This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
That picture (the clay model) looks ridiculous, surely there has to be something better. Lostcaesar 00:58, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
That picture (the clay model) looks ridiculous, surely there has to be something better. Lostcaesar 00:58, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I too find the reconstructed skull problematic. Also, the forensic scientist who made it intentionally made it look as "African" as possible (but within the range of features assumed to be present in 1st century Israel). Hence the darker skin and curly black hair. At the other end of the spectrum, light skin and straight brown hair was an equally valid choice for the reconstruction. Annoyingly, the publicists of the project were as deceptive as possible, to imply this actually was Jesus and was exactly what he looked like. Nevertheless, that said: The forensic reconstuction is archeologically important and belongs in this article. The "clay model" is an actual human skull from Israel's Roman Period. Who knows? Perhaps its one of Jesus's distant relatives. The skull should be here as an example of what the ancient Jews looked like. However it should be clearly labeled as a contemporary of Jesus whose genetic features may be suggestive of what Jesus looked like, including the roundess of the skull, dark hair, olive complexion, and so on. I feel strongly that a (clearly labled) picture must be here. Haldrik 03:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Bill Clinton | |
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A photograph of someone from the same time and place of Bill Clinton. No first hand portraits of Clinton exist. |
What about Cultural setting of Jesus, as in "this is a picture of an average 30 year old male from the same cultural setting as Jesus" rather than "this is a picture of what Jesus really looked like according to science" ? Clinkophonist 00:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Can we rename the facial image as well, otherwise we have a situation a bit like :
Clinkophonist 18:39, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Template:Bibleref has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Jon513 19:30, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I deleted some content before because it was duplicate -- Atenea26 21:00 , 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Its a good article but the title is a bit awkward.
It seems to assert that Jesus existed (which Historicity of Jesus claims is disputed rather than universally agreed upon fact), and that its content is a completely factual reconstruction of exactly who Jesus was (c.f. various Christian groups disputing this).
What it does not contain is [[Historical critical analysis of the Bible and early Christian traditions in order to assertain scientifically how much of the Biblical description of Jesus is likely to be true, and a reconstruction of the significant details of Jesus' life based upon this]]
What it actually contains is a Scientific reconstruction of the day to day life of a person of similar cultural background to Jesus living in the same time period and carrying out a similar style of ministry. But that isn't a very good title - its far too long for a start.
I think the article desperately needs renaming, but Im not sure what people think would be more descriptive in regards to its content? Clinkophonist 14:56, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
We shouldn't say in articles that creationism is nonsense, obviously. But our articles about scientific topics like the Big Bang and evolution aren't notably inconvenienced by the objections of young earth creationists. The idea that Jesus existed is not especially more controversial than the Big Bang, I don't think, so I don't think that historical Jesus is a terribly POV title. I'd add that this article ought to be seriously rewritten, so that it actually is an article about the "historical Jesus", rather than being an FAQ about what Jesus might have been like. A lot of scholars have written on the "historical Jesus" subject, and we ought to have a good article on it. john k 18:37, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
In this article I miss too many references Atenea26 19:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
The Jesus article uses BCE/BC and CE/AD as a compromise reached a long time ago to prevent edit warring. I would suggest we impliment a similar system. Because the subject is the Historical Jesus (and since a number of historians and secular scholars tend to use the BCE/CE system), I would say leaving in the more "Christian" system seems to invite edit warring. But I could be wrong. I'd propose using the same system the Jesus article uses for a compromise. But if others feel strongly another way, I'd enjoy to hear their opinions.-- Andrew c 00:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The Gospels never say that Jesus died at the age of 33. Infact, it only can be inferred from the data that is the Gospels ( the Four Gospels in the Bible can be trusted for their authenticity beyond any doubt) that He might have been 33 & half. And His resurrection henceforth.
I have a problem with the replacing of BC or BCE in direct quotations, for example a quote beginning the section on when Jesus was born uses BC/E - was this in the original quote? We ought not to mess with quotes like this. When quoting an author we should use their words. Lostcaesar 12:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
The Bible mentions a man criticized Jesus as false prophet and then jesus wrote something in the dust on the ground, which the man read and shut up promptly. This supports Jesus was literate. (Maybe Jesus wrote about a particular secret sin the protester had committed?)
Also, it is a matter of fact that Jesus spoke either greek or latin, since he diaglogued with Pilate without a translator, as evident from the gospels. It was probably greek (the lingua franca of the era) as a noble roman would never become low as to speak in the imperial latin language when addressing a barbarian. Also, greek was the language of international trade and we know jews of the time were already dispersed around the medditerraneum and jews have genetical talent for trade. 195.70.32.136 18:04, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I've set up three archive pages and linked them together with archive templates, so now this page is easier to navigate. :-) If there are any discussions that anyone feels that I cut off too soon, feel free to migrate them back here. אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 21:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
The most common name is "Jesus". This is clearly showed in Jesus article, to which Jesus of Nazareth redirects. Furthemore:
Hope not to start an edit war on this, but I am strongly supporting my point.-- Panairjdde 09:21, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I understand your concerns, however there are some things that I would like you to take into account:
I strongly suggest that we keep "of Nazereth" or, at the very least, add a disambiguation link at the top identical to that of the Jesus article. I would be happy with either or both, for the sake of all parties involved. אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 13:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Do we keep "of Nazareth" in the infobox?
Does anybody have anything relating to the life of Jesus betwen his childhood and the time of his death? There seems to be no records whatsoever... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.134.135.208 ( talk • contribs)
The only records that we really have are the Gospels. Many scholars have also worked on reconstructed hypothetical sources of those texts. Not much else, overall. What sources about his childhood other than the late infancy gospels are there? אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 16:38, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
See Infancy Gospel of Thomas (note that this is NOT the Gospel of Thomas) and Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew (which is NOT the Gospel of Matthew). Also see Glastonbury Abbey. Clinkophonist 18:30, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
That picture (the clay model) looks ridiculous, surely there has to be something better. Lostcaesar 00:58, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
The forensic reconstuction is archeologically important and belongs in this article. The "clay model" is an actual human skull from Israel's Roman Period. Who knows? Perhaps its one of Jesus's distant relatives. The skull should be here as an example of what the ancient Jews looked like. However it should be clearly labeled as a contemporary of Jesus whose genetic features may be suggestive of what Jesus looked like, including the roundess of the skull, dark hair, olive complexion, and so on. I feel strongly that a (clearly labled) picture must be here. Haldrik 03:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
This section cites only religious materials to support the idea of Jesus performing miracles. Therefore, it relates to a Biblical Jesus and not a historical one. DoItAgain 15:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
The following is a quick straw poll:
Q: Should we have the Jesus Template at the top of this article, or the Jesus Infobox as it is now?
