Content moved to wikipedia talk:ISBN
See http://www.isbn-international.org/converter/ranges.htm for details.
Broadly:
0 English speaking areas 1 English speaking areas 2 French speaking areas 3 German speaking areas 4 Japan 5 Former USSR 60x various 7 China 8x various: see the cite above for details 9x various: see the cite above for details 92 International organizations as publishers
I know that ISBNs are 10 digits: language digit, dash, publisher code, dash, book number, dash, check digit. Is a book uniquely identified if dashes aren't given? I.e. could there be different books with ISBNs:
The article uses the phrase 'Language code', but there is no recognition of that phrase at isbn.org. I propose replacing it with 'Group identifier', which is their official term. Some extra words would be added to explain how it's generally used. Let me know if anyone objects. In fact, it's not really a language code, it's a code for a group of countries that (in most cases) happen to share a language. Any book issued by a publisher in that set of countries gets the given group identifier, regardless of the language of the book. That's how Springer can issue English-language books in Germany with group identifier '3'. And how a publisher in Iran (with group identifier 964) can issue a book in the Azeri dialect of Turkish [1]. This clarification might benefit Wikipedia's ISBN-fixers when searching for books in languages other than English. EdJohnston 22:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Why is this article opted out of bot attention entirely? -- nae' blis 01:02, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
194.154.66.232 22:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
How does ISBN-13 solve the "pending shortage in certain ISBN categories" if all it does is prefix an ISBN-10 with 978 or 979? Njál 21:52, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
At present this article has 20 external links. (Probably too many to have it be accepted as a featured article). Does anyone have time to carefully study the remaining links and recommend here, on the Talk page, which ones we can do without? As an example, I think we have too many different links to 'conversion aids'. If we are going to keep all those links we at least we should at least add some text to the article about conversion. EdJohnston 16:20, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Is ISBN 13 less capable of detecting errors, or equally capable but less capable of detecting transposition errors which are perhaps one of the most common forms of errors (i.e. it's better at detecting other errors)? I presuming it's the later so I've clarified the article accordingly. Obviously if transposition errors are more common then other types of errors then by not being so good at detecting transposition errors ISBN 13 may be less likely to detect errors but it would still arguably be equally capable Nil Einne 15:24, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
The article said:
0 instead of 11? No number mod 11 could possibly result in 11 in the first place. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.217.22.128 ( talk) 05:05, 10 May 2007 (UTC).
The check-digit substitution in the article is incorrect and should be fixed. The algorithm is to substitute a 0 for a 10, and substitute an "X" for 11.
http://www.bisg.org/isbn-13/conversions.html#Algorithm%20for%20checking%20the%2010-digit%20ISBN —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dzurn ( talk • contribs) 05:45, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
What's the source on the pronounciation for "ISBN"? I've never heard anyone pronounce it this way. It's not a word or an acronym, it's an initialism. So, it should be pronounced "I-S-B-N." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.217.163.48 ( talk) 07:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC).
Is it correct that there is no way to see the correct hyphenation of a given ISBN without consulting an external source, like the book itself etc.? (I.e. given 012345689 may it theoretically be hyphened 0-12-34567-89, but also 0123-4567-89)? Thanks. Jakob.scholbach 03:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
There is a list of ranges which tells you where the hyphens should be placed, but I have temporarily mislaid my link. In the meantime, there are several people who fix ISBN formats: maybe you could ask them? HTH HAND Phil | Talk 11:19, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
no, it's not correct. the hyphen placement can be determined from only the number. [2] — Chris Capoccia T⁄ C 10:36, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately, this article doesn't tell, which lead me to find the answer from
http://www.bisg.org/isbn-13/faq.html
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/iso/tc46sc9/isbn.htm
And
which prompts me to request the article writer to either append these two links or amend the content.
... or you could make the edits yourself. This is an open source encyclopaedia. You are the article writer. Have fun! ElectricRay 23:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I have come across a book with only one page and is of ISBN number. I would like to check if it is a valid number assigned to the book. Please add the knowledge of that. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.82.228.37 ( talk) 11 July, 2007
Book Industry Study Group suggests a certain 5-digit price add-on structure for the ISBN-13 with price add-on.
