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I've added info about Gaeltacht usage. I don't unfortunately know the origins of this or how long it's been around for. I also changed the first line because 'traditional Irish names' to me immediately evoked the likes of Coilin Phadgraig Sheamais rather than Tomas Mac Giolla. Palmiro 22:02, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
I am going to add some additional information to this section as this particular naming system survives in some areas outside the Gaeltacht. But the only areas I am aware of are in the Sperrin upland parts of counties Tyrone and Derry - these were Gaeltacht (or "breac gaeltacht") areas at the time of the ordinance survey of the 1840's, and an examination of the 1901 census returns reveals a surprising number of surviving native Irish speakers (who then must have died out during the twentieth century). Despite that this particular naming convention continued in the Sperrins. It has obviously been around along time and must predate the plantation of Ulster as it still occurs (to my knowledge) in counties Donegal, Derry, Tyrone and Kerry despite the fact that a common Irish language corrider connecting these areas ceased to exist centuries ago - this would be an very interesting area for research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Owenreagh ( talk • contribs) 01:24, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Hello Angr. First off, you have done a fantastic job on this article (which is now largely under the Epithets and Surnames and Prefixes sections. I edited the block writing into italics for purely visual reasons, as it looks better (I think! Hope you agree!) I added the second paragraph under Epithets about Luke More and Luke Beg to fill it out a bit (also because Luke Beg Gibbons is my maternal great-great great grandfather)
I'd love to see any more detail you might wish to add to what you've already put in, because its vastly better than what I originally wrote. Also, the idea of contrasting Gaelic and Anglicized names was a very good idea; I hope you don't mind that I expanded it.
Looking forward to reading more of your articles, and perhaps even working with you in future. Go raibh maith agat. Fergananim
I also Expanded on the Irish/Anglicised Comparrison with Aindriú/Andrew (My Great Grandfather and Sons Name) and Also My own Name, I was Christened Daniel but have been dubbed Domhainall since I can remember, I also added Aoife and Eva as it is Commonnly used but Eva is Generally accepted as a Slavic name. 194.73.150.2 11:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC) Domhainall
I thought that for married women Uí could be used inplace of both Ó and Mac. I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure I remember seeing or hearing that usage. Also isn't "MacAleese" the maiden name of President MacAleese? Should the Irish version of her name be Máire Nic Ghiolla Íosa then -- or is she following the example/precedent set by Máire Mhac an tSaoi?
Should the articles, Irish name and Irish given names be merged?
I would like to see included in the article why names (personal names, place names) are anglicised. Is it required? Is there a systematic way? Personal names and place names in foreign languages (those already written in the Latin alphabet) are not usually anglicised.
Other examples I can think of is in Belgium, Finland, and Switzerland because of their bilingualism/multilingualism. But in those cases they usually apply to place names. -- Kvasir 08:36, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, just on the legal status of Irish names: I don't think it is codified in statute law, but in practice the Irish version of the name certainly appears to have full legal status even where the person's official documents such as birth certificate etc all use the English form. I'm pretty sure I've seen legal instruments signed by Irish Ministers of State using the Irish form of their name when they have also signed other ones using the English form.
As regards official systems: until 1921 all administration in Ireland was done in English, so nobody had any form of their name that had any official status but the English form. This allowed English forms of surnames to be established pretty definitively for almost every individual family (though not as an equivalent for particular Irish surnames: often different people with the same Irish name would adopt different English versions of it). If there is any uncertainty nowadays, it is generally over the Irish even though that is the original form, historically speaking. My surname, for example, is almost always the correct equivalent for a given Anglicised surname; but my mother's surname we only know theEnglish for, and any Irish reconstruction is uncertain, as there are several Irish surnames which have been Anglicised to this or similar forms, with widel different origins and meanings. All it is possible to do in this case, unless you want to engage in detailed and probably hopeless geneaological research, is to pick the most likely Irish form on the basis of the area of origin of the family - which of course is far from certain. Palmiro | Talk 10:19, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Most people use the name given to them by thir parents in Ireland nowadays, So if they were baptised Patrick thats what they would be on Offical forms and so on. The same if they were christend Padric. For Example My name is Kenneth Hynes and I'd never ever call my self Cionnaith O'hEidhin foer any reason, even if I was writing or talking in Irish. Ken 21:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the list of "Gaelic surnames" wouldn't it be better to actually list surnames in Irish with their equivalent in English as oppose to examples of how people with their name written in Irish (Douglas Hyde etc etc.). I'm thinking sorta like the list that exists on [2]. Any opinions? Dubhthach
Anglicised Gaelic names are a problem. For example my own surname is "mac Cárthaigh" (and I never use an anglicised version.) This has been anglicised as McCarthy, MacCarthy, McCarthey, Macarthy.. and so on, none of which are used by my family (and we are all native English speakers.) When ignortant (Irish) people ask me "is that Irish for McCarthy" I just say no it isn't. Also People such as Gráinne Seoige (as an example mentioned in the article) are not known by an anglicised name so there is no point mentioning what a possible anglicisation might be when there isn't one in use. It's nonsense.
