dangerous thing that I do….” as John McGuinness is a former bricklayer and statistically the construction industry has a very high rate of injury and fatal accidents when compared to other occupations. Also, as a former Morecambe Bay Cockle-Picker this occupation has been described as one of the most dangerous occupations in the UK . This quotation may also be seen as further inadvertent bias as no other alternative view has been provided. WP:NOTRELIABLE The Metro citation of May 2013 mentions the Isle of Man TT competitor Guy Martin and he has given other alternate opinion’s include this quotation about the danger of the Isle of Man TT and he has said:- “Let us manager the ‘danger.’ Go back to mowing your lawn on a Sunday morning.” It is unclear what is the origin of this quote (perhaps the documentary movie ‘Closer to the Edge’) and has been repeated by Guy Martin in a number of different forms.
The Metro article May 2013 states that the Isle of Man TT is “ ….without doubt, the most dangerous race on the planet.” The ‘burden of proof’ required by Wikipedia lies with the editor adding or removing material. Again, the Isle of Man TT it is not a motor-cycle race but a motor-cycle time-trail and does not fully explain the claim as Wikipedia requires a fact to be verified with a citation and also the citation demonstrate verification. WP:V WP:PROVEIT Also, the statement does not say that the Isle of Man TT is the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race’ only that it is “….the most dangerous race” which is a comparison with other sports. The Metro article then states that; “Never mind just motorsport, this is probably the deadliest of any sporting event.” This a contradiction rather than a clarification of verification required by Wikipedia as “….most….” in the first claim is then replaced with “…..is probably….” in the second claim. It is again unclear which citation supports which fact as required by Wikipedia. WP:V WP:PROVEIT
The Guardian citation June 2007 states “The most dangerous sporting event of earth ?” This is a rhetorical question rather than an actual claim. This then followed by “The Isle of Man TT race, 100 years old this week, has claimed 223 lives” It does not state that it is the “most dangerous motor-cycle race” and then contradicts the initial claim in the lead title as it “….could well be….(the most dangerous sporting event on earth.) ” rather than it is the “most” dangerous sporting event. Again the number of fatal accidents to competitors is quoted as a “tragic statistic” in the Guardian citation which is currently 141 and not 223 and again is subject to mistake and error . It is does not explain why the event is dangerous or why the event is the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race.’ After carefully reading the article it is difficult to analyse for the purposes of verification required by Wikipedia due to the ‘journalistic hyperbole,’ ‘outrage journalism’ and “tub-thumping rhetoric. ” The Guardian citation of June 2007 is unclear for the verification required by Wikipedia and may have described the reason for the “tragic statistic” as “dumb luck” rather than the event being “dangerous.” It is again unclear which part of the citation supports which fact as required by Wikipedia. The reference also fails to state that the Isle of Man TT Races have also been held on the St Johns Short Course, Clypse Course and the Billown Circuit without any fatal accidents to competitors.
The Canadian CTV News citation of May 2014 states that “Montreal man to compete in world’s most dangerous motorcycle race” WP:NOTRELIABLE and does not state that this referring to the Isle of Man TT Race. The CTV News citation then states “….is considered the most dangerous motorcycle race in the world” and then again the Isle of Man TT race is not directly stated and then the article contradicts itself by changing from the “….most….” to “….is considered the most….” WP:VERIFY Again, there is no explanation for the claim other than “considered” which is another example of inadvertent bias. What is “considered” opinion and why non – “considered” opinion not been included ? What are the other most dangerous motor-cycle events listed numbers 1 to 10 ???? In retrospect, “considered” opinion would “saliently” suggest that one of the most dangerous motor-cycle race is the Tandragee 100 Races in Northern Ireland. This internet reference [27] when compared to motor-cycle racing in Northern Ireland the Isle of Man TT is "....like a cushy ride in the park...It’s called Irish road racing and here’s why it’s the real king of danger...." Other motor-cycle events that in “considered” opinion would be more “dangerous” than the Isle of Man TT Races in no particular order include the Swiss Grand Prix at Bremgarten Circuit, Ulster Grand Prix (pre-war Clady Circuit and Dundrod circuit), Belgian Grand Prix (Spa Francorchamps pre-war), Solitude Gp, Eifelrennen Gp ( Nürburgring - Südschleife), Dutch TT (pre-War van Drethe circuit), German GP (pre-war Sachensring and Nürburgring - Nordschleife) and the North West 200 (pre-war and post-war period up to 1979). Other “dangerous” motor-cycle races would include the pre-war Swedish Gp and the post-war Yugoslavian GP and the latter event was also boycotted by in 1973 by competitors in the FIM World Motor-Cycling along with the Isle of Man TT. The Canadian CTV News citation of May 2014 then states that the Isle of Man TT has “….claimed the lives of 240 bikers” and this is unclear if this fatal accidents to competitors and is incorrect as again the current number is 141. WP:VERIFY
In comparison, the Time citation of August 2014 does not describe the Isle of Man TT Races as the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race’ as it describes the event as “perhaps the most dangerous” or “one of the most dangerous.” races rather than ‘ the most dangerous motor-cycle race.’ The Time citation also mentions that two fatal accidents to competitors occurred which is correct and the reference to the fatal accident to a “field marshal” (?) is not correct. A reference to a fatal road traffic accident is made. However, the number of fatal and non-fatal public road traffic accidents (RTA) at the Isle of Man TT has fallen significantly from 2004 when compared to the period 1985-2003.
