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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 00:17, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
"Buchenwälder Schlampe" does indeed translate as "Buchenwald Bitch/slut" but it seems to appear only in non-German texts (at least on Google), raising the suspicion that it is simply a translation back into German of the liberal and alliterative translation of Hexe to Bitch rather than Witch. I propose that the phrase "Buchenwälder Schlampe" be quarantined to the talk page unless someone can find evidence of its use in German. Fine to leave "bitch" in English (or Polish if that's an accurate translation of what she was called by Polish inmates. Coughinink 03:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
As to her nick-name, I'm absolutely sure that the correct term was "The Bitch of Buchenwald", not the "Witch of Buchenwald". At least the Polish inmates report the "Suka z Buchenwaldu" name. Halibutt 15:21, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
If I may add, I wonder if "Bitch of Buchenwald" is even accurate, because "Schlampe" does *not* mean "bitch", it means "whore" or "slut". I saw another woman Nazi named the "Bitch of xyz" in another article on Wikipedia. Is this even necessary to include? After all, the people in the camp didn't speak english. I'm tempted to just edit this out since it doesn't add much to the article. Dailycyclist 01:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)Dailycyclist
It was never proofed that she had possessed lampshades from human skin or that the family dinner table was decorated with shrunken human heads. She was not convicted for those things. She was only convicted for his sadism against prinsoners. -- 217.247.10.83 09:45, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
How in the hell is this academic? Human lampshades, please. Give me a break. Im not a Nazi but THAT is just stupid.
Furthermore, Koch did not walk out of the camp as you claim, but was arrested with her husband in 1943 for imbezzlement, this indeed ended her tenure there.
What frustrates me about articles like this is that we never really gain any insight into the minds of these "monsters." Why was Ilsa so sadistic when other people are revulsed by her actions? Was it her upbringing, her mental state or some other reason? Surely some psychological research was undertaken if she lived into the 1960s.
I mean, I am aware of Stanley Milgram's work but has there been a look at individual Nazis to understand why certain individuals were so fanatical that they wanted to genocide a whole race? It would help our understanding to prevent this type of thing happening again.
Are we sure that the photograph is really of "Collection of prisoners' tattoos "? These definitely appear to be anatomical samples but most of them look more like organs of some sort than skin samples; the one at center-left appears to be a kidney, the one at top-center appears to be a heart. The others may be possibly be a lung, liver, intestines, etc. I really don't see anything that appears to be a skin sample with a tatoo on it. A similar photograph in one of the articles linked at the article's end simply states "human remains" with a purported lampshade with human skin (no tatoos). Is there a reliable caption we can reference? - JoeConsumer 05/09/06
Like much - most - all - of the Nazi atrocities, when original material ever is tested it turns out to be more legend than fact. The US general who commuted her life sentence to 4 years stated that there was never any lampshade or other evidence every even mentioned at any trial. Her second trial was demanded by political pressure, not evidence. She probably was not a nice lady though -
"the truth will suffice" - I don't think we should go that far. If we only use the truth, well the story about Ilse will either be very short or very sympathetic. Even mentioning her husband ( hung by the Nazis for corruption ) might show that the Nazis wouldn't stand for maltreatment of prisoners,etc. We are backed into a corner - anyway to just delete the whole article?( someone might read it 100 years from now and wonder how off the beam we were) 159.105.80.63 18:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
http://www.fatherryan.org/holocaust/buchen/Ilsekoch.htm
http://www.justiceatdachau.com/bio.htm
-- Homer slips. 02:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Great sites!-- Nikki Fagin 18:00, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Shame on the people who employ shoddy scholarship and repeat unverified stories. Please read the Straight Dope's excellent research on the topic of "lampshades". (Also, you might want to use your critical thinking skills and not just believe every tall tale automatically - why would someone who hates Jews want a lampshade made of the skin of a person they find despicable and "defile" their house with it?) Just because someone writes something, doesn't make it true, and unlike the Holocaust itself, there's not one shred of solid evidence for this bizarre claim.
The memoria´s museum had one on display in 1980. It was not made of patches of skin, as one might expect, but it was woven of narrow stripes of what looked like white, untattooed skin. If this was a fake, it was a good one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.50.119.52 ( talk) 10:17:12, August 19, 2007 (UTC)
I beg to differ. In the early 1970's I worked declassifying WWII in the national records center of the National Archives in the US. There we came up the Koch file which included lampshades and other items that appeared to be made of human body parts. I am not a forensic specialist, but I saw what I saw and touched what I touched. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eric111 ( talk • contribs) 06:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I also disagree. There is a documentary on the "Nazi Hunters" made in 2010 where footage of the lampshades and tattoos are shown. I don't agree with the statement that because we have may no evidence TODAY, that Koch could not have done this evil deed. The sentence with "urban legend" in it should be stricken IMHO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tpkatsa ( talk • contribs) 19:49, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
It is an absolute lie and pure revisionism to suggest that human-skin lamp shades are an "urban legend," and did not occur. Archives of video evidence taken by the liberators both discuss and show such proof. For instance, the footage by Norman Krasna (viewable at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8b3_1283888983) shows just such lamps. Clearly Wikipedia does not take facts as seriously as opinions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.131.122.144 ( talk) 09:26, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
To what end? The war was already over by the time all of these details came out, how would it serve the US to fabricate such things? 124.169.15.72 ( talk) 14:48, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Are there any modern forensic tests have done on the lampshades nowadays? Or all of them were lost in history? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gdgzfallen ( talk • contribs) 19:47, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
If the lamp shades were in the National Archives, we only have to go there and find them and have them tested. I doubt they would be destroyed.