Even on the list of Gaelic firstnames: Grace is not the same as Gráinne, Charles is not the same as Cathal, etc, there are many Gaelic names that are not translations of English names they exist in their own right and have a distinct meaning and origin.
There is just something wrong with this article giving an anglicised form for names like Tadhg, Cathal, Sorcha, Aoife etc etc etc. Of all the people I know with these names, I have never once thought of them as Timothy, Charles, Sarah, Eve etc etc etc. Those names are foreign to the person, character and my knowledge of them. They are not their names no more than Charles Windsor is Cathal Windsor. Equally if I know somebody called George, Seoirse would be a foreign name to the person I know. He is just George. Full stop. I doubt I'm alone in the general feeling of alienness these "translations" evoke. If I know somebody called Tadhg he is just Tadhg, and nothing else. This part of the article does not reflect reality in Ireland. El Gringo 02:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
My surname is McNeill, I was wondering what the Irish spelling of it would be. My Dad is of Protestant upbringing, so I am guessing that the name perhaps comes from Scotland? Although his family have lived in Ireland, mainly Donegal for generations. I have guessed that it is "Mac Néill" but i doubt that is correct. Can Someone verify this for me? Thanks.
It's my understanding that the origin of my surname, Gilmore, is Mac Giolla Mhuire. However, the only English form listed for Mac Giolla Mhuire in the article is Murray. I want to add Gilmore to the list, but I haven't been able to find a credible citation. Does anyone have any information? 71.41.220.149 16:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Surely Fitz- cannot derive from French fils but rather from {Hiberno-)Norman fiz (son)? As can be seen, for example in The Deeds of the Normans in Ireland: "Fiz Coleman, le riche reis" (son of Colmán, the great king). Man vyi 16:56, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
There's no information in the article about the rendition of 'Fitz' into Irish---which is 'Mac' as far as I know. 89.231.116.65 ( talk) 02:48, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
Just going purely by what my Irish language teacher used to teach us, "Ó" is simply from the Irish ó meaning "of" (not inherently meaning "grandson" at all), and meant "son of" the same as "Mac". "Fitz" was a prefix taken to mean "bastard/illegitimate son of". Given that he moonlighted as a sometime language advisor to the Irish government, I tend to lend weight to his words; is anyone else familiar with these interpretations? Speed and Sleep ( talk) 12:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I have a question about Irish Surnames. Many Irish immigrated to Latin America and assimilated to their new home countries. Some Irish immigrants went far to the assimilation process and Spanified their surnames. For Example: O'Donoghue becomes O'Donojú, Sullivan becomes Sólivan, Murphy becomes Morfi, O'Farrell becomes O'Ferral, and O'Brien sometimes becomes Obregón. Should this be added in this article or it is not really that important? Lehoiberri ( talk) 04:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I have made a small correction to the article. In Irish, neither C nor G are lenited following nic or mhic: Síle Nic Gearailt, Muintir Mhic Gearailt, Máire Nic Cárthaigh, Muintir Mhic Cárthaigh. (See Chapter 10 of Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí). An Muimhneach Machnamhach ( talk) 18:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Per IMOS:
To avoid constant renaming of articles (and more), keep a neutral point of view, promote consistency in the encyclopedia, and avoid Stroke City-style terms perplexing to those unfamiliar with the dispute, a compromise solution was proposed and accepted by many users[clarify] regarding the Derry/Londonderry name dispute. Use Derry for the city and County Londonderry for the county in articles. The naming dispute can be discussed in the articles when appropriate.
To prevent edit warring and disputes, please consider the above. If someone does make an edit that conflicts with this, please Assume Good Faith and refrain from labelling as vandalism. GeneralBelly ( talk) 18:36, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
"Hassan may have an eastern look but in Ireland it is the anglicized form of Ó hOsáin."
Do you have more information about this unusual Irish surname Hassan. How from Ó hOsáin the name can be anglicized to become Hassan or the other variations? 72.137.225.183 ( talk) 02:33, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
I logged in to read the Irish name entry because I saw it cited elsewhere and was concerned about what appeared to be dubious info being disseminated. In skimming the piece, I noticed the material regarding Ó hOsáin and called my nephew to bring it to his attention (he's from Derry and Hasson is his surname). He was unimpressed by my discovery, having read it previously himself. However, as we spoke, I was skimming the talk page and noticed your query - so, you lucked out, I suppose. Enough blither, you asked a question.
