This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
Why is there a picture of a Westboro Baptist Church protest on this page? It is a fringe group of about 150 people and I think that whoever put it there is doing so just to try and mislead people who don't bother going to the article that this is how all Christians feel about and deal with homosexuals because they don't agree with it. -- E tac 08:15, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
"A protest by The Westboro Baptist Church, a minor religious group not affiliated with any known Baptist conventions or associations."
I object to the use of "a minor religious group not affiliated with any known Baptist conventions or associations." Why would this statement be added but to criticize that group. Why would that have to be pointed out. It's because the writer is biased against them and chooses to inject his/her own opinion. Once you inject your opinion in the article, it becomes a "commentary" and not what it's supposed to be; a neutral "news article", if you will. NoSnooz
I don't see what's insulting about being described as a small religious group. 150 people is not a massive religious movement. It's merely a statement of fact. It isn't someone's opinion that they aren't affiliated with any Baptist conventions; it's the truth, and I don't think that anyone reading that will be biased against the group. Phileosophian 18:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Fixed Lostinlodos 08:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the image suggests anything about Christianity, does it? Westboro has very clearly expressed their disinterest (more like abohoration) for any ideology outside of their own. That aside, it's just a prime example of the issue in question. 74.242.99.231 01:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I would like to rewrite the etymology section slightly to be a bit more clear. After carefully checking the Oxford Shorter English Dictionary (2002), this is what I came up with:
I think this does a better job of clarifying the roots of the two versions of the word. Comments? bikeable (talk) 19:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, arguing that a person who is affiliated with the gay-rights movement is not a valid source for a book on homophobia is sort of like arguing that Malcolm X is not a valid source for a book on racism. I'm assuming you would make the same point if Pat Robertson were writing about homophobia? ;) 192.245.194.253 16:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
When attempting to clarify the definition of what is and is not Homophobia, let us keep in mind that the related term of Homosexuality is not (as some seem to believe) an intrinsic human trait, but is rather a human activity (or conduct) which is definable as engaging in like-gender copulation. Human traits like color or gender are intrinsic to the person and are always present; human activity (or conduct) is not intrinsic, and is subject to regulation by the laws and statutes enacted by legislative bodies, and rules and regulations and policies enacted by private organizations.
A person or group being in opposition to a specific human activity for moral or intellectual reasons is a democratic tradition. For example gambling is a human activity (or conduct) that is prohibited by statute in many jurisdictions, consuming alcohol is another, and engaging in prostitution is another. The reason that these activities are prohibited in some jurisdictions is because local legislative bodies have deemed them to be destructive to society or to individuals, or both. Individuals or groups who oppose these activities on rational grounds are not popularly dismissed with labels like "Alcophobic", "Gameophobic" or "Prostituophobic". Such persons are merely seen as being in opposition to the activities they consider to be vice and at odds with the standards of society.
Conversely if groups or individuals voice opposition to humans with intrinsic traits such as color or gender, then of course, we understand that such opposition is tantamount to bigotry and illegal discrimination. Therefore, when we look at Homophobia in this light, it becomes clear that individuals or groups who are Anti-homosexual are not Homophobic, but rather are rationally opposed to an activity (or conduct) that they consider to be self-destructive, a vice, and/or at odds with the standards of society.
Even if one does not agree with such a person's reasoning process, one must still understand and accept that each person has a right to their own opinion and their own vote and each jurisdiction has a right to pass legislation that regulates conduct within the scope of the Constitution. If we accept this, then I think we must also accept that “rational opposition to Homosexuality” is not synonymous with “an irrational fear of Homosexuals” and is nearly opposite to its meaning. It is therefore my conclusion that “rational opposition to Homosexuality” cannot be the same as, and should be defined separately and apart from, Homophobia (as the word is currently understood).
If there is disagreement with this logic please supply any logic that supports your alternative reasoning.-- Britcom 13:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I haven't really been keeping up with the discussion. However, I thought this news story was significant in the context of the lengthy recent debate over whether "homophobic" is always used as a pejorative slur rather than a self-identifier. Basketball player Tim Hardaway says he is one:
DanB†DanD 05:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Why has phobia been redefined to mean disapproval, opposition or hatred for...? I think this is a prime example of the use the english language as a weapon to enact change in society and ostracize people who hold their own beliefs. Just as some would want to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder there are others who seek the same for homophobia. It seems like a revenge ploy rather than an effort to be equal. I think Homophobia should be defined strictly as a fear of homosexuals, not a dislike or disapproval. Redefining a word doesn't change the opinions people will hold. Personally, I believe that ALL people should be able to speak freely and hold any belief they choose. -- 71.192.88.79 12:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
My understanding of the definition of "homophobia" (especially when used "against" someone) is that it is a reaction to the persons own fears of the possibilty that they themselves could harbor some homosexual tendencies. That is what makes it a "fear" rather than mearly disapproval of the behavior of others. The theory being that the nessesity to act out violently toward anyone percieved as 'weak' is a fear of one's own weakness or fear of being percieved as weak by others. The more anger that a person has toward homosexuals, the more fear they have that that undersirable (to them) quality is w/ in them. I have ALWAYS understood homophobia to be more complex than simply "fear or dislike of homosexuals and/or homosexuality."
Is that controversy important enough to be in the see also section? If we included comments from everyone who makes homophobic remarks we've have a see also section that had hundreds of names on it. The only argument that supports keeping it is that Hardaway self-identified as "homophobic" but even that is not a strong reason to include him here. JoshuaZ 04:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
A phobia had always meant, and has never meant anything other than, "an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation."~Merriam-Webster. In every case of a "phobia," irrationality is at its base. To remove that element is to disqualify it as a phobia in and of itself.
If this Free Encyclopedia is to retain its respectability and reputation, it's important to avoid and guard against "political agenda" in providing what is supposed to be useful, truthful, and factual information.
Please note the entry under the subheading Coinage. The gentleman who coined the term in the early 1970's defined it in 2002 as "just that: a phobia. A morbid and irrational dread which prompts irrational behavior flight or the desire to destroy the stimulus for the phobia and anything reminiscent of it." (see George Weinberg: Love is Conspiratorial, Deviant & Magical - http://www.pflagdetroit.org/george_weinberg.htm)
The proponents for homosexuality and the rights thereof have stripped what they need from the definition in order to broaden the scope of its usage. Doing so has served the express purpose of enabling them to apply the term - with all possible negative stigma - to anyone who disagrees with them or opposes their efforts.
My correction was not political, but accurate. Homophobia, like any phobia, requires that element of irrationality to be part of its definition. To not include it, is to allow the actual definition to become distorted and twisted. If Wikipedia is meant to be merely a Liberal or Secular-Progressive sounding board (as I genuinely hope is not the case), then, by all means, leave it be. However, my corrections are wholly accurate, clear, and undistorted.
Merriam-Webster (an unquestioned authority) defines homophobia as an "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals." Following proper grammar usage, "irrational" applies to all three elements of the definition. Note the pattern of NOUN-PREPOSITION usage. "Irrational" stands alone as the adjective. If it were to be solely applied to the word "fear," they would have worded it as "aversion to, discrimination of, or irrational fear of homosexuality or homosexuals" - or some similar variation in the interest of clarity.
The Oxford English Dictionary defines it as "an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexuals."
