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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 August 2018 and 4 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Chloe24681234.
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Hi, everyone. We seem to be having an edit war here on the subject of Passover 2019. Apparently, the proponents of these edits wish to include it as an example of how calendar drift can push Passover to the second full moon after the equinox rather than the first. So ...
I propose we answer these questions here and come to a resolution, and then decide where (if anywhere) this edit should go.
Until we solve this here, I propose to revert any attempt to put the edit back in the article. Note that I am not taking sides—I only want to settle this without further edit warring.
StevenJ81 (
talk) 18:53, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
I hope this is where I can ask my question. It seems to me that Passover in 2016 fell on the second full moon after the equinox. The Equinox was Sun. Mar. 20. The following full moon was March 23. The next one was April 22, which was the date of Passover. So here's my question. The Jehovah's Witnesses claim to use the Hebrew calendar to determine Nisan 14, so that they can celebrate that. This year (2016) they celebrated on March 23. Did any Jews celebrate on Mar 23? I'm a bit overwhelmed by the article. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 21:50, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Anyone is welcome to insert the information into the article, I just couldn't figure out how to do it best. Turkey uses the same calendar used in the Western world and the names of the months in Turkish (English in paranthesis) are -starting with the first month in the Hebrew calendar: Nisan (April), Mayıs (May), Haziran (June), Temmuz (July), Ağustos (August), Eylül (September), Ekim (October), Kasım (November), Aralık (December), Ocak (January), Şubat (February), Mart (March). Best. -- Stultiwikia text me 12:10, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
"At higher latitudes in summer, when the sun does not sink below the horizon, a day is counted from midday to midday, and in the winter, when the sun does not rise above the horizon, from midnight to midnight."
Is that correct? Shouldn't it be the other way around? That is, when the sun is up all day, shouldn't the new day start when its at its *lowest* point, i.e., "midnight", and likewise when it's below the horizon all day, at midday? Like, the day before that prolonged daylight would begin at sunset, when the sun briefly drops below the horizon. Noon would only be 12 hours later than that, so if you're defining the day as midday to midday, then you'd have a 12-hour day when it switches from sunset to midday reckoning, whereas 24 hours after that last sunset would be the sun at its lowest point, just skimming the horizon XinaNicole ( talk) 17:16, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
The "History" section is vague about when the Hebrew calendar actually came into use. Since the calendar is mentioned in the Tanakh, we can imply that it was devised prior to about 450 BC, but there is no specific mention about when it was first known to be used. — Loadmaster ( talk) 22:46, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
The question "when did the Jewish calendar first come into use" is not a well-posed question so it can't have a precise answer. Does it require a calendar with the same 19-year cycle, or does ad hoc insertion of leap-months count? Does it require month lengths defined by rules as now, or does observation of the moon count? If it means the current algorithmic calendar based on a specific epoch, a specific length for the mean synodic month, and a particular set of rules for applying these, it can't be proved that the calendar was used before the Middle Ages. Some aspects of it appeared earlier though. So the question is not so clear-cut and a useful answer is necessarily long. McKay ( talk) 23:57, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm a little confused. At this point, what exactly would Loadmaster like to add, and what exactly is Debresser willing to see added. StevenJ81 ( talk) 18:27, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
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Using the Pessah formula by Gauß and Eastern formula by Lichtenberg i constructed this formula to get the day of 1 Tischri. X is the number of the hebrewan year:
A = (12X + 5) MOD 19
R = (X + 3) MOD 4
P = 20707440 + 765433A + 123120R - 1565X
Q = P DIV 492480
V = P MOD 492480
W = (Q + 3X + 5R + 6) MOD 7
K = (X + 39) DIV 100
S = (3K + 1) DIV 4 - 30
Y = 0
W:
0 ?(A>11 & V>442110) -> Y=1
1 ?(A>6 & V>311675) -> Y=2
2 Y=1
4 Y=1
6 Y=1<br
M = Q + S + Y - 31
M. Sep / (M - 30). Oct
--
87.144.190.66 (
talk) 02:12, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
(W + Y) MOD 7 Weekday [0=Mo]
(X - 3761) Jahr gregorian.
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The Samaritans operate a similar version of the calendar, but out of sync with the mainstream Rabbinic Jewish Calendar. For example they celebrate Pesach on "Nissan 15-22" like Jews, but in practice this works out to be a few weeks later or earlier. I think this should be added to the Other Practices section. 62.190.148.115 ( talk) 14:59, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
It would be useful to add a discussion of how the year is written. See http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/Hebrew_numerals
Otherwise it is somewhat obscure why 5777 is written תשע״ז.
Thank you very much for your consideration
Michaelaoash ( talk) 07:24, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
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Could you please update this page a bit in the Months section of the Components section of this article by saying "In leap years (Such as 5779)". Please. 2602:304:5D47:EC19:4D84:3C29:4961:DBB4 ( talk) 19:42, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
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The Hebrew calendar month counting is not as simple and straight forward as the month table suggests as each month has two numbers associated with it.