* First digit is "5" for $US * First digit is "4" for $CAN
Add-on seems to be mandatory for several US retailers.
Question: are there any other examples for other countries than US/CAN in this respect? Has anyone seen price add-ons say in Germany or France?
Gs1mo 13:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I have been told (BSIG) that price add-on is specific to US market only. To be specific it's mandated only by Barnes & Noble
Gs1mo 14:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to thank whoever wrote the section Check digit in ISBN-10. I needed to cite a publication with the old ISBN 2-88145-076. 9-digit ISBNs are not recognized by the Wiki ISBN magic but, using the article, I was able to manually calculate the check digit to give ISBN 2-88145-076-8. Again, thank you. HairyWombat 22:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Yep, looks like the ISBN is defective. The publication was by the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva. Although the publication is in English, Geneva is French speaking which would explain the leading "2". I found a contact page for the ICRC's Library and Research Service, and have asked them for the correct ISBN. Until they get back to me I have listed the defective one. HairyWombat 23:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I think that this article would be greatly improved of the explanation of the format of ISBNs and the method of their calculation/assignment were simplified. As it is, I found the mathematics (expecially the detailed discussion of modulo and modulus) to be lacking clarity and truly confusing. The tone, with the lack of deferential explanation to the non-mathematician, indicate an orientation other than towards readers, editors, or even librarians, which is to say ISBN users. When I read this article, I felt a bit like I had looked up telephone area codes and instead of seeing a list, I read a technical explanation of why the middle digit once could only be a '1' or '0' and how phone systems were badly fouled up for more than a year after other numerals were introduced. That wouldn't be helpful or appropriate for such an entry, and this one fails on the same account.
I don't propose that this information be removed, but rather that a more direct, practical, non-technical (in a mathematical sense) explication of ISBNs be added, and that perhaps the detailed math moved further down into the article. As it is, after the "Overview" section, the math associated with ISBNs is put forth as the central and most vital information on the subject. I don't think this is the case. For Wikipedia users (as for most encyclopedias, except specialized or technical ones) who will most often be readers, booksellers, or others using/buying/selling/caring for books, the most sought information is simply how to parse or interpret an ISBN, followed by why they are needed or required, their history, the assigning body or authority, and finally by the more special interest information of the formulas and math/math theory that is here.
I am not myself a good candidate to do this editing. That person would more ideally be a librarian or bookseller who better understands and is more experienced in the pragmatics of ISBNs (and they are what else other than practical?), and who perhaps also understands the math at least well enough to re-write the article to include the mathematical info in a more clear and appropriate (in tone, position, and proportion) manner. Googlyelmo 19:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
It is the second through fourth sections/paragraphs, following the initial section under the heading "Overview". These go into great detail about the formulas for arriving at the check digits of both the 10 and 13 digit ISBN. Yes, splitting this to another article, with appropriate pointer/link, might help. Most of the information necessary to interpret ISBNs seems already to be present, though it is scattered over several sections (not at all uncommon for an article with multiple, successive writers and editors, none of whom truly collaborate, in the contemporaneous sense). Some amplification and elaboration of how ISBNs are used, by whom, and for what purpose might improve the article. Just imagine why someone, a non-specialist, might visit Wikipedia to look up this topic. To the limited extent I have edited or added to articles, I have always had that in mind, especially where I do have some level of expert knowledge of a subject. So, someone comes to this article after seeing an ISBN in a book ad, on an Amazon page, or on a copyright page, and is curious or unclear what it signifies. Also, someone is given an ISBN or told to look a book up via an ISBN as an employer assigned task, when asking for a good book to read from a friend, or when a family member expresses an interest in a particular, exact edition of a book (as part of a gist wish list perhaps). So just the basics (the details and real arcana can go at the end), like: What is an ISBN? What do the parts mean? What is it used for? (this one varies according to next item) By who? Who chooses it? Is it mandatory? Are they unique? Are they the same all over the world? How can I get one for my self-published book? Does it cost money? When did they start issuing them? What about books published (and not altered/revised) before then? Why did publishers/booksellers decide they needed ISBNs?, and so on. Many of these are already answered, but even these are scattered about the article, where they might all be addressed in the first overview section, and then elaborated and amplified later. It's really more of an organizational issue, compounded with the distraction of the math discussion being featured early. I see this a lot with articles about prescription drugs, among other things, which often talk over the heads of even MDs (written by/for biochemists/pharmacologists, it would seem), to say nothing of laypeople.
