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I've added references, and so am removing the 'references' tag. BuffaloSpringfield 13:34, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the stub tag, after reviewing WP:stub guidelines and be bold policy BuffaloSpringfield 21:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
The actual author of Hickory Wind seems likely to be Sylvia Sammons, a blind singer-songwriter who began singing it in the early Sixties, and certainly by 1963, when Parsons visited the city. The second verse added by Bob Buchanan was not written by Parsons, so the original deception was probably that of Parsons alone. It may have been a honest mistake at first, since his various addictions made him an unstable witness, but it's also true that he claimed or hinted at co-authorship of at least one song, Honky Tonk Women, which was vigorously disputed by Mick Jagger and Keith Richards. In any event, the copyright was purchased from Sammons and credit assigned by fiat, if not in fact. Among folk musicians of that era and area, Sammons is widely known to be the true author. You can find the dispute in many places on the web, but the most detailed seems to be at [ Folklinks], Crediting Hickory Wind, written by David W. Johnson. -- Lee-Anne 18:26, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
One small but factual point: in the main entry, the use of the word "refuted" in describing the claims of Buchanan and Parsons should be "rebutted," since the meaning of "refuted" is to PROVE an argument wrong...; they mainly assert their view, not prove hers wrong.... Stephen Lee, Grand Forks, ND —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.174.58.20 ( talk) 02:56, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
This section is filled with WP:SYNTH. The paragraph beginning with "Calling her claim further into doubt..." talks of "a woman with the same name, Sylvia Sammons" with no evidence this is the same Sammons. It is WP:OR to claim this is evidence of anything without a reference saying it is the same person. There is further original research in using that article to extrapolate what her age "must have been" and therefore deciding that it is proof of anything at all. I have removed it but the editor who added it, @ Eldanger25:, keeps readding it. References must explicitly state what is being claimed in the article and this reference does not do that. ThaddeusSholto ( talk) 12:22, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
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Should the following paragraph (see below) be added after the second paragraph in the Authorship Controversy section? Robert McClenon ( talk) 05:30, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
A 1993 Orlando Sentinel article, published 9 years before Ms. Sammons's initial public claim of authorship in 2002, profiled Sylvia Sammons, a 42 year old blind female folk singer from North Carolina who local city officials were concerned was panhandling in a Mt. Dora, Florida, public park; the article described Ms. Sammons as having been "a professional singer and guitar player for 12 years on the coffeehouse circuit," or beginning in 1981 - 13 years after "Hickory Wind" was first released by The Byrds. [1]
Please answer Yes or No or the equivalent in the Survey with a brief statement. Please do not reply to other editors in the Survey. That is what the Discussion section is for.
To reiterate my argument here: The paragraph beginning with "A 1993 Orlando Sentinel article, published 9 years before Ms. Sammons's initial public claim of authorship in 2002" shows that this is SYNTH. You cannot use an article which precedes the 2002 claim to refute the 2002 claim. This is original research on the part of the editor who added it. References must explicitly state what is being claimed in the article and this reference does not do that because it cannot. It cannot refute what hadn't yet happened.
WP:SYNTH specifically "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source." This is exactly what is happening with this paragraph. The editor even adds their own conclusion with "or beginning in 1981 - 13 years after "Hickory Wind" was first released by The Byrds." This is not in the 1993 article because that article has nothing to do with Hickory Wind or its authorship.
It is also OR to even claim this is the same Sylvia Sammons. There is no way to know that as the 1993 article about Sylvia Sammons and the 2002 article about Sylvia Sammons describe people of different ages; Eldanger25 even admits on the article talk page that it is "circumstantial evidence that it is the same person" which is definitely WP:OR. Again, the policy states that an editor cannot combine material from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated. ThaddeusSholto ( talk) 12:29, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
The online version of the 1993 Orlando Sentinel article doesn't include any photographs of Sylvia Sammons, but I was able to find a print version with a photo of her at Newspapers.com. And I have to say there is a striking resemblance between the two women: 1993 Orlando article and the 2002 folklinks article. Here are two more articles from the Orland Sentinel with a photograph of Sammons from 1994, and 1996 (same photo from 1994, but close up). And apparently, she was granted the right to sing there in Florida, because there is a boatload of articles from various Florida newspapers from around that same time period with articles about her singing and scheduled performances.