While the number column on the page is accurate for the Hebrew sacred calendar (best to my knowledge), it does not contain the numbers for the Hebrew civil Calendar.
I have looked at 3 websites to verify my information and not a single one, including one that is maintained by a Jewish practitioner, has the both month numbers.
I have copy and pasted below the table that you do have on the page and have added a second number column and titled the number columns in respect to their civil or sacred standing.
This information should be verified with a Rabbi to ensure that I do not have the Civil and Sacred column titles reversed. Sometimes I get things wrong even when I double triple and quadruple check them. I really hate when that happens!
Civil | Sacred | ||
No. | No. | Hebrew months | Length |
7 | 1 | Nisan | 30 |
8 | 2 | Iyar | 29 |
9 | 3 | Sivan | 30 |
10 | 4 | Tammuz | 29 |
11 | 5 | Av | 30 |
12 | 6 | Elul | 29 |
1 | 7 | Tishrei | 30 |
2 | 8 | Marcheshvan (or Cheshvan) | 29/30 |
3 | 9 | Kislev | 30/29 |
4 | 10 | Tevet | 29 |
5 | 11 | Shevat | 30 |
6 | 12 | Adar | 29 |
Due to the lack of complete and verifiable information on the internet, people are confused on just how the Hebrew/Jewish calendar actually works. I don't think having both sets of numbers will make it less confusing, but it will ensure that they have the complete information regarding the calendar and the way that the months are numbered for whatever research they may be conducting.
Thanks for making the update! Source: Bottom of Page 850 of the Holy Bible Authorized King James Version PTL Partner Edition Thomas Nelson Publishers Copyright 1975 page 850 69.218.72.2 ( talk) 03:44, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
Roman calendar used AUC ab urbe condita before Jesus Christ and BC/AD Anno Domini. Hebrew calendar (HC). 73.85.207.74 ( talk) 21:44, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
I think this article is very informative and helpful to people who are trying to learn more about the Hebrew Calendar. I will add a subsection called Observance in Auschwitz under the Modern calendar section. I found an interesting article called Tracking Jewish Time in Auschwitz, which appeared in a peer-reviewed journal and is written by Alan Rosen, who has a Ph.D. in literature and religion from Boston University. I will add information about the dangers of having a calendar while in Auschwitz and the importance of women making the only known surviving calendars. If anyone wants to comment on these changes, please let me know on this Talk Page or on my Talk Page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chloe24681234 ( talk • contribs) 18:25, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
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In the section Implications for Jewish Ritual, don't forget to add AM 5776, the 19th year of the cycle, and Gregorian year 2016 CE. Please. 2601:401:C400:357:985:79B4:8920:1D07 ( talk) 23:59, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
For a school project I tried implementing all the date rules as described in the article in JavaScript, but my results did not match the moladot times for the civil year given. I checked and re-checked, and they seem to be in error. I’ve replaced the moladot times for the civil year with moladot times for the ecclesiastical year (which I think may be more useful anyway) computed directly according to the rules in the article; these results seem to match those given by molad sites such as Chabad.org and TorahCalc.com. Hope I didn’t break anything. PowerPCG5 ( talk) 06:11, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
"Molad Nisan 5780 = 10:14 Tuesday, 24 March 2020"
Next year Nisan begins on Thursday, 26 March. Please explain how your figure gives the correct starting date. If you can't, please put the article back the way it was. Once again, thanks and happy editing!