Why is it that much of an article titled "Historical Jesus" is based on non-scholarly, speculative works like Graves, Eisenmann or even fiction like Messadie? Str1977 (smile back) 09:18, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
18:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
The Thadman has reverted "Jesus's" back to "Jesus'", saying in the edit summary that "Jesus' is proper grammar." I assure you that I am aware that it is acceptable to end Jesus, Achilles, and Brutus with just an apostrophe for the possessive, rather than an apostrophe followed by "s". However, I tend to use that only when a certain grouping of words has come down through the centuries: "Achilles' heel", "Achilles' tendon", but "Achilles's heroism"; "Brutus' Portia", but "Brutus's tendency to use words of one syllable". I never use it for Jesus, for the simple reason that I don't pronounce it as Jesus when it's possessive: I pronounce it as Jeezussez. That said, I wouldn't have changed what was already there except that I was editing the page anyway, and I saw there was a place where there were quotation marks around "Jesus" (not sure why) followed by the apostrophe. In the editing box, the double quotation mark looks quite distinct from the apostrophe, but when the page is saved (at least with Internet Explorer on Windows XP) it looks awful "'. Anyway, I won't revert back.
By the way, I also have a preference for the -ize spelling where words can be spelled with -ise or -ize. For one thing, it is more correct, showing which words come from Latin and which from Greek, Oxford and Cambridge use it, and as far as I know, the -ise spelling is only correct in British English, wherease the -ize spelling is always correct. (That is, unless it's a word which requires -ise, such as surprise, circumcise, etc.) I don't normally change an existing article to -ize spellings unless I find that is has a mixture of ises and izes. Whichever spelling we use, we should at least be consistent, and as the one taking the trouble to make them consistent, I claim the privilege of using the one I prefer. So in the next day or so, I'm going to change "baptise" to "baptize", since there are already some "baptize"s in the article. If anyone objects, speak now or forever hold your peace. AnnH ♫ 21:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
The article assumes the historicity of Jesus. A more appropriate title would be “A Christian's History of Jesus.”
The article asserts "facts" not yet established or proved in the article and does not include any extra-biblical references to found the assertion indicated by the title. The article does not introduce any opposing viewpoints and "general consensus" is a logically fallacious argument. Conspicuously missing is any reference to the earliest Christian sects that believed Jesus was a spiritual being and not an actual person.
Therefore, changing the title to “A Christian's History of Jesus” will accurately reflect the article's content. Theseus14 16:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I added a note at the top of the article to help clarify the nature of this article, similar to:
Feel free to tinker with it. -- Haldrik 00:43, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Notably, the "Quest for the Historical Jesus" is often called "Jesus Research". -- Haldrik 00:43, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
We cannot have an article about The Historical Jesus (HJ). I mean, ignoring the minority, yet relevent mythical Jesus (MJ) POV, we can only say maybe 4 things for sure about The Historical Jesus.
Point 4 may be pushing it, but everyone (except MJ-ists) would be able to agree on those aspects. Anything more would lead to debate. We cannot write one single article about the historical Jesus because there are so many different scholarly hypotheses. What we need instead of this article is an article that describes these different theories, instead of either presenting one as The Truth, or using original research to compose a new 'likely' HJ. I stand by my outline (and now that I have some more books, I may be able to contribute to filling out this outline, however, I sometimes lack faith in my writing skills).-- Andrew c 15:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
What are these sections about First Quest, Second Quest, and Third Quest? They make no sense. Could someone please put them into context? Asarelah 04:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I propose taking information from Cultural and historical background of Jesus and Historical Jesus and creating two seperate article: one focusing on history, and the other focusing on culture. I'd also propose less POV titles. For example Cultural background of 1st century Judea and History of Israel, 600 BCE - 150 CE. Reasoning: this article is really long, and this article doesn't really describe the cultural background, and parts of historical Jesus don't really describe the historical Jesus. I would love imput on this, and perhaps better title suggestions. If people agree with this proposal and we get some support, I'd propose creating two sandboxes in my userspace to start this process and I'd urge anyone interested to help contribute.-- Andrew c 16:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good. Have a look at the History of Palestine for a division of historical periods. "Early Roman Period" or "Roman Period" can work. -- Haldrik 21:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps we should tag the article, or some of its sections, with the cleanup tag in order to encourage more contributions. Lostcaesar 08:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph reads:
I wonder if this paragraph adds any relevant information. To summarize its points, it says that miracles have been attributed to many holy people, that there is debate as to whether the miracles of Jesus are real, and that "naturalistic historians" say they are not real. The last sentence is tautological in that naturalistic in this context means "denies miracles", and besides it is a philosophical view. This article at its lead asserted that it does not take up theological (and thus presumably is uncomfortable with philosophical) points. I could sum the other points of the sentence as follows: "Some people in history are claimed to have been miracle workers, and people argue over whether Jesus was one or not." That does not seem all to informative. The only really useful information is that Jesus' miracles are part exorcisms, part cures, and part dominion over nature – but that point seems to have potential as informative only if an analysis of such miracles followed, which doesn't. Lostcaesar 17:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
About the lead-in, I agree it is more mature now. I would still like it to make slightly stronger points on the problems of applying historical methods on a religious text. But anyway, the historical methods section needs lots of work! Currently the part in the cultural background is better. Anyway, I'm slightly confused, if this article is about scientific Jesus research, it should discuss the methods, the main problems, and then present the different Jesus theories. But I find the current material very interesting, it's like a debate on each issue. These two approaches to the subject don't work very well together, so I wonder what are the plans for this? -- Vesal 19:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I really wanted to insert material that elaborates on this distinction. My quotation from the Modern Catholic Encyclopedia was indeed out of context and therefore removed, but here is the full section, pages 433-434:
"The so called historical Jesus is really the historian's Jesus; that is, the Jesus reconstructed out of literary fragments by historians. The object of the Christian faith is not merely the historian's Jesus but rather the risen Jesus -- the one who says "I died, and behold I am alive forevermore" (Rev 1:19). Following the Gospels, the Catholic Church assumes continuity between Jesus portrayed in the Gospels and the risen Lord; "The sacred authors... told us the honest truth about Jesus" (DV 19). That basic continuity extends backward from the Gospel texts, through the complex transmission of the Jesus tradition and the earliest witnesses and formulas of faith, to Jesus of Nazareth. While admitting the complexity of the Jesus tradition, Catholic theology contends that the tradition is basically reliable and allows us to hear the voice of Jesus, and that behind that tradition there is the strong personality of Jesus of Nazareth who is also the risen Lord."
