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I think there needs to be more research regarding the hotel stuff in Italy, as it sounds quite unlikely. Women in Spain keep their last names and Portuguese people derive their last names from their mothers. Are hotel owners in Italy turning Spanish and Portuguese people away as well?
If something like that happened in Italy, it must have been a long time ago. I'm Italian. Married women in Italy legally keep their name and use it commonly, I find it very hard to believe that a family with different surnames would be treated unfairly because of this. I think such episodes are more likely to happen in countries where women change their name upon marriage, in fact the story you mention happened in London. Italy is not one of these countries. I travelled with my mother as a child in many occasions and there were never problems in hotels because we had two different surnames. Nor my parents have ever had such problems because of their different surnames. Therefore, without more definite evidence or references on this matter, I am removing the reference to Italy and leaving the statement more generic.
I am removing the following parraraph: "This could easily lead to Icelandic families having difficulties with the customs services of foreign countries mistakenly believing their children may be kidnapped because of the differing names. In other countries or establishments, it can also be fairly embarrassing for a person to check into a hotel with his or her spouse only to have to prove his or her marital status, though this has become a less common requirement in recent decades." This is clearly anecdotal chit chat- unless there is good evidence to back this up this is simply an attempt to imagine a few highly unlikely and melodramatic scenarios (for the record, children do not need to have the same surnames as their parents- they simply need to establish that their parent or the adult travelling with them is their legal guardian and, anyhow, a child's passport almost always makes reference to the legal guardian)
This is Wikipedia at its best: An interesting topic that I would never have thought of looking up, and which would't fit into standard encyclopedias, explained clearly and succinctly - even a Bjork reference at the end to hook it into popular culture without diluting it. Good stuff.
The article is right that at large there are no family names in Iceland, however some people (such as me) have one "Arnfjörð" is a family name in my family.
So i have a "first name - family name - fathers name.
It's rare, but there are exceptions to this "rule".
Also, alot of people, especially in later times have middle names which are not family names such as "Ingi Freyr Jónsson".
Also it could be mentioned that foo barson is akin to foo bin bar as used in some muslim countries. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 21:41, 2004 Sep 8 (UTC)
Actually to be technically correct, you can only have a family name if you have the right to have one (i.e. if your parents have one, usually the father). If you have a family name you need not have a patronym, as the article implies (see http://www.althingi.is/lagasofn/nuna/1996045.html for the original legal text). About 10% of the population have family names and no new family names can be used. – User:128.2.47.26
This is perhaps more of a linguistic question: I notice most male last names have two s's (-sson), but Ævar's only has one "s" (Bjarmason). Is there a principled reason for that? I ask because in the Southern Min article on Iceland I used Björk as an example but then couldn't be sure if her (real or hypothetical) brother would be Guðmundursson or Guðmundurson. A-giau 12:21, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have renamed this article Icelandic name, to conform with other articles in the series. David Cannon 14:02, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
What does this mean? -- Dpr
This article says:
While Patronymic says:
What is correct?-- Amir E. Aharoni 11:48, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
In the article, one is told: "Icelanders, unlike other Scandinavians, have continued to use their traditional name system, which was formerly used in all of Scandinavia." Is this really true? I know that in at least Sweden, this system is stil in use to some extent. This is especially true in the rural province Jämtland (where I come from) where the patronyme is usually put as a middle name. Suppose a man who is in most documents referred to as Olov Långtjärn gets a daughter which he gives the first name Hanna. Then she'll get the middle name Olovsdotter and the surname Långtjärn, i.e., having a full name Hanna Olovsdotter Långtjärn. Though in most documents she'll be referred to as Hanna Långtjärn. I have seen numbers on this earlier this spring, and obviously some 3% jamtlanders (basically the number of farmers) conform to this system.
Jens Persson ( 130.242.128.85 00:39, 1 May 2006 (UTC))
Can anyone tell me further about the Icelandic family name? If I understand well, the son of parent will get a kind of suffix "-son" and the daughter of parents will get a kind of suffix "-dóttir".