2.27.36.48 (
talk) 13:55, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
I would just like to make sure that something is clear here. @ User:PowerPCG5 suggested above that the molad times for the ecclesiastical year may be more useful than the molad times for the civil year. I'd just like to remind everyone that in the current, calculated version of the calendar, the only molad time that actually has an impact in practice is the molad time for Tishri (i.e., civil year). Every other month start is simply counted off from the date of 1 Tishri so calculated at intervals of 30 or 29 days. What am I missing here? StevenJ81 ( talk) 14:13, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Folks, I don't know exactly what it going on here but from a distance it looks like a battle of povs. You really need to restrict yourselves to material that appears in published reliable sources. Trivial calculations are allowed (see WP:CALC) but calculations as complex as these that you did yourselves are definitely not allowed in the article. It's hard to believe you can't find a reliable source for this information. McKay ( talk) 06:54, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
This short section is problematic to say the least and it makes no mention of the debate around the opinion that is expressed well by Rachel Elior that a solar calendar of 364 days was used up to the Seleucid period when it was replaced by a Greek lunar calendar on the orders of Antiochus IV. The biblical evidence is more in congruence with a solar calendar starting in the Spring with what later came to be known as Nissan. Alan3278 ( talk) 21:35, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
The plural of יאָרצײַט is יאָרצײַטן, so the transcription should be changed to yahrzeitn (to remain close to the Yiddish form) or maybe yahrzeiten (which is closer to the modern German plural). -- 84.167.153.120 ( talk) 12:20, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
There is no reason not to name the scholar whose position this article informs us about. The reference is an article by Solomon Gandz, so I assume (being to read nothing more than a preview page) it is him and not someone quoted in his article. As the article is protected, I cannot change this myself. -- 84.167.153.120 ( talk) 12:44, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
That is Avraham b. Pinchas, according to the reference (whose author is written Tsedaka and not Tzedaka, by the way), and there is no reason not to name him. -- 84.167.153.120 ( talk) 13:31, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
In the wake of a edit war between two users over calendar drift calculations, I went and checked the calculations on both pages. I've confirmed the assertions using exact calculations:
I'm not sure what the claim about "Hebrew Calendar Science and Myths" being an index page is about, but it's straightforward to find the claims in "The Accuracy of the Hebrew Calendar" and "The Relative Rate of the Hebrew Calendar" if you scroll down. Arcorann ( talk) 11:55, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
I'm sure that this
makes sense to some readers but for the rest of us, would someone please explain the meaning of ? -- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 09:16, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
The Julian and Gregorian calendars are part of the category Calendars. Why isn't this calendar part of the category Calendars? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.39.132.240 ( talk) 04:44, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
First off, as it has been present for seven years it should not have been removed without a consensus on the talk page first. A source was added but AstroLynx removed it again. Wikipedia pages can be copied for future use, so its removal also means that those without computers who have not yet taken a copy will not be able to work out e.g. the date of their Yahrzeit. External sites can be offensive - yesterday I visited one of the cited websites AstroLynx referred to and it repeatedly flashed me this message:
Hurry, Ramadan's almost over! ZAKAT Give in the name of Allah. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.119.149 ( talk • contribs)
I note that AstroLynx only pinged editors who supported his view - a clear breach of WP:CANVASS. The "Original research" argument is dead in the water - I have checked the text of the section against Gauss' paper and can confirm that all the data is lifted from it. I wouldn't describe Gauss' contributions to science as "a mud pie". 78.150.119.149 ( talk) 13:05, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
References
The above discussion was initiated and fueled by IP socks of community-banned Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Vote (X) for Change. I just blocked the most recent incarnation, 78.149.213.149, after they repeatedly tried to modify the article. If someone would like to delete or archive the discussion, that would be in the spirit of Wikipedia:Banned means banned. Favonian ( talk) 13:10, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
When did the last 19 year cycle begin in the Hebrew calendar? 90.241.152.219 ( talk) 12:17, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
I have always had trouble with the statement that four month are named in the Bible (Aviv, Ziv, Ethanim and Bul). My problem with that statement is that the words "Aviv" and "Ethanim" are preceded in those verses by the definite article (he hayedia), indicating that those are adjectives, not nouns like names of months should be. Debresser ( talk) 18:09, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Could someone with edit access please add the shwa to תִּשׁרִי Tishri in the table under History. -- 188.28.96.91 ( talk) 12:16, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
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Please change "mounted up" to "amounted", as the current wording isn't normal English. 123.51.107.94 ( talk) 06:41, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Throughout this article there seems to be a lot of unsourced material after years of discussion about it. From my reading of the discussion there seems to be a consensus of leaving in much of the unsourced material, because it is factually true. The problem is thats not how wikipedia works. EVERYTHING in this or any article needs to be sourced from a reliable secondary source, and not based on either personal knowledge or reasonable conclusions based on reliable sources. Can we get some references? If not, every unsourced thing needs to be deleted. RevDan ( talk) 22:04, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
In the section about leap months it says: “It may be noted that in the Bible the name of the first month, Aviv, literally means "spring". Thus, if Adar was over and spring had not yet arrived, an additional month was observed.” To my understanding this is untrue, while in modern Hebrew ’aviv is the name of spring, it originally meant ripening (or more accurately, the stage before ripening, when the plant was still green) and the meaning of spring is much later, long after the bible was written, in which the month of ’aviv is mentioned. This is inline with the section before it, which speaks about the ripeness of barley. 2A00:A040:1DD:7402:9472:96C9:84ED:F4B3 ( talk) 14:50, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
* The Jewish Passover usually falls on the first full moon after the Northern Hemisphere vernal equinox, [1] although occasionally (currently three times every 19 years citation needed) it will occur on the second full moon. [2]
References
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"Calculation of the Samaritan calendar has historically been a secret reserved to the priestly family alone, and it is based upon the conjunction of the sun and the moon."
