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An earlier version of this article was taken from the Rouse History of Mathematics, as marked up by Dr. David R. Wilkins, with permission: see article.
The infobox on this page has been removed. Please discuss for and against removal. To remind you what it looked like, here is a sample:
Please discuss to reach a consensus bunix 12:45, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, it has been two weeks since it was intially removed. This has now allowed adequate time for free discussion. So far the discussion has supported the box and there have been no arguments against posted here. Therefore I am now reinstating the box. In future, please can removers of large chunks of info always go to the discussion page first before removal, as per wiki policy. Immediate removal without discussion is only justified for vandalism and wiki violations. bunix 13:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Where the hell is Isaac Barrow's discovery of the fundamental theorem??? He's the father of calculus! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.69.190.75 ( talk) 23:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
The page states that Barrow "lectures for 1667 were published in the same year, and suggest the analysis by which Archimedes was led to his chief results." Does anyone have any additional information on this? Are the 1667 lectures online? Tkuvho ( talk) 14:25, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@ Fountains of Bryn Mawr: Hi,
User:Fountains of Bryn Mawr disagrees that
James Gregory had influenced
Isaac Barrow, however I provided a very robust document that was a 1916 translation of his work, which clearly showed high praise for Gregory's work.
It seems this user is just against establishing this relationship for some reason. It shouldn't be a surprise that Barrow had respect for gregory, and was influenced by his work, yet Bryn Mawr just can't let it go. I provided sources, and they try to claim a translated document from over 100 years ago, showing mutual respect, is somehow original research. It is not original research at all. Calling "the most learned man" is one of the highest compliments a scholar could pay another when using their work. I'm seeking moderation because the user may risk violating the
3RR, and I feel what I've provided is quite compelling. I would have to dig a little more, but I find a translated primary source document containing such a phrase as the most compelling piece of evidence. Secondary accounts often are less convincing.
Here is some secondary analysis showing the impact of Gregory's work. Secondary analysis such as
[1] (page 4, footnote 11) also refers to the quote I've used, but builds on it slightly more by also mentioning
Gottfried Leibniz' praise of Gregory's work. So we can see that the work of Gregory impressed both Leibniz and Barrow. To suggest such esteemed scholars (of almost 400 years ago) use phrases like "the most learned man" or "elegant theorem by Gregory" (quite the compliments) without being influenced by them (where such influence is in the form of using their work, at the very least) is unreasonable. I just do not know what the editor wants, and it feels like the evidence provided was sufficient. I will try to find more sources but I do not know how what is already provided isn't sufficient to constitute as evidence for influence.
Here is a letter by a prominent publishing intermediary (between Gregory, Barrow, and Newton) John Collins addressed to Gregory
[2] While the letter itself is somewhat mundane (he met Sir Isaac, had dinner, Sir Isaac said
Opticks was going to continue where Reverend Barrow left off, and that Collins needn't ask about Sir Isaac's publishing commitments because Reverend Barrow said the Lucasian chair had such requirements already), it establishes that, while communication was slow at the time, Collins was clearly acting as a facilitator. Thus, the work of Gregory clearly had an influence on Barrow given that the publisher was writing about their progress to the former. Trying to find more.
Apparently, Fermat reduced a problem of rectification by connecting tangents and the question of quadratures. Surprisingly, for all his deft use of infinitesimals in a variety of areas, he still failed to recognize this critical relation, denying himself the honored title of “true inventor of the calculus” (Boyer, 1959). The man first overtly aware of generality of the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus was James Gregory in 1668, exerting a significant influence on Isaac Barrow’s work.
So I have to ask, why is
Fountains of Bryn Mawr picking a fight over something that seems to be the consensus? Note: I am not talking about assigning priority/credit for the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus (which is clearly a bit more involved), but the influence of their investigations on eachother's work. Clearly assigning priority of the fundamental theorem is difficult because their collaboration (facilitated by Collins where appropriate) muddled the "who did what" part.