Encarta defines it as "irrational hatred of homosexuality: an irrational hatred, disapproval, or fear of homosexuality, gay and lesbian people, or their culture."
I'm quite sure that if you were to consult the Cambridge Dictionary of the English Language, you will find it to include "irrational," as well.
Over the last several months, I have grown to respect this site as a useful and respectable wealth of information. This issue is causing that stance to come into question. At least you have had the wisdom to note the dispute of this definition, at the top of the page.
In the interest of accuracy, politics notwithstanding, I urge you make the correction.
In addition, note my alteration of the following portion:
"It can also mean hatred, hostility, or disapproval of homosexual people, sexual behavior, or cultures, and is generally used to insinuate bigotry.[2] The term homophobic means "prejudiced against homosexual people,"[3] and a person who is homophobic is a homophobe."
My alteration is as follows: [MY CHANGES ARE IN PARENTHESES]
(Proponents for the acceptance of homosexuality have redefined the term to mean any) hatred, hostility, or disapproval of homosexual people, sexual behavior, or cultures, (in order to broaden the scope of its usage, regardless of any rational, objective, or thoughtful objection,) and is generally used to insinuate bigotry.[2] The term homophobic (is only defined as) "prejudiced against homosexual people," (in dictionaries of greatly abbreviated format)[3] and a person who is homophobic is a homophobe.
The changes I have made are in fact truthful. Those who serve as proponents for the acceptance of homosexuality are in fact responsible for this ambiguity in the definition. Please note the source which is sited - www.thefreedictionary.com. This site is more like an online "pocket" dictionary than anything else. It is not an authoritative or established source.
The disclaimer at the bottom of the web site's home page affirms this fact:
"All content on this website, including dictionary, thesaurus, literature, geography, and other reference data is for informational purposes only. This information should not be considered complete, up to date, and is not intended to be used in place of a visit, consultation, or advice of a legal, medical, or any other professional."
Please note the part which clearly states that "This information should not be considered complete..."
From Merriam-Webster's own site: "The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary is based on the print version of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate® Dictionary, Eleventh Edition."
Oxford's online dictionary (www.askoxford.com/dictionaries/), which is the "Compact" edition, retains the fundamental elements of the definition, a well.
I'm writing you neither as a proponent for nor an opponent of the acceptance of homosexuality, homosexuals, or their rights. I am merely concerned with the accuracy of the definition as presented. I am taking the time to address this issue, not for the benefit of any personal political agenda, but rather for the maintenance and safeguarding of Wikipedia's reputation and effort towards accuracy, and with the site's best interests at heart.
I only hope my efforts here do not prove to be in vain.
Be informed that the only reason I discovered this error was due to its having been quoted in a MySpace blog which I happened to have been reading.
The definitions which I referenced can be found by following these links:
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/homophobia http://www.askoxford.com/results/?view=dev_dict&field-12668446=homophobia&branch=13842570&textsearchtype=exact&sortorder=score%2Cname http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/homophobia.html
Cambridge's online dictionary is accessible by subscription only.
Best Regards-- HngKngPhooey 08:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
After having read the information above, as well as, information regarding qualified submissions, I feel compelled to note that my statement that the definition of the word "homophobia" has been stripped of its inclusion of the term "irrational" by those who merely wish to broaden its scope, may be considered unqualified as OPINION/BIAS or Original Research.
Allow me please to now address these issues.
Personal Bias/Opinion and Original Research: My rephrasing of this section of the presented definition does not come from a biased or opinionated position. However, it may be considered "Original Research."
Conscientious objectors recognize the irrationality of actual "homophobia," which is why they object to being labeled with such a term. They are fully aware of the stigma of fear and irrationality that the term implies, and know that it is the very basis for which their opinions and arguments are systematically disregarded out-of-hand. Those who use this term to describe them are aware of this stigma, as well. It's the reason they use it.
In every, and I mean every, instance where this term is been applied to an individual, that person's opinion is, without exception, disregarded and they are dismissed as unqualified or incapable of posing any argument worth considering. Under these circumstances, this term is always said with an unmistakable tone of contempt, condescension, and/or dismissal. "You're just a homophobe" is the most common. The use of the word "just" is notable.
In American English usage, any statement which begins "You're just a..." is meant to insinuate contempt for the person to which to statement is directed, a projected negativity based on the term following that opening, the rejection of that person as an equal or adequate participant in debate, discussion, or activity, or a combination of these elements. It is even used in the reverse by those who wish to exempt themselves from consideration or responsibility for any number of issues. In many cases these statements are followed by some brief statement or question in support of the charge being made.
Examples:
Note the increased negativity or contempt communicated based on the brevity of a supporting statement and how the more negative, severe, or contemptuous the charge, there is generally an absence of any supporting statement or question.
A few examples in the reverse:
As a result, it is my humble suggestion that the ambiguous, unclear and misleading portion of the posted definition should be eliminated in its entirety. The following is a more concise, clear, and strictly qualifying definition:
Homophobia is the irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals.[1] This condition can manifest itself in the form of hatred, hostility, or disapproval of homosexual people, sexual behavior, or cultures. The word homophobic is the adjective form of this word. And, a person who is homophobic is a homophobe. Both terms are generally used to insinuate bigotry.[2]
The word homophobic, when used to label someone as prejudiced against homosexual people, can be a pejorative term, and the identification of a group or person as homophobic is nearly always contested.
Modified References 1. Merriam-Webster (embedded link: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/homophobia) 2. Merriam-Webster's Dictionary 2006 and 11th Collegiate Dictionary, 2005, American Heritage Dictionary. NOTE: Reference 3 should be eliminated, and the list numbering updated to reflect the change.
Again, allow me to stress the importance of granting the coiner of the term due respect by refraining from adulterating the definition of the very word he coined.
As for the person above who thinks that "Homophobia isn't really a phobia," I say the following: Coin a different term for it which does not contain the root word "-phobia." Quit trying to redefine terms to suit your personal opinion or agenda.
As for the response from Britcom, who made the point that Wikipedia is not a dictionary, my response is this: You are right. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. However, when someone submits a page regarding a "term," it is (from all indication) customary to begin the page with the "definition" of the term followed by further information regarding that term. In almost every instance where a page addressing a "term" has been included in this encyclopedia, it begins with a definition of that term.
My issues with this page are and have been solely with the citing of the definition itself. I have in no way asserted a dispute regarding the information cited thereafter.
Say what you will about the term homophobia throughout the remainder of the topic page. However, when citing a definition, it should be as accurate and as clear as possible, as well as, devoid of political perspective or opinion. To allow it to stand as it is, would be to neglect some of the most basic principles which govern this site (yes, I read them).
Best Regards to All -- HngKngPhooey 19:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Note: Actually it was CaveatLector who stated: "Wikipedia is not a dictionary".-- Britcom 20:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
From the definition in the article, two of the dictionary definitions cited include the key point that homophobia is irrational and unreasonable. Leaving this information out is tantamount to dishonesty. Please keep these key parts of the definitions in the article text or do not cite the dictionary definitions. Jinxmchue 18:08, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
The first reference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homophobia Has four definitions. Go look again. Two support the irrational idea, which I am not arguing, but two, simply do not. If unreasoning and irrational are synonymous then why did you put both into the same sentence after the other in one of your edits?