2601:181:8301:4510:98B6:290A:3912:880D (
talk) 02:55, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
Whether those items were really evidence of atrocities involving human body parts or not, is immaterial as far as this entry goes as at the time of her trials they were presented as real evidence. (However, I have read that those items were acquired from a nearby university to be used for propaganda purposes. I also don't hear or read much in the mainstream media about these things anymore, which leads me to believe that their origins were unsubstantiated, and folks have decided to let it drop. The story of their origins in itself would be an interesting topic. If they were not the evidence they were purported to be, the who, what, when, where and why would be fascinating to know. If genuine, one would think they would be prominently displayed in a Holocaust museum somewhere as evidence. Also, DNA extractions could possibly be done to hopefully inform family members of the fate of their loved ones. If they were deemed to be "safe" for the viewing by general audiences in newsreels presented to millions of people at theaters, and later on in television documentaries, there should be no squeamishness or concerns of impropriety about presenting them as a display for the public. Very strange.) 2603:9000:CF0A:5F00:E0CE:1464:5D72:4320 ( talk) 13:04, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
The German version of this article on de.wikipedia claims her only son, Artwin, committed suicide at a very young age. So how did she write a letter to him before she took her own life in 1967? -- 67.149.150.252 ( talk) 05:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Although this woman was clearly horrible, Wikipedia has to remain impartial! The very first sentence in this article surely can't contain bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.152.172.176 ( talk) 21:47, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Ilse Koch has not been a guard in a concentration camp and not chief overseer (Oberaufseherin) in Buchenwald. In the 2 family-photo-albums (National Archives and Records Service, Washington) there is not 1 picture of her in uniform. ( Photo Gallery, DVD, “The Bitch of Buchenwald” (artsmagic.com); fpp.co.uk/docs/controversies/humanskin; and National Archives, Washington (photographs relating to the Third German Reich-Publication number M1137).
It was neither Ilse Koch who ordered to build an indoor sports arena, but this decision was made by the SS-administration in Berlin.
She was not at all a prominent nazi, only member of the NSDAP since 1932 as many other Germans.
An SS-investigation resulted in death penalty for her husband (who was executed by the SS a week before the arrival of the American army), but Ilse Koch was acquitted.
During her trial at Dachau by an American court, there were a lot of survivor accounts accusing her of abuse of prisoners and sadistic behavior, but these accusations were not taken seriously, what made the Military American Governor General Lucius D. Clay do feel that she was unjustly sentenced and commuted her sentence to four years. “The most serious charges were based on hearsay and not on factual evidence…There was no convincing evidence.” (Lucius D. Clay, An American Life, Jean Edward Smith, 1990) (Decision in Germany, 1950, p. 254). “We tried Ilse Koch (…) It turned out actually that it was goat skin. But at the trial it was still human flesh. It was almost impossible for her to have gotten a fair trial” (1976 Interview with George C. Marshall Foundation, Virginia)
The “New York Herald Tribune” sent Germany-correspondent, Edwin C. Hartrich, to investigate and explore the court acts. He looks into thousands of pages and comments finally: “The Ilse-Koch-case is a first-hand model of war propaganda which could not been kept under control. The Americans (…) became victims of their own black propaganda, and after tried it to authenticate it in court. Denson and his colleagues tried desperately to proof this ‘facts’, which could not be proved at all.”
During the trial the Prosecutor, Lt. Colonel William D. Denson, could not introduce the notorious lampshade(s), gloves and photo-albums, made of tattooed human skin, although the National Archives mentioned September 28, 1973 : “…In the process of reviewing the records of the United States Army Judge Advocate General for the years 1939-1948, we have found (…) two photo albums which apparently figured in the prosecution’s case in FRG Box 1089 in this record group”. The Prosecutor apparently was having the albums, which were proof of the innocence of Ilse Koch, and for that reason was hidden them. During the cross-examination the defense-lawyer Emmanuel Lewis asked the Prosecution to introduce at least one ‘corpus delicti’ as evidence, and the Prosecutor answered: “There is nothing more that we would like to do, but unfortunately the people who have these items in their custody, went home and it is impossible to find out where this evidence is in this moment”. (Der Spiegel, 7/1950)
Ilse Koch was again sentenced to life-imprisonment on January 15, 1951 by a German court, for “one count of incitement to murder, one of incitement to attempted murder, five of incitement to severe physical mistreatment of prisoners, and two of physical mistreatment”. “The court found no proof that anyone at Buchenwald had been murdered for his tattooed skin (…)”
Ilse Koch was mother of Karl Koch’s 3 children, Artwin, Gisela and Gudrun and give birth in Dachau-prison to Uwe. The father of Uwe might have been the American interrogator Josef Kirschbaum. (Innocent at Dachau, Joseph Halow, 1992, p. 248). Artwin committed suicide. “The odium against his parents and the shame of his mother’s trial had overwhelmed him (Die Hexe von Buchenwald, Smith Arthur lee). Gudrun died a few months after birth. The whereabouts of Gisela and Uwe are not known. (siegfriedverbeke@hotmail.com) 9/12/2009.
After the trial was remitted under worldwide media attention, survivor accounts of her resulted in other authors describing her abuse of prisoners as "sadistic"; a shadow image as "concentration camp murderess" transfixed itself to post-war German society.
My biggest problem with wiki articles is that they almost always completely fail to "invite" the reader to continue reading. The above is the worst example I've found yet. I read these discussion pages and people besiege the most inane minutae, but completely ignore the most basic fundamentals of lexigraphical adeptitude.
Jonny Quick ( talk) 05:16, 8 April 2010 (UTC)Jonny Quick
'She was one of the first prominent Nazis to be tried by the US military.'
