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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Hypercorrection was copied or moved into Hyperforeignism with this edit on 2011-07-15. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
This article has been completely mucked up. It is divided by language, but makes no distinction between mispronunciations by English speakers of words derived from a given foreign language and mispronunciations by speakers of that language. It needs a radical sorting out; and was rather better in its earlier form when it was part of Hypercorrection. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 11:04, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
"French bureau, meaning desk, is usually pronounced /ˈbyːr.ɔ/ in Swedish, with a strong accent on the first syllable, although this is not a common way to accentuate nouns in Swedish" - This doesn't seem right. If I recall correctly, native Swedish nouns are normally stressed on the first syllable, while loanwords from French are normally pronounced on the final syllable or near-abouts. I think this needs either clarification, or might be a mistake. A native speaker might help enlighten the situation though. Ceigered ( talk) 14:53, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Absolutely right, Swedish words are stressed on the first vowel. The few words that work otherwise have an accent on the last vowel. Take "kaffe" versus "kafé" or "café" - the former being coffee, and the latter two meaning cafe (if this isn't obvious). The vowels are stressed either the first (default), or per the accent. Another example would be "ide" versus "idé" - the former is where bears hibernate, the latter is an idea. It gets harder at more advanced levels, where the exact same spelling can be delivered subtly differently - "tomten" can mean either a type of elf/Santa Claus or a specific plot of land. 76.97.240.138 ( talk) 15:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC) krigsmakten
The Swedish mispronunciation of 'entrecôte' without the final /t/ sound is also common in the Netherlands, especially in pretentious restaurants, and people who pronounce it properly are often 'corrected'. Belgian Dutch-speakers (who are far more familiar with French) generally pronounce the word correctly, and make fun of their northern neighbours' hypercorrect 'entre-KOH'. Another common error in the Netherlands (but probably also elsewhere) is 'tequilla' for 'tequila' - having misspelled the word in the first place, Dutch-speakers then show off their 'knowledge' of Spanish by pronouncing the 'll' as in 'paella', and again 'correct' people who make it rhyme with 'Sheila' (just as in Spanish). Other common Dutch errors are the omission of the final /s/ sound in '(Louis) de Funès (the name is originally Spanish, and like most French proper names in -ès has an audible 's') and in the Swiss place name 'Davos' (the name is Romanche, not French, so the 's' should again be audible). All this has a lot to do with Dutch-speakers' conviction that they, and only they, are good at foreign languages! Another common Dutch error is to stress the first syllable of 'record' in 'record-knop' (the 'record button' on sound equipment), since they are usually unaware that the verb and the noun are pronounced differently - not exactly hypercorrection, but a related type of error. Perhaps there should be a separate section on Dutch in this article. 213.127.210.95 ( talk) 15:48, 27 July 2015 (UTC) Oops, my own error in saying 'Davos' is Romanche - the Romanche name is 'Tavau', and 'Davos' (pronounced with a German 'v' sound, i.e. /f/) is the local German name. But in any case it isn't French, so my general comment stands! 213.127.210.95 ( talk) 16:02, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
There are no /ʒ/ or /dʒ/ sounds in Russian version of "Beijing" since it's not (Бейджин/Beijing) or (Бейжин/Beizhing) but (Пекин/Pekin). As you can see theese are literally different words. Maybe my incompetence in linguistics is to blame for my confusion, but in this case the connection between "Beijing" and Russian letter Zhe (Ж) should be explained more clearly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.167.39.46 ( talk) 11:55, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
The surname of the late Chilean dictator Agosto Pinochet was French in origin. Pbrower2a ( talk) 01:00, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
It's my understanding that the accent on latté is put there to mark that you pronounce the e, versus the e being silent. -- Necrㅎ Шea mö 18:09, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Given spellings of "Rooibosch" and "veldschoen" do not exist in Afrikaans. Correct spellings are "Rooibos" and "veldskoen". The "sch" letter combination is pronounced equivalently to its German counterpart, as in the surname "Bosch". This section is thus completely inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.221.46.130 ( talk) 13:37, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
"The word parmesan, though it denotes an Italian cheese, derives its spelling from French and should therefore be pronounced /ˈpɑːrməzɑːn/".
Final -an in French is not pronounced /ɑːn/, but rather /ɑ̃/, and unstressed English vowels tend to become /ə/, so the proposed pronunciation is not correct. — 91.238.123.116 ( talk) 12:42, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
Under Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy, Wikipedia adopts an impartial tone: "Wikipedia describes disputes. Wikipedia does not engage in disputes.". Describing certain pronunciations as "mispronunciations" or "incorrect" is a clear violation of this policy, unless these claims are sourced and attributed to the source rather than to Wikipedia (e.g. According to XXX Pronunciation Guide, pronouncing the final S in "Paris" is incorrect and the sign of an ignoramus).