"Homophobia is the unreasoning or irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals."
None of the FOUR definitions on the citation page say 'unreasoning or irrational.' They are either synonymous or their not. Choose.
The second reference a definition from Mirriam-Webster is already included in the first citation and is unnecessarily repetitious, even on the main page. It doesn't reinforce the argument/view to repeat the same information as different citations.
Please assume good faith. I am not picking and choosing to support a POV, so don't speak to my mind. I personally do believe homophobia is irrational but wikipedia is not here to reflect my POV. Don't make assumptions about other people, who may in fact only be trying to serve the greater good, just because they don't agree with your edits.-- ParAmmon ( cheers thanks a lot!) 17:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
(Reset to margin)
Rbj, you have gone from discussing the issues to discussing the editors--and in some fairly negative terms. Is that truly the course you wish to pursue? Justin Eiler 02:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Let us keep in mind here what I think is an excellent observation that
HngKngPhooey made above:
Quote: Merriam-Webster (an unquestioned authority) defines homophobia as an "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals." Following proper grammar usage, "irrational" applies to all three elements of the definition. Note the pattern of NOUN-PREPOSITION usage. "Irrational" stands alone as the adjective.
In other words, s/he is saying above that the MW definition should be understood to mean that Homophobia is: an irrational fear of, or an irrational aversion to, or irrational discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals. I think some may have missed that point. I agree that MW is saying that ALL THREE are qualified by the word "irrational". Also in other words, MW seems to imply that a rational or reasoned fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals is NOT defined as Homophobia, leading us to the conclusion that there must be another term for such reasonable senses. If that is what the definition means, then the article should not be written in a way that conflicts with that meaning, to do so would be misleading. -- Britcom 06:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
i came across this article through a redirect from "anti-homosexualism" clearly HomoPhobia and Anti-Homosexualism are not the same thing i am morally against homosexuality, but am so on reasonable and rational grounds. moral/logical disapproval does not classify as a phobia, which is an irrational fear.
a neutral article on anti-homosexualism would be a good addition to wikipedia,
as all most all articles in the LBGT category present a one-sided and distorted view
leaving no room for those who disapprove homosexuality and have something to add —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
84.53.88.129 (
talk) 13:38, 28 February 2007 (UTC).
(reset indent)
Questions of rationality and irrationality aside, the term "homophobia" is widely used and deserves an entry on Wikipedia. The usage of the term should be, and is, based on the term's uses in reliable sources. The article also, rightly, contains discussion of notable criticism of the term. Whether "anti-homosexualism" deserves a Wikipedia page, and whether it is distinct from homophobia (as described by reliable sources) are irrelevant: the widespread term is "homophobia". If you wish to change English usage, try somewhere other than Wikipedia. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 16:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
It should not be called "Homophobia". Most "Straight" people don't fear homosexuals. It can be more appropriately viewed as "Homonausea". -- Buffer599 23:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
(reset to left)
For the sake of clearing up confusion lets examine what I said (keeping in mind that, for brevity here I often don't expound on all of the facts and research that I have access to unless pressed for it. # 1. There is plenty of evidence that Left-handedness runs in families, at least much of the time, granted, the studies cannot prove this in every case. Left-handedness is more of a tool of conduct rather than a conduct itself. It resides entirely within the person's body, between mind and hand. #2. Sodomy has many definitions both legal and non-legal, when I use the term here I refer exclusively to male/male anal copulation. #3. By "public display", I was referring to so called "Gay Pride" events such as parades, not kissing, same sex people kiss each other in many cultures. #4. Recruitment is used in the above in the same way that Evangelical Christians "recruit" new members to their churches and it includes the recruitment of "straight" people to work for LGBT special rights and the LGBT political agenda. #5 "dressing in drag" is often seen in lesbians (i.e. male-drag) and is also seen in many "Gay Pride" events. #6 this whole "cult" conversation took place merely because I said that "some people" have shown evidence that supports one "hypothesis" that LGBT may be a cult ritual. There are also those who think Homosexuality is an addictive vice similar to gambling or drug use. There are also those who think homosexuality is a psychological disorder or psychiatric disorder possibly caused by child abuse or drug use. There are many hypotheses about it. You can accept or reject any or all of them at your pleasure. #7. None of this information should lead you assume what my position is on the subject matter of this article though, I have been known to play devils advocate or split hairs to foster a more useful debate on a word or definition. I am here to correct what I see as popular misnomers about the definitions of words and slang usages. -- Britcom 17:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
(reset to left)
I have read the above and I concur with the detailed coverage of the opposition to the different usages, but at the end, the site ignores all of the opposition and defines Homophobia as "discrimination" rather than "fear" or "dread". I don't think Homophobia is rightly defined as any form of discrimination (regardless of "sources" to the contrary, I have read the sources and I find most of them contradictory and vague in choosing a definition). Discrimination is an overt act, not a disorder or anxiety of the mind. "Sexism" or "Heterosexism" are perhaps better suited for this sense. I also do not think "opposition" (religious, traditional, cultural, intellectual, etc.) to the homosexual political agenda (special rights, special protections, gay-marriage, etc.) is rightly defined as Homophobia. (notice I said opposition to an agenda, not homosexual people.) I also do no think that opposition to the practice of sodomy should be defined as a form of Homophobia. To do so is expressing a non-neutral political agenda. The Homophobia article should restrict itself to the senses of psychological fear or dread of homosexuals, and the fear of being or becoming a homosexual. The other senses are neologistic and belong elsewhere. -- Britcom 02:26, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Forgive me if I do not do this correctly, as I am new to the editing of these pages. However, while I understand what the critics of the definition are concerned with, I think they miss the point that "homophobia" is a term that has meaning based on common usage and etymology. As a result of these mixed influences, the most accurate definition does not necessarily mean that it is a fair one. That being said, regardless of how fair or just the definition is, I think it is largely accurate.
