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I have done what I can, but it's not really my field. Also there's too much stuff duplicating knight & chivalry, given the length of the article.
Johnbod 14:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Mongols light C only I think, but the chinese guys will know. Johnbod 15:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
They are wearing only chainmail. Not plate armor WITH chainmail. Plate armor is key. That would be heavily armored. I'm removing the picture, and replacing with the one at the bottom. 64.236.121.129 16:15, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I believe the current first line of the article needs better consideration and some discussion at talk before being accepted. Thus I´ve placed the accuracy notice. Buckshot06( prof) 08:00, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
The term "heavy cavalry" was always relative and changed over time.
In Elizabethan England "light horse" might wear plate armour for the torso and even the arms, the main differentiation from contemporary "heavy horse" (men at arms and demilancers) is that light horse used a "Northern staffe" which was a lighter lance than that used by the heavy horse.
Later, during the English Civil War, the differentiation between heavy and light horse is blurred as the major distinctions were between "cuirassiers" (complete armour to the knee), "harquebusiers" (lobster-pot helmet, back and breastplate and often buff coat) and dragoons (unarmoured mounted infantry).
By the Napoleonic period the heavy cavalry of Britain had discarded all armour (except for one regiment, briefly in 1793) but they, in theory at least, rode larger, heavier horses than the did the light cavalry (light dragoons and hussars). Though they were armourless they were still heavy cavalry because that was how contemporaries regarded them.
In 1792 only one French cavalry regiment wore armour (the 8th Cavalerie) though all the rest of the regiments termed "cavalerie" were regarded as heavy. Napoleon converted regiments of cavalerie to cuirassiers (wearing metal armour) from 1802 onwards. However the Carabiniers remained heavy cavalry without armour until 1810. The elite Grenadiers a Cheval of the Imperial Guard were never armoured but were always regarded as heavy cavalry. Indeed it is recorded that they distained armour because they thought wearing it would be a slight on their courage. Urselius ( talk) 12:27, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
The Political and Military History of the Campaign of Waterloo; General Baron De Jomini, mentions "heavy cavalry" (using it for both French and Prussians), Jomini was one of Napoleon's generals. The French of the time of Napoleon recognised three broad classifications of cavalry: cavalerie légère (light cavalry) cavalerie de ligne (cavalry of the line) and cavalerie lourde (heavy cavalry - a literal translation). A Voice from Waterloo by Edward Cotton, Cotton was in the 7th hussars at the battle, he makes many mentions of "heavy cavalry." Hay, Captain William. Reminiscences under Wellington (Ed. Mrs SCI Wood, 1901). Hay talks of "the heavies" meaning the heavy cavalry (he was a light cavalryman) the term "heavy cavalry" was in such general use that a universally recognised abbreviation was in existence. I could go on, essentially endlessly. Could you cite even one pre 1850 source for the precise construction "battle cavalry?" Strangely you don't seem to have any problem with the concept of "light cavalry" and like 'black and white,' 'up and down,' 'in and out' 'light' does call out for its antonym 'heavy.' The conjunction light and battle just doesn't work linguistically. Urselius ( talk) 13:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
General the Earl of Wellington, K.B., to the Earl Bathurst, Secretary of State. MY LORD, ' Madrid, 13th August, 1812. '
"He moved forward on the morning of the 11th, from the neighbourhood of Galapagar, and supported by the heavy cavalry of the King's German Legion from Torre Lodones,..."
What do you think Wellington meant by this? It is a random selection from many such instances throughout his dispatches. Is it likely that: a) he meant that the KGL cavalry he was referring to was a particular class of cavalry (distinct from the light cavalry of the KGL), or b) that Wellington had weighed all their horses and swords?
Personally, I would go with a)!
If a type of cavalry is characterised by large horses and large men, weilding large swords and it is called "heavy cavalry" by contemporaries, arguing that the word heavy referred only to the weight of large horses and large men and large swords is a futile exercise. Heavy cavalry were so called precisely because their equipment was percieved as heavy but also because they were, to a greater or leasser extent, specialised for a shock role on the battlefield. The term "heavy cavalry" was both descriptive of appearance and also of function. It was the term used to define a type of cavalry.
