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I was invited to restore balance to this discussion (see talk page at Bob Jones University). While I think this new entry is valuable, well cited and well written by User:Eustress (kudos!), I think that the title of the article is erroneous and must be changed. This article deals with issues and controversies, not history in the plain Wikipedia sense of the term. Of course I recognize that the issues are historical, as is anything in the past, but standard Wikipedia users seeing this title would not be looking predominantly for Religious Issues, Race Relations, and Political Involvement (the only three sections currently). This is not my subjective opinion. I just search within Wikipedia for "History University" and many articles appear on the History of many academic institutions and just the first 5 I searched all had a chronological history (things like Beginnings, foundations, formal establishment, further growth, the 19th century, establishment of new colleges and schools, succession of presidents and deans, etc.). Therefore I believe this page must be retitled to something like "History of Bob Jones University Controversies". Alternatively, and perhaps better, you could add standard BJU history to this article based on precedents I just mentioned, but even then, to make sense the new material should be equal or greater in content than the current material on controversies, and place the current material as subpoints under a section called "History of Controversies". In general, the history of controversy, even when well documented, is fraught with problems of subjectivity and debate and viewpoints. But the year of founding, registration, student enrollment, addition of majors and schools, names of presidents and deans, etc., is more encyclopedic, and of course that is what Wikipedia is designed for. Bob Jones University is at the center of much controversy, but this article title is not the appropriate place in my opinion.-- Llama36 ( talk) 21:14, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: page not moved. Rider ranger47 Talk 20:45, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 | It was proposed in this section that
History of Bob Jones University be
renamed and moved to
Bob Jones University Controversies.
The discussion has been closed, and the result will be found in the closer's comment. Links:
current log •
target log |
History of Bob Jones University → Bob Jones University controversies – This page is not a standard history page according to precedent for other university history pages. It is merely a list of controversies and is erroneously titled per guidelines at WP:NC. Rereward ( talk) 02:29, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
- Can someone explain why it is inappropriate to include this material in the main article,
Bob Jones University?--
John Foxe (
talk) 12:43, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
- I agree that there is no need for this page and it should be marked for deletion. Rereward is right in that it certainly cannot be maintained under the title "History of ...", but I agree with that this is extraneous and should be part of the main Bob Jones University page. It doesn't warrant a new page.-- Llama36 ( talk) 13:40, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose – There's a lot of history here, and not all about controversies. The page should be edited to be more balanced, somewhat less weight on controversies, more neutral POV, while this title change would seem to go the other way. Dicklyon ( talk) 19:18, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
- Why not simply integrate the material back into the main article as
Llama36 has suggested?--
John Foxe (
talk) 20:19, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
- The question is not whether there is history here, Dicklyon, certainly I agree there is. But that is not the point. The point is that this page is not a proper "History of ..." page. Check other precedents on Wikipedia. If someone wants to read about the history of America and finds an article containing histories of a particular author's chosen controversies, but not the general points of history that would be common to any encyclopedia, it would be marked for immediate deletion. There are scores of "History of X University" pages that have a simple, natural outline of their histories. The items Eustress chose to include, though well-written, are not reflecting a neutral POV in their very choice, else the article would have included a proper history. This page contains history, yes, but it is a history of controversy, not a history of the university. If it is not significantly improved I will recommend it be marked for deletion and the content moved, like John Foxe suggests, to the main Bob Jones University page.-- Llama36 ( talk) 15:47, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
- Why not simply integrate the material back into the main article as
Llama36 has suggested?--
John Foxe (
talk) 20:19, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
I've read up on the discussion at Talk:Bob Jones University and the past request for a name change, and can't see why this article hasn't been requested for a merge back onto the mother Bob Jones University page in the past several months outside of forgetfulness. I put up this request because of how extremely misleading the title of the article is, as has been mentioned before; I wanted specific details about the university's founding and several innovations made to the campus throughout the following decades, and instead was presented with something unrelated that appears copy+pasted with minimal changes from the main article. The only argument I have read against putting this back onto the page is that it consumed unnecessary space there.