According to Wikipedia's own listing for "phobias", "homophobia" is listed as a "non-clinical use of the term", therefore to belabour the clinical definition of phobia in this context is not relevant. We may not like the use of a clinical term in a non-clinical context, but that is the reality of this word, therefore the definition is not as inaccurate as is suggested. Further it is consistent with Wiktionary's definition of "homophobia" (though it uses the term "antipathy", the meaning can be read similarly). Perhaps the Wiktionary definition (with the accompanying definition for "antipathy") would be better, but not necessary in my opinion. Jamiearpinricci 16 April 2007
I notice that aside from a few passing references in the "popular culture" section, this article is largely written from a US/UK perspective. While there's no need to duplicate the content of Societal attitudes towards homosexuality, I'm sure that the subject of homophobia has been discussed in non-English-speaking countries, and that scholars have considered homophobia in different cultures worldwide. It would be good if the article reflected this. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 18:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
There is homophobia in every community. White, black, brown, blue, green. I don't see how the black community is more homophobic. So I removed the section. -- Revolución hablar ver 17:40, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I re-added the Westboro Baptist Church image, which had been removed by Techron and replaced with a photo of a student protest. I left the latter photo (and cleaned it up a bit). The WBC photo is an excellent example of homophobia, and deserves to be in the article and highly placed. The ISR photo, by contrast, shows a mostly non-notable student group protesting, which is a couple steps removed from an actual illustration of homophobia. Please discuss here if you have a reason to remove the WBC photo. thanks. bikeable (talk) 16:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
(reset to left; it's getting cramped over here.) Britcom, the ADL page does give of evidence of homophobic behavior (e.g., ...WBC has picketed the gay community at hundreds of events nationwide). This is in no way libelous. Again, we are reporting what the ADL says, not auditing their work. I would ask what evidence would satisfy you of the WBC's homophobia, but from your history here I don't believe that you think that homophobia exists (unless Phelps declares himself to have a "fear", perhaps), and so I don't think this can be resolved to your satisfaction. I would also ask you to avoid wikilawyering. bikeable (talk) 14:52, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Prof. Jonathan I. Katz of Washington University in St. Louis has written an essay on Homophobia which may provide some additional material for this article. Academics have often implied that those who make up their ranks universally agree that homophobia and discrimination against homosexuals is wrong. In his essay, Prof. Katz takes the opposite view. The essay can be found here: [2] -- Britcom 20:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The OED gives the cited Time article as the first of its quotations. Does that mean it was the first time the word appeared in print? I don't know if that's necessarily the same thing. I don't know exactly how the OED chooses quotes; the word may have appeared elsewhere (presumably less mainstream?) earlier. Perhaps we should be clear and say, the first citation by the OED was in.... bikeable (talk) 20:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The OED comits a lot of resources to try and identify the first use of a word. It is possible, but very unlikley that it has been used in print before the Time article. The OED also use the UK and North American Reading Programmes to collect millions of quotations from all over the English-speaking world, and use them as the principal sources of evidence for words used in current English. Recently the OED (full version) has seperated the two uses of homophobia and the current entry simply states 'Fear or hatred of homosexuals and homosexuality' The term homophobic is citied as first appearing in 1971 in a Psychologist report and is defined as 'Pertaining to, characterized by, or exhibiting homophobia; hostile towards homosexuals. Also occas. as n., a person who displays homophobia.'rgds, ||:) johnmark† 16:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, I'm pleased to see this page has improved considerably since I last visited it (no longer 'locked' (which is sometimes necessary on wikipedia, but awfully unfortunate) and with a lot of detail about the etymological problems and criticisms.
Anyway, I changed the definition to Merriam Webster's 'irrational fear or predjudice, etc.' for two reasons; After checking www.dictionary.com, every definition mentioned fear (even the definition formerly used here, in it's uncut form on dictionary.com, uses the word fear) It might also be worth including that quote (from the discussion page) by the fellow who invented the word 'homophobia' (if it isn't already in the article.) Also, I included an "in-text" citation ("Merriam Webster's says") because the statement "Homophobia is" sounds a presumptuous and will immediately prompt curiousity about the sources, etc. (It's great to consign odd details and sources to footnotes when the majority of people aren't going to care about them and the minority can take a few extra seconds to click the links. But, when someone says "Homophobia is," I think a large enough number of people are immediately going to want to know what he's basing that on, to justify an "in text" citation.
Personal rant, now. You needn't read. My own problem with the word 'homophobia' is the inaccuracy of it. I read a movie review which mentions some character who disapproves of homosexuality being 'homophobic' and I immediately wonder if I missed some line of dialogue revealing he was secretly gay. Now, wether people believe in the Bible or not, the argument "Homosexual acts are wrong because the Bible says it is wrong" offers plenty of explanation for why most 'homophobes' don't approve of the activity. Heck, why not create a word called "Shabbathophobic" to describe people with a 'fear' of doing work on the Shabbath. Now, you may or may not agree with the need to refrain from work on the shabath, but you hardly need to explain a Christian (or, more commonly in this case, a Jew) holding a 'shabbathophobic' view in terms of 'fear' Also, something which occured to me about the etymology (although, this sort of thing seems to be much more strongly addressed now) most perjorative words like "racist" don't actually have anything etymologically negative about them. The 'perjorative' aspect is purely through association and the general consensus that racism is bad. When, age 15, I first heard the word 'homophobia' however (in some television 'Public Service' type commercials,) I immediately thought of double-speak from the book (1984) I had just read (in terms of manipulating the public perception through language, I was actually somewhat impressed by the cleverness and/or audaciousness of it.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.164.5.98 ( talk) 18:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC).
Items #1 and #2 on the Reference List are a bit mixed up.
"irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals." ~Merriam-Webster Online
Someone please make the correction.
Also, I'm not too sure the statement, "It can also mean hatred, hostility, or disapproval of homosexual people, sexual behavior, or cultures," is acceptable as a definition.
There are two reasons for this.
One, I am acquainted with a Senior Editor of the American Heritage Dictionary for Houghton Mifflin Company. He informs me that the definition presented in the current printed and online editions of AHD, are sorely inadequate. He has assured me that they will be updated with a more accurate definition. It will read more like Merrian Webster's definition. He informed me that the next printed edition will not be released for some time. However, the online edition of AHD will be updated much, much sooner.
Two, to say that, "It can also mean...." seems more like another attempt to manufacture ligitimacy for the asertions of those who wish to alter it's definition for their own personal political agenda. It doesn't also mean anything. It means what it means, and that's it! Rational disagreement in no way qualifies as an element in ANY phobia. Phobias are by their very nature irrational. Whether that irrationality manifests itself through fear, aversion, or discrimination of, to, or against something or someone, a phobia's irrationality is at the heart of the condition in EVERY instance. Certain people wish to redefine terms to their own liking and usefulness. In order to be able to use a word as a weapon against those who simply disagree, they must adulterate the meaning so that it includes their target. This is reprehensible behavior which should not be tolerated.
The Amish disapprove of electricity. It's a reflection of their adherence to simplicity in life. This is a notion rooted in their spiritual beliefs.
If the disapproval of or aversion to homosexuals or homosexuality is homophobia, then you'd have to say the Amish are "electophobes" for rejecting or disapproving of electicity and it's uses. To do so, of course, is absurd and ridiculous. You'd really have to be some sort of nutcase to think that that made sense. Unfortunately, these are the nutcases we may be dealing with here - and for the same reasons. -- HngKngPhooey 22:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Technically, those who say that the original, literal definition of homophobia is uniquely about fear are correct. They have, however, the misfortune of making this argument in English, and so face issues like trying to explain why sinople's definitions include both green and red, why flammable and inflammable are synonymous, and especially why hemophilia isn't remotely like necrophilia, coprophilia, or zoophilia, despite the use of the same root word. I strongly recommend people visit the etymology and historical linguistics pages for further detail: [3] and [4]
To put it mildly, English words don't just mean their literal, original definitions. Their histories are far beyond this, which is what we see at work with the word "homophobia" -- thugs aren't cultists from India, and calling a black man a Negro, while at one point the socially preferred term, is now considered a racial slur. "Homophobia" is very much alike to these other terms: yes, the literal origin of "phobia" is solely based in fear, but it has not been so defined in some time, allowing for definitions like "aversion" or "hatred" instead.