While stating that the historic personality of Jesus and the risen Lord are the same, it still distances itself from the term "historical Jesus" and refers to it as a non-catholic view, precisely because it does not assume the continuity between the Jesus portrayed in the gospels and the risen lord. As such, I believe it is fair to say that "the historical Jesus" is irrelevant to a religious understanding of Jesus. I guess I'm arguing that this article should be more about the secular view, but I will not edit this article anymore, as its scope seems to be quite different. Maybe the more secular view should be under Quest for the Historical Jesus or Historical Jesus theories. -- Vesal 18:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Lostcaesar 19:07, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I contend that an article entitled "Historical Jesus" should answers this question: "According to nonsectarian/secular/academic historians, who was Jesus?" This article is close, but like a lot of Wikipedia articles it presents a lot of "process" relative to results. The disambig statement at the top says that the article is "about Jesus the person." But here's the introductory paragraph. It is not about "Jesus the person." It is all about the process of figuring out who the historical Jesus is.
In the field known as Jesus research, scholars use scientific disciplines, including the historical method and Israeli archeology, to reconstruct a biography of the life and times of Jesus himself, as a historical figure. This is to be distinguished from the Biblical Jesus, which includes a theological reading of the Gospel texts. The distinction between the Jesus of history and the Christ of Faith began with the work of Hermann Samuel Reimarus.
If I go to an article called "Historical Jesus," I want to be told right away who he is. Process is interesting and needs to stay in the article, but basic information on the topic of the article should come first. The process is already handled at Historicity of Jesus. Look at this informative line from Jesus.
Most scholars in the fields of biblical studies and history agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher from Galilee, who was regarded as a healer, was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on orders of the Roman Governor Pontius Pilate under the accusation of sedition against the Roman Empire.
Now that line leaves a lot out, such as what he taught. But we could add a lot of information of this quality. So I'd like to take a crack at changing this article from being about the historical method as applied to Jesus to being about Jesus (as understood by nonsectarian historians). Jonathan Tweet 04:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
"Historicity of Jesus" is about whether Jesus exists as a historical figure or not. That is a different article / subject. Obviously, we don't need an article on the Historicity of Julius Caesar because (1) no one doubts his historicity, and (2) if someone did I suppose his views could easily be included on the main page. This article gives what various scholars think the historical method shows about Jesus. As it happens, this is a controversial subject with various scholarly views, and there is no consensus, so in this instance the article cannot respect the field of research neutrally without presenting the field as diverse and to an extent conflicting. It is worth mentioning that the historical method does not exclude miracles or religious scholars (or atheistic scholars). Instead, accounts of miracles may be examined by the historical method just as all other accounts may be. What the method does exclude are philosophical or religious assumptions. For example, the decisions of the Council of Nicene are obviously irrelevant to the subject. So would be a philosophical view that miracles are either false or unverifiable.
Labeling scholars as "sectarian" is problematic, and I could give reasons why we should be careful here, but the simplest and safest thing to say is that a particular scholar's arguments are somewhat independent of the scholar. Arguments are examined on their own merit — anything else is a veiled ad hominem. As for us here, the criteria for inclusion for a scholar are a relevant background in the field, general academic respect, and a relevant point of view. A scholar who says that the historical Jesus rose from the dead because the Creed says so would be one with an irrelevant point of view concerning this article and there would be no need for inclusion. A scholar who says that the historical Jesus rose from the dead because he judges the Gospel of Matthew a generally reliable source is, if he meets the other criteria, worthy of inclusion. Go back over those two sentences and add "not" before "rose from the dead" and we get the same standard for us here. Anything else is a violation of wikipedia neutrality. Lostcaesar 17:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
My proposed lead paragraph, which treats the topic of the article (unlike the current lead paragraph). "The historical Jesus is Jesus of Nazareth as reconstructed by historians who regard him as a natural man rather than as a supernatural entity. Though these acounts vary, in general they portray Jesus as a 1st-century Jewish sage or prophet who had a following but who did not establish a religion or send his disciples to convert the gentiles. Scholars of the historical Jesus use the historical method and Israeli archeology to reconstruct a biography of Jesus. They debate whether he preached the imminent end of the world, his connection to religious groups (such as the Essenes), and which sayings attributed to him are actually his. The so-called quest for the historical Jesus began with Hermann Samuel Reimarus and continues today with scholars such as the fellows of the Jesus Seminar." LC, I imagine that you will assert that this isn't what's meant by the term "historical Jesus," but if you google "historical Jesus was," you'll see that this is how the term is generally used. Jonathan Tweet 02:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, here's another shot: "The historical Jesus is Jesus of Nazareth as reconstructed by historians using modern historical methods. Though these acounts vary, in general they portray Jesus as a 1st-century Jewish sage or prophet who had a following but who did not establish a religion or send his disciples to convert the gentiles. Scholars of the historical Jesus use the historical method and Israeli archeology to reconstruct a biography of Jesus. They treat the Gospels and other early Christian writing as fallible historical artifacts. They debate whether Jesus preached the imminent end of the world, his connection to religious groups (such as the Essenes), and which sayings attributed to him are actually his. The so-called quest for the historical Jesus began with Hermann Samuel Reimarus and continues today with scholars such as the fellows of the Jesus Seminar." I eliminated reference to "nonsupernatural." Andrew and LC, if this doesn't suit you, please compose an alternative. It's certainly true that some scholars believe Jesus founded a religion, but "in general" (as I say) scholars of the historical Jesus don't think so. I don't want to overstate the case, but I don't want to understate it, either. In fact, this intro is weak in that it doesn't point out that, in general, this scholarship treats the miraculous events of Jesus life as ahistorical, but I'm willing to let that slide. Jonathan Tweet 15:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I began editing this article because I see some inelegancies of style and a few minor factual errors. The I grew uneasy with the article itself - it began to seem bogged down in trivia, such as the question of whether there was or was not a synagogue at Nazareth (a whole subsection on this?) I started wondering what the original authors/creators had in mind. And I discovered that there's a whole extended family of articles on related topics. And like Jesus' own family, the relationships are obscure. Anyway, I thought it might be useful to summarise here the articles I've come across, how they're grouped (because they really do come in groups), my own brief comments on them.
First there are the articles listed on the Jesus template, some under the section Non-religious Aspects, others under Perspectives on Jesus (though God knows why):
What else is there?
There's much more.
But to get back to the main point, what should this article be about? My own feeling is that we have a duty to remain faithful to the original intention: an article about "historical perpectives on Jesus' life", to quote Jesus and history. That's pretty much a paraphrase of what appears in the intro to the article as it now exists. Doing this would mean following up the ideas of various historians who have addressed the question, from Reimarus to the present. It would summarise their thoughts, and present them in historical perspective. It would concentrate on ideas on Jesus' nature (I mean his historical nature, not supernatural) and teachings. Quest for the Historical Jesus already addresses this - but it's simply a list of scholars. I suggest using that article as the basis for a revamped HJ, as it seems to be in line with the idea of an article treating historical perspectives on Jesus.