As to "how" it can be anglicized, that's not so very difficult to understand - quite honestly, the anglicization is significantly more straightforward than many others. The breathy "h" prefixes a name the Gaelic of which would ordinarily pronounced as "ush-een" and was incorporated into it by English speakers. The variant spellings - Hasson, Hassen, Hassin, Hassan - all essentially pronounced alike, are no more than the typical vowel substitutions encountered in many names (and words, for that matter).
The meaning is "of the family of" or "sons of" or "children of" Osáin - a celebrated pagan poet of Ireland, said to have been the last of the legendary Fianna. He was spirited away to Tír na nÓg - the Land of the Ever Young - by the beautiful Niamh.
After a time, Osáin begged that she allow him to return to Ireland to see his father and his people once more. On arrival, he found the Fianna to have been 300 years gone in the time he had been away - a time that was but brief to him. Accidently thrown from the magic white steed on which he had traveled, he fell to the ground, touching Ireland's soil - against which Niamh had warned.
Immediately, he became again a mortal, an aged blind man. He was brought to Patrick, who was then in the process of Christianizing the country and who recognized his name from tales he had heard from the bards. At the bishop's behest, Osáin recited the ancient cycle of legends. In turn, was promised by Patrick that all Irish who entertained men by honest stories of bravery and honor would gain the reward of heaven.
Best I can do, hope it answered your question. Irish Melkite ( talk) 17:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your really good answer.
72.137.225.183 (
talk) 19:32, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I've added a section on additives (although I'm not sure that's the correct term) and I've taken Ryan as an example as there many different Ryan sub-groups in East Limerick and West Tipperary. Most additives is this area are a mixture of place (e.g. Ryan Bog), appearance (Ryan Black), ancestor (Ryan Luke) or trade (Ryan Tailor) and the additive appears after the surname.
I have an idea that additives in West Cork O'Sullivans mainly derive from ancestor and appear before the surname such as in Cork footballers Kevin Jer O'Sullivan and Brendan Jer O'Sullivan. Could anyone confirm this? And would anyone know how similarly-named people are differentiated in other parts of the country? Sean an Scuab ( talk) 19:12, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Irish name#Notable examples of firstnames and surnames is, at the time I'm writing this, 100% unsourced and contains apparently speculative names that are unencyclopedic. I am deleting many (most?) of the items in that section, as they are for people who were never even residents of Ireland. I also intend to delete any other names with no evidence of common usage in Irish-language Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Removal per Wikipedia guidelines related to WP:OR, WP:RS, and sometimes WP:BLP, including:
Just so people don't think I'm crazy, here are examples of people alleged to possess dual-language names without any reference whatsoever:
If I accidentally misjudge who has a legitimate Irish-language name in real-life WP:RS use, re-add with references of course. For tonight I am leaving people who, at first glance, are likely to have an Irish-language name in normal usage; but, as many of these names involve living people, these names need to get reliable sources soon or be deleted also. And though I've mentioned mainly Irish-language translation of English-language names, this applies to the opposite list also. -- Closeapple ( talk) 08:43, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Once again, some folks have added famous people's artificial "Irish names" with no evidence of the people or their parents being referred to with an Irish-language name. So, to solve this, I've gone through the whole list, removed 39 unsupported examples, and left 34 names in the original list.
It is possible that a few of these people were referred to with an Irish name in Irish literature at some point, but there is no reference to show their full names were used — that is, it seems evident that the sources for the names below were not contemporary Irish, but artificial dictionary conversions in violation of Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles)#Naming people.
Below is a list of the apparently synthesized names removed. I've explicitly added an asterisk before each name (a sign to linguists that it is invented) and crossed each name out, so that there is no doubt when someone searches for the name that it is not meant to be repeated without proper sources.