If people want to clarify that homophobia is a non-clinical term, by all means do so -- the entry on the word "phobia" makes this clear here: [5]. If you wish to argue that opposition to homosexuality does not necessarily include hatred or fear of homosexuals, go right ahead. Arguing the definition of the word, however, is a losing battle. English's evolution isn't consistent enough to justify that. San Diablo 01:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
Why is there a picture of a Westboro Baptist Church protest on this page? It is a fringe group of about 150 people and I think that whoever put it there is doing so just to try and mislead people who don't bother going to the article that this is how all Christians feel about and deal with homosexuals because they don't agree with it. -- E tac 08:15, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
"A protest by The Westboro Baptist Church, a minor religious group not affiliated with any known Baptist conventions or associations."
I object to the use of "a minor religious group not affiliated with any known Baptist conventions or associations." Why would this statement be added but to criticize that group. Why would that have to be pointed out. It's because the writer is biased against them and chooses to inject his/her own opinion. Once you inject your opinion in the article, it becomes a "commentary" and not what it's supposed to be; a neutral "news article", if you will. NoSnooz
I don't see what's insulting about being described as a small religious group. 150 people is not a massive religious movement. It's merely a statement of fact. It isn't someone's opinion that they aren't affiliated with any Baptist conventions; it's the truth, and I don't think that anyone reading that will be biased against the group. Phileosophian 18:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Fixed Lostinlodos 08:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the image suggests anything about Christianity, does it? Westboro has very clearly expressed their disinterest (more like abohoration) for any ideology outside of their own. That aside, it's just a prime example of the issue in question. 74.242.99.231 01:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I would like to rewrite the etymology section slightly to be a bit more clear. After carefully checking the Oxford Shorter English Dictionary (2002), this is what I came up with:
I think this does a better job of clarifying the roots of the two versions of the word. Comments? bikeable (talk) 19:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, arguing that a person who is affiliated with the gay-rights movement is not a valid source for a book on homophobia is sort of like arguing that Malcolm X is not a valid source for a book on racism. I'm assuming you would make the same point if Pat Robertson were writing about homophobia? ;) 192.245.194.253 16:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
When attempting to clarify the definition of what is and is not Homophobia, let us keep in mind that the related term of Homosexuality is not (as some seem to believe) an intrinsic human trait, but is rather a human activity (or conduct) which is definable as engaging in like-gender copulation. Human traits like color or gender are intrinsic to the person and are always present; human activity (or conduct) is not intrinsic, and is subject to regulation by the laws and statutes enacted by legislative bodies, and rules and regulations and policies enacted by private organizations.
A person or group being in opposition to a specific human activity for moral or intellectual reasons is a democratic tradition. For example gambling is a human activity (or conduct) that is prohibited by statute in many jurisdictions, consuming alcohol is another, and engaging in prostitution is another. The reason that these activities are prohibited in some jurisdictions is because local legislative bodies have deemed them to be destructive to society or to individuals, or both. Individuals or groups who oppose these activities on rational grounds are not popularly dismissed with labels like "Alcophobic", "Gameophobic" or "Prostituophobic". Such persons are merely seen as being in opposition to the activities they consider to be vice and at odds with the standards of society.
Conversely if groups or individuals voice opposition to humans with intrinsic traits such as color or gender, then of course, we understand that such opposition is tantamount to bigotry and illegal discrimination. Therefore, when we look at Homophobia in this light, it becomes clear that individuals or groups who are Anti-homosexual are not Homophobic, but rather are rationally opposed to an activity (or conduct) that they consider to be self-destructive, a vice, and/or at odds with the standards of society.
Even if one does not agree with such a person's reasoning process, one must still understand and accept that each person has a right to their own opinion and their own vote and each jurisdiction has a right to pass legislation that regulates conduct within the scope of the Constitution. If we accept this, then I think we must also accept that “rational opposition to Homosexuality” is not synonymous with “an irrational fear of Homosexuals” and is nearly opposite to its meaning. It is therefore my conclusion that “rational opposition to Homosexuality” cannot be the same as, and should be defined separately and apart from, Homophobia (as the word is currently understood).
If there is disagreement with this logic please supply any logic that supports your alternative reasoning.-- Britcom 13:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I haven't really been keeping up with the discussion. However, I thought this news story was significant in the context of the lengthy recent debate over whether "homophobic" is always used as a pejorative slur rather than a self-identifier. Basketball player Tim Hardaway says he is one:
DanB†DanD 05:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Why has phobia been redefined to mean disapproval, opposition or hatred for...? I think this is a prime example of the use the english language as a weapon to enact change in society and ostracize people who hold their own beliefs. Just as some would want to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder there are others who seek the same for homophobia. It seems like a revenge ploy rather than an effort to be equal. I think Homophobia should be defined strictly as a fear of homosexuals, not a dislike or disapproval. Redefining a word doesn't change the opinions people will hold. Personally, I believe that ALL people should be able to speak freely and hold any belief they choose. -- 71.192.88.79 12:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
My understanding of the definition of "homophobia" (especially when used "against" someone) is that it is a reaction to the persons own fears of the possibilty that they themselves could harbor some homosexual tendencies. That is what makes it a "fear" rather than mearly disapproval of the behavior of others. The theory being that the nessesity to act out violently toward anyone percieved as 'weak' is a fear of one's own weakness or fear of being percieved as weak by others. The more anger that a person has toward homosexuals, the more fear they have that that undersirable (to them) quality is w/ in them. I have ALWAYS understood homophobia to be more complex than simply "fear or dislike of homosexuals and/or homosexuality."
Is that controversy important enough to be in the see also section? If we included comments from everyone who makes homophobic remarks we've have a see also section that had hundreds of names on it. The only argument that supports keeping it is that Hardaway self-identified as "homophobic" but even that is not a strong reason to include him here. JoshuaZ 04:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
A phobia had always meant, and has never meant anything other than, "an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation."~Merriam-Webster. In every case of a "phobia," irrationality is at its base. To remove that element is to disqualify it as a phobia in and of itself.
If this Free Encyclopedia is to retain its respectability and reputation, it's important to avoid and guard against "political agenda" in providing what is supposed to be useful, truthful, and factual information.
Please note the entry under the subheading Coinage. The gentleman who coined the term in the early 1970's defined it in 2002 as "just that: a phobia. A morbid and irrational dread which prompts irrational behavior flight or the desire to destroy the stimulus for the phobia and anything reminiscent of it." (see George Weinberg: Love is Conspiratorial, Deviant & Magical - http://www.pflagdetroit.org/george_weinberg.htm)
The proponents for homosexuality and the rights thereof have stripped what they need from the definition in order to broaden the scope of its usage. Doing so has served the express purpose of enabling them to apply the term - with all possible negative stigma - to anyone who disagrees with them or opposes their efforts.
My correction was not political, but accurate. Homophobia, like any phobia, requires that element of irrationality to be part of its definition. To not include it, is to allow the actual definition to become distorted and twisted. If Wikipedia is meant to be merely a Liberal or Secular-Progressive sounding board (as I genuinely hope is not the case), then, by all means, leave it be. However, my corrections are wholly accurate, clear, and undistorted.
Merriam-Webster (an unquestioned authority) defines homophobia as an "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals." Following proper grammar usage, "irrational" applies to all three elements of the definition. Note the pattern of NOUN-PREPOSITION usage. "Irrational" stands alone as the adjective. If it were to be solely applied to the word "fear," they would have worded it as "aversion to, discrimination of, or irrational fear of homosexuality or homosexuals" - or some similar variation in the interest of clarity.
The Oxford English Dictionary defines it as "an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexuals."
