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The lead is bloated and rambling. Much is a re-hash of what appears in the main body. It needs to be much tighter. I submit the following alternative:
Henry II (5 March 1133 – 6 July 1189), also known as Henry Curtmantle, Henry FitzEmpress or Henry Plantagenet, was
King of England from October 1154 until his death,
Lord of Ireland (1171–1189),
Duke of Normandy (1150-1189),
Duke of Aquitaine (1152–89, in right of his wife),
Count of Anjou (1151–1189),
Count of Maine (1151–1189),
Count of Nantes (1158 – 1189). At various times, he exercised control over large parts of
Wales and the
Duchy of Brittany. Henry was born in
Le Mans,
France, the son of
Geoffrey Plantagenet, Count of Anjou and the
Empress Matilda, who was the daughter of King
Henry I of England. By the age of 14, Henry was actively involved by in his mother's
efforts to claim the throne of England. With his marriage in 1151 to the wealthy heiress,
Eleanor of Aquitaine, he got control of vast estates in south-west France. Henry and Eleanor had eight children. As they grew up, tensions over the future inheritance of the empire began to emerge. He led a military expedition to England in 1153 to further the claims of the Empress. By the terms of the
Treaty of Wallingford, he inherited the throne of England following the death of
Stephen, King of England a year later. Henry's legal changes are generally considered to have laid the basis for the
English Common Law, while his intervention in Brittany, Wales and Scotland shaped the development of their societies and governmental systems. By 1172, he controlled England, large parts of Wales, the eastern half of Ireland and the western half of France, an area that would later come to be called the
Angevin Empire. During his reign, the powers of the monarchy increased at the expense of the great barons. His achievements were impaired, however, by disputes with the Church, led by the
Archbishop of Canterbury,
Thomas Becket and by revolts within his own family. Henry suppressed rebellions by his sons in 1173 and 1183. Following a further rebellion in 1189, he died at
Chinon leaving the throne to his son
Richard. Henry's empire quickly collapsed during the reign of his youngest son
John.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 15:13, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
I'd agree with Ealdyth's comment. Hchc2009 ( talk) 17:22, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
You took it upon yourself to revert my contribution to the page on Henry II, commenting that there was "no evidence it was notable". What evidence do you have that it wasn't notable? It seems to me that a series of three full-length plays describing in well-researched detail an interesting period of English history is indeed notable. I doubt that you have seen or read the plays so while notability is a matter of opinion, not fact, I suggest your opinion is less valid than mine. If our aim was to remove all non-notable entries from Wikipedia we could spend a lifetime doing so! I'd rather spend my time adding information, not removing it. Mikedt10 ( talk) 14:41, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
The page on Cultural depictions of Henry II of England no longer redirects to this article but instead exists in its own right. Mikedt10 ( talk) 15:12, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
According to Henry II of England#Early reign (1150–1162), Henry's marriage to Eleanor "ran counter to feudal practice". What does this mean? Surtsicna ( talk) 12:53, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Certainly, the text is not very clear. It refers to the fact that Eleanor and Henry did not request permission for their marriage from the King of France, since they were both vassals. -- Ezi1234 ( talk) 22:41, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi there. These days I've translated into Russian an enwiki article Angevin kings of England. Immediately a was kicked around and the translation was nominated for deletion. The core of disagreement is: a) Angevin kings are simply another name for Plantagenets and as such do not deserve separate article; b) Angevin kings of England are a separate historical entity and the article is valid.
In this respect I would like to know the basis of calling Henry II of England a Plantagenet keeping in mind that the Angevin kings of England reads (NB: the article is marked as Good)
Historians who? use the period of Prince Louis's invasion to mark the end of the Angevin period and the beginning of the Plantagenet dynasty. citation needed
and
Richard of York adopted "Plantagenet" as a family name for himself and his descendants during the 15th century. Plantegenest
So: where actually had Angevins ended and Plantagenets started, if ever? Pls advise. From Russia with love. Ashec ( talk) 12:55, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
Third paragraph of the lead begins:
Earlier in the lead, we read,
So, Henry II's father was not a king. And therefore not king of England. He was Geoffrey Plantagenet, Count of Anjou.
The statement about Henry's co-rulership, therefore, in my opinion, needs re-wording to explain exactly what it means. Was Henry named co-ruler of Anjou or co-ruler (co-king) of England in Matilda's place (for whom, according to the text above, Henry II, her son, had agreed "a peace treaty [with Stephen of Blois] after Henry[II]'s military expedition to England in 1153, and Henry inherited the kingdom on Stephen's death a year later") and, if so, with whom as the other co-monarch of England?