Sources: #1 Crown, Alan. "The Samaritans". Page 700. 1989. #2 Mills, John. "Three Months Residence at Nablus, and an Account of the Modern Samaritans". Page 240. 1864. SaturnsThorn ( talk) 16:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. PianoDan ( talk) 20:27, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
@
Debresser: After your latest edit, the article reads: Each calendar year begins with
Rosh Hashanah, so adjusting the length of the year is equivalent to moving the date of Rosh Hashanah.
That still doesn't make sense. Should it read Each Hebrew calendar year begins with
Rosh Hashanah, so adjusting the length of the year is equivalent to moving the Gregorian calendar date of Rosh Hashanah.
Would that help?
𝕁𝕄𝔽 (
talk) 00:32, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
Each Hebrew calendar year begins with Rosh Hashanah, so adjusting the length of the year is equivalent to moving the day on which the next Rosh Hashanah falls.Nevertheless I don't think this section has yet reached peak clarity, so I may want to change the sentence more dramatically later. Ar2332 ( talk) 10:30, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Each calendar year begins with Rosh Hashanah, so adjusting the length of the year is equivalent to moving the Gregorian date of Rosh Hashanah.My original "Each Hebrew calendar year begins ..." was a redundant qualification given the article topic, so I am happy to drop that aspect. I hope we can agree that this is a reasonable compromise. -- 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 14:13, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
I am considering deleting the following paragragh:
As I see it, it says basically nothing of substance that's non-obvious. It's also very likely wrong, in that the molad/chalakim system is effectively a clock, and shaot zemaniot were apparently used as a crude clock in ancient times. Does anyone disagree and see a reason to keep the paragraph or part of it? Ar2332 ( talk) 10:38, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
This paragraph seems incorrect. There very much is a clock, just that it doesn't usually concern itself with less than an hour, although that does happen, e.g. the molad time. Debresser ( talk) 22:58, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
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RAmerica011 ( talk) 07:35, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
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Is anyone going to fix the error with the forth day in the weeks section of the article. 78.147.168.178 ( talk) 06:05, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
I see that the Four Gates section once again claims that the "four gates" refer to the four different categories of years: this year a leap followed by two regular years, a regular year followed by a leap year followed by a regular year, etc. That is, the vertical columns in the chart. There is even at least one reference that would seem to support that. Nevertheless, this is a mistake. The "four" in Four Gates refers to the four different possible days for Rosh Hashanah. We know this because the concept of ד' שערים, Four Gates, originates in the writings of the Gaonim, and that is how they referred to them. For several examples, see Sacha Stern's book *The Jewish Calendar Controversy*. See Aharon ben Meir's first letter, and especially p. 159 where he quotes the Sefer Hamoadim, "the traditions of the 1st Gate are 491, 408, and 204; the traditions of the 2nd Gate are 695 and 204; the traditions of the 3rd Gate are six hours and 204; and the traditions of the 4th Gate are 491, 204 and 589..." Those correspond on the chart to the chalakim numbers for Shabbos, Thursday, Tuesday, and Monday.
I've removed a couple of words in the document that make that mistake, and a comment on one of references which is "Original Research" and mistaken too. MikeR613 ( talk) 19:08, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
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The passover date is on the 14th day at even (sunset) not the 15 day as stated herein. The 14th starts at sunset, Saying the passover is on the 14th day at even just means it starts right at the beginning of the day, not the end of the day which would be going int thew 15th. Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. 2607:FEA8:4D41:8800:E8D4:8159:8BAB:6208 ( talk) 21:51, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
I understand what the previous editor meant to say. But he mixed up two things: the time of the Passover lamb offering and the festival of Passover. The lamb offering is indeed on the 14th of Nisan towards the evening, while the festive day of Passover starts only at night, which is already the 15th of Nisan. I hope this answers their concern. In any case, the article is correct as it stands and no edits need to be made. Debresser ( talk) 23:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
The article incorrectly states that the Hebrew calendar begins with creation. In fact it begins at the end of “day 6” with the creation of man. This is an important distinction. CMCoel ( talk) 08:39, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
The reference junction of the Sun and the Moon (Molad 1) is considered to be at 5 hours and 204 halakim, or 11:11:20 p.m., on the evening of Sunday, 6 October 3761 BCE. [1] According to rabbinic reckoning, this moment was not Creation, but about one year "before" Creation, with the new moon of its first month (Tishrei) called molad tohu (the mean new moon of chaos or nothing). It is about one year before the traditional Jewish date of Creation on 25 Elul AM 1, [a] based upon the Seder Olam Rabbah. [b] Thus, adding 3760 before Rosh Hashanah or 3761 after to a Julian calendar year number starting from 1 CE will yield the Hebrew year. For earlier years there may be a discrepancy; see Missing years (Jewish calendar).