Common name | Fake name | Google results and comments |
---|---|---|
Ray Bolger | * |
only this article |
Diamond Jim Brady | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Walter Brennan | * |
only Wikipedia, and spelled differently than Moya Brennan's name |
Patrick Brontë | * |
born Patrick Brunty and changed it himself to Brontë; no note of him ever using "Ó Proinntigh" or its earlier clan name |
Daniel J. Callaghan | * |
only mirrors of this article |
William M. Callaghan | * |
same as Daniel |
Michael Cavanaugh (actor) | * |
no obvious references to the actor (or anyone else notable enough for Wikipedia) |
Michael Joe Costello | * |
only mirrors of this article |
John Charles Daly | * |
only mirrors of this article |
James Doohan | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Mike Farrell | * |
only mirrors of this article |
John Cameron Fogerty | * |
only this article |
William Russell Grace | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Sir William Johnson, 1st Baronet | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Arthur MacMorrough Kavanagh | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Geoffrey Keating | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Paul John Keating | * |
only this article |
Robert Francis Kennedy | * |
only old mirrors of Wikipedia articles |
Edward Moore "Ted" Kennedy | * |
only mirrors of Wikipedia articles |
Colm Meaney | * |
only mirrors of Wikipedia articles; but there's an unrelated bicycler |
Annie Moore (immigrant) | * |
only this article |
Audie Murphy | * |
only mirrors of this article |
John Murtha | * |
only mirrors of this article; also some unrelated Irish people |
Pat O'Brien (actor) | * |
only mirrors of this article |
John Carroll O'Connor | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Gerald S. O'Loughlin | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Eugene McCarthy | * |
only this article |
Edward O'Neill, 2nd Baron O'Neill | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Francis O'Neill | * |
mirrors of this article, and an article at [3] noting an album's haphazard changing of people's names into Irish |
John F. O'Ryan | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Hayden Rorke | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Cornelius Ryan | * |
only mirrors of this article |
James M. Gavin | * |
(born James Nally Ryan); only mirrors of this article and mentions of Séamus Ó Riain, President of the Gaelic Athletic Association |
Paddy Ryan (boxer) | * |
only mirrors of this article; but lots of others for people really named "Pádraig Ó Riain" |
John L. Sullivan | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Spencer Tracy | * |
only mirrors of this article |
M. Emmet Walsh | * |
only mirrors of this article |
William Butler Yeats | * |
only mirrors of this article |
In addition, there is
John Sullivan (claimed as *Seán Ó Súilleabháin), but the American-born American revolution general's signature looks like "Jn Sullivan" or "Jn oSullivan". It is amazing how many American-born celebrities were in this list. Must be some kind of "more Irish than the Irish" phenomenon among some "helpful" American editors. --
Closeapple (
talk) 21:45, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
As far as I remember, de Búrca, de Róiste, de Tiúit, de Brún, de Faoite, de Barra, Tóibín, Mac Coisdealbha among many others were all on this page. I think they should be returned to it. 93.107.7.115 ( talk) 10:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Shouldn't the anglicized version of Liam (Will) or Uilliam/Uiliam (William) be shown? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.78.213.31 ( talk) 03:50, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
This has been returned to the article with no attempt to justify its encyclopaedic relevance. It is an incomplete and uninformative list. I would suggest that a third opinion be sought, but maybe Angr, or anyone else who thinks there is some merit in this inclusion, will actually try to defend its inclusion. Kevin McE ( talk) 23:02, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
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I may have missed this in the article - sorry if I did. If I didn't - the article could do with giving the reader help on how to list Irish names alphabetically (it's why I came to the page). For instance, would Parthalán Ó hEachthiarn be lister under O, H or E? And Eithne Ní Uallacháin under N or U? Shhhnotsoloud ( talk) 09:52, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
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I know the plural of Ó/Ua is Uí, which triggers lenition (thus Uí Dhónaill, Uí Mhurchú, etc.), and the plural of Mac is Mhic, which is apparently lenited by default (is it short for Clann Mhic?) and triggers lenition in the same way as Nic (thus Mhic Mhuireadhaigh but Mhic Cárthaigh), but what are the plurals of Ní and Nic, and do they trigger lenition in the same way as Uí and Mhic? I highly doubt Mná Ó/Mac would ever really be used (unless you're a polygamist – but then it would be Uí/Mic), but those are correct – right? Esszet ( talk) 22:58, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
@ Sbbeef, Jnestorius, Asarlaí, Canterbury Tail, Mahagaja, Closeapple, Kevin McE, and Irish Melkite: I have been working on {{ Anthony}}. I noticed that a lot of biographies show Antaine as the Irish name for Anthony/Tony. However, on this page the example shown presents Antoine Ó Raifteiri as an example of Antoine being the Irish name for Anthony. Can someone clarify this. Also, is there a female Irish name for this family of names?-- TonyTheTiger ( T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:00, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
In order for this article to be more complete and comprehensive, the other Irish surname prefixes of Fitz, Kil Gil, Mal, Mul, & Dun should also be listed in this article. There are many historical articles that cover them and list that as Irish surname prefixes, such as this article and this article. They are also listed in the wiki article of List of family name affixes. Also listed on this list is Irish Surname suffix of lin, which appears in many Irish names. As the article stands, it borders on violating WP:NPOV. 79.154.28.57 ( talk) 15:50, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
Hi. While there's a lot there, in terms of:
Slán. Guliolopez ( talk) 02:41, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