Was this "inheritance" the co-rulership spoken of later or was it co-rulership of Anjou, while Henry [II] inherited full title as king of England upon Stephen's death? Hedles ( talk) 01:36, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
I think you are misunderstanding this. Henry, son of Geoffrey V, inherited the throne of England from his uncle Stephen on Stephen's death after the Treaty of Westminster(?) established that he (Henry, son of Geoffrey V) was the heir to the throne of England, meaning that he became Henry II of England. The first statement you mention refers not to Henry II but his son with Eleanor of Aquitaine, Henry the Young King. In 1170 Henry II made his son (Henry the Young) co-ruler (along with Henry II himself) of England, Normandy, Anjou and Maine. This is the "co-rulership" referred to in the article. It would be simpler if Henry the Young was just known as "Henry III", but unfortunately he died before his father, so never ruled on his own. 31.50.147.32 ( talk) 19:18, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
Mainstream Europeans regarded the Irish as relatively barbarous and backward.[267]
Hi. Help:Introduction to the Manual of Style/linking quiz in "Donnchadh, Earl of Carrick" example, it says 'King', with upper-case K, is part of the title "King Henry II of England": it is awkward to see part of the title black and part of it blue. So I have searched all "King" words and found three. (King) David I of Scotland in Early years (1133–1149) section. (King) Malcolm of Scotland in "Reconstruction of royal government" section. (King) William of Scotland in Great Revolt (1173–1174) section. Jeournat ( talk) 21:12, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
Why is he called Curtmantle? DuncanHill ( talk) 14:13, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
As his reign is linked to the concept of ' Time immemorial perhaps a mention here? Jackiespeel ( talk) 18:12, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
Hello @ Ealdgyth:. OK, "my" source is not reliable. But since this information is worth knowing for any visitor to the fortress (plaque not very visible, nor signposted), I leave it to you to find a source in English that complies with WP:RS. (For your information, a low quality photo can be found on Wikimedia Commons ; the name of the file is : Chateau de Chinon. Site chapelle St Melaine.✝Henry II Plantagenet.jpg). Boncoincoin Boncoincoin ( talk) 16:18, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Henry II of England article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 365 days |
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Henry II of England is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on August 8, 2023. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This
level-4 vital article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The lead is bloated and rambling. Much is a re-hash of what appears in the main body. It needs to be much tighter. I submit the following alternative:
Henry II (5 March 1133 – 6 July 1189), also known as Henry Curtmantle, Henry FitzEmpress or Henry Plantagenet, was
King of England from October 1154 until his death,
Lord of Ireland (1171–1189),
Duke of Normandy (1150-1189),
Duke of Aquitaine (1152–89, in right of his wife),
Count of Anjou (1151–1189),
Count of Maine (1151–1189),
Count of Nantes (1158 – 1189). At various times, he exercised control over large parts of
Wales and the
Duchy of Brittany. Henry was born in
Le Mans,
France, the son of
Geoffrey Plantagenet, Count of Anjou and the
Empress Matilda, who was the daughter of King
Henry I of England. By the age of 14, Henry was actively involved by in his mother's
efforts to claim the throne of England. With his marriage in 1151 to the wealthy heiress,
Eleanor of Aquitaine, he got control of vast estates in south-west France. Henry and Eleanor had eight children. As they grew up, tensions over the future inheritance of the empire began to emerge. He led a military expedition to England in 1153 to further the claims of the Empress. By the terms of the
Treaty of Wallingford, he inherited the throne of England following the death of
Stephen, King of England a year later. Henry's legal changes are generally considered to have laid the basis for the
English Common Law, while his intervention in Brittany, Wales and Scotland shaped the development of their societies and governmental systems. By 1172, he controlled England, large parts of Wales, the eastern half of Ireland and the western half of France, an area that would later come to be called the
Angevin Empire. During his reign, the powers of the monarchy increased at the expense of the great barons. His achievements were impaired, however, by disputes with the Church, led by the
Archbishop of Canterbury,
Thomas Becket and by revolts within his own family. Henry suppressed rebellions by his sons in 1173 and 1183. Following a further rebellion in 1189, he died at
Chinon leaving the throne to his son
Richard. Henry's empire quickly collapsed during the reign of his youngest son
John.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 15:13, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
I'd agree with Ealdyth's comment. Hchc2009 ( talk) 17:22, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
You took it upon yourself to revert my contribution to the page on Henry II, commenting that there was "no evidence it was notable". What evidence do you have that it wasn't notable? It seems to me that a series of three full-length plays describing in well-researched detail an interesting period of English history is indeed notable. I doubt that you have seen or read the plays so while notability is a matter of opinion, not fact, I suggest your opinion is less valid than mine. If our aim was to remove all non-notable entries from Wikipedia we could spend a lifetime doing so! I'd rather spend my time adding information, not removing it. Mikedt10 ( talk) 14:41, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
The page on Cultural depictions of Henry II of England no longer redirects to this article but instead exists in its own right. Mikedt10 ( talk) 15:12, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
According to Henry II of England#Early reign (1150–1162), Henry's marriage to Eleanor "ran counter to feudal practice". What does this mean? Surtsicna ( talk) 12:53, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Certainly, the text is not very clear. It refers to the fact that Eleanor and Henry did not request permission for their marriage from the King of France, since they were both vassals. -- Ezi1234 ( talk) 22:41, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi there. These days I've translated into Russian an enwiki article Angevin kings of England. Immediately a was kicked around and the translation was nominated for deletion. The core of disagreement is: a) Angevin kings are simply another name for Plantagenets and as such do not deserve separate article; b) Angevin kings of England are a separate historical entity and the article is valid.