Googlyelmo 21:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Another remark about the math and number theory: the predominant discussion on this talk page is about number theory and the math associated with the ISBN numbering system, and in combination with the emphasis (too much and too early in my opinion) on this in the article itself, it begs the question: Who in practice uses this to verify the validity of a given ISBN? What I mean is, why would one suspect a given ISBN of being invalid? What would prompt that suspicion? Second, once one does suspect an ISBN of being invalid, is there a straightforward method for checking the number? Maybe that was covered in the article, but I couldn't work it out amid all mathematical discussion. I'll add that to my suggestions: in addition to re-focusing on user-oriented infoout the ISBN and system as I propose above, the math and validity checking procedures might be rewritten to enable someone without more than good arithmetic and very basic algebra to actually and practically check an ISBN for validity. Googlyelmo 23:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Recent edits have replaced 'group identifier' with 'group identifier code number.' Looking at the web site http://www.isbn.org, I see only the simpler phrase 'group identifier'. I would like to remove 'code number' from the article unless there are objections. EdJohnston 02:58, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
This borders on Trivia (which is discouraged by Wikipedia) for someone interested in finding out about ISBN numbers. It smacks of anti-Chinese politics which I think has no place here Ray3055 ( talk) 11:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
The suggestion about using very large weights with a very large modulus misses the point: ISBN only uses 10 symbols (along with the X in ISBN-10). Commerce is based on 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, so something with modulus 100000000000 is not sensible.
As for modulus 20, it is false that alternating weights 1 and 3 will detect all adjacent transposition errors. A system of weights will detect all adjacent transposition errors only when the difference of consecutive weights is relatively prime to the modulus in use. Since 3-1 = 2, there's a problem here with modulus 20, which is not relatively prime to 2.
The choice of weights has nothing at all to do with the length of the weights in terms of their digits (using 1, 10, 100, 1000, and so on, say) and everything to do with the divisibility relations among the weights and the modulus. At the very least, a sensible system of weights should be relatively prime to the modulus to get the most common error (single-digit errors) always detected. This follows from Bezout's identity in number theory.
The point of using a prime modulus is that all positive integers less than it are relatively prime to it, and that makes the detection of all adjacent transposition errors feasible without much work needed. This is impossible for the standard weight-based modular check digit methods if the modulus is even. Of course the prime 2 is useless. But the *mathematical* features of primes make a difference, so the choice of modulus 11 (not too far from 10, which has ad hoc historical relevance to humans) is sensible.
There are some articles by Joe Gallian about check digit methods which explain the math behind this.
Concerning the footnote about Springer codes in English and German having the same check digit, I have no idea how publisher codes are assigned
but it had to have been planned by Springer in some way to get the publisher codes they did; maybe they made a request or something. Because if
their publisher codes in English and German were just randomly selected for them then there is no way their check digits in English and German with the
same product code would lead to the same check digit every time. I noticed this systematic feature when looking at ISBNs on books on a shelf at a university library.
For Springer, their language+publisher code a-bcd in ISBN-10 always has the feature that 10a + 9b + 8c + 7d = 3 mod 11. A random choice of
digits for a,b,c,d would not behave like this! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
137.99.17.121 (
talk) 5 April, 2007.
"In fact, no system of weights used to compute a check digit based on modulus 10 (or any even modulus) can detect all single digit errors and adjacent transposition errors."
Well how about weights 1000000000 100000000 10000000 1000000 100000 10000 1000 100 10 1 modulus 100000000000000? And we talk about primes, 2 is a prime, but not very useful. Do we mean "co-prime with and larger than 10"? Rich Farmbrough, 15:47 4 September 2006 (GMT).
Wouldn't it be good to say something re. the origins of SBN codes. I had always assumed that ISBN codes came into operation in 1970, because it is on this date that you start finding the numbers appearing on the books themselves. As to the SBN codes, I notice, for instance, that an SBN code appears on HSMO publications as early as 1959. Cf: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0116700750/026-0325148-9310042.
