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Splitting proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
No consensus. This discussion has largely stalled with few comments in the past four months. By a raw vote tally (which isn't how this is decided, but it's useful) there were 5 votes to split (counting the nominator) and 5 opposed. Later comments also pointed out this content is already appropriately covered on other pages. PARAKANYAA ( talk) 03:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I have proposed a potential WP:SPLIT of the content related to the Diplomatic Fallout into a new article 2023 Canada–India diplomatic crisis or 2023 Canada–India diplomatic row. There has been a recurring issue with users creating separate articles without prior consensus, resulting in articles that essentially constitute WP:CFORK and are WP:DUPLICATE of the existing Hardeep Singh Nijjar article.

The initial attempt to address this was the creation of the 2023 Canada–India diplomatic crisis article, as documented in the discussion at Talk:Hardeep_Singh_Nijjar/Archive_1#Split_content_to_2023_India-Canada_diplomatic_crisis, which unfortunately did not reach a conclusive decision. Subsequently, another user copied the content to create the 2023 Canada–India diplomatic row article, again without a prior merge or split proposal.

These new articles share approximately 90% of their content with the original Hardeep Singh Nijjar article. Therefore, I have submitted this request to initiate a formal split discussion, with the aim of reaching a consensus-based resolution.

pinging involved useres: @ Lukt64, The Kip, Schwinnspeed, and CapnJackSp: 2402:A00:152:85D3:61B4:3AA2:6876:1690 ( talk) 16:37, 8 November 2023 (UTC) reply