Researching further back, an article about her in Highlands NC singing on balcony in 1998, 1990 on the balcony, here she is in 1990 woodworking in Highlands NC, and then further back to 1981 talking about her singing and how she lives in Greenville SC. And then further back to 1968 (with photo), from Greenville SC about her singing in Greenville, and being a former student at Furman, and how she had written some original songs (no mention of Hickory Wind). And then even further back to 1964, 1964 sophomore at Furman and 1963, showing she was a student at Furman University in Greenville SC. So if we are to believe the 2002 folklinks article which says: she was singing the song in Greenville, South Carolina, in 1963, she would have been a college student at the time, aged 18-19 years old, which tracks with this quote from the folklinks article - She must have been about 18, from L. Beatrice Hutzler.
Is it plausible that this is the same Sylvia Sammons from the 2002 folklinks article, my gut says yeah, more than likely it is, or in the alternative — it is a hell of a coincidence with two blind women named Sylvia Sammons, that look remarkably alike, with both having the same connections to the same geographical locations, both connected with woodworking, and both of them singing on a balcony. But, this is all original research and can not be used in the article.
And now getting back to WP:P&G, quite frankly, that entire section is UNDUE. Who says it is a "controversy", I don't see any independent sources making that claim, all I see is one source, and doing a search for "folklinks.com" on WP, shows it is only used one time in the Encyclopedia, in this article, so is it even a reliable source? And if folklinks is the only source making this claim, then it is not a significant viewpoint published by multiple reliable sources and that entire section should be removed as UNDUE. Isaidnoway (talk) 🍁 03:32, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
References
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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I've added references, and so am removing the 'references' tag. BuffaloSpringfield 13:34, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the stub tag, after reviewing WP:stub guidelines and be bold policy BuffaloSpringfield 21:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
The actual author of Hickory Wind seems likely to be Sylvia Sammons, a blind singer-songwriter who began singing it in the early Sixties, and certainly by 1963, when Parsons visited the city. The second verse added by Bob Buchanan was not written by Parsons, so the original deception was probably that of Parsons alone. It may have been a honest mistake at first, since his various addictions made him an unstable witness, but it's also true that he claimed or hinted at co-authorship of at least one song, Honky Tonk Women, which was vigorously disputed by Mick Jagger and Keith Richards. In any event, the copyright was purchased from Sammons and credit assigned by fiat, if not in fact. Among folk musicians of that era and area, Sammons is widely known to be the true author. You can find the dispute in many places on the web, but the most detailed seems to be at [ Folklinks], Crediting Hickory Wind, written by David W. Johnson. -- Lee-Anne 18:26, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
One small but factual point: in the main entry, the use of the word "refuted" in describing the claims of Buchanan and Parsons should be "rebutted," since the meaning of "refuted" is to PROVE an argument wrong...; they mainly assert their view, not prove hers wrong.... Stephen Lee, Grand Forks, ND —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.174.58.20 ( talk) 02:56, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
This section is filled with WP:SYNTH. The paragraph beginning with "Calling her claim further into doubt..." talks of "a woman with the same name, Sylvia Sammons" with no evidence this is the same Sammons. It is WP:OR to claim this is evidence of anything without a reference saying it is the same person. There is further original research in using that article to extrapolate what her age "must have been" and therefore deciding that it is proof of anything at all. I have removed it but the editor who added it, @ Eldanger25:, keeps readding it. References must explicitly state what is being claimed in the article and this reference does not do that. ThaddeusSholto ( talk) 12:22, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Hickory Wind. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:11, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Should the following paragraph (see below) be added after the second paragraph in the Authorship Controversy section? Robert McClenon ( talk) 05:30, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
A 1993 Orlando Sentinel article, published 9 years before Ms. Sammons's initial public claim of authorship in 2002, profiled Sylvia Sammons, a 42 year old blind female folk singer from North Carolina who local city officials were concerned was panhandling in a Mt. Dora, Florida, public park; the article described Ms. Sammons as having been "a professional singer and guitar player for 12 years on the coffeehouse circuit," or beginning in 1981 - 13 years after "Hickory Wind" was first released by The Byrds. [1]
Please answer Yes or No or the equivalent in the Survey with a brief statement. Please do not reply to other editors in the Survey. That is what the Discussion section is for.