When and by whom were SBNs conceived? What is the story behind prefix '1'?
The ISBN page is a magnet for spam links. It happens that people will add items to the External Links section with no history comment and with no discussion on the talk page. When this happens, those links may be removed by other editors in regular cleanups. Please propose your new link here and explain its value (with reference to what is already available) if you don't want it to be cleaned out. ( You can help!) EdJohnston 21:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
ISBN10 to 13 batch conversion There is a good free ISBN10-ISBN13 Conversion tool online. Difference between this tool and others is that it can handle batch ISBN conversions, unlike the others, that simply do them one-by-one. I thought it might be a helpful link. Dariyam 21:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
List of ISBN publisher codes Here is a list of ISBN publisher codes for the English language (from http://blog.openlibrary.org/2009/07/20/isbn-publisher-codes/ where there is also a link for the publishing houses starting with 2 and 3. Fabrivelas ( talk) 13:36, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Since the ISBN check digit is a means of finding and correcting errors, it is of interest to know if and when the actual checks get performed. Does anyone object if the following words are added to the article?
I thought that the format was one digit for the language, four digits for the publisher, four digits for the item number, and one digit for the check.-- Luke Elms 14:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
When adding an example two months ago an editor used the following language:
There is more discussion of this on User_talk:Pascal666. Unless anyone objects I am planning to remove the phrase 'The check digit happens to coincide'. I actually don't see the problem with it, but I also don't see why it would have been considered advantageous by Springer in the first place. A coinciding check digit might increase the chances of mixing up two distinct ISBNs. EdJohnston 19:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I added a link to OttoBib.com—–Free tool to generate an alphabetized bibliography from a list of ISBN numbers in MLA, APA, or Chicago/ Turabian format (with a permalink). I did not post it here first because it is an extremely useful tool for citing sources. Dhaluza 15:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone ever thought of starting an ISBN Prefix List page with coresponding publishers? For example:
0-7645 :
Wiley Publishing, Inc.
1-56592 :
O'Reilly Media, Inc.
2-07 :
Les Éditions Gallimard
And so on...
Bpg1968 01:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Content moved to wikipedia talk:ISBN
See http://www.isbn-international.org/converter/ranges.htm for details.
Broadly:
0 English speaking areas 1 English speaking areas 2 French speaking areas 3 German speaking areas 4 Japan 5 Former USSR 60x various 7 China 8x various: see the cite above for details 9x various: see the cite above for details 92 International organizations as publishers
I know that ISBNs are 10 digits: language digit, dash, publisher code, dash, book number, dash, check digit. Is a book uniquely identified if dashes aren't given? I.e. could there be different books with ISBNs:
The article uses the phrase 'Language code', but there is no recognition of that phrase at isbn.org. I propose replacing it with 'Group identifier', which is their official term. Some extra words would be added to explain how it's generally used. Let me know if anyone objects. In fact, it's not really a language code, it's a code for a group of countries that (in most cases) happen to share a language. Any book issued by a publisher in that set of countries gets the given group identifier, regardless of the language of the book. That's how Springer can issue English-language books in Germany with group identifier '3'. And how a publisher in Iran (with group identifier 964) can issue a book in the Azeri dialect of Turkish [1]. This clarification might benefit Wikipedia's ISBN-fixers when searching for books in languages other than English. EdJohnston 22:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Why is this article opted out of bot attention entirely? -- nae' blis 01:02, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
194.154.66.232 22:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
How does ISBN-13 solve the "pending shortage in certain ISBN categories" if all it does is prefix an ISBN-10 with 978 or 979? Njál 21:52, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
At present this article has 20 external links. (Probably too many to have it be accepted as a featured article). Does anyone have time to carefully study the remaining links and recommend here, on the Talk page, which ones we can do without? As an example, I think we have too many different links to 'conversion aids'. If we are going to keep all those links we at least we should at least add some text to the article about conversion. EdJohnston 16:20, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Is ISBN 13 less capable of detecting errors, or equally capable but less capable of detecting transposition errors which are perhaps one of the most common forms of errors (i.e. it's better at detecting other errors)? I presuming it's the later so I've clarified the article accordingly. Obviously if transposition errors are more common then other types of errors then by not being so good at detecting transposition errors ISBN 13 may be less likely to detect errors but it would still arguably be equally capable Nil Einne 15:24, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
The article said:
0 instead of 11? No number mod 11 could possibly result in 11 in the first place. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.217.22.128 ( talk) 05:05, 10 May 2007 (UTC).