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I've added info about Gaeltacht usage. I don't unfortunately know the origins of this or how long it's been around for. I also changed the first line because 'traditional Irish names' to me immediately evoked the likes of Coilin Phadgraig Sheamais rather than Tomas Mac Giolla. Palmiro 22:02, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
I am going to add some additional information to this section as this particular naming system survives in some areas outside the Gaeltacht. But the only areas I am aware of are in the Sperrin upland parts of counties Tyrone and Derry - these were Gaeltacht (or "breac gaeltacht") areas at the time of the ordinance survey of the 1840's, and an examination of the 1901 census returns reveals a surprising number of surviving native Irish speakers (who then must have died out during the twentieth century). Despite that this particular naming convention continued in the Sperrins. It has obviously been around along time and must predate the plantation of Ulster as it still occurs (to my knowledge) in counties Donegal, Derry, Tyrone and Kerry despite the fact that a common Irish language corrider connecting these areas ceased to exist centuries ago - this would be an very interesting area for research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Owenreagh ( talk • contribs) 01:24, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Hello Angr. First off, you have done a fantastic job on this article (which is now largely under the Epithets and Surnames and Prefixes sections. I edited the block writing into italics for purely visual reasons, as it looks better (I think! Hope you agree!) I added the second paragraph under Epithets about Luke More and Luke Beg to fill it out a bit (also because Luke Beg Gibbons is my maternal great-great great grandfather)
I'd love to see any more detail you might wish to add to what you've already put in, because its vastly better than what I originally wrote. Also, the idea of contrasting Gaelic and Anglicized names was a very good idea; I hope you don't mind that I expanded it.
Looking forward to reading more of your articles, and perhaps even working with you in future. Go raibh maith agat. Fergananim
I also Expanded on the Irish/Anglicised Comparrison with Aindriú/Andrew (My Great Grandfather and Sons Name) and Also My own Name, I was Christened Daniel but have been dubbed Domhainall since I can remember, I also added Aoife and Eva as it is Commonnly used but Eva is Generally accepted as a Slavic name. 194.73.150.2 11:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC) Domhainall
I thought that for married women Uí could be used inplace of both Ó and Mac. I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure I remember seeing or hearing that usage. Also isn't "MacAleese" the maiden name of President MacAleese? Should the Irish version of her name be Máire Nic Ghiolla Íosa then -- or is she following the example/precedent set by Máire Mhac an tSaoi?
Should the articles, Irish name and Irish given names be merged?
I would like to see included in the article why names (personal names, place names) are anglicised. Is it required? Is there a systematic way? Personal names and place names in foreign languages (those already written in the Latin alphabet) are not usually anglicised.
Other examples I can think of is in Belgium, Finland, and Switzerland because of their bilingualism/multilingualism. But in those cases they usually apply to place names. -- Kvasir 08:36, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, just on the legal status of Irish names: I don't think it is codified in statute law, but in practice the Irish version of the name certainly appears to have full legal status even where the person's official documents such as birth certificate etc all use the English form. I'm pretty sure I've seen legal instruments signed by Irish Ministers of State using the Irish form of their name when they have also signed other ones using the English form.
As regards official systems: until 1921 all administration in Ireland was done in English, so nobody had any form of their name that had any official status but the English form. This allowed English forms of surnames to be established pretty definitively for almost every individual family (though not as an equivalent for particular Irish surnames: often different people with the same Irish name would adopt different English versions of it). If there is any uncertainty nowadays, it is generally over the Irish even though that is the original form, historically speaking. My surname, for example, is almost always the correct equivalent for a given Anglicised surname; but my mother's surname we only know theEnglish for, and any Irish reconstruction is uncertain, as there are several Irish surnames which have been Anglicised to this or similar forms, with widel different origins and meanings. All it is possible to do in this case, unless you want to engage in detailed and probably hopeless geneaological research, is to pick the most likely Irish form on the basis of the area of origin of the family - which of course is far from certain. Palmiro | Talk 10:19, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Most people use the name given to them by thir parents in Ireland nowadays, So if they were baptised Patrick thats what they would be on Offical forms and so on. The same if they were christend Padric. For Example My name is Kenneth Hynes and I'd never ever call my self Cionnaith O'hEidhin foer any reason, even if I was writing or talking in Irish. Ken 21:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the list of "Gaelic surnames" wouldn't it be better to actually list surnames in Irish with their equivalent in English as oppose to examples of how people with their name written in Irish (Douglas Hyde etc etc.). I'm thinking sorta like the list that exists on [2]. Any opinions? Dubhthach
Anglicised Gaelic names are a problem. For example my own surname is "mac Cárthaigh" (and I never use an anglicised version.) This has been anglicised as McCarthy, MacCarthy, McCarthey, Macarthy.. and so on, none of which are used by my family (and we are all native English speakers.) When ignortant (Irish) people ask me "is that Irish for McCarthy" I just say no it isn't. Also People such as Gráinne Seoige (as an example mentioned in the article) are not known by an anglicised name so there is no point mentioning what a possible anglicisation might be when there isn't one in use. It's nonsense.