However, Eiður Smári Guðjohnsen does not follow the "rule". (I am not sure if it is a rule. Or, should I call this a habit?) Can anyone tell me from whom he gets his last name "Guðjohnsen"?
Then, I have noticed that there is a person whose name is Júlíus Hafstein in the Department of Overseas Business and Tourism. My question is the same as the previous.
My last question is how I can put Icelanders' names in my address book. Is it allowed to put the name of someone by the last name first, e.g. "Guðjohnsen, Eiður Smári"?
Thanks for everyone help. Yves Revi 11:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Libraries all over the world traditionally sort Icelanders by first name, including those who adopted a surname. For example, the Library of Congress Authorities heading for Halldór Laxness is Halldór Laxness and not Laxness, Halldór (which is only a reference), in contrast to e.g. some English John Smith who would have a heading like Smith, John. Gestumblindi 02:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
In some cases, an individual's last name is derived from his/her parent's middle name instead of first name. For example, if Jón is the son of Hjálmar Arnar Vilhjálmsson he may either be named Jón Hjálmarsson (Jón son of Hjálmar) or Jón Arnarsson (Jón son of Arnar). The reason for this may be that the parent prefers to be called by his/her middle name instead of first, which is fairly common, or that the parent's middle name seems to fit the child's first name better.
Since there is apparently not a single strict rule for forming last names, is it obligatory that all sons or all daughters have to have the same name? For example, if, to use the example given in that paragraph, Hjálmar Arnar Vilhjálmsson has two sons, could he give one the last name Hjálmarsson and the other Arnarsson? Nik42 08:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, do those individuals with inherited surnames have the option of giving their children traditional patrynomics instead of passing on their surname? Nik42 08:44, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I take it that immigrants get to keep their last name? I mean, I want to live in Iceland eventually, but I don’t want to have to change my name to Max Darrylsson! Max Naylor 13:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
What happens when an Icelander gets a sex change? For example, if a male named Jonsson has a sex change, does he/she automatically become Jonsdottir?
In our (American) family, we decided to give the daughters in our family the mother's last name and the sons in our family the father's last name. We have one daughter and two sons. The idea was provide a model that - if followed - could allow a mother's name to be passed down as well as a father's. Yes, the fairness all depends on having some of each. It works for us, though. -- 146.115.74.193 22:12, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
What would Jón Stefánsson's wife's surname be? If her name is Brynja, and her father is Tómas, she's Brynja Tómasdóttir before her marriage. And then? Her surname doesn't change, right? I mean, she doesn't get her husband's surname because she's not the daughter of Stefán. If there's a family with mother, father, a daughter and a son, all of them have different surnames? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.102.238.23 ( talk • contribs) 10 July 2008
Article says:
Isn't there a rather obvious reason that a matronymic might be used that is being ignored here, or at least skirted around? The obvious thing would be that there's a fair number of people whose father is unknown, or close to unknown - the mother doesn't simply "wish to end social ties with the father" - she has never really had any social ties to the father. One would assume this would be the main reason for the use of matronymics, wouldn't it? Can the language of this be tightened up in some way? john k ( talk) 03:06, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
the focus of this article is on the last name, which yes is the unique part, but it should at least state conventions for first and middle names. as well as styles and forms of address. 67.176.160.47 ( talk) 06:28, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
It seems clear from reading translations of Icelandic sagas that there was once an extensive use of nicknames to overcome the problem of many people having the same name. Is it right to suppose that this has been largely discontinued in favour of the modern practice, mentioned in the article, of adding the profession? -- MWLittleGuy ( talk) 15:28, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
All the family name examples are ok on this page but some such as Baltasar Kormákur Samper use patronymics on their linked pages. This might be confusing to some. Some even use both in either order. The Template:Icelandic name doesn't currently handle that. I've just been 'fixing' the Icelandic template but it could be fixed to handle that case (see: Birgitta Haukdal for how I fixed her without a template. What do you think? comp.arch ( talk) 17:24, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
At the time of the Settlement, I gather that the old dithematic name system was still productive: personal names commonly consisted of two nouns (or adjective+noun), one of which was shared with a parent. If the name Foobar is not on the approved list but Fooketil and Asbar both are (As and ketil being common elements in those positions, the first examples I thought of), is Foobar automatically allowed or does it need an application? — Tamfang ( talk) 18:26, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Apologies if this isn't the best place for this discussion, or if it already exists elsewhere. Wikipedia articles about persons with Icelandic names are quite inconsistent about the {{Persondata NAME= }} parameter and {{DEFAULTSORT:}}.