The Mirror citation of June 2015 has as headline of “The Isle of Men: The World’s Deadliest Race” and this is an inaccurate description of the Isle of Man TT Race and fails the criteria for independent notability required by Wikipedia WP:N . However, it then describes the Isle of Man TT as “the world’s most dangerous motorcycle event” (ie again, not the actual Isle of Man TT Races) as the “most bizarre conditions for motorcyclists.” The explanation for this is an unsubstantiated claim is that motor-cyclists ( ie non-competitors (?) ) “were forced to dodge animals on the winding roads.” WP:NOTRELIABLE
The New Zealand citation from Fairfax Media August 2011 has a title “The deadliest Race” (again not mentioning the Isle of Man TT or giving an explanation for verification required by Wikipedia). It then states the Isle of Man TT as the “world’s most prestigious motorbike race” and not the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race.’ The last paragraph of the Fairfax Media citation then end with the claim of “Death is inextricably part of the TT's appeal” and with Wikipedia rules that this citation should be considered a highly questionable source. WP:NOTRELIABLE WP:VERIFY
This discussion follows the BRD policy WP:BRD which is an is an optional method of reaching consensus. The issue in regard to the name was not part of the original BRD discussion which was about resolving the issue of independent notability WP:N for the article and the disputed citation of edit 10:40, 16 July 2015 by editor User:Rocknrollmancer which is now an unusable internet dead-link. The article name and the time-trial format are not disputed in this BRD discussion.
The time-trail format was chosen by the Auto-Cycle Union in 1907 for the first International Auto-Cycle Tourist Trophy race due to the emphasis on ‘touring’ rather than ‘racing’ motor-cycles and also due to the problems with extensive cheating by competitors at the International Cup Races. The time-trial format was in common use at the time and may have been a condition of acceptance by the IoM local authorities for approval for the 1904 Gordon Bennett Elimination Trial and the 1905 Tourist Trophy Races for automobiles held in the Isle of Man after the disastrous Continental City to City races.
The choice of the early Highroads Course or Four Inch Course for automobiles or the short St John's Short Course in 1907 for motor-cycles may have been selected along with use of the time-trial format to actually discourage ‘racing’ between competitors along with problems with dust on dirt roads. The use of the time-trial format prevents racing collisions between competitors at the start of a race such as the 250cc motor-cycle race at the 1973 Italian Grand Prix. The time-trail format is also used to prevent collisions between competitors being lapped by the race leader’s and a seeding system was introduced for the 1959 Isle of Man TT races. The recent reduction at the Isle of Man TT Races since 2008 of grid size, the increase of the qualification time and racing in qualification order has been used to create separation in the time-trial format between competitors to reduce ‘racing’ and collisions between competitors. There is a difference between racing against the clock in a time-trail format and ‘racing’ between competitors created by a ‘mass-start.’ The short-circuit style ‘racing’ at the Isle of Man TT and Manx Grand Prix races is actively discouraged through threats of exclusion, fines and endorsements to racing licences. The problems of ‘racing’ between competitors and a flawed application of a time-trial format can be seen by the fatal accident to works Ferrari driver Alfonso de Portago at the 1957 Mille Miglia.