Even on the list of Gaelic firstnames: Grace is not the same as Gráinne, Charles is not the same as Cathal, etc, there are many Gaelic names that are not translations of English names they exist in their own right and have a distinct meaning and origin.
There is just something wrong with this article giving an anglicised form for names like Tadhg, Cathal, Sorcha, Aoife etc etc etc. Of all the people I know with these names, I have never once thought of them as Timothy, Charles, Sarah, Eve etc etc etc. Those names are foreign to the person, character and my knowledge of them. They are not their names no more than Charles Windsor is Cathal Windsor. Equally if I know somebody called George, Seoirse would be a foreign name to the person I know. He is just George. Full stop. I doubt I'm alone in the general feeling of alienness these "translations" evoke. If I know somebody called Tadhg he is just Tadhg, and nothing else. This part of the article does not reflect reality in Ireland. El Gringo 02:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
My surname is McNeill, I was wondering what the Irish spelling of it would be. My Dad is of Protestant upbringing, so I am guessing that the name perhaps comes from Scotland? Although his family have lived in Ireland, mainly Donegal for generations. I have guessed that it is "Mac Néill" but i doubt that is correct. Can Someone verify this for me? Thanks.
It's my understanding that the origin of my surname, Gilmore, is Mac Giolla Mhuire. However, the only English form listed for Mac Giolla Mhuire in the article is Murray. I want to add Gilmore to the list, but I haven't been able to find a credible citation. Does anyone have any information? 71.41.220.149 16:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Surely Fitz- cannot derive from French fils but rather from {Hiberno-)Norman fiz (son)? As can be seen, for example in The Deeds of the Normans in Ireland: "Fiz Coleman, le riche reis" (son of Colmán, the great king). Man vyi 16:56, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
There's no information in the article about the rendition of 'Fitz' into Irish---which is 'Mac' as far as I know. 89.231.116.65 ( talk) 02:48, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
Just going purely by what my Irish language teacher used to teach us, "Ó" is simply from the Irish ó meaning "of" (not inherently meaning "grandson" at all), and meant "son of" the same as "Mac". "Fitz" was a prefix taken to mean "bastard/illegitimate son of". Given that he moonlighted as a sometime language advisor to the Irish government, I tend to lend weight to his words; is anyone else familiar with these interpretations? Speed and Sleep ( talk) 12:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I have a question about Irish Surnames. Many Irish immigrated to Latin America and assimilated to their new home countries. Some Irish immigrants went far to the assimilation process and Spanified their surnames. For Example: O'Donoghue becomes O'Donojú, Sullivan becomes Sólivan, Murphy becomes Morfi, O'Farrell becomes O'Ferral, and O'Brien sometimes becomes Obregón. Should this be added in this article or it is not really that important? Lehoiberri ( talk) 04:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I have made a small correction to the article. In Irish, neither C nor G are lenited following nic or mhic: Síle Nic Gearailt, Muintir Mhic Gearailt, Máire Nic Cárthaigh, Muintir Mhic Cárthaigh. (See Chapter 10 of Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí). An Muimhneach Machnamhach ( talk) 18:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Per IMOS:
To avoid constant renaming of articles (and more), keep a neutral point of view, promote consistency in the encyclopedia, and avoid Stroke City-style terms perplexing to those unfamiliar with the dispute, a compromise solution was proposed and accepted by many users[clarify] regarding the Derry/Londonderry name dispute. Use Derry for the city and County Londonderry for the county in articles. The naming dispute can be discussed in the articles when appropriate.
To prevent edit warring and disputes, please consider the above. If someone does make an edit that conflicts with this, please Assume Good Faith and refrain from labelling as vandalism. GeneralBelly ( talk) 18:36, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
"Hassan may have an eastern look but in Ireland it is the anglicized form of Ó hOsáin."
Do you have more information about this unusual Irish surname Hassan. How from Ó hOsáin the name can be anglicized to become Hassan or the other variations? 72.137.225.183 ( talk) 02:33, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
I logged in to read the Irish name entry because I saw it cited elsewhere and was concerned about what appeared to be dubious info being disseminated. In skimming the piece, I noticed the material regarding Ó hOsáin and called my nephew to bring it to his attention (he's from Derry and Hasson is his surname). He was unimpressed by my discovery, having read it previously himself. However, as we spoke, I was skimming the talk page and noticed your query - so, you lucked out, I suppose. Enough blither, you asked a question.