I'm restoring the edit that removed the POV: please discuss here before restoring. Grover cleveland ( talk) 14:00, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
In summary, there's a difference between "incorrect" in the sense of "not accepted in educated speech" and "incorrect" in the sense of "originally founded on a factual error". A hyperforeignism, like a back-formation or a folk etymology, remains a hyperforeignism (or whatever), even if the resulting pronunciation becomes universally accepted over the course of time. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 17:00, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
pronouncing nuclear /'njukjələr/ is only incorrect if you're aiming for the standard pronunciation; if you're aiming to pronounce it as your buddies do, which is entirely reasonable, then that may well be precisely the right pronunciation (and /'njukliər/ in that context might reasonably be described as wrong).
Thus, instead of saying "the term is French and ought be pronounced X but is instead pronounced Y." the better way to word this would be that the term, coming from French, would suggest a pronunciation of X. Instead, it is pronounced Y, suggesting an origin from Italian. Do you see the difference? I have changed "ought" to "is" and thereby removed prescriptivist (and therefore inherently POV) language while retaining the same information.
I've removed the following material as unsourced opinion:
Grover cleveland (
talk) 02:40, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Doesn't the English section have a spectrum from true hyperforeignisms to foreign words whose pronunciation is merely incorrect (rather than being more foreign-sounding than it actually is), with some in between? Mezzo and dacha struck me as the most clearcut cases in which what should be the pronunciation is foreign in a different way than the common pronunciation (no less foreign-sounding, just different). Adagio, bruschetta and Raj/Taj could also be put in that class; only the fact that the common pronunciations employ softer consonants than the more faithful pronunciations make them fit at all with the concept of hyperforeignisms. I haven't deleted any of those examples because I'm new to this discussion, but I'm curious what other people here think. Jbening ( talk) 02:56, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Not a hyperforeignism. See here. It's just a matter of whether the word is Greek (and presumably originally a chi) or German in origin, but once it's no longer spelled in italics, the case is made that it's been adopted as English. SCHool and SCHedule and SCHeme, but SCHlep and SCHmaltz and SCHnapps. Yiddishisms might be more rare in Commonwealth countries than North American English, but over the past 6-7 decades they are no longer ethno-linguistic or regional varieties, but basic and accepted standard English. For instance, New Yorkers of all ethnicities would ask for a SCHmear of cream cheese on a bagel without a thought about it as that's just the word for it. JesseRafe ( talk) 15:32, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
The given examples of hyperforeignisms in Russian are obsolete. Maybe in 1950s some old people would speak like that, but, as of 2000s, you won't hear such pronunciation even from 80-year-old intellectuals. 128.72.116.212 ( talk) 14:06, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
was sometimes pronounced with a "u" instead of "a" (meaning the first vocal). I am using here the German pronounciation of these vocals. Stephphie ( talk) 12:25, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||
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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Hypercorrection was copied or moved into Hyperforeignism with this edit on 2011-07-15. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
This article has been completely mucked up. It is divided by language, but makes no distinction between mispronunciations by English speakers of words derived from a given foreign language and mispronunciations by speakers of that language. It needs a radical sorting out; and was rather better in its earlier form when it was part of Hypercorrection. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 11:04, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
"French bureau, meaning desk, is usually pronounced /ˈbyːr.ɔ/ in Swedish, with a strong accent on the first syllable, although this is not a common way to accentuate nouns in Swedish" - This doesn't seem right. If I recall correctly, native Swedish nouns are normally stressed on the first syllable, while loanwords from French are normally pronounced on the final syllable or near-abouts. I think this needs either clarification, or might be a mistake. A native speaker might help enlighten the situation though. Ceigered ( talk) 14:53, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Absolutely right, Swedish words are stressed on the first vowel. The few words that work otherwise have an accent on the last vowel. Take "kaffe" versus "kafé" or "café" - the former being coffee, and the latter two meaning cafe (if this isn't obvious). The vowels are stressed either the first (default), or per the accent. Another example would be "ide" versus "idé" - the former is where bears hibernate, the latter is an idea. It gets harder at more advanced levels, where the exact same spelling can be delivered subtly differently - "tomten" can mean either a type of elf/Santa Claus or a specific plot of land. 76.97.240.138 ( talk) 15:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC) krigsmakten
The Swedish mispronunciation of 'entrecôte' without the final /t/ sound is also common in the Netherlands, especially in pretentious restaurants, and people who pronounce it properly are often 'corrected'. Belgian Dutch-speakers (who are far more familiar with French) generally pronounce the word correctly, and make fun of their northern neighbours' hypercorrect 'entre-KOH'. Another common error in the Netherlands (but probably also elsewhere) is 'tequilla' for 'tequila' - having misspelled the word in the first place, Dutch-speakers then show off their 'knowledge' of Spanish by pronouncing the 'll' as in 'paella', and again 'correct' people who make it rhyme with 'Sheila' (just as in Spanish). Other common Dutch errors are the omission of the final /s/ sound in '(Louis) de Funès (the name is originally Spanish, and like most French proper names in -ès has an audible 's') and in the Swiss place name 'Davos' (the name is Romanche, not French, so the 's' should again be audible). All this has a lot to do with Dutch-speakers' conviction that they, and only they, are good at foreign languages! Another common Dutch error is to stress the first syllable of 'record' in 'record-knop' (the 'record button' on sound equipment), since they are usually unaware that the verb and the noun are pronounced differently - not exactly hypercorrection, but a related type of error. Perhaps there should be a separate section on Dutch in this article. 213.127.210.95 ( talk) 15:48, 27 July 2015 (UTC) Oops, my own error in saying 'Davos' is Romanche - the Romanche name is 'Tavau', and 'Davos' (pronounced with a German 'v' sound, i.e. /f/) is the local German name. But in any case it isn't French, so my general comment stands! 213.127.210.95 ( talk) 16:02, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