References
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Hebrew calendar is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Concerning WP:ERA: The date styling in this article uses the era terminology of BCE/CE, rather than BC/AD, except for a brief parallel mention in the section on Anno Mundi. Discussions of this were held previously here and here, the later of which dates to February 2013. Because there is consensus on this topic, editors should not unilaterally change this convention on the page. Because consensus can change, editors are welcome to address the topic here on the talk page if they choose. |
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 August 2018 and 4 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Chloe24681234.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 23:15, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Hi, everyone. We seem to be having an edit war here on the subject of Passover 2019. Apparently, the proponents of these edits wish to include it as an example of how calendar drift can push Passover to the second full moon after the equinox rather than the first. So ...
I propose we answer these questions here and come to a resolution, and then decide where (if anywhere) this edit should go.
Until we solve this here, I propose to revert any attempt to put the edit back in the article. Note that I am not taking sides—I only want to settle this without further edit warring.
StevenJ81 (
talk) 18:53, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
I hope this is where I can ask my question. It seems to me that Passover in 2016 fell on the second full moon after the equinox. The Equinox was Sun. Mar. 20. The following full moon was March 23. The next one was April 22, which was the date of Passover. So here's my question. The Jehovah's Witnesses claim to use the Hebrew calendar to determine Nisan 14, so that they can celebrate that. This year (2016) they celebrated on March 23. Did any Jews celebrate on Mar 23? I'm a bit overwhelmed by the article. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 21:50, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Anyone is welcome to insert the information into the article, I just couldn't figure out how to do it best. Turkey uses the same calendar used in the Western world and the names of the months in Turkish (English in paranthesis) are -starting with the first month in the Hebrew calendar: Nisan (April), Mayıs (May), Haziran (June), Temmuz (July), Ağustos (August), Eylül (September), Ekim (October), Kasım (November), Aralık (December), Ocak (January), Şubat (February), Mart (March). Best. -- Stultiwikia text me 12:10, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
"At higher latitudes in summer, when the sun does not sink below the horizon, a day is counted from midday to midday, and in the winter, when the sun does not rise above the horizon, from midnight to midnight."
Is that correct? Shouldn't it be the other way around? That is, when the sun is up all day, shouldn't the new day start when its at its *lowest* point, i.e., "midnight", and likewise when it's below the horizon all day, at midday? Like, the day before that prolonged daylight would begin at sunset, when the sun briefly drops below the horizon. Noon would only be 12 hours later than that, so if you're defining the day as midday to midday, then you'd have a 12-hour day when it switches from sunset to midday reckoning, whereas 24 hours after that last sunset would be the sun at its lowest point, just skimming the horizon XinaNicole ( talk) 17:16, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
The "History" section is vague about when the Hebrew calendar actually came into use. Since the calendar is mentioned in the Tanakh, we can imply that it was devised prior to about 450 BC, but there is no specific mention about when it was first known to be used. — Loadmaster ( talk) 22:46, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
The question "when did the Jewish calendar first come into use" is not a well-posed question so it can't have a precise answer. Does it require a calendar with the same 19-year cycle, or does ad hoc insertion of leap-months count? Does it require month lengths defined by rules as now, or does observation of the moon count? If it means the current algorithmic calendar based on a specific epoch, a specific length for the mean synodic month, and a particular set of rules for applying these, it can't be proved that the calendar was used before the Middle Ages. Some aspects of it appeared earlier though. So the question is not so clear-cut and a useful answer is necessarily long. McKay ( talk) 23:57, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm a little confused. At this point, what exactly would Loadmaster like to add, and what exactly is Debresser willing to see added. StevenJ81 ( talk) 18:27, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
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Using the Pessah formula by Gauß and Eastern formula by Lichtenberg i constructed this formula to get the day of 1 Tischri. X is the number of the hebrewan year:
A = (12X + 5) MOD 19
R = (X + 3) MOD 4
P = 20707440 + 765433A + 123120R - 1565X
Q = P DIV 492480
V = P MOD 492480
W = (Q + 3X + 5R + 6) MOD 7
K = (X + 39) DIV 100
S = (3K + 1) DIV 4 - 30
Y = 0
W:
0 ?(A>11 & V>442110) -> Y=1
1 ?(A>6 & V>311675) -> Y=2
2 Y=1
4 Y=1
6 Y=1<br
M = Q + S + Y - 31
M. Sep / (M - 30). Oct
--
87.144.190.66 (
talk) 02:12, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
(W + Y) MOD 7 Weekday [0=Mo]
(X - 3761) Jahr gregorian.
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The Samaritans operate a similar version of the calendar, but out of sync with the mainstream Rabbinic Jewish Calendar. For example they celebrate Pesach on "Nissan 15-22" like Jews, but in practice this works out to be a few weeks later or earlier. I think this should be added to the Other Practices section. 62.190.148.115 ( talk) 14:59, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
It would be useful to add a discussion of how the year is written. See http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/Hebrew_numerals
Otherwise it is somewhat obscure why 5777 is written תשע״ז.