Found probably the most definitive scholarly literature on this issue, however, again, I must emphasise that the focus of these scholars is much more than that:
Barrow's heavy "borrowings" include his restatement of "Gregory's generalization of Wren's proof of a construction for the tangent at a general point on a cyclid arc," as well as his appropriation of Gregory's "rectifying transformation," the basis of the Scot's involutio and evolutio method. Even barrow's most famous achievement--the proof for the inverse nature of differentiation and integration--was now reinterpreted as a "neat amendment of Gregory's generalization of Neil's rectification method." - Mordechai Feingold [1]
If you dig further into that cited passage, you will find references to DT Whiteside [2] who argues this line of thinking. However, again, we are not discussing priority of the fundamental theorem, nor are we discussing originality. What we are discussing is whether it is reasonable to infer that Gregory's work influenced Barrow, and given the in-depth analyses of these scholars (admittedly focusing on originality and priority for the fundamental theorem of calculus), it is hard to argue against, at the very least, the idea that Gregory's work did influence Isaac Barrow. 174.3.155.181 ( talk) 17:05, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
The guideline at Template:Infobox scientist on the influences/influenced parameter also states "Unless the scientist was clearly building on an earlier work, avoid adding influences that were only via study, as such influences are generally too many and hard to separate. Only list influences who are notable enough to warrant their own wiki article." Again, we don't judge that, there should be extensive secondary sources on this influences/influenced such as sections in several reliable text books on the subject, i.e. extensive coverage. Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 20:49, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
it is offensive, and consequently frustrating, that User:Fountains of Bryn Mawr, who has not shown any understanding, respect OR appreciation, of the *actually* RICH History of Calculus, continues to act as an authority on this matter when their pretentiousness is palpable with each piece of text.
You asked for the RFC, you got an answer. Your opinion was well known and even if you inserted it again under "votes" it would make no difference --- "when there is no consensus among editors at RfC, the status quo ante applies". Rejecting community input, tendentious editing, ignoring WP:TPG, and other WP:DISRUPT is probably going to lead somewhere else fast. Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 21:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
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Barrow died at the age 46. It would be worth mentioning what he died from — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.50.99.110 ( talk) 23:06, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
An earlier version of this article was taken from the Rouse History of Mathematics, as marked up by Dr. David R. Wilkins, with permission: see article.
The infobox on this page has been removed. Please discuss for and against removal. To remind you what it looked like, here is a sample:
Please discuss to reach a consensus bunix 12:45, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, it has been two weeks since it was intially removed. This has now allowed adequate time for free discussion. So far the discussion has supported the box and there have been no arguments against posted here. Therefore I am now reinstating the box. In future, please can removers of large chunks of info always go to the discussion page first before removal, as per wiki policy. Immediate removal without discussion is only justified for vandalism and wiki violations. bunix 13:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Where the hell is Isaac Barrow's discovery of the fundamental theorem??? He's the father of calculus! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.69.190.75 ( talk) 23:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
The page states that Barrow "lectures for 1667 were published in the same year, and suggest the analysis by which Archimedes was led to his chief results." Does anyone have any additional information on this? Are the 1667 lectures online? Tkuvho ( talk) 14:25, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@ Fountains of Bryn Mawr: Hi,
User:Fountains of Bryn Mawr disagrees that
James Gregory had influenced
Isaac Barrow, however I provided a very robust document that was a 1916 translation of his work, which clearly showed high praise for Gregory's work.
It seems this user is just against establishing this relationship for some reason. It shouldn't be a surprise that Barrow had respect for gregory, and was influenced by his work, yet Bryn Mawr just can't let it go. I provided sources, and they try to claim a translated document from over 100 years ago, showing mutual respect, is somehow original research. It is not original research at all. Calling "the most learned man" is one of the highest compliments a scholar could pay another when using their work. I'm seeking moderation because the user may risk violating the
3RR, and I feel what I've provided is quite compelling. I would have to dig a little more, but I find a translated primary source document containing such a phrase as the most compelling piece of evidence. Secondary accounts often are less convincing.