If length is still considered an issue, I would recommend putting this material back onto the university's page and having a discussion there about trimming some of these controversies off; while they're all written in a proper format, and I could personally care less about raising or diminishing the institution's esteem to the media, I don't think Wikipedia is a place to be putting all of these.
Evidently, few people feel the motivation to completely revamp this article into the format of a university history, so leaving it as is seems out of the question.
Thank you for your consideration, even if this proposal only accomplishes returning editors' attention to the "wiki's most unusual article." Sorry that I am very new to this process. Kaschimmel ( talk) 16:10, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
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- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130517184003/http://www.nytimes.com/learning/students/pop/articles/022800wh-gop-bush.html to http://www.nytimes.com/learning/students/pop/articles/022800wh-gop-bush.html
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20041213143936/http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/conventions/republican/features/turning.points/ to http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/conventions/republican/features/turning.points/
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Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on History of Bob Jones University. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121020142718/http://www.bju.edu/communities/ministries-schools/position-statements/translation.php to http://www.bju.edu/communities/ministries-schools/position-statements/translation.php
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081010115803/http://www.beliefnet.com/story/15/story_1544_1.html to http://www.beliefnet.com/story/15/story_1544_1.html
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150208123855/http://netgrace.org/wp-content/uploads/Final-Report.pdf to http://netgrace.org/wp-content/uploads/Final-Report.pdf
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121023091117/http://www.bju.edu/communities/ministries-schools/position-statements/race-statement.php to http://www.bju.edu/communities/ministries-schools/position-statements/race-statement.php
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I was invited to restore balance to this discussion (see talk page at Bob Jones University). While I think this new entry is valuable, well cited and well written by User:Eustress (kudos!), I think that the title of the article is erroneous and must be changed. This article deals with issues and controversies, not history in the plain Wikipedia sense of the term. Of course I recognize that the issues are historical, as is anything in the past, but standard Wikipedia users seeing this title would not be looking predominantly for Religious Issues, Race Relations, and Political Involvement (the only three sections currently). This is not my subjective opinion. I just search within Wikipedia for "History University" and many articles appear on the History of many academic institutions and just the first 5 I searched all had a chronological history (things like Beginnings, foundations, formal establishment, further growth, the 19th century, establishment of new colleges and schools, succession of presidents and deans, etc.). Therefore I believe this page must be retitled to something like "History of Bob Jones University Controversies". Alternatively, and perhaps better, you could add standard BJU history to this article based on precedents I just mentioned, but even then, to make sense the new material should be equal or greater in content than the current material on controversies, and place the current material as subpoints under a section called "History of Controversies". In general, the history of controversy, even when well documented, is fraught with problems of subjectivity and debate and viewpoints. But the year of founding, registration, student enrollment, addition of majors and schools, names of presidents and deans, etc., is more encyclopedic, and of course that is what Wikipedia is designed for. Bob Jones University is at the center of much controversy, but this article title is not the appropriate place in my opinion.-- Llama36 ( talk) 21:14, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: page not moved. Rider ranger47 Talk 20:45, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
| It was proposed in this section that
History of Bob Jones University be
renamed and moved to
Bob Jones University Controversies.