During the 18th century the effectiveness of cavalry in a set-piece charge was directly related to the "weight of the horse" by military commentators. Heavy horses, it was reasoned had more impact when charging than lighter ones. It then follows that "heavy cavalry" were the ones who rode heavy horses and were therefore specialised for conducting shock action on the battlefield. By 1800 it was increasingly realised that momentum (weight plus velocity) was what really mattered so that a slightly lighter build of horse at a higher speed could have an equally good effect in a charge. However, by this time the term "heavy cavalry" was in widespred use as a way of indicating cavalry whose major role was battlefield shock action, rather than skirmishing, the pursuit, scouting or screening.
Minor points. The British army had only one sword exercise for all cavalry (1796 Rules and Regulations of the Sword Exercise of the Cavalry). All horses used by the British cavalry were "of the hunter stamp," light hunters for the light cavalry, heavy hunters for the heavy cavalry.
Harness in English is a word with rather a wide meaning, it can even mean armour ("in complete harness" meant fully armoured), and basically means any construction involving straps. Horse furniture includes the saddle, which I was mentioning separately. Urselius ( talk) 10:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
You give Welligton too much credit he didn't coin the usage he merely used the phrase because it was in general use at the time - and the time is not late Victorian - but Georgian.
Another Georgian useage:
“The affair was altogether conducted, on our part, with such a total absence of skill, that the French secured the retreat of their infantry and guns, sustaining indeed a loss, but a loss very little heavier than our own. Our fine brigade of heavy cavalry was never brought up to the enemy, and our columns of infantry followed slowly in the rear.”
Recollections of the Peninsula by Joseph Moyle Sherer, London (1825), pp. 198-200 (5th Ed. London, 1827).
You said that this usage was a late nineteenth century misconstruction. I have given you two examples of Georgian usage by soldiers describing actual events and using language to accurately convey what they intended. I could go on indefinitely giving such examples, but it is simply not worth the effort.
"My lord" was the superscription in the letter I quoted, and referred to 'Lord Bathurst' the letter's recipient, I didn't notice it was in upper case.
By your reckoning the quote: "The heavy cavalry will be in the plain between this and Celorico, and the light cavalry in front, and on the left of this." (1810) would also mean that light cavalry were not a 'type of cavalry' as they are not given an upper case treatment here either.
The endpoint of this is that you seem to be in a minority of one in expressing the view on this subject that you do. As such you should not be altering encyclopedia entries in the face of the overwhelming weight of opinion of the military historians who have written on the subject away from this received opinion. Urselius ( talk) 13:01, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
The term 'dragoon' changed over time and geographically. In 1650 all dragoons in Europe were mounted infantrymen, they rode horses to battle then dismounted to fight. However, this changed and by 1750 in all Europe except, perhaps, France the dragoon had become just another name for a medium to heavy cavalryman. The dragoon had 'bettered himself' into becoming a cavalryman whilst the "Horse" (ie the original heavy cavalry) had become effectively no different from the dragoon due to their gradual loss of all armour (as I have said before, by 1792 only one regiment in the French army wore a cuirass, and none in the British).
This situation was recognised in Britain when a parsimonius government converted its "Regiments of Horse" into "Dragoon Guards," because as dragoons they received a pay-cut. They were allowed the honorific "guards" as a sop to their pride as it cost nothing. Therefore, Britain entered the Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars with a heavy cavalry establishment of 7 regiments of Dragoon Guards and 6 of Dragoons. The two classes of heavy cavalry received the same uniforms, weapons and horse furniture only the titles differed.