Thank you very much for your consideration
Michaelaoash ( talk) 07:24, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
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Could you please update this page a bit in the Months section of the Components section of this article by saying "In leap years (Such as 5779)". Please. 2602:304:5D47:EC19:4D84:3C29:4961:DBB4 ( talk) 19:42, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
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The Hebrew calendar month counting is not as simple and straight forward as the month table suggests as each month has two numbers associated with it.
While the number column on the page is accurate for the Hebrew sacred calendar (best to my knowledge), it does not contain the numbers for the Hebrew civil Calendar.
I have looked at 3 websites to verify my information and not a single one, including one that is maintained by a Jewish practitioner, has the both month numbers.
I have copy and pasted below the table that you do have on the page and have added a second number column and titled the number columns in respect to their civil or sacred standing.
This information should be verified with a Rabbi to ensure that I do not have the Civil and Sacred column titles reversed. Sometimes I get things wrong even when I double triple and quadruple check them. I really hate when that happens!
Civil | Sacred | ||
No. | No. | Hebrew months | Length |
7 | 1 | Nisan | 30 |
8 | 2 | Iyar | 29 |
9 | 3 | Sivan | 30 |
10 | 4 | Tammuz | 29 |
11 | 5 | Av | 30 |
12 | 6 | Elul | 29 |
1 | 7 | Tishrei | 30 |
2 | 8 | Marcheshvan (or Cheshvan) | 29/30 |
3 | 9 | Kislev | 30/29 |
4 | 10 | Tevet | 29 |
5 | 11 | Shevat | 30 |
6 | 12 | Adar | 29 |
Due to the lack of complete and verifiable information on the internet, people are confused on just how the Hebrew/Jewish calendar actually works. I don't think having both sets of numbers will make it less confusing, but it will ensure that they have the complete information regarding the calendar and the way that the months are numbered for whatever research they may be conducting.
Thanks for making the update! Source: Bottom of Page 850 of the Holy Bible Authorized King James Version PTL Partner Edition Thomas Nelson Publishers Copyright 1975 page 850 69.218.72.2 ( talk) 03:44, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
Roman calendar used AUC ab urbe condita before Jesus Christ and BC/AD Anno Domini. Hebrew calendar (HC). 73.85.207.74 ( talk) 21:44, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
I think this article is very informative and helpful to people who are trying to learn more about the Hebrew Calendar. I will add a subsection called Observance in Auschwitz under the Modern calendar section. I found an interesting article called Tracking Jewish Time in Auschwitz, which appeared in a peer-reviewed journal and is written by Alan Rosen, who has a Ph.D. in literature and religion from Boston University. I will add information about the dangers of having a calendar while in Auschwitz and the importance of women making the only known surviving calendars. If anyone wants to comment on these changes, please let me know on this Talk Page or on my Talk Page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chloe24681234 ( talk • contribs) 18:25, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
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In the section Implications for Jewish Ritual, don't forget to add AM 5776, the 19th year of the cycle, and Gregorian year 2016 CE. Please. 2601:401:C400:357:985:79B4:8920:1D07 ( talk) 23:59, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
For a school project I tried implementing all the date rules as described in the article in JavaScript, but my results did not match the moladot times for the civil year given. I checked and re-checked, and they seem to be in error. I’ve replaced the moladot times for the civil year with moladot times for the ecclesiastical year (which I think may be more useful anyway) computed directly according to the rules in the article; these results seem to match those given by molad sites such as Chabad.org and TorahCalc.com. Hope I didn’t break anything. PowerPCG5 ( talk) 06:11, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
"Molad Nisan 5780 = 10:14 Tuesday, 24 March 2020"
Next year Nisan begins on Thursday, 26 March. Please explain how your figure gives the correct starting date. If you can't, please put the article back the way it was. Once again, thanks and happy editing!