The issues of the BRD discussion were to correct information which Wikipedia allow in respect to the process of independent verifiability WP:V The incorrect use of citations is not permitted by Wikipedia and the burden of ‘proof’ lies with any editor adding or removing text. WP:BURDEN Any text additions without citations will be challenged and removed. WP:V The comments of the edit 11:37, 10 February 2017 accurately identify that there are sources which give a different point of view to the inaccurate News.com.au citation of the 8th July 2015 and the correct process is to cover all different points of view in perhaps a ‘culture’ or safety section which is a correct application of the BRD process.( talk)20:15, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
News.com.au citation 8th July 2015
The issue with the News.co.au citation of the 8th July 2015 is that the author of the article may have confused the total (2016) number of 143 fatal accidents to competitors for the Isle of Man TT Races with the completely separate 2015 total number of 246 fatal accidents to the competitors for the Isle of Man TT (Mountain) Course which also included fatal accidents at the very separate Manx Grand Prix races held at different time of year. Therefore the News.co.au article and citation of the 8th July 2015 does not fulfil the Wikipedia rules of independent verifiability for the quotation. WP:V
The current 2016 total of fatal accidents to competitors is 252 for the Isle of Man TT (Mountain) Course which includes 143 fatal accidents to competitors during the Isle of Man TT races and 108 fatal accidents to competitors during the very separate Manx Grand Prix now part of the Isle of Man TT Festival of Motor-Cycling including the new Isle of Man Classic TT races. The total of fatal accidents for the Isle of Man TT Races for 2016 event is 143 fatal accidents to competitors, 2 fatal accidents spectators, 1 fatal accident race marshal, 2 fatal accidents non-competitive parade lap, 1 fatal accident unofficial testing, 2 race marshals fatal road traffic accident on public roads, 1 fatal road traffic accident TT Travelling Marshall on public roads, 1 fatal accident to competitor unspecified on public roads and 1 further undeclared fatal road traffic to a race marshal on public roads with a total of 154 fatal accidents for the Isle of Man TT races.
The News.co.au citation of the 8th July 2015 very clear states;- “…..the Isle of Man TT (Tourist Trophy) Race has seen more fatalities than any other motorcycle race — albeit in 100 years…..” and the same citation refers to “246 killed.” The News.com.au citation of the 8th July 2015 states that;- “ Many of the 246 killed in the race were professionals taking part in the fastest division, the Senior TT” and then the News.co.au citation then clarifies the situation and states that;- “But others were amateurs, who compete on the 60km Snaefell Mountain Course on “Mad Sunday”, in the middle of the two-week event.”
The reverted edit summary of 19:38, 7 February 2017 [34] by editor User:doncram states;- “undo whitewashing about deaths, again. Article is clear that 143 deaths are of competitors and that total is 246.” The News.com article clearly states “246 killed,” but nowhere in the article can it be found that it states “143 deaths” which the edit summary of 19:38, 7 February 2017 refers to and again stating the edit summary for the article of 19:38, 7 February 2017 that ;- “….Article is clear that 143 deaths are competitors….” The “143 deaths are competitors” is the current 2016 total and not the total at the time of writing of the article in on the 8th July 2015 when the total would have been 139 fatal accidents to competitors during the Isle of Man TT Races.
Neither of these facts of either ‘139’ or ‘141’ fatal accidents to competitors for the Isle of Man TT Races are stated anywhere in the citation from the article from News.com.au. dated 8th July 2015 and Wikipedia is very clear that in regard to independent verifiability WP:V that;- “In Wikipedia, verifiability means that other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source…. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it….” The article News.co.au does not state the correct reason for the remaining 107 fatalities and the article states in the fifth paragraph that;- “…..1970, six competitors lost their lives, with another racer perishing during the island’s Manx Grand Prix later the same year” and very incorrectly refers not to the Manx Grand Prix races but to;- “…..But others were amateurs, who compete on the 60km Snaefell Mountain Course on “Mad Sunday”, in the middle of the two-week event.” Fatal road traffic accidents (RTA) on open public roads during the accident reporting period of the Isle of Man TT Races by the Isle of Man Police Constabulary including ‘Mad Sunday’ should not be considered to be included in the total number of fatal accidents to competitors during the Isle of Man TT Races as suggested by the Newscom.au article of the 8th July 2015. Again the article clearly fails the process of independent verifiability WP:V and Wikipedia does not permit the synthesis of sources WP:SYN or Original Research WP:OR.