In this respect I would like to know the basis of calling Henry II of England a Plantagenet keeping in mind that the Angevin kings of England reads (NB: the article is marked as Good)
Historians who? use the period of Prince Louis's invasion to mark the end of the Angevin period and the beginning of the Plantagenet dynasty. citation needed
and
Richard of York adopted "Plantagenet" as a family name for himself and his descendants during the 15th century. Plantegenest
So: where actually had Angevins ended and Plantagenets started, if ever? Pls advise. From Russia with love. Ashec ( talk) 12:55, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
Third paragraph of the lead begins:
Earlier in the lead, we read,
So, Henry II's father was not a king. And therefore not king of England. He was Geoffrey Plantagenet, Count of Anjou.
The statement about Henry's co-rulership, therefore, in my opinion, needs re-wording to explain exactly what it means. Was Henry named co-ruler of Anjou or co-ruler (co-king) of England in Matilda's place (for whom, according to the text above, Henry II, her son, had agreed "a peace treaty [with Stephen of Blois] after Henry[II]'s military expedition to England in 1153, and Henry inherited the kingdom on Stephen's death a year later") and, if so, with whom as the other co-monarch of England?
Was this "inheritance" the co-rulership spoken of later or was it co-rulership of Anjou, while Henry [II] inherited full title as king of England upon Stephen's death? Hedles ( talk) 01:36, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
I think you are misunderstanding this. Henry, son of Geoffrey V, inherited the throne of England from his uncle Stephen on Stephen's death after the Treaty of Westminster(?) established that he (Henry, son of Geoffrey V) was the heir to the throne of England, meaning that he became Henry II of England. The first statement you mention refers not to Henry II but his son with Eleanor of Aquitaine, Henry the Young King. In 1170 Henry II made his son (Henry the Young) co-ruler (along with Henry II himself) of England, Normandy, Anjou and Maine. This is the "co-rulership" referred to in the article. It would be simpler if Henry the Young was just known as "Henry III", but unfortunately he died before his father, so never ruled on his own. 31.50.147.32 ( talk) 19:18, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
Mainstream Europeans regarded the Irish as relatively barbarous and backward.[267]
Hi. Help:Introduction to the Manual of Style/linking quiz in "Donnchadh, Earl of Carrick" example, it says 'King', with upper-case K, is part of the title "King Henry II of England": it is awkward to see part of the title black and part of it blue. So I have searched all "King" words and found three. (King) David I of Scotland in Early years (1133–1149) section. (King) Malcolm of Scotland in "Reconstruction of royal government" section. (King) William of Scotland in Great Revolt (1173–1174) section. Jeournat ( talk) 21:12, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
Why is he called Curtmantle? DuncanHill ( talk) 14:13, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
As his reign is linked to the concept of ' Time immemorial perhaps a mention here? Jackiespeel ( talk) 18:12, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
Hello @ Ealdgyth:. OK, "my" source is not reliable. But since this information is worth knowing for any visitor to the fortress (plaque not very visible, nor signposted), I leave it to you to find a source in English that complies with WP:RS. (For your information, a low quality photo can be found on Wikimedia Commons ; the name of the file is : Chateau de Chinon. Site chapelle St Melaine.✝Henry II Plantagenet.jpg). Boncoincoin Boncoincoin ( talk) 16:18, 3 May 2023 (UTC)