OK, what's going on? I pratically got into an edit war with three contributors on the HoJ page, because they (and one of them would be you, Lostcaesar) insist that HoJ is about examining the sources, not debating whether or not he existed, because the "majority" of scholars all agree, even the header on this page directs one to HoJ for disputes about his existence. Is the HoJ page just a POV fork? Seems like these two articles are about the same thing. Would someone please help me find the page that is about the debate of whether or not Jesus existed? And not Jesus-Myth which is about one side of the debate. Any insight into this issue would be appreciated. Thanks. Phyesalis 05:23, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, not this page but Historicity of Jesus. I totally posted this on the wrong page - they're so similar that it gets really confusing. Thanks. Phyesalis 07:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
The lay reader should read this header and think "This is where I learn about Jesus' death on a cross." Instead, this is where you see dueling critics and apologists. The cross is of little interest to historians of Jesus. It is of immense importance to people defending the literal interpretation of the Bible and to those attacking such an interpretation. The historical consensus is that Jesus was crucified by Pilate for trouble-making, maybe for whatever it was that the gospels record as the cleansing of the temple. Historians are interested in why he was executed, whether he intended to be executed, and so on. But they don't spend a bunch of time on "Y-shaped crosses" and such. In fact, Markp88 just did a big POV overhaul of the section and I don't care. The material that was there before is also largely irrelevant to the historical Jesus. Jonathan Tweet 03:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd support a start-from-scratch approach. It's important that a section on the subject be included, but it shouldn't take this form. It should briefly review the fact that early Christians believed that Jesus died on a cross (an important point, given that it was a shameful death), and then cqanvass the facts of death by crucifixion in a general sense - who controlled the process, the possibility (indeed probability) that the Gospels' involvement of the Jewish Sanhedrin was an early Christian attempt to shift blame from the Romans to the Jews, and possibly something about the disposal of bodies - although at that point we're getting into the Resurrection, which belongs to the Jesus of faith rather than the Jesus of history. Just a suggested outline. PiCo 08:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The first several sections are of little interest and are highly detailed. What's important about this guy historically is his ministry, not his home town, etc. Can all this stuff be moved to a spin-off page? Or can the ministry sections be moved to the front, in front of "biography"? Jonathan Tweet 14:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
PiCo, I like your proposed structure. I'd keep the family stuff in the back as sort of an appendix. Some scholars, such as James Tabor, see the family connection as important. Jonathan Tweet 02:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to delete this section. My problem isn't with anything it says, but with it's relevance - this article is supposed to be about what history can tell us about the historical Jesus, so what's the existence or non-existence of a synagogue at Nazareth to do with that? Is it meant to support the case that Jesus could read? Then put something in the relevant section. Is it meant to say that Nazareth was a big place, big enough to have a synagogue? Just what is it meant to mean? In my view, a whole section devoted to this arcane topic seems more than slightly disproportionate. So should it stay or go? PiCo 08:46, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Could we do a spinoff page that covers all the picky, long-winded, nonmainstream ideas that both attack and defend biblical inerrancy? Then this page could focus on history, while the sister page would relate how history has been used to attack and defend the gospels' account of Jesus. Who really cares whether Jesus' siblings were half-siblings, etc.? Christians and anti-Christians, that's who. Jonathan Tweet 21:30, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
PiCo, here's my suggestion. I rewrite the terrible lead section for Cultural and historical background of Jesus. Then we basically port that lead section into a section on this article, with a pointer to the lead article. But what do we do with all the picky quibbling that this page already has? Jonathan Tweet 15:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's my latest plan for this page and Cultural and historical background of Jesus. This page has a section called "Cultural and historical background of Jesus" linked to the other article as its "main" and Cultural and historical background of Jesus has a section called "Historical Jesus" linked to this page as its "main." Then the material on Cultural and historical background of Jesus that's really Historical Jesus gets transplanted here and summarized there. Jonathan Tweet 03:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Historical Jesus was Jewish, and I have an academic source. LC, if you have an academic source showing that "ethnically Jewish" is better for the historical Jesus, bring it. Jonathan Tweet 02:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
It strikes me that it is arguable that in the 1st century AD, "ethnically Jewish" is more or less redundant - cult and ethnicity are not easily separated in the ancient world, and "Judah" was a tribe before it was a religion. john k 07:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Jesus (both the real and the historical Jesus) was Jewish period. That's not to say that he was Jewish in the sense of Rabbinical Judaism or that he somehow belongs to that religion. In his day, separations had not yet become distinct. Str1977 (smile back) 07:46, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Where does this claim that the papal Mandylion is "considered to be the earliest image of Jesus" come from? It is not a scholarly view, but the province of Turid Shroud theorists and devotees. The oldest images we have are ancient Roman ones, from catacombs etc. Paul B 17:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I put some material in my user space. Someone copied it into the article without any attribution to me. This violates the GFDL. I am removing the material on those grounds, but generally, I don't want my content included in this article. I didn't understand before that the GFDL extends to User pages. Please forgive this solecism and allow me to keep my content peaceably. Thank you. -- Peter Kirby 09:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed this sentence: " In 1968, the body of Yohanan Ben Ha'galgol, a man who died by crucifixion in the first century, was discovered at a burial site outside ancient Jerusalem, in an ossuary.[ref]Vasilius Tzaferis, "Jewish Tombs At and Near Giv'at ha-Mivtar," Israel Exploration Journal 20 (1970) pp. 38-59". While interesting when studying ancient crucifixions, it's original research to use this source in this manner. I searched Brown and while this article is listed in his general bibliography, it is not discussed any further or cited directly. Same goes for Crossan and Ehrman. As for the early Christian sources, this information is probably more relevent on the Death and Resurrection page than here. Do we have modern scholars citing early Christian sources regarding the Jew's positions as a major part in their historical Jesus reconstructions? Also, Crossan does not say "I know for a fact that Jesus was feed to the dogs". The title of the chapter is a little outragous, but he argues that those who cared to know what happened to Jesus' body didn't know, and those who did know didn't care. He goes over the historical likelihood of taking bodies down, and what usually happened to crucified corpses. He concluded that historical circumstances are more likely than the tales invented by devout followers (who didn't have the means to get a body or even know where it ended up). I've tried to change the article to reflect this. -- Andrew c 16:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Lostcaesar 19:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC) PS, I will say that, slowly, this section is crawling towards getting better, and this process is a good reason why. Lostcaesar 19:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
That picture (the clay model) looks ridiculous, surely there has to be something better. Lostcaesar 00:58, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
That picture (the clay model) looks ridiculous, surely there has to be something better. Lostcaesar 00:58, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I too find the reconstructed skull problematic. Also, the forensic scientist who made it intentionally made it look as "African" as possible (but within the range of features assumed to be present in 1st century Israel). Hence the darker skin and curly black hair. At the other end of the spectrum, light skin and straight brown hair was an equally valid choice for the reconstruction. Annoyingly, the publicists of the project were as deceptive as possible, to imply this actually was Jesus and was exactly what he looked like. Nevertheless, that said: The forensic reconstuction is archeologically important and belongs in this article. The "clay model" is an actual human skull from Israel's Roman Period. Who knows? Perhaps its one of Jesus's distant relatives. The skull should be here as an example of what the ancient Jews looked like. However it should be clearly labeled as a contemporary of Jesus whose genetic features may be suggestive of what Jesus looked like, including the roundess of the skull, dark hair, olive complexion, and so on. I feel strongly that a (clearly labled) picture must be here. Haldrik 03:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Bill Clinton | |
---|---|
A photograph of someone from the same time and place of Bill Clinton. No first hand portraits of Clinton exist. |
What about Cultural setting of Jesus, as in "this is a picture of an average 30 year old male from the same cultural setting as Jesus" rather than "this is a picture of what Jesus really looked like according to science" ? Clinkophonist 00:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Can we rename the facial image as well, otherwise we have a situation a bit like :
Clinkophonist 18:39, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Template:Bibleref has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Jon513 19:30, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I deleted some content before because it was duplicate -- Atenea26 21:00 , 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Its a good article but the title is a bit awkward.