2.27.36.48 (
talk) 13:55, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
I would just like to make sure that something is clear here. @ User:PowerPCG5 suggested above that the molad times for the ecclesiastical year may be more useful than the molad times for the civil year. I'd just like to remind everyone that in the current, calculated version of the calendar, the only molad time that actually has an impact in practice is the molad time for Tishri (i.e., civil year). Every other month start is simply counted off from the date of 1 Tishri so calculated at intervals of 30 or 29 days. What am I missing here? StevenJ81 ( talk) 14:13, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Folks, I don't know exactly what it going on here but from a distance it looks like a battle of povs. You really need to restrict yourselves to material that appears in published reliable sources. Trivial calculations are allowed (see WP:CALC) but calculations as complex as these that you did yourselves are definitely not allowed in the article. It's hard to believe you can't find a reliable source for this information. McKay ( talk) 06:54, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
This short section is problematic to say the least and it makes no mention of the debate around the opinion that is expressed well by Rachel Elior that a solar calendar of 364 days was used up to the Seleucid period when it was replaced by a Greek lunar calendar on the orders of Antiochus IV. The biblical evidence is more in congruence with a solar calendar starting in the Spring with what later came to be known as Nissan. Alan3278 ( talk) 21:35, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
The plural of יאָרצײַט is יאָרצײַטן, so the transcription should be changed to yahrzeitn (to remain close to the Yiddish form) or maybe yahrzeiten (which is closer to the modern German plural). -- 84.167.153.120 ( talk) 12:20, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
There is no reason not to name the scholar whose position this article informs us about. The reference is an article by Solomon Gandz, so I assume (being to read nothing more than a preview page) it is him and not someone quoted in his article. As the article is protected, I cannot change this myself. -- 84.167.153.120 ( talk) 12:44, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
That is Avraham b. Pinchas, according to the reference (whose author is written Tsedaka and not Tzedaka, by the way), and there is no reason not to name him. -- 84.167.153.120 ( talk) 13:31, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
In the wake of a edit war between two users over calendar drift calculations, I went and checked the calculations on both pages. I've confirmed the assertions using exact calculations:
I'm not sure what the claim about "Hebrew Calendar Science and Myths" being an index page is about, but it's straightforward to find the claims in "The Accuracy of the Hebrew Calendar" and "The Relative Rate of the Hebrew Calendar" if you scroll down. Arcorann ( talk) 11:55, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
I'm sure that this
makes sense to some readers but for the rest of us, would someone please explain the meaning of ? -- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 09:16, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
The Julian and Gregorian calendars are part of the category Calendars. Why isn't this calendar part of the category Calendars? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.39.132.240 ( talk) 04:44, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
First off, as it has been present for seven years it should not have been removed without a consensus on the talk page first. A source was added but AstroLynx removed it again. Wikipedia pages can be copied for future use, so its removal also means that those without computers who have not yet taken a copy will not be able to work out e.g. the date of their Yahrzeit. External sites can be offensive - yesterday I visited one of the cited websites AstroLynx referred to and it repeatedly flashed me this message:
Hurry, Ramadan's almost over! ZAKAT Give in the name of Allah. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.119.149 ( talk • contribs)
I note that AstroLynx only pinged editors who supported his view - a clear breach of WP:CANVASS. The "Original research" argument is dead in the water - I have checked the text of the section against Gauss' paper and can confirm that all the data is lifted from it. I wouldn't describe Gauss' contributions to science as "a mud pie". 78.150.119.149 ( talk) 13:05, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
References
The above discussion was initiated and fueled by IP socks of community-banned Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Vote (X) for Change. I just blocked the most recent incarnation, 78.149.213.149, after they repeatedly tried to modify the article. If someone would like to delete or archive the discussion, that would be in the spirit of Wikipedia:Banned means banned. Favonian ( talk) 13:10, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
When did the last 19 year cycle begin in the Hebrew calendar? 90.241.152.219 ( talk) 12:17, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
I have always had trouble with the statement that four month are named in the Bible (Aviv, Ziv, Ethanim and Bul). My problem with that statement is that the words "Aviv" and "Ethanim" are preceded in those verses by the definite article (he hayedia), indicating that those are adjectives, not nouns like names of months should be. Debresser ( talk) 18:09, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Could someone with edit access please add the shwa to תִּשׁרִי Tishri in the table under History. -- 188.28.96.91 ( talk) 12:16, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
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Please change "mounted up" to "amounted", as the current wording isn't normal English. 123.51.107.94 ( talk) 06:41, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Throughout this article there seems to be a lot of unsourced material after years of discussion about it. From my reading of the discussion there seems to be a consensus of leaving in much of the unsourced material, because it is factually true. The problem is thats not how wikipedia works. EVERYTHING in this or any article needs to be sourced from a reliable secondary source, and not based on either personal knowledge or reasonable conclusions based on reliable sources. Can we get some references? If not, every unsourced thing needs to be deleted. RevDan ( talk) 22:04, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
In the section about leap months it says: “It may be noted that in the Bible the name of the first month, Aviv, literally means "spring". Thus, if Adar was over and spring had not yet arrived, an additional month was observed.” To my understanding this is untrue, while in modern Hebrew ’aviv is the name of spring, it originally meant ripening (or more accurately, the stage before ripening, when the plant was still green) and the meaning of spring is much later, long after the bible was written, in which the month of ’aviv is mentioned. This is inline with the section before it, which speaks about the ripeness of barley. 2A00:A040:1DD:7402:9472:96C9:84ED:F4B3 ( talk) 14:50, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
* The Jewish Passover usually falls on the first full moon after the Northern Hemisphere vernal equinox, [1] although occasionally (currently three times every 19 years citation needed) it will occur on the second full moon. [2]
References
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"Calculation of the Samaritan calendar has historically been a secret reserved to the priestly family alone, and it is based upon the conjunction of the sun and the moon."