Graham Walker Article (1954) titled “A Cloud over the Mountain ? Comment on a Controversial TT Topic”
An alternative point of view to be considered is shown by an article in the 1954 Isle of Man TT programme written by Graham Walker a former Isle of Man TT winner, pre-war European Grand Prix competitor, BBC broadcaster and journalist. The article titled;- “A Cloud over the Mountain ? Comment on a Controversial TT Topic” written by Graham Walker as a Consulting Editor of the ‘Motor Cycling’ Magazine contains a number of comments about relative safety and danger at the Isle of Man TT Races. The article written by Graham Walker for the 1954 Isle of Man TT programme states that; “….on a rider-mile basis more fatal accidents occur on Continental circuits than in the Isle of Man, but that details of these accidents are seldom published in British newspaper's….” Any current Isle of Man TT citation or quotation not referring to the historic much lower “….rider-mile basis….” for the Isle of Man TT rate of fatal accidents may itself be unfortunately biased WP:BIAS or not offering a neutral point of view WP:NPOV as suggested by other Wikipedia editors. The historic much lower “….rider-mile basis….” rate of fatal accidents for the Isle of Man TT is the view stated by the Isle of Man TT race organiser as recently as the 2015 and 2016 Isle of Man TT Races.
Summary for BRD discussion
Any single citation or article which refers to the Isle of Man TT Races as the most “dangerous or deadliest race,” does not offer a neutral point of view WP:NPOV as required Wikipedia rules. As suggested previously with edit of the 20:15, 13 February 2017 [35] the correct process for Wikipedia is to cover all different points of view in perhaps a ‘culture’ or 'safety' section including the point of view suggested by the graham Walker article (1954) and the same the views of the Clerk of Course (2016) which is a correct application of the BRD process. agljones( talk)13:02, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Disputed
For purposes of clarification for other editors, the
Isle of Man TT Races and the
Manx Grand Prix are two separate events. For 2017, the total number of fatal accidents for competitors is 146 for the Isle of Man TT Races. The total number of fatal accidents to competitors for the Isle of Man TT (Mountain) Course is 255.
agljones(
talk)19:31, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
In this edit i just removed overly promotional and bureaucratic content from the lede paragraph. In addition I corrected the wording to avoid false claim that the race has been run annually since 1907, which is contradicted by the article further below. Some of the bureaucratic stuff could possibly be relevant to the article, and could be restored somewhere, but not in the lede. Also there is a citation supposedly supporting an assertion that this is the most prestigious event of all kinds in the universe, ever. Perhaps the source does say something worth quoting, in a quote, but we don't allow over-statements to be made in Wikipedia's voice. Some puffery is allowed and is even appropriate in the lede, in my view, but what was there was not appropriate. -- do ncr am 14:28, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
I have removed a reference added by seemingly an American Orangecones in this change, 18 April 2017.
The source (Auto Overload - now at Facebook) is deadlinked, can be seen here at Wayback. Note the amateur, improper use of capitalisation throughout the headlines shown.
A possible earlier source is at this Italian forum, but I'm not prepared to waste any more time on it.
This corner depicted is no point on the TT course and from the advertising (Fairyhouse) may be a location in Ireland. The caption does not state during TT races, and there is no way to conclude it is even a TT rider who was run-over at another circuit
This should never have been added and is basically irresponsible, not to mention raw URL/ un-formatted.
These sources breach WP:RS, and WP:SYNTH in adding it to the TT race article. Flagged up by Agljones, just this one alone took me 30 minutes (OK, casually, having breakfast (brunch) and watching MotoGP free practice).-- Rocknrollmancer ( talk) 12:49, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Orangecones ( talk) 03:46, 30 October 2017 (UTC) Thank you Rocknrollmancer you are correct and it's been instructional and helpful for me too....
I've just transferred most of the lede to the main article, but for some reason, there isn't a contents box. Perhaps someone could correct this. Thanks. Valetude ( talk) 23:21, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
Both the 2001 and 2020 events didn't happen, and so are not notable enough for separate articles with no content about them. Probably worth a mention (few sentences) somewhere in the main article that these were cancelled, but neither 2001 or 2020 event passes WP:GNG. Joseph 2302 ( talk) 14:45, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
None of the articles on any of the "Tourist Trophies" explains the name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DF:974B:4259:996A:894E:B553:598B ( talk) 18:55, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
References
I saw in Revision history that an inexperienced editor, SunflowerYuri, is responsible for a lot of red deletions recently, such as: ...this paragraph was outdated so I fixed it, I had to remove a bunch of sources that were way too outdated to be relevant.
Major deletions need to be discussed first - this is normal Wikiquette.
I have posted at the editor's Talk page, but needs to be annotated here. Credit is due for the edit summaries. I don't have time available to fix such deletions, or even to read through them. 82.13.47.210 ( talk) 01:39, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
When editing a few minutes ago, I tried to add a clickable link to Wikimedia Commons in the edit summary which didn't work, targeting an En-Wiki page. Interested parties can see the deleted text and edit summary comments in this simple link. 82.13.47.210 ( talk) 18:52, 17 January 2024 (UTC)