It seems to assert that Jesus existed (which Historicity of Jesus claims is disputed rather than universally agreed upon fact), and that its content is a completely factual reconstruction of exactly who Jesus was (c.f. various Christian groups disputing this).
What it does not contain is [[Historical critical analysis of the Bible and early Christian traditions in order to assertain scientifically how much of the Biblical description of Jesus is likely to be true, and a reconstruction of the significant details of Jesus' life based upon this]]
What it actually contains is a Scientific reconstruction of the day to day life of a person of similar cultural background to Jesus living in the same time period and carrying out a similar style of ministry. But that isn't a very good title - its far too long for a start.
I think the article desperately needs renaming, but Im not sure what people think would be more descriptive in regards to its content? Clinkophonist 14:56, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
We shouldn't say in articles that creationism is nonsense, obviously. But our articles about scientific topics like the Big Bang and evolution aren't notably inconvenienced by the objections of young earth creationists. The idea that Jesus existed is not especially more controversial than the Big Bang, I don't think, so I don't think that historical Jesus is a terribly POV title. I'd add that this article ought to be seriously rewritten, so that it actually is an article about the "historical Jesus", rather than being an FAQ about what Jesus might have been like. A lot of scholars have written on the "historical Jesus" subject, and we ought to have a good article on it. john k 18:37, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
In this article I miss too many references Atenea26 19:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
The Jesus article uses BCE/BC and CE/AD as a compromise reached a long time ago to prevent edit warring. I would suggest we impliment a similar system. Because the subject is the Historical Jesus (and since a number of historians and secular scholars tend to use the BCE/CE system), I would say leaving in the more "Christian" system seems to invite edit warring. But I could be wrong. I'd propose using the same system the Jesus article uses for a compromise. But if others feel strongly another way, I'd enjoy to hear their opinions.-- Andrew c 00:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The Gospels never say that Jesus died at the age of 33. Infact, it only can be inferred from the data that is the Gospels ( the Four Gospels in the Bible can be trusted for their authenticity beyond any doubt) that He might have been 33 & half. And His resurrection henceforth.
I have a problem with the replacing of BC or BCE in direct quotations, for example a quote beginning the section on when Jesus was born uses BC/E - was this in the original quote? We ought not to mess with quotes like this. When quoting an author we should use their words. Lostcaesar 12:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
The Bible mentions a man criticized Jesus as false prophet and then jesus wrote something in the dust on the ground, which the man read and shut up promptly. This supports Jesus was literate. (Maybe Jesus wrote about a particular secret sin the protester had committed?)
Also, it is a matter of fact that Jesus spoke either greek or latin, since he diaglogued with Pilate without a translator, as evident from the gospels. It was probably greek (the lingua franca of the era) as a noble roman would never become low as to speak in the imperial latin language when addressing a barbarian. Also, greek was the language of international trade and we know jews of the time were already dispersed around the medditerraneum and jews have genetical talent for trade. 195.70.32.136 18:04, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I've set up three archive pages and linked them together with archive templates, so now this page is easier to navigate. :-) If there are any discussions that anyone feels that I cut off too soon, feel free to migrate them back here. אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 21:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
The most common name is "Jesus". This is clearly showed in Jesus article, to which Jesus of Nazareth redirects. Furthemore:
Hope not to start an edit war on this, but I am strongly supporting my point.-- Panairjdde 09:21, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I understand your concerns, however there are some things that I would like you to take into account:
I strongly suggest that we keep "of Nazereth" or, at the very least, add a disambiguation link at the top identical to that of the Jesus article. I would be happy with either or both, for the sake of all parties involved. אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 13:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Do we keep "of Nazareth" in the infobox?
Does anybody have anything relating to the life of Jesus betwen his childhood and the time of his death? There seems to be no records whatsoever... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.134.135.208 ( talk • contribs)
The only records that we really have are the Gospels. Many scholars have also worked on reconstructed hypothetical sources of those texts. Not much else, overall. What sources about his childhood other than the late infancy gospels are there? אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 16:38, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
See Infancy Gospel of Thomas (note that this is NOT the Gospel of Thomas) and Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew (which is NOT the Gospel of Matthew). Also see Glastonbury Abbey. Clinkophonist 18:30, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
That picture (the clay model) looks ridiculous, surely there has to be something better. Lostcaesar 00:58, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
The forensic reconstuction is archeologically important and belongs in this article. The "clay model" is an actual human skull from Israel's Roman Period. Who knows? Perhaps its one of Jesus's distant relatives. The skull should be here as an example of what the ancient Jews looked like. However it should be clearly labeled as a contemporary of Jesus whose genetic features may be suggestive of what Jesus looked like, including the roundess of the skull, dark hair, olive complexion, and so on. I feel strongly that a (clearly labled) picture must be here. Haldrik 03:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
This section cites only religious materials to support the idea of Jesus performing miracles. Therefore, it relates to a Biblical Jesus and not a historical one. DoItAgain 15:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
The following is a quick straw poll:
Q: Should we have the Jesus Template at the top of this article, or the Jesus Infobox as it is now?
Why is it that much of an article titled "Historical Jesus" is based on non-scholarly, speculative works like Graves, Eisenmann or even fiction like Messadie? Str1977 (smile back) 09:18, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
18:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
The Thadman has reverted "Jesus's" back to "Jesus'", saying in the edit summary that "Jesus' is proper grammar." I assure you that I am aware that it is acceptable to end Jesus, Achilles, and Brutus with just an apostrophe for the possessive, rather than an apostrophe followed by "s". However, I tend to use that only when a certain grouping of words has come down through the centuries: "Achilles' heel", "Achilles' tendon", but "Achilles's heroism"; "Brutus' Portia", but "Brutus's tendency to use words of one syllable". I never use it for Jesus, for the simple reason that I don't pronounce it as Jesus when it's possessive: I pronounce it as Jeezussez. That said, I wouldn't have changed what was already there except that I was editing the page anyway, and I saw there was a place where there were quotation marks around "Jesus" (not sure why) followed by the apostrophe. In the editing box, the double quotation mark looks quite distinct from the apostrophe, but when the page is saved (at least with Internet Explorer on Windows XP) it looks awful "'. Anyway, I won't revert back.
By the way, I also have a preference for the -ize spelling where words can be spelled with -ise or -ize. For one thing, it is more correct, showing which words come from Latin and which from Greek, Oxford and Cambridge use it, and as far as I know, the -ise spelling is only correct in British English, wherease the -ize spelling is always correct. (That is, unless it's a word which requires -ise, such as surprise, circumcise, etc.) I don't normally change an existing article to -ize spellings unless I find that is has a mixture of ises and izes. Whichever spelling we use, we should at least be consistent, and as the one taking the trouble to make them consistent, I claim the privilege of using the one I prefer. So in the next day or so, I'm going to change "baptise" to "baptize", since there are already some "baptize"s in the article. If anyone objects, speak now or forever hold your peace. AnnH ♫ 21:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
The article assumes the historicity of Jesus. A more appropriate title would be “A Christian's History of Jesus.”
The article asserts "facts" not yet established or proved in the article and does not include any extra-biblical references to found the assertion indicated by the title. The article does not introduce any opposing viewpoints and "general consensus" is a logically fallacious argument. Conspicuously missing is any reference to the earliest Christian sects that believed Jesus was a spiritual being and not an actual person.
Therefore, changing the title to “A Christian's History of Jesus” will accurately reflect the article's content. Theseus14 16:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I added a note at the top of the article to help clarify the nature of this article, similar to:
Feel free to tinker with it. -- Haldrik 00:43, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Notably, the "Quest for the Historical Jesus" is often called "Jesus Research". -- Haldrik 00:43, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
We cannot have an article about The Historical Jesus (HJ). I mean, ignoring the minority, yet relevent mythical Jesus (MJ) POV, we can only say maybe 4 things for sure about The Historical Jesus.
Point 4 may be pushing it, but everyone (except MJ-ists) would be able to agree on those aspects. Anything more would lead to debate. We cannot write one single article about the historical Jesus because there are so many different scholarly hypotheses. What we need instead of this article is an article that describes these different theories, instead of either presenting one as The Truth, or using original research to compose a new 'likely' HJ. I stand by my outline (and now that I have some more books, I may be able to contribute to filling out this outline, however, I sometimes lack faith in my writing skills).-- Andrew c 15:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
What are these sections about First Quest, Second Quest, and Third Quest? They make no sense. Could someone please put them into context? Asarelah 04:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I propose taking information from Cultural and historical background of Jesus and Historical Jesus and creating two seperate article: one focusing on history, and the other focusing on culture. I'd also propose less POV titles. For example Cultural background of 1st century Judea and History of Israel, 600 BCE - 150 CE. Reasoning: this article is really long, and this article doesn't really describe the cultural background, and parts of historical Jesus don't really describe the historical Jesus. I would love imput on this, and perhaps better title suggestions. If people agree with this proposal and we get some support, I'd propose creating two sandboxes in my userspace to start this process and I'd urge anyone interested to help contribute.-- Andrew c 16:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good. Have a look at the History of Palestine for a division of historical periods. "Early Roman Period" or "Roman Period" can work. -- Haldrik 21:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps we should tag the article, or some of its sections, with the cleanup tag in order to encourage more contributions. Lostcaesar 08:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph reads:
I wonder if this paragraph adds any relevant information. To summarize its points, it says that miracles have been attributed to many holy people, that there is debate as to whether the miracles of Jesus are real, and that "naturalistic historians" say they are not real. The last sentence is tautological in that naturalistic in this context means "denies miracles", and besides it is a philosophical view. This article at its lead asserted that it does not take up theological (and thus presumably is uncomfortable with philosophical) points. I could sum the other points of the sentence as follows: "Some people in history are claimed to have been miracle workers, and people argue over whether Jesus was one or not." That does not seem all to informative. The only really useful information is that Jesus' miracles are part exorcisms, part cures, and part dominion over nature – but that point seems to have potential as informative only if an analysis of such miracles followed, which doesn't. Lostcaesar 17:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
About the lead-in, I agree it is more mature now. I would still like it to make slightly stronger points on the problems of applying historical methods on a religious text. But anyway, the historical methods section needs lots of work! Currently the part in the cultural background is better. Anyway, I'm slightly confused, if this article is about scientific Jesus research, it should discuss the methods, the main problems, and then present the different Jesus theories. But I find the current material very interesting, it's like a debate on each issue. These two approaches to the subject don't work very well together, so I wonder what are the plans for this? -- Vesal 19:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I really wanted to insert material that elaborates on this distinction. My quotation from the Modern Catholic Encyclopedia was indeed out of context and therefore removed, but here is the full section, pages 433-434:
"The so called historical Jesus is really the historian's Jesus; that is, the Jesus reconstructed out of literary fragments by historians. The object of the Christian faith is not merely the historian's Jesus but rather the risen Jesus -- the one who says "I died, and behold I am alive forevermore" (Rev 1:19). Following the Gospels, the Catholic Church assumes continuity between Jesus portrayed in the Gospels and the risen Lord; "The sacred authors... told us the honest truth about Jesus" (DV 19). That basic continuity extends backward from the Gospel texts, through the complex transmission of the Jesus tradition and the earliest witnesses and formulas of faith, to Jesus of Nazareth. While admitting the complexity of the Jesus tradition, Catholic theology contends that the tradition is basically reliable and allows us to hear the voice of Jesus, and that behind that tradition there is the strong personality of Jesus of Nazareth who is also the risen Lord."
While stating that the historic personality of Jesus and the risen Lord are the same, it still distances itself from the term "historical Jesus" and refers to it as a non-catholic view, precisely because it does not assume the continuity between the Jesus portrayed in the gospels and the risen lord. As such, I believe it is fair to say that "the historical Jesus" is irrelevant to a religious understanding of Jesus. I guess I'm arguing that this article should be more about the secular view, but I will not edit this article anymore, as its scope seems to be quite different. Maybe the more secular view should be under Quest for the Historical Jesus or Historical Jesus theories. -- Vesal 18:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Lostcaesar 19:07, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I contend that an article entitled "Historical Jesus" should answers this question: "According to nonsectarian/secular/academic historians, who was Jesus?" This article is close, but like a lot of Wikipedia articles it presents a lot of "process" relative to results. The disambig statement at the top says that the article is "about Jesus the person." But here's the introductory paragraph. It is not about "Jesus the person." It is all about the process of figuring out who the historical Jesus is.
In the field known as Jesus research, scholars use scientific disciplines, including the historical method and Israeli archeology, to reconstruct a biography of the life and times of Jesus himself, as a historical figure. This is to be distinguished from the Biblical Jesus, which includes a theological reading of the Gospel texts. The distinction between the Jesus of history and the Christ of Faith began with the work of Hermann Samuel Reimarus.
If I go to an article called "Historical Jesus," I want to be told right away who he is. Process is interesting and needs to stay in the article, but basic information on the topic of the article should come first. The process is already handled at Historicity of Jesus. Look at this informative line from Jesus.
Most scholars in the fields of biblical studies and history agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher from Galilee, who was regarded as a healer, was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on orders of the Roman Governor Pontius Pilate under the accusation of sedition against the Roman Empire.
Now that line leaves a lot out, such as what he taught. But we could add a lot of information of this quality. So I'd like to take a crack at changing this article from being about the historical method as applied to Jesus to being about Jesus (as understood by nonsectarian historians). Jonathan Tweet 04:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
"Historicity of Jesus" is about whether Jesus exists as a historical figure or not. That is a different article / subject. Obviously, we don't need an article on the Historicity of Julius Caesar because (1) no one doubts his historicity, and (2) if someone did I suppose his views could easily be included on the main page. This article gives what various scholars think the historical method shows about Jesus. As it happens, this is a controversial subject with various scholarly views, and there is no consensus, so in this instance the article cannot respect the field of research neutrally without presenting the field as diverse and to an extent conflicting. It is worth mentioning that the historical method does not exclude miracles or religious scholars (or atheistic scholars). Instead, accounts of miracles may be examined by the historical method just as all other accounts may be. What the method does exclude are philosophical or religious assumptions. For example, the decisions of the Council of Nicene are obviously irrelevant to the subject. So would be a philosophical view that miracles are either false or unverifiable.
Labeling scholars as "sectarian" is problematic, and I could give reasons why we should be careful here, but the simplest and safest thing to say is that a particular scholar's arguments are somewhat independent of the scholar. Arguments are examined on their own merit — anything else is a veiled ad hominem. As for us here, the criteria for inclusion for a scholar are a relevant background in the field, general academic respect, and a relevant point of view. A scholar who says that the historical Jesus rose from the dead because the Creed says so would be one with an irrelevant point of view concerning this article and there would be no need for inclusion. A scholar who says that the historical Jesus rose from the dead because he judges the Gospel of Matthew a generally reliable source is, if he meets the other criteria, worthy of inclusion. Go back over those two sentences and add "not" before "rose from the dead" and we get the same standard for us here. Anything else is a violation of wikipedia neutrality. Lostcaesar 17:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
My proposed lead paragraph, which treats the topic of the article (unlike the current lead paragraph). "The historical Jesus is Jesus of Nazareth as reconstructed by historians who regard him as a natural man rather than as a supernatural entity. Though these acounts vary, in general they portray Jesus as a 1st-century Jewish sage or prophet who had a following but who did not establish a religion or send his disciples to convert the gentiles. Scholars of the historical Jesus use the historical method and Israeli archeology to reconstruct a biography of Jesus. They debate whether he preached the imminent end of the world, his connection to religious groups (such as the Essenes), and which sayings attributed to him are actually his. The so-called quest for the historical Jesus began with Hermann Samuel Reimarus and continues today with scholars such as the fellows of the Jesus Seminar." LC, I imagine that you will assert that this isn't what's meant by the term "historical Jesus," but if you google "historical Jesus was," you'll see that this is how the term is generally used. Jonathan Tweet 02:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, here's another shot: "The historical Jesus is Jesus of Nazareth as reconstructed by historians using modern historical methods. Though these acounts vary, in general they portray Jesus as a 1st-century Jewish sage or prophet who had a following but who did not establish a religion or send his disciples to convert the gentiles. Scholars of the historical Jesus use the historical method and Israeli archeology to reconstruct a biography of Jesus. They treat the Gospels and other early Christian writing as fallible historical artifacts. They debate whether Jesus preached the imminent end of the world, his connection to religious groups (such as the Essenes), and which sayings attributed to him are actually his. The so-called quest for the historical Jesus began with Hermann Samuel Reimarus and continues today with scholars such as the fellows of the Jesus Seminar." I eliminated reference to "nonsupernatural." Andrew and LC, if this doesn't suit you, please compose an alternative. It's certainly true that some scholars believe Jesus founded a religion, but "in general" (as I say) scholars of the historical Jesus don't think so. I don't want to overstate the case, but I don't want to understate it, either. In fact, this intro is weak in that it doesn't point out that, in general, this scholarship treats the miraculous events of Jesus life as ahistorical, but I'm willing to let that slide. Jonathan Tweet 15:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I began editing this article because I see some inelegancies of style and a few minor factual errors. The I grew uneasy with the article itself - it began to seem bogged down in trivia, such as the question of whether there was or was not a synagogue at Nazareth (a whole subsection on this?) I started wondering what the original authors/creators had in mind. And I discovered that there's a whole extended family of articles on related topics. And like Jesus' own family, the relationships are obscure. Anyway, I thought it might be useful to summarise here the articles I've come across, how they're grouped (because they really do come in groups), my own brief comments on them.
First there are the articles listed on the Jesus template, some under the section Non-religious Aspects, others under Perspectives on Jesus (though God knows why):
What else is there?
There's much more.
But to get back to the main point, what should this article be about? My own feeling is that we have a duty to remain faithful to the original intention: an article about "historical perpectives on Jesus' life", to quote Jesus and history. That's pretty much a paraphrase of what appears in the intro to the article as it now exists. Doing this would mean following up the ideas of various historians who have addressed the question, from Reimarus to the present. It would summarise their thoughts, and present them in historical perspective. It would concentrate on ideas on Jesus' nature (I mean his historical nature, not supernatural) and teachings. Quest for the Historical Jesus already addresses this - but it's simply a list of scholars. I suggest using that article as the basis for a revamped HJ, as it seems to be in line with the idea of an article treating historical perspectives on Jesus.