I think you mean trialed but I am not sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AntonHogervorst ( talk • contribs) 09:44, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
No, it's actually correct, see http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/try (under number 4). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.232.64.214 ( talk) 10:34, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
It is amateurisch, there's plenty of books on Buchenwald and the Kochs -- Alexandre Rongellion ( talk) 23:32, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Better English language speculations than authoritative source? Xx236 ( talk) 07:26, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
the article states "...Through some friends in the SA and SS, she met Karl Otto Koch in 1934, marrying him two years later..." i went on page with information about Karl Otto Koch and found great differences in dates and where both were - it seems to me that Ilse and Otto Karl were separated, when Karl Otto Koch was transferred from Buchenwald: "...On August 1, 1937, he was given command of the new concentration camp at Buchenwald. He remained at Buchenwald until September 1941, when he was transferred to the Majdanek concentration camp for POWs. That was largely due to an investigation based on allegations of his improper conduct at Buchenwald, which included corruption, fraud, embezzlement, drunkenness, sexual offences and a murder. Koch commanded the Majdanek camp for only one year; he was relieved from his duties after 86 Soviet POWs escaped from the camp in August 1942. Koch was charged with criminal negligence and transferred to Berlin, where he worked at the SS Personalhauptamt and as a liaison between the SS and the German Post-Office..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Otto_Koch "...In 1936 she began working as a guard and secretary at the Sachsenhausen concentration camp near Berlin, which her fiancé commanded, and was married the same year. In 1937 she came to Buchenwald when her husband was made Commandant.[9] In 1940, she built an indoor sports arena, which cost over 250,000 reichsmarks (approximately $62,500), most of which had been seized from the inmates. In 1941 Karl Otto Koch was transferred to Lublin, where he helped establish the Majdanek concentration and extermination camp. Ilse Koch remained at Buchenwald until 24 August 1943, when she and her husband were arrested on the orders of Josias von Waldeck-Pyrmont, SS and Police Leader for Weimar, who had supervisory authority over Buchenwald. The charges against the Kochs comprised private enrichment, embezzlement, and the murder of prisoners to prevent them giving testimony.[10] Ilse Koch was imprisoned until 1944 when she was acquitted for lack of evidence, but her husband was found guilty and sentenced to death by an SS court in Munich, and was executed by shooting in Buchenwald in April 1945. She went to live with her surviving family in the town of Ludwigsburg, where she was arrested by U.S. authorities on 30 June 1945..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilse_Koch this discrepancy tells me that either husband and wife divorced OR that another man who came instead of Karl Otto Koch was left in history under the name of original husband, which is a fraud that needs to be corrected on Wikipedia and other archives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.242.161.27 ( talk) 23:24, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
The article mentions "Karl and Ilse Koch had two sons, including one who committed suicide after the war." However on Karl's page it is stated that on "May 25, 1936 Koch married Ilse Koch née Margarete Ilse Köhler, with whom he had a son and two daughters." Both is hardly possible. Is there somebody able to rectify this? Mregelsberger ( talk) 14:12, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
the article states "...Through some friends in the SA and SS, she met Karl Otto Koch in 1934, marrying him two years later..." i went on page with information about Karl Otto Koch and found great differences in dates and where both were - it seems to me that Ilse and Otto Karl were separated, when Karl Otto Koch was transferred from Buchenwald: "...On August 1, 1937, he was given command of the new concentration camp at Buchenwald. He remained at Buchenwald until September 1941, when he was transferred to the Majdanek concentration camp for POWs. That was largely due to an investigation based on allegations of his improper conduct at Buchenwald, which included corruption, fraud, embezzlement, drunkenness, sexual offences and a murder. Koch commanded the Majdanek camp for only one year; he was relieved from his duties after 86 Soviet POWs escaped from the camp in August 1942. Koch was charged with criminal negligence and transferred to Berlin, where he worked at the SS Personalhauptamt and as a liaison between the SS and the German Post-Office..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Otto_Koch "...In 1936 she began working as a guard and secretary at the Sachsenhausen concentration camp near Berlin, which her fiancé commanded, and was married the same year. In 1937 she came to Buchenwald when her husband was made Commandant.[9] In 1940, she built an indoor sports arena, which cost over 250,000 reichsmarks (approximately $62,500), most of which had been seized from the inmates. In 1941 Karl Otto Koch was transferred to Lublin, where he helped establish the Majdanek concentration and extermination camp. Ilse Koch remained at Buchenwald until 24 August 1943, when she and her husband were arrested on the orders of Josias von Waldeck-Pyrmont, SS and Police Leader for Weimar, who had supervisory authority over Buchenwald. The charges against the Kochs comprised private enrichment, embezzlement, and the murder of prisoners to prevent them giving testimony.[10] Ilse Koch was imprisoned until 1944 when she was acquitted for lack of evidence, but her husband was found guilty and sentenced to death by an SS court in Munich, and was executed by shooting in Buchenwald in April 1945. She went to live with her surviving family in the town of Ludwigsburg, where she was arrested by U.S. authorities on 30 June 1945..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilse_Koch this discrepancy tells me that either husband and wife divorced OR that another man who came instead of Karl Otto Koch was left in history under the name of original husband, which is a fraud that needs to be corrected on Wikipedia and other archives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inna Maria Swann ( talk • contribs) 23:37, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
I started looking at this:
"Another son, conceived in her prison cell at Dachau by an unknown father, was born in the Aichach prison near Dachau, where she was sent to serve her life sentence, and was immediately taken from her. At the age of 19, he learned that Koch was his mother and began visiting her regularly at Aichach. They had a good relationship and Koch wrote poetry for him.
Which doesn't really make sense -- she committed suicide about (the dates in the article aren't precise) 20 years after the son would have been born.
Then I noticed that this talk page discusses some earlier weird references to the son.
Googling around a bit (how I got interested in this person to begin with), she's apparently an utterly fascinating character. A mystery wrapped in an enigma, and all that. Apparently multiple affairs, the husband may have been gay, the father of at least one son seems to have been Jewish...
All I'm saying is, this seems to be a very notable person, and there seems to be a lot of fascinating material that could be added here. I'm not going to attempt it because I don't have the expertise in the subject matter. But it would be great if we could find someone who did.