I have no opinion on if a split should be made or not, but some amount of content needs to remain in this article so I'm not clear how it'd end up much more than a duplicate of this article. There's very little information on the crisis/row other than the direct fallout of the killing of Hardeep Nijjar. If it does get split in some manner, I'd vote for the "diplomatic row" wording unless things continue to escalate beyond just recalling of diplomats. Ergzay ( talk) 17:07, 8 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Support Split proposal as there is sufficient content for separate "2023 Canada–India diplomatic row" article as per WP:Notability with multiple WP:RS sources and it satisfies the criteria of WP:GNG for a separate Wiki article. Also, this article is losing focus and getting too long with new developments in 2023 diplomatic row. RogerYg ( talk) 06:40, 9 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose split. The article is not long at all; at 17 kB of readable prose length alone does not justify division or trimming per WP:TOOBIG. I see minimal developments in the last month, so it's not like the amount of length needed to cover the subject is rapidly growing. Notability is not a concern since we are discussing where to have this content, not whether to have it. VQuakr ( talk) 07:12, 9 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose: This page only contains 17kB of readable prose - so there is not a viable length reason for splitting. I'm also not convinced there even needs to be a standalone page on a diplomatic rift/crisis. This was a very isolated and pretty uneventful and unimpactful, short-lived diplomatic spat (it already appears to have blown over), and it largely only affected the two involved countries. Effects and impact were extremely limited. Long-term it's a non-event. I don't see why it can't remain as a section in Canada–India relations (also a page with only 18kB) and be left at that. Iskandar323 ( talk) 07:56, 9 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose split. There is no need for a split of this article. The circumstances of his death fit neatly into the article about him. No need to send our readers to separate articles that a good copyedit of this one wouldn't fix. If substantial new information arises about his death and the investigation, then a split can be considered at that time. Wikipedia has no time limits. Cheers, GenQuest "scribble" 16:21, 9 November 2023 (UTC) reply
    WP:NOMERGE point three / WP:CONTENTSPLIT applies here, in my opinion. "The topics are discrete subjects warranting their own articles, with each meeting the General Notability Guidelines, even if short." (bolding mine). ―  "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  13:44, 15 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Comment There have not been many updates lately. Information about the diplomatic row is not too long right now. Combined with the killing, the entire chain of events does take up a substantial part of this article. Senorangel ( talk) 02:44, 10 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Support split. This is an ongoing issue. Just this week there was an apparent terrorist threat to Air India in Canada [1]. This is much bigger than Hardeep Singh Nijjar. And it would be WP:UNDUE at Canada–India relations. VR talk 04:53, 12 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Support split - These should be separate articles. Too much has been forced into this biography that isn't really about Hardeep Singh Nijjar.-- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk) 07:45, 15 November 2023 (UTC) reply
On further consideration, I think the content should stay here, and oppose a split. Much of the "diplomatic row" content is already appropriately included at Canada–India relations#2023 diplomatic row. That section can continue to grow and incorporate appropriate content from this article, and vice versa. We don't need a third article on this. That said, I still question whether this article should be a biography, as opposed to an article about the " Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar", which is the primary reason for his notability. It might also be worth considering whether some of the redirects should really point here, as opposed to the appropriate section of the Canada–India relations article.-- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk) 23:48, 16 November 2023 (UTC) reply
@ Darryl Kerrigan: I get the impression that ultimately, we're wanting the same end result. I think we both are of the opinion that Nijjar's notability is primarily based on his death and therefore that should be the scope of an article. I'm be honest, I'm not fussed over how we get there, whether through splitting or through renaming. I think the repeated requests (of which I'm guilty of contributing to) have sowed confusion over what we want as well. ―  "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  17:59, 24 November 2023 (UTC) reply
Agreed. I think we need to look at the project as a whole. It seems, at least for the time being, that this content can live here (whether the article is renamed or not) and at Canada–India relations#2023 diplomatic row. Then in future if more counties become involved and/or this diplomatic row/fallout becomes a long lasting issue (perhaps even with well reported investigations, reports, trials etc.) then editors here and at Talk:Canada–India relations might decide that a spin off like 2023 Canada–India diplomatic crisis is necessary. For the time being, I think these two articles can handle the content, though my preference is that this article do that as an article about his death (not as a biography).-- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk) 18:14, 24 November 2023 (UTC) reply
Hi -- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk) Well, this article is already too long to add new diplomactic details, many of which are not directly linked to Nijjar's death. Also, please note that Nijjar was quite notable in India and even in some Canadian media, even before his death, when he was put on the International Police (Interpol) arrest warrant (Red-corner notice) list in 2016; and again in 2020, when he was designated a terrorist by India, and was alleged to be the chief of "Khalistan Tiger Force". For example
And, many of the new diplomatic tensions are no longer due to Nijjar, but now due to other pro-Khalistan activists such as Gurpatwant Singh Pannun, who has issued threats against Air-India flights from Nov 19, 2023 onwards. So these new developments should not be under Nijjar article, but instead under Canada–India relations#2023 diplomatic row or split article. RogerYg ( talk) 06:36, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply
Without clear consensus on the split, I'd propose canvassing further thoughts on renaming this to "Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar" which I support due to his notability chiefly stemming from the circumstances around his death. Cavernousknoll ( talk) 00:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Support split to 2023 Canada–India diplomatic row or Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar per my previous split proposal from September 21. @ AirshipJungleman29: I'm wondering specifically if you still oppose a split. I'm pinging you because you identify as an " exclusionist" and I do still feel that a split would "...[seek] to maximize the usefulness of an article by removing ... superfluous information" from this biographical article and would not create two duplicate articles, a concern you expressed from the September proposal (and if it would, than is Nijjar really independently notable from his killing?). ―  "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  13:28, 15 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose split per Darryl; the scope of the article should be about the death of Nijjar, not a biography on Nijjar. ―  "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  18:03, 24 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Support split Diplomatic fallout section is enough to split the page.-- Ameen Akbar ( talk) 12:01, 13 December 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Support split Obviously even with a split, there should still be mention of the murder of Nijjar. Though I wonder if the split article should just cover Canada, or all the countries that Indian death squads have been operating in. And looking into that, I'm surprised there's no mention of this recent terrorism at Death squad#India. Nfitz ( talk) 01:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC) reply
This article should be deleted. This person is/was not important to have an article 122.150.101.240 ( talk) 07:23, 3 February 2024 (UTC) reply
Considering the extensive international media coverage of his death, I can understand arguing for the article to focus on that (like many other users have suggested), but deletion seems unwarranted, at least with respect to notability. Jwuthe2 ( talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 November 2023

Please add the following - a similar and parallel case (Canadian government interference in China) in reverse direction when 2 Canadians were caught, 1 confessed and both imprisoned in China for spying in China on behalf of Canadian government. 

==See also==
* 
Detention of Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig 
119.74.238.54 (
talk) 05:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
reply
 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{ Edit extended-protected}} template. – DreamRimmer ( talk) 15:24, 1 December 2023 (UTC) reply
This is a contentious topic, so if you wish to add a similar page in the 'See Also' section, please ensure consensus is reached. – DreamRimmer ( talk) 15:26, 1 December 2023 (UTC) reply
I think that it should be included in See Also, as there is a relatedness with this case, as both Nijjar & Two Michael's cases involve spying and Canada's relations with foreignn countries. And, for See Also, we do not typically need consensus as long as there a relevance and relation to the article. RogerYg ( talk) 04:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC) reply
But, since we are currently discussing a split on this Nijjar page, we may postpone it until split decision is made. RogerYg ( talk) 04:28, 5 December 2023 (UTC) reply

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 January 2024

Remove the sentence: "In 2015, the Indian government asked Canadian authorities to surveil Nijjar, alleging that he was involved in a plot to transport ammunition into India using a paraglider."

