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Part of the content of the "History of Punic-era Tunisia: chronology" article was merged into History of Carthage on 10 April 2016. That page and its contribution history for attribution purposes is now located here. |
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"...it is most likely that the city was founded sometime between 846 and 813 BC." How do we know that? Apparently, every historian relatively close to the event agrees(agreed) that Carthage was founded sometime between 1234-1215 BC, but every modern historian says otherwise. Curiouser and curiouser... -- LutherVinci ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:03, 15 May 2011 (UTC).
Concerns have been raised regarding the existence of History of Punic-era Tunisia: chronology and its sister article History of Punic-era Tunisia: culture. There is a discussion at Talk:Ancient_Carthage#clearly_some_bad_editorial_choices_have_been_made. There was a prior merge suggestion, which was rejected by the article creator. The articles duplicate the topic at History of Carthage, but read as essays. Sentences such as "Lack of contemporary written records make the drawing of conclusions here uncertain, which can only be based on inference and reasonable conjecture about matters of social nuance" indicate a POV - for who is speaking here? Who is wishing to draw conclusions and make conjectures? There is the suggestion of the stance of the author in the opening sentence of the chronology article which indicates that it "introduces the region during its long period ... under the sway of a Semitic civilization from the eastern Mediterranean". It appears the author wishes to discuss not the history of Carthage, but the occupation of Tunisia by a Semite people. It appears to wish to emphasise the Berber people, and place them more firmly in the picture. Looking at the comments on Talk:History_of_Punic-era_Tunisia:_chronology by the article's creator, this is borne out by what he says there. So this article is both a WP:REDUNDANTFORK as it duplicates History of Carthage and a WP:POVFORK as its intention is to present the same information "from different contexts". We don't do several articles with different views on Wikipedia; per WP:NPOV we present all significant views in the one article, and we give each view appropriate coverage per WP:WEIGHT. Taking an entire article to give the fringe perspective of the indigenous people of Tunisia to Carthage is a little excessive, though some of the material could be summarised and used appropriately in History of Carthage and perhaps in Carthage as well. SilkTork ✔Tea time 18:42, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
1. POV evidently rests on this criteria: articles to be based on published sources, in a presentation that is "fair and balanced". This may solve well over half the cases involved. Yet, beyond that, difficulty is readily apparent. Some published sources, many will agree, are superior to others. Who decides which is which, or how to weigh the consequent result? So, beyond the many elementary cases and issues, the POV rules are problematic. They present an admirable theory of cultural values. They fall short, however, in giving criteria to resolve disputes among opposing parties who each submit articles totally based on published sources. As an aside, thank you for the AskHistorians link.
2. Here, there is a different order of fundamental disagreement. It regards which topics to include in which article.
If one considers the region as it passes through time, and a given article being concerned with one such period of time, then perhaps all the people living there then should be included. But if one considers the goal to be 'A History of Carthage' clearly Carthaginians should be privileged over other people. This appears to be the position of SilkTork and others. Accordingly, if Berbers are to be principals in any article, it should be a Berber article. But this is but a deduction from a premise, a premise which reflects a tradition, deriving from an ancient Rome-centric, ancient Levant-centric stance about Carthage. Nonetheless, a defensible premise.
The multiple outlooks among current North Africans might include different stances about how to treat the conquered people and the people of the hinterlands of Carthage. Forming a large share of the population, constituting a latent force in the polity, should they nonetheless be passed over with scant mention? Surely, the Punic-era articles also praised the Phoenician accomplishments.
The region now called Tunisia, after Carthage, saw the emergence of Massinissa and Juba II. The Carthaginians eventually disappear. When Rome fell, Berber kingdoms again arose. Several centuries after the Arab arrival, Islamic Berber states held sway. So, in reading a continuous history of the region, a 21st century modern might want to include the substantial and continuous presence of the native people during the Punic-era, no matter that there were sharp social distinctions and separate ways of life. Au contraire, there are the inherited traditions. So I vote for the status quo, allowing each a place.
Probably I've done no better than SilkTork has done in persuading me of his position.