Encarta defines it as "irrational hatred of homosexuality: an irrational hatred, disapproval, or fear of homosexuality, gay and lesbian people, or their culture."
I'm quite sure that if you were to consult the Cambridge Dictionary of the English Language, you will find it to include "irrational," as well.
Over the last several months, I have grown to respect this site as a useful and respectable wealth of information. This issue is causing that stance to come into question. At least you have had the wisdom to note the dispute of this definition, at the top of the page.
In the interest of accuracy, politics notwithstanding, I urge you make the correction.
In addition, note my alteration of the following portion:
"It can also mean hatred, hostility, or disapproval of homosexual people, sexual behavior, or cultures, and is generally used to insinuate bigotry.[2] The term homophobic means "prejudiced against homosexual people,"[3] and a person who is homophobic is a homophobe."
My alteration is as follows: [MY CHANGES ARE IN PARENTHESES]
(Proponents for the acceptance of homosexuality have redefined the term to mean any) hatred, hostility, or disapproval of homosexual people, sexual behavior, or cultures, (in order to broaden the scope of its usage, regardless of any rational, objective, or thoughtful objection,) and is generally used to insinuate bigotry.[2] The term homophobic (is only defined as) "prejudiced against homosexual people," (in dictionaries of greatly abbreviated format)[3] and a person who is homophobic is a homophobe.
The changes I have made are in fact truthful. Those who serve as proponents for the acceptance of homosexuality are in fact responsible for this ambiguity in the definition. Please note the source which is sited - www.thefreedictionary.com. This site is more like an online "pocket" dictionary than anything else. It is not an authoritative or established source.
The disclaimer at the bottom of the web site's home page affirms this fact:
"All content on this website, including dictionary, thesaurus, literature, geography, and other reference data is for informational purposes only. This information should not be considered complete, up to date, and is not intended to be used in place of a visit, consultation, or advice of a legal, medical, or any other professional."
Please note the part which clearly states that "This information should not be considered complete..."
From Merriam-Webster's own site: "The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary is based on the print version of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate® Dictionary, Eleventh Edition."
Oxford's online dictionary (www.askoxford.com/dictionaries/), which is the "Compact" edition, retains the fundamental elements of the definition, a well.
I'm writing you neither as a proponent for nor an opponent of the acceptance of homosexuality, homosexuals, or their rights. I am merely concerned with the accuracy of the definition as presented. I am taking the time to address this issue, not for the benefit of any personal political agenda, but rather for the maintenance and safeguarding of Wikipedia's reputation and effort towards accuracy, and with the site's best interests at heart.
I only hope my efforts here do not prove to be in vain.
Be informed that the only reason I discovered this error was due to its having been quoted in a MySpace blog which I happened to have been reading.
The definitions which I referenced can be found by following these links:
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/homophobia http://www.askoxford.com/results/?view=dev_dict&field-12668446=homophobia&branch=13842570&textsearchtype=exact&sortorder=score%2Cname http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/homophobia.html
Cambridge's online dictionary is accessible by subscription only.
Best Regards-- HngKngPhooey 08:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
After having read the information above, as well as, information regarding qualified submissions, I feel compelled to note that my statement that the definition of the word "homophobia" has been stripped of its inclusion of the term "irrational" by those who merely wish to broaden its scope, may be considered unqualified as OPINION/BIAS or Original Research.
Allow me please to now address these issues.
Personal Bias/Opinion and Original Research: My rephrasing of this section of the presented definition does not come from a biased or opinionated position. However, it may be considered "Original Research."
Conscientious objectors recognize the irrationality of actual "homophobia," which is why they object to being labeled with such a term. They are fully aware of the stigma of fear and irrationality that the term implies, and know that it is the very basis for which their opinions and arguments are systematically disregarded out-of-hand. Those who use this term to describe them are aware of this stigma, as well. It's the reason they use it.
In every, and I mean every, instance where this term is been applied to an individual, that person's opinion is, without exception, disregarded and they are dismissed as unqualified or incapable of posing any argument worth considering. Under these circumstances, this term is always said with an unmistakable tone of contempt, condescension, and/or dismissal. "You're just a homophobe" is the most common. The use of the word "just" is notable.
In American English usage, any statement which begins "You're just a..." is meant to insinuate contempt for the person to which to statement is directed, a projected negativity based on the term following that opening, the rejection of that person as an equal or adequate participant in debate, discussion, or activity, or a combination of these elements. It is even used in the reverse by those who wish to exempt themselves from consideration or responsibility for any number of issues. In many cases these statements are followed by some brief statement or question in support of the charge being made.
Examples:
Note the increased negativity or contempt communicated based on the brevity of a supporting statement and how the more negative, severe, or contemptuous the charge, there is generally an absence of any supporting statement or question.
A few examples in the reverse:
As a result, it is my humble suggestion that the ambiguous, unclear and misleading portion of the posted definition should be eliminated in its entirety. The following is a more concise, clear, and strictly qualifying definition:
Homophobia is the irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals.[1] This condition can manifest itself in the form of hatred, hostility, or disapproval of homosexual people, sexual behavior, or cultures. The word homophobic is the adjective form of this word. And, a person who is homophobic is a homophobe. Both terms are generally used to insinuate bigotry.[2]
The word homophobic, when used to label someone as prejudiced against homosexual people, can be a pejorative term, and the identification of a group or person as homophobic is nearly always contested.
Modified References 1. Merriam-Webster (embedded link: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/homophobia) 2. Merriam-Webster's Dictionary 2006 and 11th Collegiate Dictionary, 2005, American Heritage Dictionary. NOTE: Reference 3 should be eliminated, and the list numbering updated to reflect the change.
Again, allow me to stress the importance of granting the coiner of the term due respect by refraining from adulterating the definition of the very word he coined.
As for the person above who thinks that "Homophobia isn't really a phobia," I say the following: Coin a different term for it which does not contain the root word "-phobia." Quit trying to redefine terms to suit your personal opinion or agenda.
As for the response from Britcom, who made the point that Wikipedia is not a dictionary, my response is this: You are right. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. However, when someone submits a page regarding a "term," it is (from all indication) customary to begin the page with the "definition" of the term followed by further information regarding that term. In almost every instance where a page addressing a "term" has been included in this encyclopedia, it begins with a definition of that term.
My issues with this page are and have been solely with the citing of the definition itself. I have in no way asserted a dispute regarding the information cited thereafter.
Say what you will about the term homophobia throughout the remainder of the topic page. However, when citing a definition, it should be as accurate and as clear as possible, as well as, devoid of political perspective or opinion. To allow it to stand as it is, would be to neglect some of the most basic principles which govern this site (yes, I read them).
Best Regards to All -- HngKngPhooey 19:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Note: Actually it was CaveatLector who stated: "Wikipedia is not a dictionary".-- Britcom 20:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
From the definition in the article, two of the dictionary definitions cited include the key point that homophobia is irrational and unreasonable. Leaving this information out is tantamount to dishonesty. Please keep these key parts of the definitions in the article text or do not cite the dictionary definitions. Jinxmchue 18:08, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
The first reference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homophobia Has four definitions. Go look again. Two support the irrational idea, which I am not arguing, but two, simply do not. If unreasoning and irrational are synonymous then why did you put both into the same sentence after the other in one of your edits?