The reference provided does not support this statement and I was unable to find a news article that covered this. Seems like a made up allegation. 106.216.232.216 ( talk) 05:13, 22 January 2024 (UTC) reply

 Not done: But the reference does support it? The Vancouver Sun article says In 2015, India police requested RCMP track his whereabouts after he was suspected of a plot to transport ammunition by paraglider over the Pakistan-India border. ARandomName123 ( talk)Ping me! 14:25, 22 January 2024 (UTC) reply

Requested move 1 March 2024

{{requested move/dated|Killing of Hardeep Singh Nijjar}} Hardeep Singh Nijjar → Killing of Hardeep Singh Nijjar – WP:RMCM As part of the split discussion below, it was mentioned that the article should be renamed "Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar" due to that being the principal aspect of his notability. I think "death" is overly cautious in this case and under-descriptive. I propose the title of "Killing of Hardeep Singh Nijjar" as it isn't a contested fact that "he was shot and killed by two gunmen" https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66860510.amp "Who was Hardeep Singh Nijjar, the Sikh activist whose killing has divided Canada and India?" https://apnews.com/article/canada-india-sikh-trudeau-modi-nijjar-fb390e4a45d167711db4f96681edd0a2 Who Was the Man Whose Killing Canada Says India Instigated? https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/19/world/canada/who-is-hardeep-singh-nijjar-india.html Cavernousknoll ( talk) 01:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Cavernousknoll ( talk) 01:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Nowiki'd. We already have an active split discussion, just propose the alternate split target there. Too confusing to have simultaneous active split and move discussions. VQuakr ( talk) 01:24, 1 March 2024 (UTC) reply
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Hardeep_Singh_Nijjar&oldid=1220822675"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Splitting proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
No consensus. This discussion has largely stalled with few comments in the past four months. By a raw vote tally (which isn't how this is decided, but it's useful) there were 5 votes to split (counting the nominator) and 5 opposed. Later comments also pointed out this content is already appropriately covered on other pages. PARAKANYAA ( talk) 03:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I have proposed a potential WP:SPLIT of the content related to the Diplomatic Fallout into a new article 2023 Canada–India diplomatic crisis or 2023 Canada–India diplomatic row. There has been a recurring issue with users creating separate articles without prior consensus, resulting in articles that essentially constitute WP:CFORK and are WP:DUPLICATE of the existing Hardeep Singh Nijjar article.

The initial attempt to address this was the creation of the 2023 Canada–India diplomatic crisis article, as documented in the discussion at Talk:Hardeep_Singh_Nijjar/Archive_1#Split_content_to_2023_India-Canada_diplomatic_crisis, which unfortunately did not reach a conclusive decision. Subsequently, another user copied the content to create the 2023 Canada–India diplomatic row article, again without a prior merge or split proposal.

These new articles share approximately 90% of their content with the original Hardeep Singh Nijjar article. Therefore, I have submitted this request to initiate a formal split discussion, with the aim of reaching a consensus-based resolution.

pinging involved useres: @ Lukt64, The Kip, Schwinnspeed, and CapnJackSp: 2402:A00:152:85D3:61B4:3AA2:6876:1690 ( talk) 16:37, 8 November 2023 (UTC) reply