The primary definition of "cavalry" or "Cavalry" is a soldier who fights on horseback. In the armies of the Rennaisance and after it was recognised that two major classifications of cavalry could be identified: heavy cavalry, whose primary function was shock action on the battlefield, and light cavalry, whose primary function was screening, outpost work, scouting, the pursuit of broken enemies etc. Some light cavalry could also perform shock action when required. If light cavalry charged on the battlefield and were used for shock action (as happened countelss times in practice) then they are also, from the first principles of logic, "battlefield cavalry" and, therfore, the terms "cavalry" and "battlefield cavalry" are fundamentally a less useful descriptor than the term "heavy cavalry."
The 'heavy' and 'light' cavalry distinction is a straightforward system of description used by virtually all modern commentators and is found in the vast majority of historical primary sources. It is simple, it is straightforward, it minimised confusion for the reader and should be applied in the wikepedia context. Urselius ( talk) 11:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
It is entirely pointless talking to you, it has taken overlong for me to reach this opinion. One person cannot dictate correct usage, this is arrived at by precedence and consensus, neither of which are on your side.
BTW, the English and other Renaissance European powers recognised a distinction between "The heavy horse" (and in this period the word "horse" as used in this context meant "cavalry" not merely an equine animal) and the "light horse." The heavy horse were the men-at-arms (gens-de-armes), and demilancers. The light horse were stradioti, mounted crossbows, jinetes, hobilars, or "Border Horse." The concept of heavy and light cavalry was well established. Urselius ( talk) 14:12, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
The book you link to mentions "heavy cavalry" a dozen times. I don't see how this helps your case.
The idea that the horses used by men-at-arms were in any way related to heavy draught breeds is entirely erroneous. Go to the Royal armouries in Leeds or Les Invalides in Paris and look at the horse armour and what horses they would fit, not draught horses. The type of horse used by cavalry in the early 18th century was called "the black horse" and was the descendant of the "knightly destrier" it fell out of use due to the emergence of hunter-type horses which had an infusion of warm-blood. Have a look at illustrations of Marlborough's wars, the horses are largish and very square-built with substantial well curved necks and relatively small heads and are rather short coupled - these are examples of the "black horse." Urselius ( talk) 08:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Warnery, the book you link to, uses the term 'heavy cavalry' in its widely accepted sense, the sense I am supporting here, and it's pre-1800. I am objecting to: (a) your apparent attempt to eradicate the term 'heavy cavalry' from wikipedia articles, and (b) your erroneous assertion the the term was either a late 19th century misnomer or an invention of the Duke of Wellington. Urselius ( talk) 13:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't see how there can possibly be any doubt that Napoleon & his contemporaries, both allies & opponents, distinguished between light & heavy cavalry units & formations. Napoleon formed not just brigades but entire divisions of heavy cavalry (grosse cavalerie), composed of cuirassier & carabinier regiments, along with dragoon (dragon) & light cavalry (cavalerie legere) divisions. The combat roles of each type of mounted unit & formation were clear & distinct, reflected in their mounts, tack, armor (or lack thereof), arms & other equipment. Although light cavalry could & did attack formed infantry & cavalry on the battlefield, their main missions were scouting, screening & skirmishing. Napoleon attached lancer units to heavy cavalry formations to conduct such tasks as reconnaissance for the "battle cavalry", big men on big horses, whether armored or not. ( Jagiellonian ( talk) 22:22, 30 March 2009 (UTC))
Re:Knights: "Unlike other forms of heavy cavalry, the medieval knights did not operate as a true military unit. Their mode of fighting (with the exception of chivalric orders such as the knights Templar and the knights of St. John) was essentially a 'free for all' of individual warriors." Isn't a massed lance charge a textbook formation deployment? Also, the repeated use of mounted knights for tactical purposes (such as the horse deployed by the French at Agincourt with the aim of running down the English archers) is in the historical record. Someone want to edit this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.158.136.166 ( talk) 21:47, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
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What's the difference between knights and cataphracts? A difference in which geographical areas used which terms & the fact that the term cataphract came 1st? Or are there any other differences? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.202.211.214 ( talk) 08:42, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
I see, per custom here on Wiki-land, history is portrayed weirdly and the fact that these culturally creative, in terms of history, early Proto-Indo-Europeans responsible formatively for the whole "heavy cavalry" innovation is barely mentioned -- except in a passing, I am sure, painfully endured, reference to the equally Iranian and Germanic "Massa-Getae" -- let's stop fooling ourselves, Jewish academia, the early Aryans have the credit here, in which the division between Iranian and Germanic and Celtic was meaningless because all inter-fused... PLEASE OBJECTIVITY, gosh almighty! The Scythians and Persians (likewise Indo-Europeans, but intermingled) are INHERITORS of a more ancient, "UR-ARYAN" (dare I say?) source... Please, the Hamitic Middle East DID NOT INVENT EVERY SINGLE PART OF CIVILIZATION. Gosh, this PC-Zionist soft-peddling of so-called "racially charged" issues is NAUSEATING, UGH — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.52.186.148 ( talk) 23:48, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
This is a very poor article that I would class as "start" at best. It has few citations, there are erroneous statements and it's English style is poor and not encyclopaedic.