The check-digit substitution in the article is incorrect and should be fixed. The algorithm is to substitute a 0 for a 10, and substitute an "X" for 11.
http://www.bisg.org/isbn-13/conversions.html#Algorithm%20for%20checking%20the%2010-digit%20ISBN —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dzurn ( talk • contribs) 05:45, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
What's the source on the pronounciation for "ISBN"? I've never heard anyone pronounce it this way. It's not a word or an acronym, it's an initialism. So, it should be pronounced "I-S-B-N." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.217.163.48 ( talk) 07:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC).
Is it correct that there is no way to see the correct hyphenation of a given ISBN without consulting an external source, like the book itself etc.? (I.e. given 012345689 may it theoretically be hyphened 0-12-34567-89, but also 0123-4567-89)? Thanks. Jakob.scholbach 03:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
There is a list of ranges which tells you where the hyphens should be placed, but I have temporarily mislaid my link. In the meantime, there are several people who fix ISBN formats: maybe you could ask them? HTH HAND Phil | Talk 11:19, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
no, it's not correct. the hyphen placement can be determined from only the number. [2] — Chris Capoccia T⁄ C 10:36, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately, this article doesn't tell, which lead me to find the answer from
http://www.bisg.org/isbn-13/faq.html
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/iso/tc46sc9/isbn.htm
And
which prompts me to request the article writer to either append these two links or amend the content.
... or you could make the edits yourself. This is an open source encyclopaedia. You are the article writer. Have fun! ElectricRay 23:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I have come across a book with only one page and is of ISBN number. I would like to check if it is a valid number assigned to the book. Please add the knowledge of that. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.82.228.37 ( talk) 11 July, 2007
Book Industry Study Group suggests a certain 5-digit price add-on structure for the ISBN-13 with price add-on.
* First digit is "5" for $US * First digit is "4" for $CAN
Add-on seems to be mandatory for several US retailers.
Question: are there any other examples for other countries than US/CAN in this respect? Has anyone seen price add-ons say in Germany or France?
Gs1mo 13:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I have been told (BSIG) that price add-on is specific to US market only. To be specific it's mandated only by Barnes & Noble
Gs1mo 14:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to thank whoever wrote the section Check digit in ISBN-10. I needed to cite a publication with the old ISBN 2-88145-076. 9-digit ISBNs are not recognized by the Wiki ISBN magic but, using the article, I was able to manually calculate the check digit to give ISBN 2-88145-076-8. Again, thank you. HairyWombat 22:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Yep, looks like the ISBN is defective. The publication was by the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva. Although the publication is in English, Geneva is French speaking which would explain the leading "2". I found a contact page for the ICRC's Library and Research Service, and have asked them for the correct ISBN. Until they get back to me I have listed the defective one. HairyWombat 23:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I think that this article would be greatly improved of the explanation of the format of ISBNs and the method of their calculation/assignment were simplified. As it is, I found the mathematics (expecially the detailed discussion of modulo and modulus) to be lacking clarity and truly confusing. The tone, with the lack of deferential explanation to the non-mathematician, indicate an orientation other than towards readers, editors, or even librarians, which is to say ISBN users. When I read this article, I felt a bit like I had looked up telephone area codes and instead of seeing a list, I read a technical explanation of why the middle digit once could only be a '1' or '0' and how phone systems were badly fouled up for more than a year after other numerals were introduced. That wouldn't be helpful or appropriate for such an entry, and this one fails on the same account.
I don't propose that this information be removed, but rather that a more direct, practical, non-technical (in a mathematical sense) explication of ISBNs be added, and that perhaps the detailed math moved further down into the article. As it is, after the "Overview" section, the math associated with ISBNs is put forth as the central and most vital information on the subject. I don't think this is the case. For Wikipedia users (as for most encyclopedias, except specialized or technical ones) who will most often be readers, booksellers, or others using/buying/selling/caring for books, the most sought information is simply how to parse or interpret an ISBN, followed by why they are needed or required, their history, the assigning body or authority, and finally by the more special interest information of the formulas and math/math theory that is here.