Of course, I wish the best to all participants, that the article, and articles, turn out well. Wikipedia does further human understanding, the usual way, two steps forward, one back. . Elfelix ( talk) 00:33, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
History of Carthage article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Part of the content of the "History of Punic-era Tunisia: chronology" article was merged into History of Carthage on 10 April 2016. That page and its contribution history for attribution purposes is now located here. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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"...it is most likely that the city was founded sometime between 846 and 813 BC." How do we know that? Apparently, every historian relatively close to the event agrees(agreed) that Carthage was founded sometime between 1234-1215 BC, but every modern historian says otherwise. Curiouser and curiouser... -- LutherVinci ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:03, 15 May 2011 (UTC).
Concerns have been raised regarding the existence of History of Punic-era Tunisia: chronology and its sister article History of Punic-era Tunisia: culture. There is a discussion at Talk:Ancient_Carthage#clearly_some_bad_editorial_choices_have_been_made. There was a prior merge suggestion, which was rejected by the article creator. The articles duplicate the topic at History of Carthage, but read as essays. Sentences such as "Lack of contemporary written records make the drawing of conclusions here uncertain, which can only be based on inference and reasonable conjecture about matters of social nuance" indicate a POV - for who is speaking here? Who is wishing to draw conclusions and make conjectures? There is the suggestion of the stance of the author in the opening sentence of the chronology article which indicates that it "introduces the region during its long period ... under the sway of a Semitic civilization from the eastern Mediterranean". It appears the author wishes to discuss not the history of Carthage, but the occupation of Tunisia by a Semite people. It appears to wish to emphasise the Berber people, and place them more firmly in the picture. Looking at the comments on Talk:History_of_Punic-era_Tunisia:_chronology by the article's creator, this is borne out by what he says there. So this article is both a WP:REDUNDANTFORK as it duplicates History of Carthage and a WP:POVFORK as its intention is to present the same information "from different contexts". We don't do several articles with different views on Wikipedia; per WP:NPOV we present all significant views in the one article, and we give each view appropriate coverage per WP:WEIGHT. Taking an entire article to give the fringe perspective of the indigenous people of Tunisia to Carthage is a little excessive, though some of the material could be summarised and used appropriately in History of Carthage and perhaps in Carthage as well. SilkTork ✔Tea time 18:42, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
1. POV evidently rests on this criteria: articles to be based on published sources, in a presentation that is "fair and balanced". This may solve well over half the cases involved. Yet, beyond that, difficulty is readily apparent. Some published sources, many will agree, are superior to others. Who decides which is which, or how to weigh the consequent result? So, beyond the many elementary cases and issues, the POV rules are problematic. They present an admirable theory of cultural values. They fall short, however, in giving criteria to resolve disputes among opposing parties who each submit articles totally based on published sources. As an aside, thank you for the AskHistorians link.
2. Here, there is a different order of fundamental disagreement. It regards which topics to include in which article.
If one considers the region as it passes through time, and a given article being concerned with one such period of time, then perhaps all the people living there then should be included. But if one considers the goal to be 'A History of Carthage' clearly Carthaginians should be privileged over other people. This appears to be the position of SilkTork and others. Accordingly, if Berbers are to be principals in any article, it should be a Berber article. But this is but a deduction from a premise, a premise which reflects a tradition, deriving from an ancient Rome-centric, ancient Levant-centric stance about Carthage. Nonetheless, a defensible premise.
The multiple outlooks among current North Africans might include different stances about how to treat the conquered people and the people of the hinterlands of Carthage. Forming a large share of the population, constituting a latent force in the polity, should they nonetheless be passed over with scant mention? Surely, the Punic-era articles also praised the Phoenician accomplishments.
The region now called Tunisia, after Carthage, saw the emergence of Massinissa and Juba II. The Carthaginians eventually disappear. When Rome fell, Berber kingdoms again arose. Several centuries after the Arab arrival, Islamic Berber states held sway. So, in reading a continuous history of the region, a 21st century modern might want to include the substantial and continuous presence of the native people during the Punic-era, no matter that there were sharp social distinctions and separate ways of life. Au contraire, there are the inherited traditions. So I vote for the status quo, allowing each a place.
Probably I've done no better than SilkTork has done in persuading me of his position.
Of course, I wish the best to all participants, that the article, and articles, turn out well. Wikipedia does further human understanding, the usual way, two steps forward, one back. . Elfelix ( talk) 00:33, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on History of Carthage. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:50, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 07:44, 30 June 2021 (UTC)