Specifically, it has confused the social rank of 'knight' with the type of heavy cavalry called ' men-at-arms' (ie a European fully armoured cavalryman c.1150-1600). Also all the present content on knights is about their social aspects and is irrelevant to the military function of "fully armoured cavalryman". Throughout the article is the repeated expression that "heavy cavalry = armoured cavalry", this is erroneous. The distinction between light and heavy cavalry was based on battlefield role, not possession or absence of armour. Light cavalry scouted, raided enemy communications, screened and provided outposts for armies, heavy cavalry were reserved for making formal battlefield charges. The amount of armour was relative and depended on the historical context. The Scots Greys at Waterloo were heavy cavalry, they wore no armour at all. In contrast the light cavalry of Queen Elizabeth I's time wore steel helmets, back and breastplates, a plate gorget, and mail sleeves, or complete plate arm and shoulder defences. Urselius ( talk) 08:50, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
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Badly needs better coverage of:
I have done what I can, but it's not really my field. Also there's too much stuff duplicating knight & chivalry, given the length of the article.
Johnbod 14:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Mongols light C only I think, but the chinese guys will know. Johnbod 15:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
They are wearing only chainmail. Not plate armor WITH chainmail. Plate armor is key. That would be heavily armored. I'm removing the picture, and replacing with the one at the bottom. 64.236.121.129 16:15, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I believe the current first line of the article needs better consideration and some discussion at talk before being accepted. Thus I´ve placed the accuracy notice. Buckshot06( prof) 08:00, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
The term "heavy cavalry" was always relative and changed over time.
In Elizabethan England "light horse" might wear plate armour for the torso and even the arms, the main differentiation from contemporary "heavy horse" (men at arms and demilancers) is that light horse used a "Northern staffe" which was a lighter lance than that used by the heavy horse.
Later, during the English Civil War, the differentiation between heavy and light horse is blurred as the major distinctions were between "cuirassiers" (complete armour to the knee), "harquebusiers" (lobster-pot helmet, back and breastplate and often buff coat) and dragoons (unarmoured mounted infantry).
By the Napoleonic period the heavy cavalry of Britain had discarded all armour (except for one regiment, briefly in 1793) but they, in theory at least, rode larger, heavier horses than the did the light cavalry (light dragoons and hussars). Though they were armourless they were still heavy cavalry because that was how contemporaries regarded them.