Djcheburashka ( talk) 14:50, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
I removed the internal link, since it mistakenly lead to the EP "At War" by a Brazilian death metal band, not the page of the American band At War, which currently has no English wikipedia entry. 12:08, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
As of now, the section on "War crimes" does not display or touch any war crime at all. If anybody cares for this article, I really hope they can/will supply proper information and referrence on this particular subject. RhinoMind ( talk) 01:24, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
This article paints a completely different picture compared to Lampshades_made_from_human_skin#Nazi_era. Incidentally, that article seems to mysteriously have longer quotes and sources not found in this article. I can only assume that one of these two articles have been carefully crafted to present a certain agenda. A clever man might think that it's the one with removed sources and shortened quotes but I wouldn't dare to draw such conclusions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:2002:4E44:2B65:CA2:4306:433B:1353 ( talk) 19:07, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
The contributor who handled a purported human-skin-lampshade would have contaminated the evidence with his own DNA. Nonetheless it would certainly be presently possible to determine whether the object was human skin or most likely, ordinary animal skin parchment, used as writing material then recycled to provide a lampshade. It would be possible to determine the individual who originally owned the skin. About five years ago I searched the Internet and discovered that such animal-parchment-covered lampshades continue to be manufactured.
The 'human-skin-lampshade' would be primary evidence of murder and as such ought to be handed to police for modernforensic testing. If the lampshade (if it still exists!) is tested and found to be merely ordinary parchment (sheep/goatsetc.) then it would be evidence that, as usual, people have falsely smeared the Germans - falsely accusing someone of a crime, which is itself a crime. Has the evidence been destroyed? That would also be a criminal offense.
The most likely possibility is that the lampshades, like the 'shrunken heads' are as intentionally fraudulent as the numerous other props and fake photographs that smeared the Germans during and after WW2 and WW1. Recall that WW1 was restarted at the end of 1916 and early 1917 and soldiers were recruited to prevent the barbarous Germans from eating Belgian babies and raping nuns (WW1 was the 'war to prevent cannibalism'). Telling Lies about the Germans is a sport. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.144.96.231 ( talk) 22:35, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Josef Kirschbaum is known for his statement to his client named Einstein: "How can we bring this pig to the gallows for murdering your brother if you are so stupid as to bring your brother into this courtroom!" Moreover he aught to have been disbarred because of his scandalous relationship with the accused Ilse Koch. Can we imagine any other case where such conduct would be allowed today? Also, the 2,400 Jewish attendees at the Nuremberg trials should have refused to take part in the trials. Instead, they immorally acted as biased prosecutors in their own case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.144.96.231 ( talk) 22:49, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
The American twelfth Army report, 'Buchenwald: A preliminary Report', established that most of the people who died under the Germans were killed by the communists within the camp - they decided who would receive food. Images of the inmates at the time of their liberation presented them as fit and healthy. As I understand it, when the liberated the camp, the Russians killed more Germans there than had died under the German rule. Note that the liberators found a thousand Hungarian Jewish children playing happily. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.144.96.231 ( talk) 22:58, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Was Ilse Koch a patient in the T4 program since she was psychotic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.40.192.91 ( talk) 03:30, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
OK to add this information?
References
It would be good to add in a Propaganda section.
2601:181:8301:4510:98B6:290A:3912:880D ( talk) 03:04, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
@ Jack90s15: What is the relevance, here, of a photo depicting preserved human organs removed from prisoners during medical experiments conducted in Buchenwald concentration camp ? Ilse Koch is associated with the collecting of tattooed skins, not of internal organs or nazi human experimentation ? BeatrixBelibaste ( talk) 17:04, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
@ BeatrixBelibaste: She was involved in the evil things that were going on,
In Hitler's Shadow: Post-War Germany & the Girls of the BDM https://books.google.com/books?id=ecOIDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT270&lpg=PT270&dq=internal+organs++++Ilse+Koch+Buchenwald+concentration+camp&source=bl&ots=Ku7W-kK5o5&sig=ACfU3U0FAUph9_63Lid6FFWBeEwCgQyIEQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKupaf9YzkAhWJjlkKHfSmDBMQ6AEwEHoECA0QAQ#v=onepage&q=internal%20organs%20%20%20%20Ilse%20Koch%20Buchenwald%20concentration%20camp&f=false
Maybe we reword the picture to?