OK, what's going on? I pratically got into an edit war with three contributors on the HoJ page, because they (and one of them would be you, Lostcaesar) insist that HoJ is about examining the sources, not debating whether or not he existed, because the "majority" of scholars all agree, even the header on this page directs one to HoJ for disputes about his existence. Is the HoJ page just a POV fork? Seems like these two articles are about the same thing. Would someone please help me find the page that is about the debate of whether or not Jesus existed? And not Jesus-Myth which is about one side of the debate. Any insight into this issue would be appreciated. Thanks. Phyesalis 05:23, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, not this page but Historicity of Jesus. I totally posted this on the wrong page - they're so similar that it gets really confusing. Thanks. Phyesalis 07:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
The lay reader should read this header and think "This is where I learn about Jesus' death on a cross." Instead, this is where you see dueling critics and apologists. The cross is of little interest to historians of Jesus. It is of immense importance to people defending the literal interpretation of the Bible and to those attacking such an interpretation. The historical consensus is that Jesus was crucified by Pilate for trouble-making, maybe for whatever it was that the gospels record as the cleansing of the temple. Historians are interested in why he was executed, whether he intended to be executed, and so on. But they don't spend a bunch of time on "Y-shaped crosses" and such. In fact, Markp88 just did a big POV overhaul of the section and I don't care. The material that was there before is also largely irrelevant to the historical Jesus. Jonathan Tweet 03:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd support a start-from-scratch approach. It's important that a section on the subject be included, but it shouldn't take this form. It should briefly review the fact that early Christians believed that Jesus died on a cross (an important point, given that it was a shameful death), and then cqanvass the facts of death by crucifixion in a general sense - who controlled the process, the possibility (indeed probability) that the Gospels' involvement of the Jewish Sanhedrin was an early Christian attempt to shift blame from the Romans to the Jews, and possibly something about the disposal of bodies - although at that point we're getting into the Resurrection, which belongs to the Jesus of faith rather than the Jesus of history. Just a suggested outline. PiCo 08:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The first several sections are of little interest and are highly detailed. What's important about this guy historically is his ministry, not his home town, etc. Can all this stuff be moved to a spin-off page? Or can the ministry sections be moved to the front, in front of "biography"? Jonathan Tweet 14:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
PiCo, I like your proposed structure. I'd keep the family stuff in the back as sort of an appendix. Some scholars, such as James Tabor, see the family connection as important. Jonathan Tweet 02:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to delete this section. My problem isn't with anything it says, but with it's relevance - this article is supposed to be about what history can tell us about the historical Jesus, so what's the existence or non-existence of a synagogue at Nazareth to do with that? Is it meant to support the case that Jesus could read? Then put something in the relevant section. Is it meant to say that Nazareth was a big place, big enough to have a synagogue? Just what is it meant to mean? In my view, a whole section devoted to this arcane topic seems more than slightly disproportionate. So should it stay or go? PiCo 08:46, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Could we do a spinoff page that covers all the picky, long-winded, nonmainstream ideas that both attack and defend biblical inerrancy? Then this page could focus on history, while the sister page would relate how history has been used to attack and defend the gospels' account of Jesus. Who really cares whether Jesus' siblings were half-siblings, etc.? Christians and anti-Christians, that's who. Jonathan Tweet 21:30, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
PiCo, here's my suggestion. I rewrite the terrible lead section for Cultural and historical background of Jesus. Then we basically port that lead section into a section on this article, with a pointer to the lead article. But what do we do with all the picky quibbling that this page already has? Jonathan Tweet 15:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's my latest plan for this page and Cultural and historical background of Jesus. This page has a section called "Cultural and historical background of Jesus" linked to the other article as its "main" and Cultural and historical background of Jesus has a section called "Historical Jesus" linked to this page as its "main." Then the material on Cultural and historical background of Jesus that's really Historical Jesus gets transplanted here and summarized there. Jonathan Tweet 03:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Historical Jesus was Jewish, and I have an academic source. LC, if you have an academic source showing that "ethnically Jewish" is better for the historical Jesus, bring it. Jonathan Tweet 02:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
It strikes me that it is arguable that in the 1st century AD, "ethnically Jewish" is more or less redundant - cult and ethnicity are not easily separated in the ancient world, and "Judah" was a tribe before it was a religion. john k 07:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Jesus (both the real and the historical Jesus) was Jewish period. That's not to say that he was Jewish in the sense of Rabbinical Judaism or that he somehow belongs to that religion. In his day, separations had not yet become distinct. Str1977 (smile back) 07:46, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Where does this claim that the papal Mandylion is "considered to be the earliest image of Jesus" come from? It is not a scholarly view, but the province of Turid Shroud theorists and devotees. The oldest images we have are ancient Roman ones, from catacombs etc. Paul B 17:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I put some material in my user space. Someone copied it into the article without any attribution to me. This violates the GFDL. I am removing the material on those grounds, but generally, I don't want my content included in this article. I didn't understand before that the GFDL extends to User pages. Please forgive this solecism and allow me to keep my content peaceably. Thank you. -- Peter Kirby 09:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed this sentence: " In 1968, the body of Yohanan Ben Ha'galgol, a man who died by crucifixion in the first century, was discovered at a burial site outside ancient Jerusalem, in an ossuary.[ref]Vasilius Tzaferis, "Jewish Tombs At and Near Giv'at ha-Mivtar," Israel Exploration Journal 20 (1970) pp. 38-59". While interesting when studying ancient crucifixions, it's original research to use this source in this manner. I searched Brown and while this article is listed in his general bibliography, it is not discussed any further or cited directly. Same goes for Crossan and Ehrman. As for the early Christian sources, this information is probably more relevent on the Death and Resurrection page than here. Do we have modern scholars citing early Christian sources regarding the Jew's positions as a major part in their historical Jesus reconstructions? Also, Crossan does not say "I know for a fact that Jesus was feed to the dogs". The title of the chapter is a little outragous, but he argues that those who cared to know what happened to Jesus' body didn't know, and those who did know didn't care. He goes over the historical likelihood of taking bodies down, and what usually happened to crucified corpses. He concluded that historical circumstances are more likely than the tales invented by devout followers (who didn't have the means to get a body or even know where it ended up). I've tried to change the article to reflect this. -- Andrew c 16:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Lostcaesar 19:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC) PS, I will say that, slowly, this section is crawling towards getting better, and this process is a good reason why. Lostcaesar 19:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)