In 1792 only one French cavalry regiment wore armour (the 8th Cavalerie) though all the rest of the regiments termed "cavalerie" were regarded as heavy. Napoleon converted regiments of cavalerie to cuirassiers (wearing metal armour) from 1802 onwards. However the Carabiniers remained heavy cavalry without armour until 1810. The elite Grenadiers a Cheval of the Imperial Guard were never armoured but were always regarded as heavy cavalry. Indeed it is recorded that they distained armour because they thought wearing it would be a slight on their courage. Urselius ( talk) 12:27, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
The Political and Military History of the Campaign of Waterloo; General Baron De Jomini, mentions "heavy cavalry" (using it for both French and Prussians), Jomini was one of Napoleon's generals. The French of the time of Napoleon recognised three broad classifications of cavalry: cavalerie légère (light cavalry) cavalerie de ligne (cavalry of the line) and cavalerie lourde (heavy cavalry - a literal translation). A Voice from Waterloo by Edward Cotton, Cotton was in the 7th hussars at the battle, he makes many mentions of "heavy cavalry." Hay, Captain William. Reminiscences under Wellington (Ed. Mrs SCI Wood, 1901). Hay talks of "the heavies" meaning the heavy cavalry (he was a light cavalryman) the term "heavy cavalry" was in such general use that a universally recognised abbreviation was in existence. I could go on, essentially endlessly. Could you cite even one pre 1850 source for the precise construction "battle cavalry?" Strangely you don't seem to have any problem with the concept of "light cavalry" and like 'black and white,' 'up and down,' 'in and out' 'light' does call out for its antonym 'heavy.' The conjunction light and battle just doesn't work linguistically. Urselius ( talk) 13:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
General the Earl of Wellington, K.B., to the Earl Bathurst, Secretary of State. MY LORD, ' Madrid, 13th August, 1812. '
"He moved forward on the morning of the 11th, from the neighbourhood of Galapagar, and supported by the heavy cavalry of the King's German Legion from Torre Lodones,..."
What do you think Wellington meant by this? It is a random selection from many such instances throughout his dispatches. Is it likely that: a) he meant that the KGL cavalry he was referring to was a particular class of cavalry (distinct from the light cavalry of the KGL), or b) that Wellington had weighed all their horses and swords?
Personally, I would go with a)!
If a type of cavalry is characterised by large horses and large men, weilding large swords and it is called "heavy cavalry" by contemporaries, arguing that the word heavy referred only to the weight of large horses and large men and large swords is a futile exercise. Heavy cavalry were so called precisely because their equipment was percieved as heavy but also because they were, to a greater or leasser extent, specialised for a shock role on the battlefield. The term "heavy cavalry" was both descriptive of appearance and also of function. It was the term used to define a type of cavalry.
During the 18th century the effectiveness of cavalry in a set-piece charge was directly related to the "weight of the horse" by military commentators. Heavy horses, it was reasoned had more impact when charging than lighter ones. It then follows that "heavy cavalry" were the ones who rode heavy horses and were therefore specialised for conducting shock action on the battlefield. By 1800 it was increasingly realised that momentum (weight plus velocity) was what really mattered so that a slightly lighter build of horse at a higher speed could have an equally good effect in a charge. However, by this time the term "heavy cavalry" was in widespred use as a way of indicating cavalry whose major role was battlefield shock action, rather than skirmishing, the pursuit, scouting or screening.
Minor points. The British army had only one sword exercise for all cavalry (1796 Rules and Regulations of the Sword Exercise of the Cavalry). All horses used by the British cavalry were "of the hunter stamp," light hunters for the light cavalry, heavy hunters for the heavy cavalry.
Harness in English is a word with rather a wide meaning, it can even mean armour ("in complete harness" meant fully armoured), and basically means any construction involving straps. Horse furniture includes the saddle, which I was mentioning separately. Urselius ( talk) 10:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
You give Welligton too much credit he didn't coin the usage he merely used the phrase because it was in general use at the time - and the time is not late Victorian - but Georgian.
Another Georgian useage:
“The affair was altogether conducted, on our part, with such a total absence of skill, that the French secured the retreat of their infantry and guns, sustaining indeed a loss, but a loss very little heavier than our own. Our fine brigade of heavy cavalry was never brought up to the enemy, and our columns of infantry followed slowly in the rear.”
Recollections of the Peninsula by Joseph Moyle Sherer, London (1825), pp. 198-200 (5th Ed. London, 1827).