I am not myself a good candidate to do this editing. That person would more ideally be a librarian or bookseller who better understands and is more experienced in the pragmatics of ISBNs (and they are what else other than practical?), and who perhaps also understands the math at least well enough to re-write the article to include the mathematical info in a more clear and appropriate (in tone, position, and proportion) manner. Googlyelmo 19:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
It is the second through fourth sections/paragraphs, following the initial section under the heading "Overview". These go into great detail about the formulas for arriving at the check digits of both the 10 and 13 digit ISBN. Yes, splitting this to another article, with appropriate pointer/link, might help. Most of the information necessary to interpret ISBNs seems already to be present, though it is scattered over several sections (not at all uncommon for an article with multiple, successive writers and editors, none of whom truly collaborate, in the contemporaneous sense). Some amplification and elaboration of how ISBNs are used, by whom, and for what purpose might improve the article. Just imagine why someone, a non-specialist, might visit Wikipedia to look up this topic. To the limited extent I have edited or added to articles, I have always had that in mind, especially where I do have some level of expert knowledge of a subject. So, someone comes to this article after seeing an ISBN in a book ad, on an Amazon page, or on a copyright page, and is curious or unclear what it signifies. Also, someone is given an ISBN or told to look a book up via an ISBN as an employer assigned task, when asking for a good book to read from a friend, or when a family member expresses an interest in a particular, exact edition of a book (as part of a gist wish list perhaps). So just the basics (the details and real arcana can go at the end), like: What is an ISBN? What do the parts mean? What is it used for? (this one varies according to next item) By who? Who chooses it? Is it mandatory? Are they unique? Are they the same all over the world? How can I get one for my self-published book? Does it cost money? When did they start issuing them? What about books published (and not altered/revised) before then? Why did publishers/booksellers decide they needed ISBNs?, and so on. Many of these are already answered, but even these are scattered about the article, where they might all be addressed in the first overview section, and then elaborated and amplified later. It's really more of an organizational issue, compounded with the distraction of the math discussion being featured early. I see this a lot with articles about prescription drugs, among other things, which often talk over the heads of even MDs (written by/for biochemists/pharmacologists, it would seem), to say nothing of laypeople.
Googlyelmo 21:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Another remark about the math and number theory: the predominant discussion on this talk page is about number theory and the math associated with the ISBN numbering system, and in combination with the emphasis (too much and too early in my opinion) on this in the article itself, it begs the question: Who in practice uses this to verify the validity of a given ISBN? What I mean is, why would one suspect a given ISBN of being invalid? What would prompt that suspicion? Second, once one does suspect an ISBN of being invalid, is there a straightforward method for checking the number? Maybe that was covered in the article, but I couldn't work it out amid all mathematical discussion. I'll add that to my suggestions: in addition to re-focusing on user-oriented infoout the ISBN and system as I propose above, the math and validity checking procedures might be rewritten to enable someone without more than good arithmetic and very basic algebra to actually and practically check an ISBN for validity. Googlyelmo 23:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Recent edits have replaced 'group identifier' with 'group identifier code number.' Looking at the web site http://www.isbn.org, I see only the simpler phrase 'group identifier'. I would like to remove 'code number' from the article unless there are objections. EdJohnston 02:58, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
This borders on Trivia (which is discouraged by Wikipedia) for someone interested in finding out about ISBN numbers. It smacks of anti-Chinese politics which I think has no place here Ray3055 ( talk) 11:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
The suggestion about using very large weights with a very large modulus misses the point: ISBN only uses 10 symbols (along with the X in ISBN-10). Commerce is based on 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, so something with modulus 100000000000 is not sensible.
As for modulus 20, it is false that alternating weights 1 and 3 will detect all adjacent transposition errors. A system of weights will detect all adjacent transposition errors only when the difference of consecutive weights is relatively prime to the modulus in use. Since 3-1 = 2, there's a problem here with modulus 20, which is not relatively prime to 2.