As to "how" it can be anglicized, that's not so very difficult to understand - quite honestly, the anglicization is significantly more straightforward than many others. The breathy "h" prefixes a name the Gaelic of which would ordinarily pronounced as "ush-een" and was incorporated into it by English speakers. The variant spellings - Hasson, Hassen, Hassin, Hassan - all essentially pronounced alike, are no more than the typical vowel substitutions encountered in many names (and words, for that matter).
The meaning is "of the family of" or "sons of" or "children of" Osáin - a celebrated pagan poet of Ireland, said to have been the last of the legendary Fianna. He was spirited away to Tír na nÓg - the Land of the Ever Young - by the beautiful Niamh.
After a time, Osáin begged that she allow him to return to Ireland to see his father and his people once more. On arrival, he found the Fianna to have been 300 years gone in the time he had been away - a time that was but brief to him. Accidently thrown from the magic white steed on which he had traveled, he fell to the ground, touching Ireland's soil - against which Niamh had warned.
Immediately, he became again a mortal, an aged blind man. He was brought to Patrick, who was then in the process of Christianizing the country and who recognized his name from tales he had heard from the bards. At the bishop's behest, Osáin recited the ancient cycle of legends. In turn, was promised by Patrick that all Irish who entertained men by honest stories of bravery and honor would gain the reward of heaven.
Best I can do, hope it answered your question. Irish Melkite ( talk) 17:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your really good answer.
72.137.225.183 (
talk) 19:32, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I've added a section on additives (although I'm not sure that's the correct term) and I've taken Ryan as an example as there many different Ryan sub-groups in East Limerick and West Tipperary. Most additives is this area are a mixture of place (e.g. Ryan Bog), appearance (Ryan Black), ancestor (Ryan Luke) or trade (Ryan Tailor) and the additive appears after the surname.
I have an idea that additives in West Cork O'Sullivans mainly derive from ancestor and appear before the surname such as in Cork footballers Kevin Jer O'Sullivan and Brendan Jer O'Sullivan. Could anyone confirm this? And would anyone know how similarly-named people are differentiated in other parts of the country? Sean an Scuab ( talk) 19:12, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Irish name#Notable examples of firstnames and surnames is, at the time I'm writing this, 100% unsourced and contains apparently speculative names that are unencyclopedic. I am deleting many (most?) of the items in that section, as they are for people who were never even residents of Ireland. I also intend to delete any other names with no evidence of common usage in Irish-language Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Removal per Wikipedia guidelines related to WP:OR, WP:RS, and sometimes WP:BLP, including:
Just so people don't think I'm crazy, here are examples of people alleged to possess dual-language names without any reference whatsoever:
If I accidentally misjudge who has a legitimate Irish-language name in real-life WP:RS use, re-add with references of course. For tonight I am leaving people who, at first glance, are likely to have an Irish-language name in normal usage; but, as many of these names involve living people, these names need to get reliable sources soon or be deleted also. And though I've mentioned mainly Irish-language translation of English-language names, this applies to the opposite list also. -- Closeapple ( talk) 08:43, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Once again, some folks have added famous people's artificial "Irish names" with no evidence of the people or their parents being referred to with an Irish-language name. So, to solve this, I've gone through the whole list, removed 39 unsupported examples, and left 34 names in the original list.
It is possible that a few of these people were referred to with an Irish name in Irish literature at some point, but there is no reference to show their full names were used — that is, it seems evident that the sources for the names below were not contemporary Irish, but artificial dictionary conversions in violation of Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles)#Naming people.
Below is a list of the apparently synthesized names removed. I've explicitly added an asterisk before each name (a sign to linguists that it is invented) and crossed each name out, so that there is no doubt when someone searches for the name that it is not meant to be repeated without proper sources.
Common name | Fake name | Google results and comments |
---|---|---|
Ray Bolger | * |
only this article |
Diamond Jim Brady | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Walter Brennan | * |
only Wikipedia, and spelled differently than Moya Brennan's name |
Patrick Brontë | * |
born Patrick Brunty and changed it himself to Brontë; no note of him ever using "Ó Proinntigh" or its earlier clan name |
Daniel J. Callaghan | * |
only mirrors of this article |
William M. Callaghan | * |
same as Daniel |
Michael Cavanaugh (actor) | * |
no obvious references to the actor (or anyone else notable enough for Wikipedia) |
Michael Joe Costello | * |
only mirrors of this article |
John Charles Daly | * |
only mirrors of this article |
James Doohan | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Mike Farrell | * |
only mirrors of this article |
John Cameron Fogerty | * |
only this article |
William Russell Grace | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Sir William Johnson, 1st Baronet | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Arthur MacMorrough Kavanagh | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Geoffrey Keating | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Paul John Keating | * |
only this article |
Robert Francis Kennedy | * |
only old mirrors of Wikipedia articles |
Edward Moore "Ted" Kennedy | * |
only mirrors of Wikipedia articles |
Colm Meaney | * |
only mirrors of Wikipedia articles; but there's an unrelated bicycler |
Annie Moore (immigrant) | * |
only this article |
Audie Murphy | * |
only mirrors of this article |
John Murtha | * |
only mirrors of this article; also some unrelated Irish people |
Pat O'Brien (actor) | * |
only mirrors of this article |
John Carroll O'Connor | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Gerald S. O'Loughlin | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Eugene McCarthy | * |
only this article |
Edward O'Neill, 2nd Baron O'Neill | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Francis O'Neill | * |
mirrors of this article, and an article at [3] noting an album's haphazard changing of people's names into Irish |
John F. O'Ryan | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Hayden Rorke | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Cornelius Ryan | * |
only mirrors of this article |
James M. Gavin | * |
(born James Nally Ryan); only mirrors of this article and mentions of Séamus Ó Riain, President of the Gaelic Athletic Association |
Paddy Ryan (boxer) | * |
only mirrors of this article; but lots of others for people really named "Pádraig Ó Riain" |
John L. Sullivan | * |
only mirrors of this article |
Spencer Tracy | * |
only mirrors of this article |
M. Emmet Walsh | * |
only mirrors of this article |
William Butler Yeats | * |
only mirrors of this article |
In addition, there is
John Sullivan (claimed as *Seán Ó Súilleabháin), but the American-born American revolution general's signature looks like "Jn Sullivan" or "Jn oSullivan". It is amazing how many American-born celebrities were in this list. Must be some kind of "more Irish than the Irish" phenomenon among some "helpful" American editors. --
Closeapple (
talk) 21:45, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
As far as I remember, de Búrca, de Róiste, de Tiúit, de Brún, de Faoite, de Barra, Tóibín, Mac Coisdealbha among many others were all on this page. I think they should be returned to it. 93.107.7.115 ( talk) 10:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Shouldn't the anglicized version of Liam (Will) or Uilliam/Uiliam (William) be shown? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.78.213.31 ( talk) 03:50, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
This has been returned to the article with no attempt to justify its encyclopaedic relevance. It is an incomplete and uninformative list. I would suggest that a third opinion be sought, but maybe Angr, or anyone else who thinks there is some merit in this inclusion, will actually try to defend its inclusion. Kevin McE ( talk) 23:02, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
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I may have missed this in the article - sorry if I did. If I didn't - the article could do with giving the reader help on how to list Irish names alphabetically (it's why I came to the page). For instance, would Parthalán Ó hEachthiarn be lister under O, H or E? And Eithne Ní Uallacháin under N or U? Shhhnotsoloud ( talk) 09:52, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
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I know the plural of Ó/Ua is Uí, which triggers lenition (thus Uí Dhónaill, Uí Mhurchú, etc.), and the plural of Mac is Mhic, which is apparently lenited by default (is it short for Clann Mhic?) and triggers lenition in the same way as Nic (thus Mhic Mhuireadhaigh but Mhic Cárthaigh), but what are the plurals of Ní and Nic, and do they trigger lenition in the same way as Uí and Mhic? I highly doubt Mná Ó/Mac would ever really be used (unless you're a polygamist – but then it would be Uí/Mic), but those are correct – right? Esszet ( talk) 22:58, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
@ Sbbeef, Jnestorius, Asarlaí, Canterbury Tail, Mahagaja, Closeapple, Kevin McE, and Irish Melkite: I have been working on {{ Anthony}}. I noticed that a lot of biographies show Antaine as the Irish name for Anthony/Tony. However, on this page the example shown presents Antoine Ó Raifteiri as an example of Antoine being the Irish name for Anthony. Can someone clarify this. Also, is there a female Irish name for this family of names?-- TonyTheTiger ( T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:00, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
In order for this article to be more complete and comprehensive, the other Irish surname prefixes of Fitz, Kil Gil, Mal, Mul, & Dun should also be listed in this article. There are many historical articles that cover them and list that as Irish surname prefixes, such as this article and this article. They are also listed in the wiki article of List of family name affixes. Also listed on this list is Irish Surname suffix of lin, which appears in many Irish names. As the article stands, it borders on violating WP:NPOV. 79.154.28.57 ( talk) 15:50, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
Hi. While there's a lot there, in terms of:
Slán. Guliolopez ( talk) 02:41, 11 June 2023 (UTC)