The discussion has been closed, and the result will be found in the closer's comment. Links:
current log •
target log |
History of Bob Jones University → Bob Jones University controversies – This page is not a standard history page according to precedent for other university history pages. It is merely a list of controversies and is erroneously titled per guidelines at WP:NC. Rereward ( talk) 02:29, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
- Can someone explain why it is inappropriate to include this material in the main article,
Bob Jones University?--
John Foxe (
talk) 12:43, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
- I agree that there is no need for this page and it should be marked for deletion. Rereward is right in that it certainly cannot be maintained under the title "History of ...", but I agree with that this is extraneous and should be part of the main Bob Jones University page. It doesn't warrant a new page.-- Llama36 ( talk) 13:40, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose – There's a lot of history here, and not all about controversies. The page should be edited to be more balanced, somewhat less weight on controversies, more neutral POV, while this title change would seem to go the other way. Dicklyon ( talk) 19:18, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
- Why not simply integrate the material back into the main article as
Llama36 has suggested?--
John Foxe (
talk) 20:19, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
- The question is not whether there is history here, Dicklyon, certainly I agree there is. But that is not the point. The point is that this page is not a proper "History of ..." page. Check other precedents on Wikipedia. If someone wants to read about the history of America and finds an article containing histories of a particular author's chosen controversies, but not the general points of history that would be common to any encyclopedia, it would be marked for immediate deletion. There are scores of "History of X University" pages that have a simple, natural outline of their histories. The items Eustress chose to include, though well-written, are not reflecting a neutral POV in their very choice, else the article would have included a proper history. This page contains history, yes, but it is a history of controversy, not a history of the university. If it is not significantly improved I will recommend it be marked for deletion and the content moved, like John Foxe suggests, to the main Bob Jones University page.-- Llama36 ( talk) 15:47, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
- Why not simply integrate the material back into the main article as
Llama36 has suggested?--
John Foxe (
talk) 20:19, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
I've read up on the discussion at Talk:Bob Jones University and the past request for a name change, and can't see why this article hasn't been requested for a merge back onto the mother Bob Jones University page in the past several months outside of forgetfulness. I put up this request because of how extremely misleading the title of the article is, as has been mentioned before; I wanted specific details about the university's founding and several innovations made to the campus throughout the following decades, and instead was presented with something unrelated that appears copy+pasted with minimal changes from the main article. The only argument I have read against putting this back onto the page is that it consumed unnecessary space there.
If length is still considered an issue, I would recommend putting this material back onto the university's page and having a discussion there about trimming some of these controversies off; while they're all written in a proper format, and I could personally care less about raising or diminishing the institution's esteem to the media, I don't think Wikipedia is a place to be putting all of these.
Evidently, few people feel the motivation to completely revamp this article into the format of a university history, so leaving it as is seems out of the question.
Thank you for your consideration, even if this proposal only accomplishes returning editors' attention to the "wiki's most unusual article." Sorry that I am very new to this process. Kaschimmel ( talk) 16:10, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 3 external links on
History of Bob Jones University. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
- Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20141216214154/http://www.bju.edu/become-a-student/financial/aid/ to http://www.bju.edu/become-a-student/financial/aid/
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130517184003/http://www.nytimes.com/learning/students/pop/articles/022800wh-gop-bush.html to http://www.nytimes.com/learning/students/pop/articles/022800wh-gop-bush.html
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20041213143936/http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/conventions/republican/features/turning.points/ to http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/conventions/republican/features/turning.points/
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 19:20, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on History of Bob Jones University. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121020142718/http://www.bju.edu/communities/ministries-schools/position-statements/translation.php to http://www.bju.edu/communities/ministries-schools/position-statements/translation.php
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081010115803/http://www.beliefnet.com/story/15/story_1544_1.html to http://www.beliefnet.com/story/15/story_1544_1.html
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150208123855/http://netgrace.org/wp-content/uploads/Final-Report.pdf to http://netgrace.org/wp-content/uploads/Final-Report.pdf
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121023091117/http://www.bju.edu/communities/ministries-schools/position-statements/race-statement.php to http://www.bju.edu/communities/ministries-schools/position-statements/race-statement.php
- Added
{{ dead link}}tag to http://www.greenvilleonline.com/article/20081122/NEWS01/311220002%26referrer%3DFRONTPAGECAROUSEL - Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121023091117/http://www.bju.edu/communities/ministries-schools/position-statements/race-statement.php to http://www.bju.edu/communities/ministries-schools/position-statements/race-statement.php
- Added
{{ dead link}}tag to http://www.greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=%2F20071021%2FNEWS01%2F710210319
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