Collection of prisoners' internal organs, human experimentation happened under Ilse Koch at Buchenwald . Jack90s15 ( talk) 17:30, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
Two sources of her sone Uwe are provided, but both are tagged as unrealiable (although one is more 'questionable' thatn unrealiable). Why keep the second of the two up (since April 2016)? Can a quicck Google search on her prison-conceived son yield reputable results? NotPeterParker ( talk) 08:30, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Hi All,
I'm very frustrated by the wealth of disinformation that this entry contains - that she had a position as a guard at Sachsenhausen, that she followed Karl to Majdanek, that she had four children, that she herself was engaged in experiments, that she was prosecuted by Kunzig (who was actually assistant prosecutor) rather than William Denson, the list goes on and on. I wish I was more conversant with adding/editing content here. I've fixed the biggest howling errors quickly, but not sure they will stick. If anyone is interested, my new book on Ilse Koch will be published by Harvard Press this month. It is based on ten years of archival research and interviews with her daughter, etc. I hope it will help to set the record straight, because the information on this Wiki page is so horribly wrong (though in some cases understandably so, as it quotes sources that themselves are wrong). https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674249189 Tomazjardim ( talk) 18:27, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
Were they for real (proven as such) or were they false? It appears a lot of storytelling was in the accusations against here. Kind of a mass-hysteria in the later 1940s that made people believe the most absurd stories. But should that form our historiography. 105.0.7.63 ( talk) 13:44, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on January 15, 2016, January 15, 2018, and January 15, 2021. |
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 March 2020 and 4 May 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Awoodenxula.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 00:17, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
"Buchenwälder Schlampe" does indeed translate as "Buchenwald Bitch/slut" but it seems to appear only in non-German texts (at least on Google), raising the suspicion that it is simply a translation back into German of the liberal and alliterative translation of Hexe to Bitch rather than Witch. I propose that the phrase "Buchenwälder Schlampe" be quarantined to the talk page unless someone can find evidence of its use in German. Fine to leave "bitch" in English (or Polish if that's an accurate translation of what she was called by Polish inmates. Coughinink 03:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
As to her nick-name, I'm absolutely sure that the correct term was "The Bitch of Buchenwald", not the "Witch of Buchenwald". At least the Polish inmates report the "Suka z Buchenwaldu" name. Halibutt 15:21, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
If I may add, I wonder if "Bitch of Buchenwald" is even accurate, because "Schlampe" does *not* mean "bitch", it means "whore" or "slut". I saw another woman Nazi named the "Bitch of xyz" in another article on Wikipedia. Is this even necessary to include? After all, the people in the camp didn't speak english. I'm tempted to just edit this out since it doesn't add much to the article. Dailycyclist 01:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)Dailycyclist
It was never proofed that she had possessed lampshades from human skin or that the family dinner table was decorated with shrunken human heads. She was not convicted for those things. She was only convicted for his sadism against prinsoners. -- 217.247.10.83 09:45, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
How in the hell is this academic? Human lampshades, please. Give me a break. Im not a Nazi but THAT is just stupid.
Furthermore, Koch did not walk out of the camp as you claim, but was arrested with her husband in 1943 for imbezzlement, this indeed ended her tenure there.
What frustrates me about articles like this is that we never really gain any insight into the minds of these "monsters." Why was Ilsa so sadistic when other people are revulsed by her actions? Was it her upbringing, her mental state or some other reason? Surely some psychological research was undertaken if she lived into the 1960s.
I mean, I am aware of Stanley Milgram's work but has there been a look at individual Nazis to understand why certain individuals were so fanatical that they wanted to genocide a whole race? It would help our understanding to prevent this type of thing happening again.
Are we sure that the photograph is really of "Collection of prisoners' tattoos "? These definitely appear to be anatomical samples but most of them look more like organs of some sort than skin samples; the one at center-left appears to be a kidney, the one at top-center appears to be a heart. The others may be possibly be a lung, liver, intestines, etc. I really don't see anything that appears to be a skin sample with a tatoo on it. A similar photograph in one of the articles linked at the article's end simply states "human remains" with a purported lampshade with human skin (no tatoos). Is there a reliable caption we can reference? - JoeConsumer 05/09/06
Like much - most - all - of the Nazi atrocities, when original material ever is tested it turns out to be more legend than fact. The US general who commuted her life sentence to 4 years stated that there was never any lampshade or other evidence every even mentioned at any trial. Her second trial was demanded by political pressure, not evidence. She probably was not a nice lady though -
"the truth will suffice" - I don't think we should go that far. If we only use the truth, well the story about Ilse will either be very short or very sympathetic. Even mentioning her husband ( hung by the Nazis for corruption ) might show that the Nazis wouldn't stand for maltreatment of prisoners,etc. We are backed into a corner - anyway to just delete the whole article?( someone might read it 100 years from now and wonder how off the beam we were) 159.105.80.63 18:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
http://www.fatherryan.org/holocaust/buchen/Ilsekoch.htm
http://www.justiceatdachau.com/bio.htm
-- Homer slips. 02:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Great sites!-- Nikki Fagin 18:00, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Shame on the people who employ shoddy scholarship and repeat unverified stories. Please read the Straight Dope's excellent research on the topic of "lampshades". (Also, you might want to use your critical thinking skills and not just believe every tall tale automatically - why would someone who hates Jews want a lampshade made of the skin of a person they find despicable and "defile" their house with it?) Just because someone writes something, doesn't make it true, and unlike the Holocaust itself, there's not one shred of solid evidence for this bizarre claim.
The memoria´s museum had one on display in 1980. It was not made of patches of skin, as one might expect, but it was woven of narrow stripes of what looked like white, untattooed skin. If this was a fake, it was a good one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.50.119.52 ( talk) 10:17:12, August 19, 2007 (UTC)
I beg to differ. In the early 1970's I worked declassifying WWII in the national records center of the National Archives in the US. There we came up the Koch file which included lampshades and other items that appeared to be made of human body parts. I am not a forensic specialist, but I saw what I saw and touched what I touched. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eric111 ( talk • contribs) 06:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I also disagree. There is a documentary on the "Nazi Hunters" made in 2010 where footage of the lampshades and tattoos are shown. I don't agree with the statement that because we have may no evidence TODAY, that Koch could not have done this evil deed. The sentence with "urban legend" in it should be stricken IMHO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tpkatsa ( talk • contribs) 19:49, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
It is an absolute lie and pure revisionism to suggest that human-skin lamp shades are an "urban legend," and did not occur. Archives of video evidence taken by the liberators both discuss and show such proof. For instance, the footage by Norman Krasna (viewable at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8b3_1283888983) shows just such lamps. Clearly Wikipedia does not take facts as seriously as opinions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.131.122.144 ( talk) 09:26, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
To what end? The war was already over by the time all of these details came out, how would it serve the US to fabricate such things? 124.169.15.72 ( talk) 14:48, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Are there any modern forensic tests have done on the lampshades nowadays? Or all of them were lost in history? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gdgzfallen ( talk • contribs) 19:47, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
If the lamp shades were in the National Archives, we only have to go there and find them and have them tested. I doubt they would be destroyed.