There are no /ʒ/ or /dʒ/ sounds in Russian version of "Beijing" since it's not (Бейджин/Beijing) or (Бейжин/Beizhing) but (Пекин/Pekin). As you can see theese are literally different words. Maybe my incompetence in linguistics is to blame for my confusion, but in this case the connection between "Beijing" and Russian letter Zhe (Ж) should be explained more clearly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.167.39.46 ( talk) 11:55, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
The surname of the late Chilean dictator Agosto Pinochet was French in origin. Pbrower2a ( talk) 01:00, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
It's my understanding that the accent on latté is put there to mark that you pronounce the e, versus the e being silent. -- Necrㅎ Шea mö 18:09, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Given spellings of "Rooibosch" and "veldschoen" do not exist in Afrikaans. Correct spellings are "Rooibos" and "veldskoen". The "sch" letter combination is pronounced equivalently to its German counterpart, as in the surname "Bosch". This section is thus completely inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.221.46.130 ( talk) 13:37, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
"The word parmesan, though it denotes an Italian cheese, derives its spelling from French and should therefore be pronounced /ˈpɑːrməzɑːn/".
Final -an in French is not pronounced /ɑːn/, but rather /ɑ̃/, and unstressed English vowels tend to become /ə/, so the proposed pronunciation is not correct. — 91.238.123.116 ( talk) 12:42, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
Under Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy, Wikipedia adopts an impartial tone: "Wikipedia describes disputes. Wikipedia does not engage in disputes.". Describing certain pronunciations as "mispronunciations" or "incorrect" is a clear violation of this policy, unless these claims are sourced and attributed to the source rather than to Wikipedia (e.g. According to XXX Pronunciation Guide, pronouncing the final S in "Paris" is incorrect and the sign of an ignoramus).
I'm restoring the edit that removed the POV: please discuss here before restoring. Grover cleveland ( talk) 14:00, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
In summary, there's a difference between "incorrect" in the sense of "not accepted in educated speech" and "incorrect" in the sense of "originally founded on a factual error". A hyperforeignism, like a back-formation or a folk etymology, remains a hyperforeignism (or whatever), even if the resulting pronunciation becomes universally accepted over the course of time. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 17:00, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
pronouncing nuclear /'njukjələr/ is only incorrect if you're aiming for the standard pronunciation; if you're aiming to pronounce it as your buddies do, which is entirely reasonable, then that may well be precisely the right pronunciation (and /'njukliər/ in that context might reasonably be described as wrong).
Thus, instead of saying "the term is French and ought be pronounced X but is instead pronounced Y." the better way to word this would be that the term, coming from French, would suggest a pronunciation of X. Instead, it is pronounced Y, suggesting an origin from Italian. Do you see the difference? I have changed "ought" to "is" and thereby removed prescriptivist (and therefore inherently POV) language while retaining the same information.
I've removed the following material as unsourced opinion:
Grover cleveland (
talk) 02:40, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Doesn't the English section have a spectrum from true hyperforeignisms to foreign words whose pronunciation is merely incorrect (rather than being more foreign-sounding than it actually is), with some in between? Mezzo and dacha struck me as the most clearcut cases in which what should be the pronunciation is foreign in a different way than the common pronunciation (no less foreign-sounding, just different). Adagio, bruschetta and Raj/Taj could also be put in that class; only the fact that the common pronunciations employ softer consonants than the more faithful pronunciations make them fit at all with the concept of hyperforeignisms. I haven't deleted any of those examples because I'm new to this discussion, but I'm curious what other people here think. Jbening ( talk) 02:56, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Not a hyperforeignism. See here. It's just a matter of whether the word is Greek (and presumably originally a chi) or German in origin, but once it's no longer spelled in italics, the case is made that it's been adopted as English. SCHool and SCHedule and SCHeme, but SCHlep and SCHmaltz and SCHnapps. Yiddishisms might be more rare in Commonwealth countries than North American English, but over the past 6-7 decades they are no longer ethno-linguistic or regional varieties, but basic and accepted standard English. For instance, New Yorkers of all ethnicities would ask for a SCHmear of cream cheese on a bagel without a thought about it as that's just the word for it. JesseRafe ( talk) 15:32, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
The given examples of hyperforeignisms in Russian are obsolete. Maybe in 1950s some old people would speak like that, but, as of 2000s, you won't hear such pronunciation even from 80-year-old intellectuals. 128.72.116.212 ( talk) 14:06, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
was sometimes pronounced with a "u" instead of "a" (meaning the first vocal). I am using here the German pronounciation of these vocals. Stephphie ( talk) 12:25, 14 February 2024 (UTC)