Article | Persondata | NAME = | DEFAULTSORT: |
Ársæll Kjartansson | Ársæll Kjartansson | Kjartansson, Arsaell |
Magnús Kjartansson | Kjartansson, Magnús | Kjartansson, Magnus |
Ragnar Kjartansson (sculptor) | Kjartansson, Ragnar | (N/A) |
Ragnar Kjartansson (performance artist) | Ragnar Kjartansson | Ragnar Kjartansson |
Sigurjón Kjartansson | Kjartansson, Sigurjon | Sigurjon Kjartansson |
Heiðar Helguson | Helguson, Heiðar | Helguson, Heidar |
Guðrún Eva Mínervudóttir | Gudrun Eva Minervudottir | Gudrun Eva Minervudottir |
Eilífr Goðrúnarson | Eilífr Goðrúnarson | Eilifr Godrunarson |
Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir | Johanna Sigurdardottir | Sigurdardottir, Johanna |
Tinna Gunnlaugsdóttir | Gunnlaugsdóttir, Tinna | Gunnlaugsdottir, Tinna |
Sometimes the {{Persondata NAME= }} parameter is first name first and sometimes it is first name last; sometimes it is with Icelandic letters and accents and sometimes it is converted to English letters without accents. Sometimes {{DEFAULTSORT:}} is first name first and sometimes it is first name last. Is there a stated Wikipedia standard for these parameters for Icelandic names? If so, where is it? If not, should there be a standard, what should it be, and where should it be? — Anomalocaris ( talk) 07:37, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
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How does 'ver' fit into this naming scheme, as in Magnús Ver Magnússon? Halbared ( talk) 08:56, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Icelandic name article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I think there needs to be more research regarding the hotel stuff in Italy, as it sounds quite unlikely. Women in Spain keep their last names and Portuguese people derive their last names from their mothers. Are hotel owners in Italy turning Spanish and Portuguese people away as well?
If something like that happened in Italy, it must have been a long time ago. I'm Italian. Married women in Italy legally keep their name and use it commonly, I find it very hard to believe that a family with different surnames would be treated unfairly because of this. I think such episodes are more likely to happen in countries where women change their name upon marriage, in fact the story you mention happened in London. Italy is not one of these countries. I travelled with my mother as a child in many occasions and there were never problems in hotels because we had two different surnames. Nor my parents have ever had such problems because of their different surnames. Therefore, without more definite evidence or references on this matter, I am removing the reference to Italy and leaving the statement more generic.
I am removing the following parraraph: "This could easily lead to Icelandic families having difficulties with the customs services of foreign countries mistakenly believing their children may be kidnapped because of the differing names. In other countries or establishments, it can also be fairly embarrassing for a person to check into a hotel with his or her spouse only to have to prove his or her marital status, though this has become a less common requirement in recent decades." This is clearly anecdotal chit chat- unless there is good evidence to back this up this is simply an attempt to imagine a few highly unlikely and melodramatic scenarios (for the record, children do not need to have the same surnames as their parents- they simply need to establish that their parent or the adult travelling with them is their legal guardian and, anyhow, a child's passport almost always makes reference to the legal guardian)
This is Wikipedia at its best: An interesting topic that I would never have thought of looking up, and which would't fit into standard encyclopedias, explained clearly and succinctly - even a Bjork reference at the end to hook it into popular culture without diluting it. Good stuff.
The article is right that at large there are no family names in Iceland, however some people (such as me) have one "Arnfjörð" is a family name in my family.
So i have a "first name - family name - fathers name.
It's rare, but there are exceptions to this "rule".
Also, alot of people, especially in later times have middle names which are not family names such as "Ingi Freyr Jónsson".