I have no opinion on if a split should be made or not, but some amount of content needs to remain in this article so I'm not clear how it'd end up much more than a duplicate of this article. There's very little information on the crisis/row other than the direct fallout of the killing of Hardeep Nijjar. If it does get split in some manner, I'd vote for the "diplomatic row" wording unless things continue to escalate beyond just recalling of diplomats. Ergzay ( talk) 17:07, 8 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Support Split proposal as there is sufficient content for separate "2023 Canada–India diplomatic row" article as per WP:Notability with multiple WP:RS sources and it satisfies the criteria of WP:GNG for a separate Wiki article. Also, this article is losing focus and getting too long with new developments in 2023 diplomatic row. RogerYg ( talk) 06:40, 9 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose split. The article is not long at all; at 17 kB of readable prose length alone does not justify division or trimming per WP:TOOBIG. I see minimal developments in the last month, so it's not like the amount of length needed to cover the subject is rapidly growing. Notability is not a concern since we are discussing where to have this content, not whether to have it. VQuakr ( talk) 07:12, 9 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose: This page only contains 17kB of readable prose - so there is not a viable length reason for splitting. I'm also not convinced there even needs to be a standalone page on a diplomatic rift/crisis. This was a very isolated and pretty uneventful and unimpactful, short-lived diplomatic spat (it already appears to have blown over), and it largely only affected the two involved countries. Effects and impact were extremely limited. Long-term it's a non-event. I don't see why it can't remain as a section in Canada–India relations (also a page with only 18kB) and be left at that. Iskandar323 ( talk) 07:56, 9 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose split. There is no need for a split of this article. The circumstances of his death fit neatly into the article about him. No need to send our readers to separate articles that a good copyedit of this one wouldn't fix. If substantial new information arises about his death and the investigation, then a split can be considered at that time. Wikipedia has no time limits. Cheers, GenQuest "scribble" 16:21, 9 November 2023 (UTC) reply
    WP:NOMERGE point three / WP:CONTENTSPLIT applies here, in my opinion. "The topics are discrete subjects warranting their own articles, with each meeting the General Notability Guidelines, even if short." (bolding mine). ―  "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  13:44, 15 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Comment There have not been many updates lately. Information about the diplomatic row is not too long right now. Combined with the killing, the entire chain of events does take up a substantial part of this article. Senorangel ( talk) 02:44, 10 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Support split. This is an ongoing issue. Just this week there was an apparent terrorist threat to Air India in Canada [1]. This is much bigger than Hardeep Singh Nijjar. And it would be WP:UNDUE at Canada–India relations. VR talk 04:53, 12 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Support split - These should be separate articles. Too much has been forced into this biography that isn't really about Hardeep Singh Nijjar.-- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk) 07:45, 15 November 2023 (UTC) reply
On further consideration, I think the content should stay here, and oppose a split. Much of the "diplomatic row" content is already appropriately included at Canada–India relations#2023 diplomatic row. That section can continue to grow and incorporate appropriate content from this article, and vice versa. We don't need a third article on this. That said, I still question whether this article should be a biography, as opposed to an article about the " Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar", which is the primary reason for his notability. It might also be worth considering whether some of the redirects should really point here, as opposed to the appropriate section of the Canada–India relations article.-- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk) 23:48, 16 November 2023 (UTC) reply
@ Darryl Kerrigan: I get the impression that ultimately, we're wanting the same end result. I think we both are of the opinion that Nijjar's notability is primarily based on his death and therefore that should be the scope of an article. I'm be honest, I'm not fussed over how we get there, whether through splitting or through renaming. I think the repeated requests (of which I'm guilty of contributing to) have sowed confusion over what we want as well. ―  "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  17:59, 24 November 2023 (UTC) reply
Agreed. I think we need to look at the project as a whole. It seems, at least for the time being, that this content can live here (whether the article is renamed or not) and at Canada–India relations#2023 diplomatic row. Then in future if more counties become involved and/or this diplomatic row/fallout becomes a long lasting issue (perhaps even with well reported investigations, reports, trials etc.) then editors here and at Talk:Canada–India relations might decide that a spin off like 2023 Canada–India diplomatic crisis is necessary. For the time being, I think these two articles can handle the content, though my preference is that this article do that as an article about his death (not as a biography).-- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk) 18:14, 24 November 2023 (UTC) reply
Hi -- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk) Well, this article is already too long to add new diplomactic details, many of which are not directly linked to Nijjar's death. Also, please note that Nijjar was quite notable in India and even in some Canadian media, even before his death, when he was put on the International Police (Interpol) arrest warrant (Red-corner notice) list in 2016; and again in 2020, when he was designated a terrorist by India, and was alleged to be the chief of "Khalistan Tiger Force". For example
And, many of the new diplomatic tensions are no longer due to Nijjar, but now due to other pro-Khalistan activists such as Gurpatwant Singh Pannun, who has issued threats against Air-India flights from Nov 19, 2023 onwards. So these new developments should not be under Nijjar article, but instead under Canada–India relations#2023 diplomatic row or split article. RogerYg ( talk) 06:36, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply
Without clear consensus on the split, I'd propose canvassing further thoughts on renaming this to "Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar" which I support due to his notability chiefly stemming from the circumstances around his death. Cavernousknoll ( talk) 00:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Support split to 2023 Canada–India diplomatic row or Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar per my previous split proposal from September 21. @ AirshipJungleman29: I'm wondering specifically if you still oppose a split. I'm pinging you because you identify as an " exclusionist" and I do still feel that a split would "...[seek] to maximize the usefulness of an article by removing ... superfluous information" from this biographical article and would not create two duplicate articles, a concern you expressed from the September proposal (and if it would, than is Nijjar really independently notable from his killing?). ―  "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  13:28, 15 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose split per Darryl; the scope of the article should be about the death of Nijjar, not a biography on Nijjar. ―  "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  18:03, 24 November 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Support split Diplomatic fallout section is enough to split the page.-- Ameen Akbar ( talk) 12:01, 13 December 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Support split Obviously even with a split, there should still be mention of the murder of Nijjar. Though I wonder if the split article should just cover Canada, or all the countries that Indian death squads have been operating in. And looking into that, I'm surprised there's no mention of this recent terrorism at Death squad#India. Nfitz ( talk) 01:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC) reply
This article should be deleted. This person is/was not important to have an article 122.150.101.240 ( talk) 07:23, 3 February 2024 (UTC) reply
Considering the extensive international media coverage of his death, I can understand arguing for the article to focus on that (like many other users have suggested), but deletion seems unwarranted, at least with respect to notability. Jwuthe2 ( talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 November 2023