"Homophobia is the unreasoning or irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals."
None of the FOUR definitions on the citation page say 'unreasoning or irrational.' They are either synonymous or their not. Choose.
The second reference a definition from Mirriam-Webster is already included in the first citation and is unnecessarily repetitious, even on the main page. It doesn't reinforce the argument/view to repeat the same information as different citations.
Please assume good faith. I am not picking and choosing to support a POV, so don't speak to my mind. I personally do believe homophobia is irrational but wikipedia is not here to reflect my POV. Don't make assumptions about other people, who may in fact only be trying to serve the greater good, just because they don't agree with your edits.-- ParAmmon ( cheers thanks a lot!) 17:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
(Reset to margin)
Rbj, you have gone from discussing the issues to discussing the editors--and in some fairly negative terms. Is that truly the course you wish to pursue? Justin Eiler 02:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Let us keep in mind here what I think is an excellent observation that
HngKngPhooey made above:
Quote: Merriam-Webster (an unquestioned authority) defines homophobia as an "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals." Following proper grammar usage, "irrational" applies to all three elements of the definition. Note the pattern of NOUN-PREPOSITION usage. "Irrational" stands alone as the adjective.
In other words, s/he is saying above that the MW definition should be understood to mean that Homophobia is: an irrational fear of, or an irrational aversion to, or irrational discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals. I think some may have missed that point. I agree that MW is saying that ALL THREE are qualified by the word "irrational". Also in other words, MW seems to imply that a rational or reasoned fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals is NOT defined as Homophobia, leading us to the conclusion that there must be another term for such reasonable senses. If that is what the definition means, then the article should not be written in a way that conflicts with that meaning, to do so would be misleading. -- Britcom 06:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
i came across this article through a redirect from "anti-homosexualism" clearly HomoPhobia and Anti-Homosexualism are not the same thing i am morally against homosexuality, but am so on reasonable and rational grounds. moral/logical disapproval does not classify as a phobia, which is an irrational fear.
a neutral article on anti-homosexualism would be a good addition to wikipedia,
as all most all articles in the LBGT category present a one-sided and distorted view
leaving no room for those who disapprove homosexuality and have something to add —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
84.53.88.129 (
talk) 13:38, 28 February 2007 (UTC).
(reset indent)
Questions of rationality and irrationality aside, the term "homophobia" is widely used and deserves an entry on Wikipedia. The usage of the term should be, and is, based on the term's uses in reliable sources. The article also, rightly, contains discussion of notable criticism of the term. Whether "anti-homosexualism" deserves a Wikipedia page, and whether it is distinct from homophobia (as described by reliable sources) are irrelevant: the widespread term is "homophobia". If you wish to change English usage, try somewhere other than Wikipedia. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 16:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
It should not be called "Homophobia". Most "Straight" people don't fear homosexuals. It can be more appropriately viewed as "Homonausea". -- Buffer599 23:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
(reset to left)
For the sake of clearing up confusion lets examine what I said (keeping in mind that, for brevity here I often don't expound on all of the facts and research that I have access to unless pressed for it. # 1. There is plenty of evidence that Left-handedness runs in families, at least much of the time, granted, the studies cannot prove this in every case. Left-handedness is more of a tool of conduct rather than a conduct itself. It resides entirely within the person's body, between mind and hand. #2. Sodomy has many definitions both legal and non-legal, when I use the term here I refer exclusively to male/male anal copulation. #3. By "public display", I was referring to so called "Gay Pride" events such as parades, not kissing, same sex people kiss each other in many cultures. #4. Recruitment is used in the above in the same way that Evangelical Christians "recruit" new members to their churches and it includes the recruitment of "straight" people to work for LGBT special rights and the LGBT political agenda. #5 "dressing in drag" is often seen in lesbians (i.e. male-drag) and is also seen in many "Gay Pride" events. #6 this whole "cult" conversation took place merely because I said that "some people" have shown evidence that supports one "hypothesis" that LGBT may be a cult ritual. There are also those who think Homosexuality is an addictive vice similar to gambling or drug use. There are also those who think homosexuality is a psychological disorder or psychiatric disorder possibly caused by child abuse or drug use. There are many hypotheses about it. You can accept or reject any or all of them at your pleasure. #7. None of this information should lead you assume what my position is on the subject matter of this article though, I have been known to play devils advocate or split hairs to foster a more useful debate on a word or definition. I am here to correct what I see as popular misnomers about the definitions of words and slang usages. -- Britcom 17:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
(reset to left)
I have read the above and I concur with the detailed coverage of the opposition to the different usages, but at the end, the site ignores all of the opposition and defines Homophobia as "discrimination" rather than "fear" or "dread". I don't think Homophobia is rightly defined as any form of discrimination (regardless of "sources" to the contrary, I have read the sources and I find most of them contradictory and vague in choosing a definition). Discrimination is an overt act, not a disorder or anxiety of the mind. "Sexism" or "Heterosexism" are perhaps better suited for this sense. I also do not think "opposition" (religious, traditional, cultural, intellectual, etc.) to the homosexual political agenda (special rights, special protections, gay-marriage, etc.) is rightly defined as Homophobia. (notice I said opposition to an agenda, not homosexual people.) I also do no think that opposition to the practice of sodomy should be defined as a form of Homophobia. To do so is expressing a non-neutral political agenda. The Homophobia article should restrict itself to the senses of psychological fear or dread of homosexuals, and the fear of being or becoming a homosexual. The other senses are neologistic and belong elsewhere. -- Britcom 02:26, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Forgive me if I do not do this correctly, as I am new to the editing of these pages. However, while I understand what the critics of the definition are concerned with, I think they miss the point that "homophobia" is a term that has meaning based on common usage and etymology. As a result of these mixed influences, the most accurate definition does not necessarily mean that it is a fair one. That being said, regardless of how fair or just the definition is, I think it is largely accurate.