Also it could be mentioned that foo barson is akin to foo bin bar as used in some muslim countries. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 21:41, 2004 Sep 8 (UTC)
Actually to be technically correct, you can only have a family name if you have the right to have one (i.e. if your parents have one, usually the father). If you have a family name you need not have a patronym, as the article implies (see http://www.althingi.is/lagasofn/nuna/1996045.html for the original legal text). About 10% of the population have family names and no new family names can be used. – User:128.2.47.26
This is perhaps more of a linguistic question: I notice most male last names have two s's (-sson), but Ævar's only has one "s" (Bjarmason). Is there a principled reason for that? I ask because in the Southern Min article on Iceland I used Björk as an example but then couldn't be sure if her (real or hypothetical) brother would be Guðmundursson or Guðmundurson. A-giau 12:21, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have renamed this article Icelandic name, to conform with other articles in the series. David Cannon 14:02, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
What does this mean? -- Dpr
This article says:
While Patronymic says:
What is correct?-- Amir E. Aharoni 11:48, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
In the article, one is told: "Icelanders, unlike other Scandinavians, have continued to use their traditional name system, which was formerly used in all of Scandinavia." Is this really true? I know that in at least Sweden, this system is stil in use to some extent. This is especially true in the rural province Jämtland (where I come from) where the patronyme is usually put as a middle name. Suppose a man who is in most documents referred to as Olov Långtjärn gets a daughter which he gives the first name Hanna. Then she'll get the middle name Olovsdotter and the surname Långtjärn, i.e., having a full name Hanna Olovsdotter Långtjärn. Though in most documents she'll be referred to as Hanna Långtjärn. I have seen numbers on this earlier this spring, and obviously some 3% jamtlanders (basically the number of farmers) conform to this system.
Jens Persson ( 130.242.128.85 00:39, 1 May 2006 (UTC))
Can anyone tell me further about the Icelandic family name? If I understand well, the son of parent will get a kind of suffix "-son" and the daughter of parents will get a kind of suffix "-dóttir".
However, Eiður Smári Guðjohnsen does not follow the "rule". (I am not sure if it is a rule. Or, should I call this a habit?) Can anyone tell me from whom he gets his last name "Guðjohnsen"?
Then, I have noticed that there is a person whose name is Júlíus Hafstein in the Department of Overseas Business and Tourism. My question is the same as the previous.
My last question is how I can put Icelanders' names in my address book. Is it allowed to put the name of someone by the last name first, e.g. "Guðjohnsen, Eiður Smári"?
Thanks for everyone help. Yves Revi 11:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Libraries all over the world traditionally sort Icelanders by first name, including those who adopted a surname. For example, the Library of Congress Authorities heading for Halldór Laxness is Halldór Laxness and not Laxness, Halldór (which is only a reference), in contrast to e.g. some English John Smith who would have a heading like Smith, John. Gestumblindi 02:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
In some cases, an individual's last name is derived from his/her parent's middle name instead of first name. For example, if Jón is the son of Hjálmar Arnar Vilhjálmsson he may either be named Jón Hjálmarsson (Jón son of Hjálmar) or Jón Arnarsson (Jón son of Arnar). The reason for this may be that the parent prefers to be called by his/her middle name instead of first, which is fairly common, or that the parent's middle name seems to fit the child's first name better.
Since there is apparently not a single strict rule for forming last names, is it obligatory that all sons or all daughters have to have the same name? For example, if, to use the example given in that paragraph, Hjálmar Arnar Vilhjálmsson has two sons, could he give one the last name Hjálmarsson and the other Arnarsson? Nik42 08:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, do those individuals with inherited surnames have the option of giving their children traditional patrynomics instead of passing on their surname? Nik42 08:44, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I take it that immigrants get to keep their last name? I mean, I want to live in Iceland eventually, but I don’t want to have to change my name to Max Darrylsson! Max Naylor 13:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
What happens when an Icelander gets a sex change? For example, if a male named Jonsson has a sex change, does he/she automatically become Jonsdottir?