Please add the following - a similar and parallel case (Canadian government interference in China) in reverse direction when 2 Canadians were caught, 1 confessed and both imprisoned in China for spying in China on behalf of Canadian government. 

==See also==
* 
Detention of Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig 
119.74.238.54 (
talk) 05:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
reply
 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{ Edit extended-protected}} template. – DreamRimmer ( talk) 15:24, 1 December 2023 (UTC) reply
This is a contentious topic, so if you wish to add a similar page in the 'See Also' section, please ensure consensus is reached. – DreamRimmer ( talk) 15:26, 1 December 2023 (UTC) reply
I think that it should be included in See Also, as there is a relatedness with this case, as both Nijjar & Two Michael's cases involve spying and Canada's relations with foreignn countries. And, for See Also, we do not typically need consensus as long as there a relevance and relation to the article. RogerYg ( talk) 04:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC) reply
But, since we are currently discussing a split on this Nijjar page, we may postpone it until split decision is made. RogerYg ( talk) 04:28, 5 December 2023 (UTC) reply

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 January 2024

Remove the sentence: "In 2015, the Indian government asked Canadian authorities to surveil Nijjar, alleging that he was involved in a plot to transport ammunition into India using a paraglider."

The reference provided does not support this statement and I was unable to find a news article that covered this. Seems like a made up allegation. 106.216.232.216 ( talk) 05:13, 22 January 2024 (UTC) reply

 Not done: But the reference does support it? The Vancouver Sun article says In 2015, India police requested RCMP track his whereabouts after he was suspected of a plot to transport ammunition by paraglider over the Pakistan-India border. ARandomName123 ( talk)Ping me! 14:25, 22 January 2024 (UTC) reply

Requested move 1 March 2024

{{requested move/dated|Killing of Hardeep Singh Nijjar}} Hardeep Singh Nijjar → Killing of Hardeep Singh Nijjar – WP:RMCM As part of the split discussion below, it was mentioned that the article should be renamed "Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar" due to that being the principal aspect of his notability. I think "death" is overly cautious in this case and under-descriptive. I propose the title of "Killing of Hardeep Singh Nijjar" as it isn't a contested fact that "he was shot and killed by two gunmen" https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66860510.amp "Who was Hardeep Singh Nijjar, the Sikh activist whose killing has divided Canada and India?" https://apnews.com/article/canada-india-sikh-trudeau-modi-nijjar-fb390e4a45d167711db4f96681edd0a2 Who Was the Man Whose Killing Canada Says India Instigated? https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/19/world/canada/who-is-hardeep-singh-nijjar-india.html Cavernousknoll ( talk) 01:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Cavernousknoll ( talk) 01:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Nowiki'd. We already have an active split discussion, just propose the alternate split target there. Too confusing to have simultaneous active split and move discussions. VQuakr ( talk) 01:24, 1 March 2024 (UTC) reply
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Hardeep_Singh_Nijjar&oldid=1220822675"

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