The choice of weights has nothing at all to do with the length of the weights in terms of their digits (using 1, 10, 100, 1000, and so on, say) and everything to do with the divisibility relations among the weights and the modulus. At the very least, a sensible system of weights should be relatively prime to the modulus to get the most common error (single-digit errors) always detected. This follows from Bezout's identity in number theory.
The point of using a prime modulus is that all positive integers less than it are relatively prime to it, and that makes the detection of all adjacent transposition errors feasible without much work needed. This is impossible for the standard weight-based modular check digit methods if the modulus is even. Of course the prime 2 is useless. But the *mathematical* features of primes make a difference, so the choice of modulus 11 (not too far from 10, which has ad hoc historical relevance to humans) is sensible.
There are some articles by Joe Gallian about check digit methods which explain the math behind this.
Concerning the footnote about Springer codes in English and German having the same check digit, I have no idea how publisher codes are assigned
but it had to have been planned by Springer in some way to get the publisher codes they did; maybe they made a request or something. Because if
their publisher codes in English and German were just randomly selected for them then there is no way their check digits in English and German with the
same product code would lead to the same check digit every time. I noticed this systematic feature when looking at ISBNs on books on a shelf at a university library.
For Springer, their language+publisher code a-bcd in ISBN-10 always has the feature that 10a + 9b + 8c + 7d = 3 mod 11. A random choice of
digits for a,b,c,d would not behave like this! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
137.99.17.121 (
talk) 5 April, 2007.
"In fact, no system of weights used to compute a check digit based on modulus 10 (or any even modulus) can detect all single digit errors and adjacent transposition errors."
Well how about weights 1000000000 100000000 10000000 1000000 100000 10000 1000 100 10 1 modulus 100000000000000? And we talk about primes, 2 is a prime, but not very useful. Do we mean "co-prime with and larger than 10"? Rich Farmbrough, 15:47 4 September 2006 (GMT).
Wouldn't it be good to say something re. the origins of SBN codes. I had always assumed that ISBN codes came into operation in 1970, because it is on this date that you start finding the numbers appearing on the books themselves. As to the SBN codes, I notice, for instance, that an SBN code appears on HSMO publications as early as 1959. Cf: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0116700750/026-0325148-9310042.
When and by whom were SBNs conceived? What is the story behind prefix '1'?
The ISBN page is a magnet for spam links. It happens that people will add items to the External Links section with no history comment and with no discussion on the talk page. When this happens, those links may be removed by other editors in regular cleanups. Please propose your new link here and explain its value (with reference to what is already available) if you don't want it to be cleaned out. ( You can help!) EdJohnston 21:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
ISBN10 to 13 batch conversion There is a good free ISBN10-ISBN13 Conversion tool online. Difference between this tool and others is that it can handle batch ISBN conversions, unlike the others, that simply do them one-by-one. I thought it might be a helpful link. Dariyam 21:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
List of ISBN publisher codes Here is a list of ISBN publisher codes for the English language (from http://blog.openlibrary.org/2009/07/20/isbn-publisher-codes/ where there is also a link for the publishing houses starting with 2 and 3. Fabrivelas ( talk) 13:36, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Since the ISBN check digit is a means of finding and correcting errors, it is of interest to know if and when the actual checks get performed. Does anyone object if the following words are added to the article?
I thought that the format was one digit for the language, four digits for the publisher, four digits for the item number, and one digit for the check.-- Luke Elms 14:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
When adding an example two months ago an editor used the following language:
There is more discussion of this on User_talk:Pascal666. Unless anyone objects I am planning to remove the phrase 'The check digit happens to coincide'. I actually don't see the problem with it, but I also don't see why it would have been considered advantageous by Springer in the first place. A coinciding check digit might increase the chances of mixing up two distinct ISBNs. EdJohnston 19:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I added a link to OttoBib.com—–Free tool to generate an alphabetized bibliography from a list of ISBN numbers in MLA, APA, or Chicago/ Turabian format (with a permalink). I did not post it here first because it is an extremely useful tool for citing sources. Dhaluza 15:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone ever thought of starting an ISBN Prefix List page with coresponding publishers? For example:
0-7645 :
Wiley Publishing, Inc.
1-56592 :
O'Reilly Media, Inc.
2-07 :
Les Éditions Gallimard
And so on...
Bpg1968 01:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)