2601:181:8301:4510:98B6:290A:3912:880D (
talk) 02:55, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
Whether those items were really evidence of atrocities involving human body parts or not, is immaterial as far as this entry goes as at the time of her trials they were presented as real evidence. (However, I have read that those items were acquired from a nearby university to be used for propaganda purposes. I also don't hear or read much in the mainstream media about these things anymore, which leads me to believe that their origins were unsubstantiated, and folks have decided to let it drop. The story of their origins in itself would be an interesting topic. If they were not the evidence they were purported to be, the who, what, when, where and why would be fascinating to know. If genuine, one would think they would be prominently displayed in a Holocaust museum somewhere as evidence. Also, DNA extractions could possibly be done to hopefully inform family members of the fate of their loved ones. If they were deemed to be "safe" for the viewing by general audiences in newsreels presented to millions of people at theaters, and later on in television documentaries, there should be no squeamishness or concerns of impropriety about presenting them as a display for the public. Very strange.) 2603:9000:CF0A:5F00:E0CE:1464:5D72:4320 ( talk) 13:04, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
The German version of this article on de.wikipedia claims her only son, Artwin, committed suicide at a very young age. So how did she write a letter to him before she took her own life in 1967? -- 67.149.150.252 ( talk) 05:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Although this woman was clearly horrible, Wikipedia has to remain impartial! The very first sentence in this article surely can't contain bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.152.172.176 ( talk) 21:47, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Ilse Koch has not been a guard in a concentration camp and not chief overseer (Oberaufseherin) in Buchenwald. In the 2 family-photo-albums (National Archives and Records Service, Washington) there is not 1 picture of her in uniform. ( Photo Gallery, DVD, “The Bitch of Buchenwald” (artsmagic.com); fpp.co.uk/docs/controversies/humanskin; and National Archives, Washington (photographs relating to the Third German Reich-Publication number M1137).
It was neither Ilse Koch who ordered to build an indoor sports arena, but this decision was made by the SS-administration in Berlin.
She was not at all a prominent nazi, only member of the NSDAP since 1932 as many other Germans.
An SS-investigation resulted in death penalty for her husband (who was executed by the SS a week before the arrival of the American army), but Ilse Koch was acquitted.
During her trial at Dachau by an American court, there were a lot of survivor accounts accusing her of abuse of prisoners and sadistic behavior, but these accusations were not taken seriously, what made the Military American Governor General Lucius D. Clay do feel that she was unjustly sentenced and commuted her sentence to four years. “The most serious charges were based on hearsay and not on factual evidence…There was no convincing evidence.” (Lucius D. Clay, An American Life, Jean Edward Smith, 1990) (Decision in Germany, 1950, p. 254). “We tried Ilse Koch (…) It turned out actually that it was goat skin. But at the trial it was still human flesh. It was almost impossible for her to have gotten a fair trial” (1976 Interview with George C. Marshall Foundation, Virginia)
The “New York Herald Tribune” sent Germany-correspondent, Edwin C. Hartrich, to investigate and explore the court acts. He looks into thousands of pages and comments finally: “The Ilse-Koch-case is a first-hand model of war propaganda which could not been kept under control. The Americans (…) became victims of their own black propaganda, and after tried it to authenticate it in court. Denson and his colleagues tried desperately to proof this ‘facts’, which could not be proved at all.”
During the trial the Prosecutor, Lt. Colonel William D. Denson, could not introduce the notorious lampshade(s), gloves and photo-albums, made of tattooed human skin, although the National Archives mentioned September 28, 1973 : “…In the process of reviewing the records of the United States Army Judge Advocate General for the years 1939-1948, we have found (…) two photo albums which apparently figured in the prosecution’s case in FRG Box 1089 in this record group”. The Prosecutor apparently was having the albums, which were proof of the innocence of Ilse Koch, and for that reason was hidden them. During the cross-examination the defense-lawyer Emmanuel Lewis asked the Prosecution to introduce at least one ‘corpus delicti’ as evidence, and the Prosecutor answered: “There is nothing more that we would like to do, but unfortunately the people who have these items in their custody, went home and it is impossible to find out where this evidence is in this moment”. (Der Spiegel, 7/1950)
Ilse Koch was again sentenced to life-imprisonment on January 15, 1951 by a German court, for “one count of incitement to murder, one of incitement to attempted murder, five of incitement to severe physical mistreatment of prisoners, and two of physical mistreatment”. “The court found no proof that anyone at Buchenwald had been murdered for his tattooed skin (…)”
Ilse Koch was mother of Karl Koch’s 3 children, Artwin, Gisela and Gudrun and give birth in Dachau-prison to Uwe. The father of Uwe might have been the American interrogator Josef Kirschbaum. (Innocent at Dachau, Joseph Halow, 1992, p. 248). Artwin committed suicide. “The odium against his parents and the shame of his mother’s trial had overwhelmed him (Die Hexe von Buchenwald, Smith Arthur lee). Gudrun died a few months after birth. The whereabouts of Gisela and Uwe are not known. (siegfriedverbeke@hotmail.com) 9/12/2009.
After the trial was remitted under worldwide media attention, survivor accounts of her resulted in other authors describing her abuse of prisoners as "sadistic"; a shadow image as "concentration camp murderess" transfixed itself to post-war German society.
My biggest problem with wiki articles is that they almost always completely fail to "invite" the reader to continue reading. The above is the worst example I've found yet. I read these discussion pages and people besiege the most inane minutae, but completely ignore the most basic fundamentals of lexigraphical adeptitude.
Jonny Quick ( talk) 05:16, 8 April 2010 (UTC)Jonny Quick
'She was one of the first prominent Nazis to be tried by the US military.'
I think you mean trialed but I am not sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AntonHogervorst ( talk • contribs) 09:44, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
No, it's actually correct, see http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/try (under number 4). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.232.64.214 ( talk) 10:34, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
It is amateurisch, there's plenty of books on Buchenwald and the Kochs -- Alexandre Rongellion ( talk) 23:32, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Better English language speculations than authoritative source? Xx236 ( talk) 07:26, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
the article states "...Through some friends in the SA and SS, she met Karl Otto Koch in 1934, marrying him two years later..." i went on page with information about Karl Otto Koch and found great differences in dates and where both were - it seems to me that Ilse and Otto Karl were separated, when Karl Otto Koch was transferred from Buchenwald: "...On August 1, 1937, he was given command of the new concentration camp at Buchenwald. He remained at Buchenwald until September 1941, when he was transferred to the Majdanek concentration camp for POWs. That was largely due to an investigation based on allegations of his improper conduct at Buchenwald, which included corruption, fraud, embezzlement, drunkenness, sexual offences and a murder. Koch commanded the Majdanek camp for only one year; he was relieved from his duties after 86 Soviet POWs escaped from the camp in August 1942. Koch was charged with criminal negligence and transferred to Berlin, where he worked at the SS Personalhauptamt and as a liaison between the SS and the German Post-Office..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Otto_Koch "...In 1936 she began working as a guard and secretary at the Sachsenhausen concentration camp near Berlin, which her fiancé commanded, and was married the same year. In 1937 she came to Buchenwald when her husband was made Commandant.[9] In 1940, she built an indoor sports arena, which cost over 250,000 reichsmarks (approximately $62,500), most of which had been seized from the inmates. In 1941 Karl Otto Koch was transferred to Lublin, where he helped establish the Majdanek concentration and extermination camp. Ilse Koch remained at Buchenwald until 24 August 1943, when she and her husband were arrested on the orders of Josias von Waldeck-Pyrmont, SS and Police Leader for Weimar, who had supervisory authority over Buchenwald. The charges against the Kochs comprised private enrichment, embezzlement, and the murder of prisoners to prevent them giving testimony.[10] Ilse Koch was imprisoned until 1944 when she was acquitted for lack of evidence, but her husband was found guilty and sentenced to death by an SS court in Munich, and was executed by shooting in Buchenwald in April 1945. She went to live with her surviving family in the town of Ludwigsburg, where she was arrested by U.S. authorities on 30 June 1945..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilse_Koch this discrepancy tells me that either husband and wife divorced OR that another man who came instead of Karl Otto Koch was left in history under the name of original husband, which is a fraud that needs to be corrected on Wikipedia and other archives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.242.161.27 ( talk) 23:24, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
The article mentions "Karl and Ilse Koch had two sons, including one who committed suicide after the war." However on Karl's page it is stated that on "May 25, 1936 Koch married Ilse Koch née Margarete Ilse Köhler, with whom he had a son and two daughters." Both is hardly possible. Is there somebody able to rectify this? Mregelsberger ( talk) 14:12, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
the article states "...Through some friends in the SA and SS, she met Karl Otto Koch in 1934, marrying him two years later..." i went on page with information about Karl Otto Koch and found great differences in dates and where both were - it seems to me that Ilse and Otto Karl were separated, when Karl Otto Koch was transferred from Buchenwald: "...On August 1, 1937, he was given command of the new concentration camp at Buchenwald. He remained at Buchenwald until September 1941, when he was transferred to the Majdanek concentration camp for POWs. That was largely due to an investigation based on allegations of his improper conduct at Buchenwald, which included corruption, fraud, embezzlement, drunkenness, sexual offences and a murder. Koch commanded the Majdanek camp for only one year; he was relieved from his duties after 86 Soviet POWs escaped from the camp in August 1942. Koch was charged with criminal negligence and transferred to Berlin, where he worked at the SS Personalhauptamt and as a liaison between the SS and the German Post-Office..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Otto_Koch "...In 1936 she began working as a guard and secretary at the Sachsenhausen concentration camp near Berlin, which her fiancé commanded, and was married the same year. In 1937 she came to Buchenwald when her husband was made Commandant.[9] In 1940, she built an indoor sports arena, which cost over 250,000 reichsmarks (approximately $62,500), most of which had been seized from the inmates. In 1941 Karl Otto Koch was transferred to Lublin, where he helped establish the Majdanek concentration and extermination camp. Ilse Koch remained at Buchenwald until 24 August 1943, when she and her husband were arrested on the orders of Josias von Waldeck-Pyrmont, SS and Police Leader for Weimar, who had supervisory authority over Buchenwald. The charges against the Kochs comprised private enrichment, embezzlement, and the murder of prisoners to prevent them giving testimony.[10] Ilse Koch was imprisoned until 1944 when she was acquitted for lack of evidence, but her husband was found guilty and sentenced to death by an SS court in Munich, and was executed by shooting in Buchenwald in April 1945. She went to live with her surviving family in the town of Ludwigsburg, where she was arrested by U.S. authorities on 30 June 1945..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilse_Koch this discrepancy tells me that either husband and wife divorced OR that another man who came instead of Karl Otto Koch was left in history under the name of original husband, which is a fraud that needs to be corrected on Wikipedia and other archives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inna Maria Swann ( talk • contribs) 23:37, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
I started looking at this:
"Another son, conceived in her prison cell at Dachau by an unknown father, was born in the Aichach prison near Dachau, where she was sent to serve her life sentence, and was immediately taken from her. At the age of 19, he learned that Koch was his mother and began visiting her regularly at Aichach. They had a good relationship and Koch wrote poetry for him.
Which doesn't really make sense -- she committed suicide about (the dates in the article aren't precise) 20 years after the son would have been born.
Then I noticed that this talk page discusses some earlier weird references to the son.
Googling around a bit (how I got interested in this person to begin with), she's apparently an utterly fascinating character. A mystery wrapped in an enigma, and all that. Apparently multiple affairs, the husband may have been gay, the father of at least one son seems to have been Jewish...
All I'm saying is, this seems to be a very notable person, and there seems to be a lot of fascinating material that could be added here. I'm not going to attempt it because I don't have the expertise in the subject matter. But it would be great if we could find someone who did.