In our (American) family, we decided to give the daughters in our family the mother's last name and the sons in our family the father's last name. We have one daughter and two sons. The idea was provide a model that - if followed - could allow a mother's name to be passed down as well as a father's. Yes, the fairness all depends on having some of each. It works for us, though. -- 146.115.74.193 22:12, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
What would Jón Stefánsson's wife's surname be? If her name is Brynja, and her father is Tómas, she's Brynja Tómasdóttir before her marriage. And then? Her surname doesn't change, right? I mean, she doesn't get her husband's surname because she's not the daughter of Stefán. If there's a family with mother, father, a daughter and a son, all of them have different surnames? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.102.238.23 ( talk • contribs) 10 July 2008
Article says:
Isn't there a rather obvious reason that a matronymic might be used that is being ignored here, or at least skirted around? The obvious thing would be that there's a fair number of people whose father is unknown, or close to unknown - the mother doesn't simply "wish to end social ties with the father" - she has never really had any social ties to the father. One would assume this would be the main reason for the use of matronymics, wouldn't it? Can the language of this be tightened up in some way? john k ( talk) 03:06, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
the focus of this article is on the last name, which yes is the unique part, but it should at least state conventions for first and middle names. as well as styles and forms of address. 67.176.160.47 ( talk) 06:28, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
It seems clear from reading translations of Icelandic sagas that there was once an extensive use of nicknames to overcome the problem of many people having the same name. Is it right to suppose that this has been largely discontinued in favour of the modern practice, mentioned in the article, of adding the profession? -- MWLittleGuy ( talk) 15:28, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
All the family name examples are ok on this page but some such as Baltasar Kormákur Samper use patronymics on their linked pages. This might be confusing to some. Some even use both in either order. The Template:Icelandic name doesn't currently handle that. I've just been 'fixing' the Icelandic template but it could be fixed to handle that case (see: Birgitta Haukdal for how I fixed her without a template. What do you think? comp.arch ( talk) 17:24, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
At the time of the Settlement, I gather that the old dithematic name system was still productive: personal names commonly consisted of two nouns (or adjective+noun), one of which was shared with a parent. If the name Foobar is not on the approved list but Fooketil and Asbar both are (As and ketil being common elements in those positions, the first examples I thought of), is Foobar automatically allowed or does it need an application? — Tamfang ( talk) 18:26, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Apologies if this isn't the best place for this discussion, or if it already exists elsewhere. Wikipedia articles about persons with Icelandic names are quite inconsistent about the {{Persondata NAME= }} parameter and {{DEFAULTSORT:}}.
Article | Persondata | NAME = | DEFAULTSORT: |
Ársæll Kjartansson | Ársæll Kjartansson | Kjartansson, Arsaell |
Magnús Kjartansson | Kjartansson, Magnús | Kjartansson, Magnus |
Ragnar Kjartansson (sculptor) | Kjartansson, Ragnar | (N/A) |
Ragnar Kjartansson (performance artist) | Ragnar Kjartansson | Ragnar Kjartansson |
Sigurjón Kjartansson | Kjartansson, Sigurjon | Sigurjon Kjartansson |
Heiðar Helguson | Helguson, Heiðar | Helguson, Heidar |
Guðrún Eva Mínervudóttir | Gudrun Eva Minervudottir | Gudrun Eva Minervudottir |
Eilífr Goðrúnarson | Eilífr Goðrúnarson | Eilifr Godrunarson |
Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir | Johanna Sigurdardottir | Sigurdardottir, Johanna |
Tinna Gunnlaugsdóttir | Gunnlaugsdóttir, Tinna | Gunnlaugsdottir, Tinna |
Sometimes the {{Persondata NAME= }} parameter is first name first and sometimes it is first name last; sometimes it is with Icelandic letters and accents and sometimes it is converted to English letters without accents. Sometimes {{DEFAULTSORT:}} is first name first and sometimes it is first name last. Is there a stated Wikipedia standard for these parameters for Icelandic names? If so, where is it? If not, should there be a standard, what should it be, and where should it be? — Anomalocaris ( talk) 07:37, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Icelandic name. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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How does 'ver' fit into this naming scheme, as in Magnús Ver Magnússon? Halbared ( talk) 08:56, 29 September 2020 (UTC)