You said that this usage was a late nineteenth century misconstruction. I have given you two examples of Georgian usage by soldiers describing actual events and using language to accurately convey what they intended. I could go on indefinitely giving such examples, but it is simply not worth the effort.
"My lord" was the superscription in the letter I quoted, and referred to 'Lord Bathurst' the letter's recipient, I didn't notice it was in upper case.
By your reckoning the quote: "The heavy cavalry will be in the plain between this and Celorico, and the light cavalry in front, and on the left of this." (1810) would also mean that light cavalry were not a 'type of cavalry' as they are not given an upper case treatment here either.
The endpoint of this is that you seem to be in a minority of one in expressing the view on this subject that you do. As such you should not be altering encyclopedia entries in the face of the overwhelming weight of opinion of the military historians who have written on the subject away from this received opinion. Urselius ( talk) 13:01, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
The term 'dragoon' changed over time and geographically. In 1650 all dragoons in Europe were mounted infantrymen, they rode horses to battle then dismounted to fight. However, this changed and by 1750 in all Europe except, perhaps, France the dragoon had become just another name for a medium to heavy cavalryman. The dragoon had 'bettered himself' into becoming a cavalryman whilst the "Horse" (ie the original heavy cavalry) had become effectively no different from the dragoon due to their gradual loss of all armour (as I have said before, by 1792 only one regiment in the French army wore a cuirass, and none in the British).
This situation was recognised in Britain when a parsimonius government converted its "Regiments of Horse" into "Dragoon Guards," because as dragoons they received a pay-cut. They were allowed the honorific "guards" as a sop to their pride as it cost nothing. Therefore, Britain entered the Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars with a heavy cavalry establishment of 7 regiments of Dragoon Guards and 6 of Dragoons. The two classes of heavy cavalry received the same uniforms, weapons and horse furniture only the titles differed.
The primary definition of "cavalry" or "Cavalry" is a soldier who fights on horseback. In the armies of the Rennaisance and after it was recognised that two major classifications of cavalry could be identified: heavy cavalry, whose primary function was shock action on the battlefield, and light cavalry, whose primary function was screening, outpost work, scouting, the pursuit of broken enemies etc. Some light cavalry could also perform shock action when required. If light cavalry charged on the battlefield and were used for shock action (as happened countelss times in practice) then they are also, from the first principles of logic, "battlefield cavalry" and, therfore, the terms "cavalry" and "battlefield cavalry" are fundamentally a less useful descriptor than the term "heavy cavalry."
The 'heavy' and 'light' cavalry distinction is a straightforward system of description used by virtually all modern commentators and is found in the vast majority of historical primary sources. It is simple, it is straightforward, it minimised confusion for the reader and should be applied in the wikepedia context. Urselius ( talk) 11:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
It is entirely pointless talking to you, it has taken overlong for me to reach this opinion. One person cannot dictate correct usage, this is arrived at by precedence and consensus, neither of which are on your side.
BTW, the English and other Renaissance European powers recognised a distinction between "The heavy horse" (and in this period the word "horse" as used in this context meant "cavalry" not merely an equine animal) and the "light horse." The heavy horse were the men-at-arms (gens-de-armes), and demilancers. The light horse were stradioti, mounted crossbows, jinetes, hobilars, or "Border Horse." The concept of heavy and light cavalry was well established. Urselius ( talk) 14:12, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
The book you link to mentions "heavy cavalry" a dozen times. I don't see how this helps your case.