Djcheburashka ( talk) 14:50, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
I removed the internal link, since it mistakenly lead to the EP "At War" by a Brazilian death metal band, not the page of the American band At War, which currently has no English wikipedia entry. 12:08, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
As of now, the section on "War crimes" does not display or touch any war crime at all. If anybody cares for this article, I really hope they can/will supply proper information and referrence on this particular subject. RhinoMind ( talk) 01:24, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
This article paints a completely different picture compared to Lampshades_made_from_human_skin#Nazi_era. Incidentally, that article seems to mysteriously have longer quotes and sources not found in this article. I can only assume that one of these two articles have been carefully crafted to present a certain agenda. A clever man might think that it's the one with removed sources and shortened quotes but I wouldn't dare to draw such conclusions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:2002:4E44:2B65:CA2:4306:433B:1353 ( talk) 19:07, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
The contributor who handled a purported human-skin-lampshade would have contaminated the evidence with his own DNA. Nonetheless it would certainly be presently possible to determine whether the object was human skin or most likely, ordinary animal skin parchment, used as writing material then recycled to provide a lampshade. It would be possible to determine the individual who originally owned the skin. About five years ago I searched the Internet and discovered that such animal-parchment-covered lampshades continue to be manufactured.
The 'human-skin-lampshade' would be primary evidence of murder and as such ought to be handed to police for modernforensic testing. If the lampshade (if it still exists!) is tested and found to be merely ordinary parchment (sheep/goatsetc.) then it would be evidence that, as usual, people have falsely smeared the Germans - falsely accusing someone of a crime, which is itself a crime. Has the evidence been destroyed? That would also be a criminal offense.
The most likely possibility is that the lampshades, like the 'shrunken heads' are as intentionally fraudulent as the numerous other props and fake photographs that smeared the Germans during and after WW2 and WW1. Recall that WW1 was restarted at the end of 1916 and early 1917 and soldiers were recruited to prevent the barbarous Germans from eating Belgian babies and raping nuns (WW1 was the 'war to prevent cannibalism'). Telling Lies about the Germans is a sport. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.144.96.231 ( talk) 22:35, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Josef Kirschbaum is known for his statement to his client named Einstein: "How can we bring this pig to the gallows for murdering your brother if you are so stupid as to bring your brother into this courtroom!" Moreover he aught to have been disbarred because of his scandalous relationship with the accused Ilse Koch. Can we imagine any other case where such conduct would be allowed today? Also, the 2,400 Jewish attendees at the Nuremberg trials should have refused to take part in the trials. Instead, they immorally acted as biased prosecutors in their own case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.144.96.231 ( talk) 22:49, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
The American twelfth Army report, 'Buchenwald: A preliminary Report', established that most of the people who died under the Germans were killed by the communists within the camp - they decided who would receive food. Images of the inmates at the time of their liberation presented them as fit and healthy. As I understand it, when the liberated the camp, the Russians killed more Germans there than had died under the German rule. Note that the liberators found a thousand Hungarian Jewish children playing happily. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.144.96.231 ( talk) 22:58, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Was Ilse Koch a patient in the T4 program since she was psychotic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.40.192.91 ( talk) 03:30, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
OK to add this information?
References
It would be good to add in a Propaganda section.
2601:181:8301:4510:98B6:290A:3912:880D ( talk) 03:04, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
@ Jack90s15: What is the relevance, here, of a photo depicting preserved human organs removed from prisoners during medical experiments conducted in Buchenwald concentration camp ? Ilse Koch is associated with the collecting of tattooed skins, not of internal organs or nazi human experimentation ? BeatrixBelibaste ( talk) 17:04, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
@ BeatrixBelibaste: She was involved in the evil things that were going on,
In Hitler's Shadow: Post-War Germany & the Girls of the BDM https://books.google.com/books?id=ecOIDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT270&lpg=PT270&dq=internal+organs++++Ilse+Koch+Buchenwald+concentration+camp&source=bl&ots=Ku7W-kK5o5&sig=ACfU3U0FAUph9_63Lid6FFWBeEwCgQyIEQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKupaf9YzkAhWJjlkKHfSmDBMQ6AEwEHoECA0QAQ#v=onepage&q=internal%20organs%20%20%20%20Ilse%20Koch%20Buchenwald%20concentration%20camp&f=false
Maybe we reword the picture to?
Collection of prisoners' internal organs, human experimentation happened under Ilse Koch at Buchenwald . Jack90s15 ( talk) 17:30, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
Two sources of her sone Uwe are provided, but both are tagged as unrealiable (although one is more 'questionable' thatn unrealiable). Why keep the second of the two up (since April 2016)? Can a quicck Google search on her prison-conceived son yield reputable results? NotPeterParker ( talk) 08:30, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Hi All,
I'm very frustrated by the wealth of disinformation that this entry contains - that she had a position as a guard at Sachsenhausen, that she followed Karl to Majdanek, that she had four children, that she herself was engaged in experiments, that she was prosecuted by Kunzig (who was actually assistant prosecutor) rather than William Denson, the list goes on and on. I wish I was more conversant with adding/editing content here. I've fixed the biggest howling errors quickly, but not sure they will stick. If anyone is interested, my new book on Ilse Koch will be published by Harvard Press this month. It is based on ten years of archival research and interviews with her daughter, etc. I hope it will help to set the record straight, because the information on this Wiki page is so horribly wrong (though in some cases understandably so, as it quotes sources that themselves are wrong). https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674249189 Tomazjardim ( talk) 18:27, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
Were they for real (proven as such) or were they false? It appears a lot of storytelling was in the accusations against here. Kind of a mass-hysteria in the later 1940s that made people believe the most absurd stories. But should that form our historiography. 105.0.7.63 ( talk) 13:44, 18 April 2023 (UTC)