To reiterate my argument here: The paragraph beginning with "A 1993 Orlando Sentinel article, published 9 years before Ms. Sammons's initial public claim of authorship in 2002" shows that this is SYNTH. You cannot use an article which precedes the 2002 claim to refute the 2002 claim. This is original research on the part of the editor who added it. References must explicitly state what is being claimed in the article and this reference does not do that because it cannot. It cannot refute what hadn't yet happened.
WP:SYNTH specifically "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source." This is exactly what is happening with this paragraph. The editor even adds their own conclusion with "or beginning in 1981 - 13 years after "Hickory Wind" was first released by The Byrds." This is not in the 1993 article because that article has nothing to do with Hickory Wind or its authorship.
It is also OR to even claim this is the same Sylvia Sammons. There is no way to know that as the 1993 article about Sylvia Sammons and the 2002 article about Sylvia Sammons describe people of different ages; Eldanger25 even admits on the article talk page that it is "circumstantial evidence that it is the same person" which is definitely WP:OR. Again, the policy states that an editor cannot combine material from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated. ThaddeusSholto ( talk) 12:29, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
The online version of the 1993 Orlando Sentinel article doesn't include any photographs of Sylvia Sammons, but I was able to find a print version with a photo of her at Newspapers.com. And I have to say there is a striking resemblance between the two women: 1993 Orlando article and the 2002 folklinks article. Here are two more articles from the Orland Sentinel with a photograph of Sammons from 1994, and 1996 (same photo from 1994, but close up). And apparently, she was granted the right to sing there in Florida, because there is a boatload of articles from various Florida newspapers from around that same time period with articles about her singing and scheduled performances.
Researching further back, an article about her in Highlands NC singing on balcony in 1998, 1990 on the balcony, here she is in 1990 woodworking in Highlands NC, and then further back to 1981 talking about her singing and how she lives in Greenville SC. And then further back to 1968 (with photo), from Greenville SC about her singing in Greenville, and being a former student at Furman, and how she had written some original songs (no mention of Hickory Wind). And then even further back to 1964, 1964 sophomore at Furman and 1963, showing she was a student at Furman University in Greenville SC. So if we are to believe the 2002 folklinks article which says: she was singing the song in Greenville, South Carolina, in 1963, she would have been a college student at the time, aged 18-19 years old, which tracks with this quote from the folklinks article - She must have been about 18, from L. Beatrice Hutzler.
Is it plausible that this is the same Sylvia Sammons from the 2002 folklinks article, my gut says yeah, more than likely it is, or in the alternative — it is a hell of a coincidence with two blind women named Sylvia Sammons, that look remarkably alike, with both having the same connections to the same geographical locations, both connected with woodworking, and both of them singing on a balcony. But, this is all original research and can not be used in the article.
And now getting back to WP:P&G, quite frankly, that entire section is UNDUE. Who says it is a "controversy", I don't see any independent sources making that claim, all I see is one source, and doing a search for "folklinks.com" on WP, shows it is only used one time in the Encyclopedia, in this article, so is it even a reliable source? And if folklinks is the only source making this claim, then it is not a significant viewpoint published by multiple reliable sources and that entire section should be removed as UNDUE. Isaidnoway (talk) 🍁 03:32, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
References