According to Wikipedia's own listing for "phobias", "homophobia" is listed as a "non-clinical use of the term", therefore to belabour the clinical definition of phobia in this context is not relevant. We may not like the use of a clinical term in a non-clinical context, but that is the reality of this word, therefore the definition is not as inaccurate as is suggested. Further it is consistent with Wiktionary's definition of "homophobia" (though it uses the term "antipathy", the meaning can be read similarly). Perhaps the Wiktionary definition (with the accompanying definition for "antipathy") would be better, but not necessary in my opinion. Jamiearpinricci 16 April 2007
I notice that aside from a few passing references in the "popular culture" section, this article is largely written from a US/UK perspective. While there's no need to duplicate the content of Societal attitudes towards homosexuality, I'm sure that the subject of homophobia has been discussed in non-English-speaking countries, and that scholars have considered homophobia in different cultures worldwide. It would be good if the article reflected this. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 18:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
There is homophobia in every community. White, black, brown, blue, green. I don't see how the black community is more homophobic. So I removed the section. -- Revolución hablar ver 17:40, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I re-added the Westboro Baptist Church image, which had been removed by Techron and replaced with a photo of a student protest. I left the latter photo (and cleaned it up a bit). The WBC photo is an excellent example of homophobia, and deserves to be in the article and highly placed. The ISR photo, by contrast, shows a mostly non-notable student group protesting, which is a couple steps removed from an actual illustration of homophobia. Please discuss here if you have a reason to remove the WBC photo. thanks. bikeable (talk) 16:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
(reset to left; it's getting cramped over here.) Britcom, the ADL page does give of evidence of homophobic behavior (e.g., ...WBC has picketed the gay community at hundreds of events nationwide). This is in no way libelous. Again, we are reporting what the ADL says, not auditing their work. I would ask what evidence would satisfy you of the WBC's homophobia, but from your history here I don't believe that you think that homophobia exists (unless Phelps declares himself to have a "fear", perhaps), and so I don't think this can be resolved to your satisfaction. I would also ask you to avoid wikilawyering. bikeable (talk) 14:52, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Prof. Jonathan I. Katz of Washington University in St. Louis has written an essay on Homophobia which may provide some additional material for this article. Academics have often implied that those who make up their ranks universally agree that homophobia and discrimination against homosexuals is wrong. In his essay, Prof. Katz takes the opposite view. The essay can be found here: [2] -- Britcom 20:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The OED gives the cited Time article as the first of its quotations. Does that mean it was the first time the word appeared in print? I don't know if that's necessarily the same thing. I don't know exactly how the OED chooses quotes; the word may have appeared elsewhere (presumably less mainstream?) earlier. Perhaps we should be clear and say, the first citation by the OED was in.... bikeable (talk) 20:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The OED comits a lot of resources to try and identify the first use of a word. It is possible, but very unlikley that it has been used in print before the Time article. The OED also use the UK and North American Reading Programmes to collect millions of quotations from all over the English-speaking world, and use them as the principal sources of evidence for words used in current English. Recently the OED (full version) has seperated the two uses of homophobia and the current entry simply states 'Fear or hatred of homosexuals and homosexuality' The term homophobic is citied as first appearing in 1971 in a Psychologist report and is defined as 'Pertaining to, characterized by, or exhibiting homophobia; hostile towards homosexuals. Also occas. as n., a person who displays homophobia.'rgds, ||:) johnmark† 16:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, I'm pleased to see this page has improved considerably since I last visited it (no longer 'locked' (which is sometimes necessary on wikipedia, but awfully unfortunate) and with a lot of detail about the etymological problems and criticisms.
Anyway, I changed the definition to Merriam Webster's 'irrational fear or predjudice, etc.' for two reasons; After checking www.dictionary.com, every definition mentioned fear (even the definition formerly used here, in it's uncut form on dictionary.com, uses the word fear) It might also be worth including that quote (from the discussion page) by the fellow who invented the word 'homophobia' (if it isn't already in the article.) Also, I included an "in-text" citation ("Merriam Webster's says") because the statement "Homophobia is" sounds a presumptuous and will immediately prompt curiousity about the sources, etc. (It's great to consign odd details and sources to footnotes when the majority of people aren't going to care about them and the minority can take a few extra seconds to click the links. But, when someone says "Homophobia is," I think a large enough number of people are immediately going to want to know what he's basing that on, to justify an "in text" citation.
Personal rant, now. You needn't read. My own problem with the word 'homophobia' is the inaccuracy of it. I read a movie review which mentions some character who disapproves of homosexuality being 'homophobic' and I immediately wonder if I missed some line of dialogue revealing he was secretly gay. Now, wether people believe in the Bible or not, the argument "Homosexual acts are wrong because the Bible says it is wrong" offers plenty of explanation for why most 'homophobes' don't approve of the activity. Heck, why not create a word called "Shabbathophobic" to describe people with a 'fear' of doing work on the Shabbath. Now, you may or may not agree with the need to refrain from work on the shabath, but you hardly need to explain a Christian (or, more commonly in this case, a Jew) holding a 'shabbathophobic' view in terms of 'fear' Also, something which occured to me about the etymology (although, this sort of thing seems to be much more strongly addressed now) most perjorative words like "racist" don't actually have anything etymologically negative about them. The 'perjorative' aspect is purely through association and the general consensus that racism is bad. When, age 15, I first heard the word 'homophobia' however (in some television 'Public Service' type commercials,) I immediately thought of double-speak from the book (1984) I had just read (in terms of manipulating the public perception through language, I was actually somewhat impressed by the cleverness and/or audaciousness of it.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.164.5.98 ( talk) 18:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC).
Items #1 and #2 on the Reference List are a bit mixed up.
"irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals." ~Merriam-Webster Online
Someone please make the correction.
Also, I'm not too sure the statement, "It can also mean hatred, hostility, or disapproval of homosexual people, sexual behavior, or cultures," is acceptable as a definition.
There are two reasons for this.
One, I am acquainted with a Senior Editor of the American Heritage Dictionary for Houghton Mifflin Company. He informs me that the definition presented in the current printed and online editions of AHD, are sorely inadequate. He has assured me that they will be updated with a more accurate definition. It will read more like Merrian Webster's definition. He informed me that the next printed edition will not be released for some time. However, the online edition of AHD will be updated much, much sooner.
Two, to say that, "It can also mean...." seems more like another attempt to manufacture ligitimacy for the asertions of those who wish to alter it's definition for their own personal political agenda. It doesn't also mean anything. It means what it means, and that's it! Rational disagreement in no way qualifies as an element in ANY phobia. Phobias are by their very nature irrational. Whether that irrationality manifests itself through fear, aversion, or discrimination of, to, or against something or someone, a phobia's irrationality is at the heart of the condition in EVERY instance. Certain people wish to redefine terms to their own liking and usefulness. In order to be able to use a word as a weapon against those who simply disagree, they must adulterate the meaning so that it includes their target. This is reprehensible behavior which should not be tolerated.
The Amish disapprove of electricity. It's a reflection of their adherence to simplicity in life. This is a notion rooted in their spiritual beliefs.
If the disapproval of or aversion to homosexuals or homosexuality is homophobia, then you'd have to say the Amish are "electophobes" for rejecting or disapproving of electicity and it's uses. To do so, of course, is absurd and ridiculous. You'd really have to be some sort of nutcase to think that that made sense. Unfortunately, these are the nutcases we may be dealing with here - and for the same reasons. -- HngKngPhooey 22:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Technically, those who say that the original, literal definition of homophobia is uniquely about fear are correct. They have, however, the misfortune of making this argument in English, and so face issues like trying to explain why sinople's definitions include both green and red, why flammable and inflammable are synonymous, and especially why hemophilia isn't remotely like necrophilia, coprophilia, or zoophilia, despite the use of the same root word. I strongly recommend people visit the etymology and historical linguistics pages for further detail: [3] and [4]
To put it mildly, English words don't just mean their literal, original definitions. Their histories are far beyond this, which is what we see at work with the word "homophobia" -- thugs aren't cultists from India, and calling a black man a Negro, while at one point the socially preferred term, is now considered a racial slur. "Homophobia" is very much alike to these other terms: yes, the literal origin of "phobia" is solely based in fear, but it has not been so defined in some time, allowing for definitions like "aversion" or "hatred" instead.
If people want to clarify that homophobia is a non-clinical term, by all means do so -- the entry on the word "phobia" makes this clear here: [5]. If you wish to argue that opposition to homosexuality does not necessarily include hatred or fear of homosexuals, go right ahead. Arguing the definition of the word, however, is a losing battle. English's evolution isn't consistent enough to justify that. San Diablo 01:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |