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I changed the last sentence of the intro to weaken the claims made, so I don't think it needs a citation any more. It is a fact that many "G&S fans" (as opposed to the theatregoing public, who are most familiar with the "big 3") think Iolanthe is the best G&S work. This is confirmed by what I would call "mountains of anecdotal evidence" and also by some "polls" taken over the years on Savoynet, the international G&S discussion list (admittedly not a scientifically selected sample of G&S fans). Also, I don't know of anyone who *doesn't* like Iolanthe. It's in everyone's top several, at least. It is just a well-written show. The dialogue and music are consistently engaging, without any "slow" parts of the show. BTW, Iolanthe is not MY favorite (I like Yeomen and Pirates best), and of course it could be said of some of the others that "many G&S fans" like it the best. I think, also, that if you examine the libretto and the score of Iolanthe, as compared with the lib. and scores of the other G&S operas, you will not see a better balanced work, in terms of balance between the male and female characters, the music and the dialogue, the slow and fast numbers, the comic vs. romantic scenes, the pacing of the plot, etc. Unlike say, Utopia, no character gets left behind, no subplot fails to get resolved, and no stone is left unturned by Sir Arthur in his use of musical motifs and clever orchestration to illustrate the meaning of a song. So, to wrap up this longwinded justification, just as we can say that The Mikado, Pinafore and Pirates are "very popular", I think it is fair and true to say that "many G&S fans" find Iolanthe the best and the best balanced G&S show. -- Ssilvers 19:05, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I just did a fairly major re-write on the plot summary. Reading it over, I realized that the summary contained a number of statements that are not supported in the libretto (though they may have applied to a production that the writer was familiar with) and other descriptions that did not follow (or confused) the order of the libretto. -- Ssilvers 01:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I changed Strephon, under "roles" from "bass-baritone" to "baritone". Yes, I know Richard Temple was a bass, but anyone who has sung Strephon knows that Strephon is a baritone. It has high F's (and an optional G) and lots of fairly lyric singing. Yes, it has a low G, but it is not a difficult one, and the tessitura of the role lies right in the middle of the baritone range. I think it is misleading to label it "bass-baritone". Even if Sullivan did so, remember that the lower-sitting "FYFW" has been removed from the role. -- Ssilvers ( talk)
The second paragraph says:
There is no source for the claim that it was the "world's first fairy-tale opera," or that it "...was true enchantment for the audiences." Marc Shepherd 17:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Interesting if we could have chapter and verse for assertion that Fairy Queen's music in Iolanthe makes reference to The Magic Flute. I thought I knew both works well, but blest if I can spot any references from the later to the earlier work. (Regards, Tim.)
I agree with Marc. My references compare Iolanthe to Wagner and other composers, but never to Mozart. I will correct if no one else does.-- Gary 20:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
What on earth does stuff about "fairy-tale operas" have to do with "roles?"
Iolanthe supposedly revealed herself to the L.C. to save him from "bigamy", but bigamy is marrying two wives. What's a child marrying a parent? (besides illegal/etc.) Peter T.S. 03:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Are you SURE that's why Gilbert changed the name? To keep things secret? I was under the impression it was something to do with conflicts with Tchaikovsky's opera of the same name. Adam Cuerden 05:32, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree that "Perola" does not musically fit where the fairies sing "Iolanthe" early in Act I. However, it was my understanding that that was sung, in rehearsal, as "Oh Perola". I suggest deleting the part about how it doesn't fit--after all, it was clearly sung in the early part of rehearsals as "Perola", fit or no fit.-- Gary 22:40, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
It's laughable that Tchaikovsky's Iolanta should enter into this discussion of the opera's name: Iolanta was given its first performance only in 1892. See Grove's New Dictionary of Opera sub Iolanta.
Again, I find myself with the difficult task of trying to divide an Act I finale into sections. Iolanthe's Act I Finale is so complicated that I've just put a waiver saying that it has other parts too and let it stand with a few of the sections that have an obvious first line to quote - this may not be ideal. In fact, it isn't. Help! Adam Cuerden 12:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I think "lout" is the usual title of this section and gives some flavor of what's going on in the section. One could make a case for just saying "Young Strephon", because both men and women sing this, but I think the lout alternative is more descriptive. -- Ssilvers 17:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Arr, tricky, then. Savoynet poll, perhaps? If the name is divided roughly on gender lines, it's probably worth giving both names. Adam Cuerden 13:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, the track listing of a recording is a more reliable source than a Savoynet poll. This particular section simply doesn't have a "standard" name, probably because multiple texts are being sung at once. I would go with "With Strephon for your foe." Marc Shepherd 16:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think your recollection is right. Also, Schirmer has some variations from the authentic text in the Act I finale, particlualry the "P-A-R liament" and "You GO sky high", but these are fairly well known (and easy to mark in one's score). Plus, Schirmer contains the dialogue, which Chappell does not. In rehearsal, the convenience of having a score with dialogue should not be underestimated. In Buxton, the Brits were constantly trying to juggle two books. -- Ssilvers 19:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Is it worth mentioning this is a reprise of "If you go in" or is this pointless? I have added such mentions to, for instance, Princess Ida, so if this is undesirable, I'd like to know before I spread it further. Adam Cuerden 15:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I would not mention it. There are lots of reprises in G&S, and not just in finales. We are listing musical numbers, not analyzing them. The proposed standard for the opera articles has a heading for "Musical Elements" where the musical structure of each work can be described. It has yet to be populated for any opera, because we're still working on more basic stuff. Marc Shepherd 16:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, FWIW, I think we're going the wrong direction when we bulk-up the lists of roles and musical numbers with footnotes and explanations. These matters are better described in other sections. Marc Shepherd 19:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
What if we just add (reprise of x)? Isn't this standard in theatre programs that give a list of numbers? If you say this, I don't think you need any more explanation. -- Ssilvers 20:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Can anybody discern a reference to either of the Queen of the Night's arias in any of the Fairy Queen's music? Somebody seems to think so - see The Magic Flute#Trivia. I've stuck a "citation needed" there, but thought I'd ask here before deleting it out of hand. -- GuillaumeTell 11:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it's worth mentioning that Iolanthe's appeal to the Lord Chancellor is initially made in disguise, and that he listens to it and is visibly moved; only after he masters himself and reiterates his determination to marry Phyllis himself does Iolanthe unveil, sacrificing herself "for him, for her, for thee". The last part, I take it, is that in addition to making Strephon and Phyllis unhappy, the Chancellor is otherwise about to commit bigamy. G&S often introduce a note of genuine pathos and Iolanthe revealing herself as the chorus of invisible fairies beg her not to certainly qualifies (even tho' W Schwenk is about to conjure a rabbit out of the hat, as usual). Captain Pedant 12:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC) (sometime Strephon and Mountararat)
Done. Legally speaking, of course, the Chancellor's marriage to Phyllis would have been "presumptively valid" by reason of Iolanthe's long desertion, and "conclusively void" only on her reappearance. But by the rules of classic tragedy, he'd have been as guilty as Oedipus even though just as ignorant of the true facts. I like G&S but can only really pronounce on the operettas I've been in :) Captain Pedant 14:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, it just got longer and longer. I have simplified and shortened it, and I think it's perfectly clear now. As for the LC saying "a single word will do it", it's not a question of precision, it's a question of how to deliver the joke. Jokes have to be simple, and in any event, all we need to do in the synopsis is to describe what happens in the play. If you want to explain to the reader why Gilbert was wrong about something, you need to do that in an "analysis" section of the article, and you need to reference it with citations. -- Ssilvers 16:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't see how it makes sense to move the Capt Shaw info from where it was. The first paragraph under "Background" is all about things that happened on opening night. This leads into discussion of the text, the issue regarding the name and then historical context. -- Ssilvers 03:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I would be open to re-ordering the whole section, but I can't see separating the Capt Shaw sentences from the other sentences about opening night. I don't think it's jarring in that paragraph, because it is an example of what the topic sentence of the paragraph is discussing, and it doesn't belong anywhere else in the paragraph. One could certainly argue that the whole section should be chronological, or organized in another way. There are several different issues discussed in the section, and all of them come under the general heading of "background", but I don't think you could write an introductory paragraph that ties the whole section together. As I say above, I think the section makes reasonable sense the way it is. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 12:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I consolidated the most "analytical" paragraphs into an "analysis" section. Hope that helps. --
Ssilvers 02:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Is it worth having in the article that the drunken robot in the Asimov story quotes from the Nightmare song? It is a while since I read the short story, but it does spout off from several G&S operettas, as SSilvers' edit notes. Why should this be in Iolanthe, then? Why not in the G&S article? If the robot quotes from several works, are we putting that in each work he quotes from? Better to put it, if at all, in the G&S article.-- Wehwalt ( talk) 21:08, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Probably silly, but I came to see how "Iolanthe" is pronounced. A phonetic spelling at the start of the article may be helpful to some.
Why is there a link to Mount Ararat in the see also section? Could this have been overlooked plausible vandalism? DFH ( talk) 15:47, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
That is what "See also" is for: links to articles that are only peripherally related to the subject but have a connection like this. I think it's perfect as is. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 17:57, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Apropos of the recent reversion, while the TV character Reggie Perrin may or may not in the present context be notable, the reverted contribution by an anonymous contributor is accurate, except for spelling David Nobbs's name wrongly. Tim riley ( talk) 18:14, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
If memory serves, Reggie ended up with Iolanthe as his middle name because his parents were performing in a production of the opera that year, not because he was born during a performance. He also mentions that if he'd been born a year later, he would have had a different G&S opera (Pirates of Penzance(?)) instead. Alas, I have only my memory to go on, and would rather have a cite before making the change. If somebody can track one down, feel free to add the information. JDZeff ( talk) 14:05, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
What is going on here? Is London mythological? (And, looking at the category, in what way are the settings of The Gondoliers, Princess Ida and The Grand Duke mythological? The category description refers to mythology and folklore - there's no mention of countries invented by opera librettists. -- Guillaume Tell 22:38, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Well, Act I of Iolanthe is set in " An Arcadian Landscape", and fairies are myth/folklore, so I'd say both Thespis and Iolanthe qualify. I agree about Gondos/Utopia/GD/Ida, but: Is it possible that the category description is too narrow? Should it be expanded to mythology, folklore AND fictional settings? -- Ssilvers ( talk) 14:35, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Note that Shsilver and I are two different editors, despite our similar usernames. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 15:09, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
The category as it stands is curiously underpopulated (which is one reason why the G&S stuff sticks out). It's a sub-category of Category:Operas by setting, but many of the country categories there also look underpopulated - it's as if whoever started doing the categorising got fed up or went off to do something else. However, Category:Operas based on Greco-Roman mythology is very well-populated, but that's a sub-cat of Category:operas by theme. Anyway, given that the category that we're discussing states "This category contains a list of operas set in mythological lands or based on non-geographical folklores", and most of the G&S operas mentioned above don't fit into either of these definitions (especially if you follow the links - and you should!), then Something Needs To Be Done. Maybe I'll mention this debate at WikiProject Opera. -- Guillaume Tell 19:06, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
In the trivia section there is currently a disagreement over whether Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" sci-fi books were based on Iolanthe. I suggest that if the statement is retained Asimov's statement about his inspiration should be spelled out in full, as at present its tangential relevance to the opera is misleading. Tim riley ( talk) 16:25, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
The disambiguation hatnote for Tchaikovski's "Iolanta" is based on the similarity of the name (and, in theory at least, to avoid confusion arising from this similarity). There is no other connection (for instance the plot is completely different - the heroine is a fairy rather than a blind princess etc.) So while the play on which the Tchkovsky work is based is relevant to that work - its connection to Gilbert & Sullivan's "Iolanthe" is extremely tenuous. IMHO, anyway -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 20:12, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
It's the origin of the name "Iolanthe". "Iolanthe" is the Danish version of the name Yolante, which was used directly in translations of the play, which was enormously popular at the time. It was also often performed in English under the title "Iolanthe". [1] (eg the 1876 benefit performance for Irving [2]). So, indeed, was the opera. [3] The name is not "similar" it was in fact the same. It's just a modern convention that the opera is now known as "Iolanta" or "Yolanta". The fact that the play is little known nowadays is irrelevant. We are supposed to be expanding knowledge, not maintaining ignorance. The link is not tenuous. It is central. [4] All audiences at the time would have associated the parody of magical enchanted figures with the well-known play and opera. The figure of Iolanthe is a joke derived from the "magical romance" genre initiated by the play. Also, I see nothing in the WP:OVERLINK guidelines that is relevant here. They are essentially about avoiding turning every other word in an article blue, not about adding content. Paul B ( talk) 12:55, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
[Left] The article on the play does indeed say that it is an alternative title (though not in the lede). I have provided links to evidence of that fact. Just click on them. That's what they are there for. As I wrote, "though officially titled "King Rene's Daughter", was often performed under the name "Iolanthe", and was so in the years just before the G&S work was created [that is, in the late 1870s]." I don't know why I have to keep repeating that fact. It's quite simple. "King Rene's Daughter" was also known as "Iolanthe". Of course the G&S operetta should be the primary page. It's much better known. If there is a disamb page it should be linked from this one. However, it is very common to have two links in hatnotes, so I don't see the problem. It might also be possible to add content about the source of the name in this article if it can be properly sourced. Paul B ( talk) 21:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I already linked to evidence of Irving's performance in my first post on this page. There was also an adapted version by Wills that was performed under that name. In response to Soundofmusicals, whether it is mentioned in the lede of the KRD article or not is utterly irrelevent. That's an issue for how that article is written, not to whether or not there should be a link here. I am beginning to wonder if Soundofmusicals actually reads what I write. I said very clearly "The article on the play does indeed say that it is an alternative title (though not in the lede)." I cannot understand the point of this persistent resort to irrelevance. What matters is whether a reader, looking for the article, might type in that title. Also, we are supposed to be adding useful material, not suppressing it. To be frank, I am getting sick of Soundofmusicals's patronising tone. I know perfectly well what hatnotes are for. I have been around in Wikipedia a lot longer than you have. Also I am a professional specialist in Victorian culture, having written and edited numerous books and articles on the topic. Just type "Paul Barlow" and "Victorian" into google. I don't need to be told about the Savoy operas or the context of theatrical culture at the time. Paul B ( talk) 17:36, 11 January 2012 (UTC) I quote from Ian Bradley's The Complete Annotated Gilbert and Sullivan (1995), OUP. "There may also have been some concern about possible copyright complications in using the name Iolanthe. It was already the title of a lyrical drama by the Danish playwright Henrik Hertz based on an old story about a blind princess called Yolande. In 1880 an English translation of Hertz's play by W. G. Wills opened in London with the same title and with Ellen Terry and Henry Irving in the leading roles. In a letter written on 13 October 1882, just six weeks before the opera was due to open, Gilbert asked D'Oyly Carte to request permission to use the name from Irving, to whom Wills had sold the rights." (p.364) In other words, there is a direct connection between the play and the operetta. I really don't see any point in a general disambiguation page on the name Yolande et al, since the "Iolanthe" spelling is historically significant as a result of the popularity of the play. A hatnote here seems more sensible, and more useful. I can't understand why there is so much resistance to it. I also think that the information from Bradley should be included in the text. Paul B ( talk) 17:48, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Right-oh guvnah, I bin an dunnit! ( in fact heritis). All teasing aside, this is obviously a rough little first sketch and probably needs references etc. - but at least you can see how it would work. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 05:49, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
[Copied from another talk page] Wikipedians should be skeptical about unreferenced assertions. That's why WP:V and WP:OR are two of our three most important policies. It is clear that "King René's Daughter" was presented by Henry Irving in 1876 (from Irving's correspondence, cited in the " King René's Daughter" article) and that Irving revived it under the name "Iolanthe" - Ainger says this was in 1880. No one has shown that the character of Iolanthe in the G&S opera is supposed to make the audience think of the character in "King René's Daughter". It is just as reasonable to suppose that Gilbert used the name 'despite the fact that Irving had used it so recently. If anyone can find good evidence that Gilbert chose the name to make this connection for his audience, that would be of interest here. All the best. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 17:05, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
User: Lehighlinda added this on 4 August 2012:
As it this addition contains no author/bibliographical details and no indication why the programme is a WP:RS, and is, I think, frankly wrong (see below), I have taken the liberty of moving it here pending examination of the facts and a consensus about how to proceed.
In fact, the change of name was publicly known both in London and New York as early as 4 November, three weeks before the London and New York premieres, which were both on 25 November: see "Music and Musicians", The New York Times, 5 November 1882. The contentions in the Houston programme seem to me inaccurate in every relevant particular. The reason for the temporary title was that Henry Irving held the rights to the title Iolanthe (from an 1880 play of that name by W G Webb) and "Perola" was used until Carte could secure the rights from Irving. (Stedman, p. 190). All views gratefully received. – Tim riley ( talk) 12:28, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
The works of Gilbert and Sullivan ARE operettas, of course, by any sensible definition. But because "operetta" was a naughty word at the time (with some reason!) they were "originally billed" as "comic operas": as a little "no smut here, we're British" signal. We still call them "comic operas" here (I have no idea why, but there you are). This is a shame - but if it were ever to be rectified we would need to get a consensus, and change many entries (consistency is important) not just peck at this one. Sorry... -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 21:57, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
I made these changes at the beginning of the synopsis, intended to remove redundancy and meta-text about the opera, and to streamline the synopsis, but another editor reverted, saying that the redundant language clarifies the time frame. Yet, in the very next sentence we discuss the time frame. Do others have an opinion? -- Ssilvers ( talk) 01:06, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
Does anyone know the story of Iolanthe was contemporary, or whether it is based on some kind of myth or legend? ElectricRay ( talk) 13:43, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
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Please explain why my changes to the first paragraph were reverted. I think it should read like this:
The beloved fairy Iolanthe, who arranged the fairies' songs and dances, committed the capital crime (under fairy law) of marrying a mortal. The Queen of the fairies commuted Iolanthe's sentence of death to banishment for life on the condition that she left her husband and never communicated with him again. After the passage of 25 years, the fairies, still missing Iolanthe deeply, plead with their Queen to pardon her and to restore her place in fairyland ("Tripping hither, tripping thither"). -- April 31st ( talk) 02:02, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
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I changed the last sentence of the intro to weaken the claims made, so I don't think it needs a citation any more. It is a fact that many "G&S fans" (as opposed to the theatregoing public, who are most familiar with the "big 3") think Iolanthe is the best G&S work. This is confirmed by what I would call "mountains of anecdotal evidence" and also by some "polls" taken over the years on Savoynet, the international G&S discussion list (admittedly not a scientifically selected sample of G&S fans). Also, I don't know of anyone who *doesn't* like Iolanthe. It's in everyone's top several, at least. It is just a well-written show. The dialogue and music are consistently engaging, without any "slow" parts of the show. BTW, Iolanthe is not MY favorite (I like Yeomen and Pirates best), and of course it could be said of some of the others that "many G&S fans" like it the best. I think, also, that if you examine the libretto and the score of Iolanthe, as compared with the lib. and scores of the other G&S operas, you will not see a better balanced work, in terms of balance between the male and female characters, the music and the dialogue, the slow and fast numbers, the comic vs. romantic scenes, the pacing of the plot, etc. Unlike say, Utopia, no character gets left behind, no subplot fails to get resolved, and no stone is left unturned by Sir Arthur in his use of musical motifs and clever orchestration to illustrate the meaning of a song. So, to wrap up this longwinded justification, just as we can say that The Mikado, Pinafore and Pirates are "very popular", I think it is fair and true to say that "many G&S fans" find Iolanthe the best and the best balanced G&S show. -- Ssilvers 19:05, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I just did a fairly major re-write on the plot summary. Reading it over, I realized that the summary contained a number of statements that are not supported in the libretto (though they may have applied to a production that the writer was familiar with) and other descriptions that did not follow (or confused) the order of the libretto. -- Ssilvers 01:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I changed Strephon, under "roles" from "bass-baritone" to "baritone". Yes, I know Richard Temple was a bass, but anyone who has sung Strephon knows that Strephon is a baritone. It has high F's (and an optional G) and lots of fairly lyric singing. Yes, it has a low G, but it is not a difficult one, and the tessitura of the role lies right in the middle of the baritone range. I think it is misleading to label it "bass-baritone". Even if Sullivan did so, remember that the lower-sitting "FYFW" has been removed from the role. -- Ssilvers ( talk)
The second paragraph says:
There is no source for the claim that it was the "world's first fairy-tale opera," or that it "...was true enchantment for the audiences." Marc Shepherd 17:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Interesting if we could have chapter and verse for assertion that Fairy Queen's music in Iolanthe makes reference to The Magic Flute. I thought I knew both works well, but blest if I can spot any references from the later to the earlier work. (Regards, Tim.)
I agree with Marc. My references compare Iolanthe to Wagner and other composers, but never to Mozart. I will correct if no one else does.-- Gary 20:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
What on earth does stuff about "fairy-tale operas" have to do with "roles?"
Iolanthe supposedly revealed herself to the L.C. to save him from "bigamy", but bigamy is marrying two wives. What's a child marrying a parent? (besides illegal/etc.) Peter T.S. 03:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Are you SURE that's why Gilbert changed the name? To keep things secret? I was under the impression it was something to do with conflicts with Tchaikovsky's opera of the same name. Adam Cuerden 05:32, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree that "Perola" does not musically fit where the fairies sing "Iolanthe" early in Act I. However, it was my understanding that that was sung, in rehearsal, as "Oh Perola". I suggest deleting the part about how it doesn't fit--after all, it was clearly sung in the early part of rehearsals as "Perola", fit or no fit.-- Gary 22:40, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
It's laughable that Tchaikovsky's Iolanta should enter into this discussion of the opera's name: Iolanta was given its first performance only in 1892. See Grove's New Dictionary of Opera sub Iolanta.
Again, I find myself with the difficult task of trying to divide an Act I finale into sections. Iolanthe's Act I Finale is so complicated that I've just put a waiver saying that it has other parts too and let it stand with a few of the sections that have an obvious first line to quote - this may not be ideal. In fact, it isn't. Help! Adam Cuerden 12:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I think "lout" is the usual title of this section and gives some flavor of what's going on in the section. One could make a case for just saying "Young Strephon", because both men and women sing this, but I think the lout alternative is more descriptive. -- Ssilvers 17:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Arr, tricky, then. Savoynet poll, perhaps? If the name is divided roughly on gender lines, it's probably worth giving both names. Adam Cuerden 13:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, the track listing of a recording is a more reliable source than a Savoynet poll. This particular section simply doesn't have a "standard" name, probably because multiple texts are being sung at once. I would go with "With Strephon for your foe." Marc Shepherd 16:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think your recollection is right. Also, Schirmer has some variations from the authentic text in the Act I finale, particlualry the "P-A-R liament" and "You GO sky high", but these are fairly well known (and easy to mark in one's score). Plus, Schirmer contains the dialogue, which Chappell does not. In rehearsal, the convenience of having a score with dialogue should not be underestimated. In Buxton, the Brits were constantly trying to juggle two books. -- Ssilvers 19:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Is it worth mentioning this is a reprise of "If you go in" or is this pointless? I have added such mentions to, for instance, Princess Ida, so if this is undesirable, I'd like to know before I spread it further. Adam Cuerden 15:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I would not mention it. There are lots of reprises in G&S, and not just in finales. We are listing musical numbers, not analyzing them. The proposed standard for the opera articles has a heading for "Musical Elements" where the musical structure of each work can be described. It has yet to be populated for any opera, because we're still working on more basic stuff. Marc Shepherd 16:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, FWIW, I think we're going the wrong direction when we bulk-up the lists of roles and musical numbers with footnotes and explanations. These matters are better described in other sections. Marc Shepherd 19:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
What if we just add (reprise of x)? Isn't this standard in theatre programs that give a list of numbers? If you say this, I don't think you need any more explanation. -- Ssilvers 20:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Can anybody discern a reference to either of the Queen of the Night's arias in any of the Fairy Queen's music? Somebody seems to think so - see The Magic Flute#Trivia. I've stuck a "citation needed" there, but thought I'd ask here before deleting it out of hand. -- GuillaumeTell 11:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it's worth mentioning that Iolanthe's appeal to the Lord Chancellor is initially made in disguise, and that he listens to it and is visibly moved; only after he masters himself and reiterates his determination to marry Phyllis himself does Iolanthe unveil, sacrificing herself "for him, for her, for thee". The last part, I take it, is that in addition to making Strephon and Phyllis unhappy, the Chancellor is otherwise about to commit bigamy. G&S often introduce a note of genuine pathos and Iolanthe revealing herself as the chorus of invisible fairies beg her not to certainly qualifies (even tho' W Schwenk is about to conjure a rabbit out of the hat, as usual). Captain Pedant 12:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC) (sometime Strephon and Mountararat)
Done. Legally speaking, of course, the Chancellor's marriage to Phyllis would have been "presumptively valid" by reason of Iolanthe's long desertion, and "conclusively void" only on her reappearance. But by the rules of classic tragedy, he'd have been as guilty as Oedipus even though just as ignorant of the true facts. I like G&S but can only really pronounce on the operettas I've been in :) Captain Pedant 14:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, it just got longer and longer. I have simplified and shortened it, and I think it's perfectly clear now. As for the LC saying "a single word will do it", it's not a question of precision, it's a question of how to deliver the joke. Jokes have to be simple, and in any event, all we need to do in the synopsis is to describe what happens in the play. If you want to explain to the reader why Gilbert was wrong about something, you need to do that in an "analysis" section of the article, and you need to reference it with citations. -- Ssilvers 16:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't see how it makes sense to move the Capt Shaw info from where it was. The first paragraph under "Background" is all about things that happened on opening night. This leads into discussion of the text, the issue regarding the name and then historical context. -- Ssilvers 03:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I would be open to re-ordering the whole section, but I can't see separating the Capt Shaw sentences from the other sentences about opening night. I don't think it's jarring in that paragraph, because it is an example of what the topic sentence of the paragraph is discussing, and it doesn't belong anywhere else in the paragraph. One could certainly argue that the whole section should be chronological, or organized in another way. There are several different issues discussed in the section, and all of them come under the general heading of "background", but I don't think you could write an introductory paragraph that ties the whole section together. As I say above, I think the section makes reasonable sense the way it is. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 12:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I consolidated the most "analytical" paragraphs into an "analysis" section. Hope that helps. --
Ssilvers 02:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Is it worth having in the article that the drunken robot in the Asimov story quotes from the Nightmare song? It is a while since I read the short story, but it does spout off from several G&S operettas, as SSilvers' edit notes. Why should this be in Iolanthe, then? Why not in the G&S article? If the robot quotes from several works, are we putting that in each work he quotes from? Better to put it, if at all, in the G&S article.-- Wehwalt ( talk) 21:08, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Probably silly, but I came to see how "Iolanthe" is pronounced. A phonetic spelling at the start of the article may be helpful to some.
Why is there a link to Mount Ararat in the see also section? Could this have been overlooked plausible vandalism? DFH ( talk) 15:47, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
That is what "See also" is for: links to articles that are only peripherally related to the subject but have a connection like this. I think it's perfect as is. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 17:57, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Apropos of the recent reversion, while the TV character Reggie Perrin may or may not in the present context be notable, the reverted contribution by an anonymous contributor is accurate, except for spelling David Nobbs's name wrongly. Tim riley ( talk) 18:14, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
If memory serves, Reggie ended up with Iolanthe as his middle name because his parents were performing in a production of the opera that year, not because he was born during a performance. He also mentions that if he'd been born a year later, he would have had a different G&S opera (Pirates of Penzance(?)) instead. Alas, I have only my memory to go on, and would rather have a cite before making the change. If somebody can track one down, feel free to add the information. JDZeff ( talk) 14:05, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
What is going on here? Is London mythological? (And, looking at the category, in what way are the settings of The Gondoliers, Princess Ida and The Grand Duke mythological? The category description refers to mythology and folklore - there's no mention of countries invented by opera librettists. -- Guillaume Tell 22:38, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Well, Act I of Iolanthe is set in " An Arcadian Landscape", and fairies are myth/folklore, so I'd say both Thespis and Iolanthe qualify. I agree about Gondos/Utopia/GD/Ida, but: Is it possible that the category description is too narrow? Should it be expanded to mythology, folklore AND fictional settings? -- Ssilvers ( talk) 14:35, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Note that Shsilver and I are two different editors, despite our similar usernames. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 15:09, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
The category as it stands is curiously underpopulated (which is one reason why the G&S stuff sticks out). It's a sub-category of Category:Operas by setting, but many of the country categories there also look underpopulated - it's as if whoever started doing the categorising got fed up or went off to do something else. However, Category:Operas based on Greco-Roman mythology is very well-populated, but that's a sub-cat of Category:operas by theme. Anyway, given that the category that we're discussing states "This category contains a list of operas set in mythological lands or based on non-geographical folklores", and most of the G&S operas mentioned above don't fit into either of these definitions (especially if you follow the links - and you should!), then Something Needs To Be Done. Maybe I'll mention this debate at WikiProject Opera. -- Guillaume Tell 19:06, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
In the trivia section there is currently a disagreement over whether Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" sci-fi books were based on Iolanthe. I suggest that if the statement is retained Asimov's statement about his inspiration should be spelled out in full, as at present its tangential relevance to the opera is misleading. Tim riley ( talk) 16:25, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
The disambiguation hatnote for Tchaikovski's "Iolanta" is based on the similarity of the name (and, in theory at least, to avoid confusion arising from this similarity). There is no other connection (for instance the plot is completely different - the heroine is a fairy rather than a blind princess etc.) So while the play on which the Tchkovsky work is based is relevant to that work - its connection to Gilbert & Sullivan's "Iolanthe" is extremely tenuous. IMHO, anyway -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 20:12, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
It's the origin of the name "Iolanthe". "Iolanthe" is the Danish version of the name Yolante, which was used directly in translations of the play, which was enormously popular at the time. It was also often performed in English under the title "Iolanthe". [1] (eg the 1876 benefit performance for Irving [2]). So, indeed, was the opera. [3] The name is not "similar" it was in fact the same. It's just a modern convention that the opera is now known as "Iolanta" or "Yolanta". The fact that the play is little known nowadays is irrelevant. We are supposed to be expanding knowledge, not maintaining ignorance. The link is not tenuous. It is central. [4] All audiences at the time would have associated the parody of magical enchanted figures with the well-known play and opera. The figure of Iolanthe is a joke derived from the "magical romance" genre initiated by the play. Also, I see nothing in the WP:OVERLINK guidelines that is relevant here. They are essentially about avoiding turning every other word in an article blue, not about adding content. Paul B ( talk) 12:55, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
[Left] The article on the play does indeed say that it is an alternative title (though not in the lede). I have provided links to evidence of that fact. Just click on them. That's what they are there for. As I wrote, "though officially titled "King Rene's Daughter", was often performed under the name "Iolanthe", and was so in the years just before the G&S work was created [that is, in the late 1870s]." I don't know why I have to keep repeating that fact. It's quite simple. "King Rene's Daughter" was also known as "Iolanthe". Of course the G&S operetta should be the primary page. It's much better known. If there is a disamb page it should be linked from this one. However, it is very common to have two links in hatnotes, so I don't see the problem. It might also be possible to add content about the source of the name in this article if it can be properly sourced. Paul B ( talk) 21:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I already linked to evidence of Irving's performance in my first post on this page. There was also an adapted version by Wills that was performed under that name. In response to Soundofmusicals, whether it is mentioned in the lede of the KRD article or not is utterly irrelevent. That's an issue for how that article is written, not to whether or not there should be a link here. I am beginning to wonder if Soundofmusicals actually reads what I write. I said very clearly "The article on the play does indeed say that it is an alternative title (though not in the lede)." I cannot understand the point of this persistent resort to irrelevance. What matters is whether a reader, looking for the article, might type in that title. Also, we are supposed to be adding useful material, not suppressing it. To be frank, I am getting sick of Soundofmusicals's patronising tone. I know perfectly well what hatnotes are for. I have been around in Wikipedia a lot longer than you have. Also I am a professional specialist in Victorian culture, having written and edited numerous books and articles on the topic. Just type "Paul Barlow" and "Victorian" into google. I don't need to be told about the Savoy operas or the context of theatrical culture at the time. Paul B ( talk) 17:36, 11 January 2012 (UTC) I quote from Ian Bradley's The Complete Annotated Gilbert and Sullivan (1995), OUP. "There may also have been some concern about possible copyright complications in using the name Iolanthe. It was already the title of a lyrical drama by the Danish playwright Henrik Hertz based on an old story about a blind princess called Yolande. In 1880 an English translation of Hertz's play by W. G. Wills opened in London with the same title and with Ellen Terry and Henry Irving in the leading roles. In a letter written on 13 October 1882, just six weeks before the opera was due to open, Gilbert asked D'Oyly Carte to request permission to use the name from Irving, to whom Wills had sold the rights." (p.364) In other words, there is a direct connection between the play and the operetta. I really don't see any point in a general disambiguation page on the name Yolande et al, since the "Iolanthe" spelling is historically significant as a result of the popularity of the play. A hatnote here seems more sensible, and more useful. I can't understand why there is so much resistance to it. I also think that the information from Bradley should be included in the text. Paul B ( talk) 17:48, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Right-oh guvnah, I bin an dunnit! ( in fact heritis). All teasing aside, this is obviously a rough little first sketch and probably needs references etc. - but at least you can see how it would work. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 05:49, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
[Copied from another talk page] Wikipedians should be skeptical about unreferenced assertions. That's why WP:V and WP:OR are two of our three most important policies. It is clear that "King René's Daughter" was presented by Henry Irving in 1876 (from Irving's correspondence, cited in the " King René's Daughter" article) and that Irving revived it under the name "Iolanthe" - Ainger says this was in 1880. No one has shown that the character of Iolanthe in the G&S opera is supposed to make the audience think of the character in "King René's Daughter". It is just as reasonable to suppose that Gilbert used the name 'despite the fact that Irving had used it so recently. If anyone can find good evidence that Gilbert chose the name to make this connection for his audience, that would be of interest here. All the best. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 17:05, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
User: Lehighlinda added this on 4 August 2012:
As it this addition contains no author/bibliographical details and no indication why the programme is a WP:RS, and is, I think, frankly wrong (see below), I have taken the liberty of moving it here pending examination of the facts and a consensus about how to proceed.
In fact, the change of name was publicly known both in London and New York as early as 4 November, three weeks before the London and New York premieres, which were both on 25 November: see "Music and Musicians", The New York Times, 5 November 1882. The contentions in the Houston programme seem to me inaccurate in every relevant particular. The reason for the temporary title was that Henry Irving held the rights to the title Iolanthe (from an 1880 play of that name by W G Webb) and "Perola" was used until Carte could secure the rights from Irving. (Stedman, p. 190). All views gratefully received. – Tim riley ( talk) 12:28, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
The works of Gilbert and Sullivan ARE operettas, of course, by any sensible definition. But because "operetta" was a naughty word at the time (with some reason!) they were "originally billed" as "comic operas": as a little "no smut here, we're British" signal. We still call them "comic operas" here (I have no idea why, but there you are). This is a shame - but if it were ever to be rectified we would need to get a consensus, and change many entries (consistency is important) not just peck at this one. Sorry... -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 21:57, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
I made these changes at the beginning of the synopsis, intended to remove redundancy and meta-text about the opera, and to streamline the synopsis, but another editor reverted, saying that the redundant language clarifies the time frame. Yet, in the very next sentence we discuss the time frame. Do others have an opinion? -- Ssilvers ( talk) 01:06, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
Does anyone know the story of Iolanthe was contemporary, or whether it is based on some kind of myth or legend? ElectricRay ( talk) 13:43, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
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Please explain why my changes to the first paragraph were reverted. I think it should read like this:
The beloved fairy Iolanthe, who arranged the fairies' songs and dances, committed the capital crime (under fairy law) of marrying a mortal. The Queen of the fairies commuted Iolanthe's sentence of death to banishment for life on the condition that she left her husband and never communicated with him again. After the passage of 25 years, the fairies, still missing Iolanthe deeply, plead with their Queen to pardon her and to restore her place in fairyland ("Tripping hither, tripping thither"). -- April 31st ( talk) 02:02, 8 March 2020 (UTC)