Sources: #1 Crown, Alan. "The Samaritans". Page 700. 1989. #2 Mills, John. "Three Months Residence at Nablus, and an Account of the Modern Samaritans". Page 240. 1864. SaturnsThorn ( talk) 16:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. PianoDan ( talk) 20:27, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
@
Debresser: After your latest edit, the article reads: Each calendar year begins with
Rosh Hashanah, so adjusting the length of the year is equivalent to moving the date of Rosh Hashanah.
That still doesn't make sense. Should it read Each Hebrew calendar year begins with
Rosh Hashanah, so adjusting the length of the year is equivalent to moving the Gregorian calendar date of Rosh Hashanah.
Would that help?
𝕁𝕄𝔽 (
talk) 00:32, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
Each Hebrew calendar year begins with Rosh Hashanah, so adjusting the length of the year is equivalent to moving the day on which the next Rosh Hashanah falls.Nevertheless I don't think this section has yet reached peak clarity, so I may want to change the sentence more dramatically later. Ar2332 ( talk) 10:30, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Each calendar year begins with Rosh Hashanah, so adjusting the length of the year is equivalent to moving the Gregorian date of Rosh Hashanah.My original "Each Hebrew calendar year begins ..." was a redundant qualification given the article topic, so I am happy to drop that aspect. I hope we can agree that this is a reasonable compromise. -- 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 14:13, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
I am considering deleting the following paragragh:
As I see it, it says basically nothing of substance that's non-obvious. It's also very likely wrong, in that the molad/chalakim system is effectively a clock, and shaot zemaniot were apparently used as a crude clock in ancient times. Does anyone disagree and see a reason to keep the paragraph or part of it? Ar2332 ( talk) 10:38, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
This paragraph seems incorrect. There very much is a clock, just that it doesn't usually concern itself with less than an hour, although that does happen, e.g. the molad time. Debresser ( talk) 22:58, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
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RAmerica011 ( talk) 07:35, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
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Is anyone going to fix the error with the forth day in the weeks section of the article. 78.147.168.178 ( talk) 06:05, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
I see that the Four Gates section once again claims that the "four gates" refer to the four different categories of years: this year a leap followed by two regular years, a regular year followed by a leap year followed by a regular year, etc. That is, the vertical columns in the chart. There is even at least one reference that would seem to support that. Nevertheless, this is a mistake. The "four" in Four Gates refers to the four different possible days for Rosh Hashanah. We know this because the concept of ד' שערים, Four Gates, originates in the writings of the Gaonim, and that is how they referred to them. For several examples, see Sacha Stern's book *The Jewish Calendar Controversy*. See Aharon ben Meir's first letter, and especially p. 159 where he quotes the Sefer Hamoadim, "the traditions of the 1st Gate are 491, 408, and 204; the traditions of the 2nd Gate are 695 and 204; the traditions of the 3rd Gate are six hours and 204; and the traditions of the 4th Gate are 491, 204 and 589..." Those correspond on the chart to the chalakim numbers for Shabbos, Thursday, Tuesday, and Monday.
I've removed a couple of words in the document that make that mistake, and a comment on one of references which is "Original Research" and mistaken too. MikeR613 ( talk) 19:08, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
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The passover date is on the 14th day at even (sunset) not the 15 day as stated herein. The 14th starts at sunset, Saying the passover is on the 14th day at even just means it starts right at the beginning of the day, not the end of the day which would be going int thew 15th. Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. 2607:FEA8:4D41:8800:E8D4:8159:8BAB:6208 ( talk) 21:51, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
I understand what the previous editor meant to say. But he mixed up two things: the time of the Passover lamb offering and the festival of Passover. The lamb offering is indeed on the 14th of Nisan towards the evening, while the festive day of Passover starts only at night, which is already the 15th of Nisan. I hope this answers their concern. In any case, the article is correct as it stands and no edits need to be made. Debresser ( talk) 23:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
The article incorrectly states that the Hebrew calendar begins with creation. In fact it begins at the end of “day 6” with the creation of man. This is an important distinction. CMCoel ( talk) 08:39, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
The reference junction of the Sun and the Moon (Molad 1) is considered to be at 5 hours and 204 halakim, or 11:11:20 p.m., on the evening of Sunday, 6 October 3761 BCE. [1] According to rabbinic reckoning, this moment was not Creation, but about one year "before" Creation, with the new moon of its first month (Tishrei) called molad tohu (the mean new moon of chaos or nothing). It is about one year before the traditional Jewish date of Creation on 25 Elul AM 1, [a] based upon the Seder Olam Rabbah. [b] Thus, adding 3760 before Rosh Hashanah or 3761 after to a Julian calendar year number starting from 1 CE will yield the Hebrew year. For earlier years there may be a discrepancy; see Missing years (Jewish calendar).
References
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