Here is some secondary analysis showing the impact of Gregory's work. Secondary analysis such as
[1] (page 4, footnote 11) also refers to the quote I've used, but builds on it slightly more by also mentioning
Gottfried Leibniz' praise of Gregory's work. So we can see that the work of Gregory impressed both Leibniz and Barrow. To suggest such esteemed scholars (of almost 400 years ago) use phrases like "the most learned man" or "elegant theorem by Gregory" (quite the compliments) without being influenced by them (where such influence is in the form of using their work, at the very least) is unreasonable. I just do not know what the editor wants, and it feels like the evidence provided was sufficient. I will try to find more sources but I do not know how what is already provided isn't sufficient to constitute as evidence for influence.
Here is a letter by a prominent publishing intermediary (between Gregory, Barrow, and Newton) John Collins addressed to Gregory
[2] While the letter itself is somewhat mundane (he met Sir Isaac, had dinner, Sir Isaac said
Opticks was going to continue where Reverend Barrow left off, and that Collins needn't ask about Sir Isaac's publishing commitments because Reverend Barrow said the Lucasian chair had such requirements already), it establishes that, while communication was slow at the time, Collins was clearly acting as a facilitator. Thus, the work of Gregory clearly had an influence on Barrow given that the publisher was writing about their progress to the former. Trying to find more.
Apparently, Fermat reduced a problem of rectification by connecting tangents and the question of quadratures. Surprisingly, for all his deft use of infinitesimals in a variety of areas, he still failed to recognize this critical relation, denying himself the honored title of “true inventor of the calculus” (Boyer, 1959). The man first overtly aware of generality of the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus was James Gregory in 1668, exerting a significant influence on Isaac Barrow’s work.
So I have to ask, why is
Fountains of Bryn Mawr picking a fight over something that seems to be the consensus? Note: I am not talking about assigning priority/credit for the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus (which is clearly a bit more involved), but the influence of their investigations on eachother's work. Clearly assigning priority of the fundamental theorem is difficult because their collaboration (facilitated by Collins where appropriate) muddled the "who did what" part.
Found probably the most definitive scholarly literature on this issue, however, again, I must emphasise that the focus of these scholars is much more than that:
Barrow's heavy "borrowings" include his restatement of "Gregory's generalization of Wren's proof of a construction for the tangent at a general point on a cyclid arc," as well as his appropriation of Gregory's "rectifying transformation," the basis of the Scot's involutio and evolutio method. Even barrow's most famous achievement--the proof for the inverse nature of differentiation and integration--was now reinterpreted as a "neat amendment of Gregory's generalization of Neil's rectification method." - Mordechai Feingold [1]
If you dig further into that cited passage, you will find references to DT Whiteside [2] who argues this line of thinking. However, again, we are not discussing priority of the fundamental theorem, nor are we discussing originality. What we are discussing is whether it is reasonable to infer that Gregory's work influenced Barrow, and given the in-depth analyses of these scholars (admittedly focusing on originality and priority for the fundamental theorem of calculus), it is hard to argue against, at the very least, the idea that Gregory's work did influence Isaac Barrow. 174.3.155.181 ( talk) 17:05, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
The guideline at Template:Infobox scientist on the influences/influenced parameter also states "Unless the scientist was clearly building on an earlier work, avoid adding influences that were only via study, as such influences are generally too many and hard to separate. Only list influences who are notable enough to warrant their own wiki article." Again, we don't judge that, there should be extensive secondary sources on this influences/influenced such as sections in several reliable text books on the subject, i.e. extensive coverage. Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 20:49, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
it is offensive, and consequently frustrating, that User:Fountains of Bryn Mawr, who has not shown any understanding, respect OR appreciation, of the *actually* RICH History of Calculus, continues to act as an authority on this matter when their pretentiousness is palpable with each piece of text.
You asked for the RFC, you got an answer. Your opinion was well known and even if you inserted it again under "votes" it would make no difference --- "when there is no consensus among editors at RfC, the status quo ante applies". Rejecting community input, tendentious editing, ignoring WP:TPG, and other WP:DISRUPT is probably going to lead somewhere else fast. Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 21:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Isaac Barrow. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
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have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:36, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Barrow died at the age 46. It would be worth mentioning what he died from — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.50.99.110 ( talk) 23:06, 14 January 2019 (UTC)