The idea that the horses used by men-at-arms were in any way related to heavy draught breeds is entirely erroneous. Go to the Royal armouries in Leeds or Les Invalides in Paris and look at the horse armour and what horses they would fit, not draught horses. The type of horse used by cavalry in the early 18th century was called "the black horse" and was the descendant of the "knightly destrier" it fell out of use due to the emergence of hunter-type horses which had an infusion of warm-blood. Have a look at illustrations of Marlborough's wars, the horses are largish and very square-built with substantial well curved necks and relatively small heads and are rather short coupled - these are examples of the "black horse." Urselius ( talk) 08:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Warnery, the book you link to, uses the term 'heavy cavalry' in its widely accepted sense, the sense I am supporting here, and it's pre-1800. I am objecting to: (a) your apparent attempt to eradicate the term 'heavy cavalry' from wikipedia articles, and (b) your erroneous assertion the the term was either a late 19th century misnomer or an invention of the Duke of Wellington. Urselius ( talk) 13:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't see how there can possibly be any doubt that Napoleon & his contemporaries, both allies & opponents, distinguished between light & heavy cavalry units & formations. Napoleon formed not just brigades but entire divisions of heavy cavalry (grosse cavalerie), composed of cuirassier & carabinier regiments, along with dragoon (dragon) & light cavalry (cavalerie legere) divisions. The combat roles of each type of mounted unit & formation were clear & distinct, reflected in their mounts, tack, armor (or lack thereof), arms & other equipment. Although light cavalry could & did attack formed infantry & cavalry on the battlefield, their main missions were scouting, screening & skirmishing. Napoleon attached lancer units to heavy cavalry formations to conduct such tasks as reconnaissance for the "battle cavalry", big men on big horses, whether armored or not. ( Jagiellonian ( talk) 22:22, 30 March 2009 (UTC))
Re:Knights: "Unlike other forms of heavy cavalry, the medieval knights did not operate as a true military unit. Their mode of fighting (with the exception of chivalric orders such as the knights Templar and the knights of St. John) was essentially a 'free for all' of individual warriors." Isn't a massed lance charge a textbook formation deployment? Also, the repeated use of mounted knights for tactical purposes (such as the horse deployed by the French at Agincourt with the aim of running down the English archers) is in the historical record. Someone want to edit this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.158.136.166 ( talk) 21:47, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:BattleofIssus333BC-mosaic-detail1.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests December 2011
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
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What's the difference between knights and cataphracts? A difference in which geographical areas used which terms & the fact that the term cataphract came 1st? Or are there any other differences? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.202.211.214 ( talk) 08:42, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
I see, per custom here on Wiki-land, history is portrayed weirdly and the fact that these culturally creative, in terms of history, early Proto-Indo-Europeans responsible formatively for the whole "heavy cavalry" innovation is barely mentioned -- except in a passing, I am sure, painfully endured, reference to the equally Iranian and Germanic "Massa-Getae" -- let's stop fooling ourselves, Jewish academia, the early Aryans have the credit here, in which the division between Iranian and Germanic and Celtic was meaningless because all inter-fused... PLEASE OBJECTIVITY, gosh almighty! The Scythians and Persians (likewise Indo-Europeans, but intermingled) are INHERITORS of a more ancient, "UR-ARYAN" (dare I say?) source... Please, the Hamitic Middle East DID NOT INVENT EVERY SINGLE PART OF CIVILIZATION. Gosh, this PC-Zionist soft-peddling of so-called "racially charged" issues is NAUSEATING, UGH — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.52.186.148 ( talk) 23:48, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
This is a very poor article that I would class as "start" at best. It has few citations, there are erroneous statements and it's English style is poor and not encyclopaedic.
Specifically, it has confused the social rank of 'knight' with the type of heavy cavalry called ' men-at-arms' (ie a European fully armoured cavalryman c.1150-1600). Also all the present content on knights is about their social aspects and is irrelevant to the military function of "fully armoured cavalryman". Throughout the article is the repeated expression that "heavy cavalry = armoured cavalry", this is erroneous. The distinction between light and heavy cavalry was based on battlefield role, not possession or absence of armour. Light cavalry scouted, raided enemy communications, screened and provided outposts for armies, heavy cavalry were reserved for making formal battlefield charges. The amount of armour was relative and depended on the historical context. The Scots Greys at Waterloo were heavy cavalry, they wore no armour at all. In contrast the light cavalry of Queen Elizabeth I's time wore steel helmets, back and breastplates, a plate gorget, and mail sleeves, or complete plate arm and shoulder defences. Urselius ( talk) 08:50, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
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