This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
While I have never actually seen any article that focuses specifically and exclusively on the Guru Chela Dynamic, I started this article with the belief that this dynamic is so fundamental to Hinduism that it is high time that it be documented and discussed. I am not as well qualified of an expert on Hinduism as I would like to be, and as such, I hope that other more highly qualified editors might eventually be able to fix any of my mistakes or oversights, and to upgrade and improve this article. I personally believe that this topic ought to make an article worthy of Wiki.
Scott P. 03:26, July 30, 2005 (UTC)
I am listing below improvements I see are needed. Feel free to add your own.
≈ jossi ≈ 03:43, July 30, 2005 (UTC)
Hi Scott
Shri Hedge is correct, it should be 'Shishya' rather than 'chela'. In Hindu culture, one always refers to 'Guru - Shishya Parampara' or the teacher - disciple tradition. Like the word 'Guru', 'Shishya' is a Sanskrit word. Rather than search google for chela / shishya individually, search for 'guru shishya' / 'guru chela' and check the results. Here are a few URLs you may find useful:
http://www.experiencefestival.com/guru-shishya_system http://www.itcsra.org/sra_story/sra_story_guru/sra_story_guru_index.html
By the way, there is no language called 'Hindustani'. 'Stan' (ideally, 'sthan') means 'location', and thus literally, 'Hindustani' means someone who stays in Hindustan (India). The national language of India is 'Hindi' and it is sometimes referred to as 'Hindustani', but the usage would be incorrect. Mostly, 'Hindustani' is used to seperate North Indian classical music (where Hindi is predominantly spoken) from Carnatic (southern part of India) style of classical music. You may find question # 3 from http://www.itcsra.org/sra_faq_index.html useful here...
Shailesh 15:17, July 31, 2005 User:59.95.2.150
Hello Scott
You get 10 / 10 for your power of deduction! , Yes, I am from Pune, (located in the state of Maharashtra) in the western part of India.
Maybe you should have tried this URL first:
http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/hindustani
Hindustani Adjective
1. Of or relating to or characteristic of Hindustan or its people or language.
Noun
1. A native or inhabitant of Hindustan or India.
2. A form of Hindi spoken around Delhi.
That definition seems to put things in proper perspective. In the western part, 'Hindustani' is more synonomus with either 'from Hindustan' or classical music.
Coming back to the main point, check out this URL:
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Chela/id/69015
This definition points out the subtle difference between a 'chela' and a 'shishya' and seems apt. Even in India, (at least western India :-)) when we say 'chela', it is mostly with sarcastic / derogatory overtones. e.g. "Oh him? He is just a chela of that guy."
So hope the shishyas win!
Regards
Shailesh.
p.s., er...you are not from Scotland, are you? ;-)
hi
i am wondering if the word chela should be changed to Shishya.
thanks,
Shri hedge 23:58, July 29, 2005
Admittedly, this article needs much work. Thanks for your very helpful and thoughtful suggestions Jossi and Shri Hegde. Tomorrow (Monday) I should be able to complete a significant rewrite of this article that will answer a few (though not most) of these good suggestions. Just thought you might want to know.
Sincerely,
Scott P. 12:57, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
I prefer the title guru-disciple relationship and I do not believe in Jossi's assertion that we, Westerners, were raised in a different culture and therefore can never understand and describe aspects of Hinduism, no matter how long and how intensely we followed various Hindu gurus and no matter how much we read and studied the subject. Of course some things are different, but we can learn and acknowledge the differences. I also refuse to make a distinction between "Western" and "Eastern" that I consider vague, artificial and based on ignorance. Andries 20:25, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
In regard to Westerners/non-Westerners, it is naive to assume that there are no differences in culture, worldview, etc. I am not saying that we Westeners are "ignorant". What I am saying is that a tradition of 5,000 years has an impact on conceptualization. What you consider "divine", the way that we in the West speak of "divinity" is a completely different thing for someone born in Indian culture. Nevertheless, Guru-disciple relationship could be a good title, although "tradition" may be a better one, given that it is a tradition of thousands of years, not an invention of the 21st century. ≈ jossi ≈ 16:34, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
Dear Gentlemen,
Over the last two days, a certain individual has arbitrarily moved this article four times without entering into a word of dialogue or agreement with anyone else. To the best of my understanding, Wiki was meant to be a place for collaboration, dialogue and agreement, and not a dictatorship. Please, before any more such moves, discuss, agree, collaborate, don't just move move move... without asking a soul. Thanks.
PS: Final major rewrite postponed to Tues AM, after that, it is my hope that we will be able to make further major edits via consensus, collaboration and agreement.
Scott P. 01:05, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
I favor the use of the word 'shishya' in the title as it seems to me that this word would serve to better clarify the marked differences between the Western word, 'disciple', and the Hindi word, 'shishya'. Hopefully by noting this difference from square one, we might start off on the right foot, so to speak. Outside of this one word change, I agree with the rest of the title as it now stands.
I am in the process of completing the major rewrite that I have promised, which I expect to post tonight sometime. Jossi, I apologize for the admittedly very scarce documentation in the original article. I promise to have far better documentation in tonight's major rewrite.
Thanks,
Scott P. 19:09, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
Overall this is a good effort, although it has some rough corners.
≈ jossi ≈ 23:37, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
≈ jossi ≈ 00:35, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
To all friends who have contributed on this Talk page thus far,
I would like to change the title of this article to Guru-shishya relationship, now that I have done what I would call my last major new-article-edit. Any comments or suggestions would be most appreciated.
Thanks,
Scott P. 00:20, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
Hi,
I know a lot of discussion has gone into place for changing the name from "Guru-shishya belief system" to "Guru-shishya tradition". Well, I would further suggest that the name be changed to "Guru-shishya parampara" which is more appropriate and is how it is exactly referred to by Hindus in India. It is also more complete. I am saying this for the same reasons for which you have not kept the title words as the "teacher-student" instead of "guru-shishya".
Also, I think the first line of the article is grammatically incorrect. It says ---> "The guru-shishya tradition (also guru-shishya parampara or lineage) is a spiritual relationship ..." How can a tradition be a relationship? I would suggest it be started as "The guru-shishya parampara is a spiritual tradition ..." -- Abahuguna 18:39, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Another thing that needs to be covered: Although I am not too familiar with Buddhism, I think that Tantric buddhism has gruru-disciple tradition as well. ≈ jossi ≈ 02:48, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
Dear Jossi,
Thought you might be interested in seeing where I learned the footnoting style I put in yesterday:
Thanks again for your most excellent upgrades to what started out as a fairly humdrum article.
Thanks, Scott. I have also asked a few other editors to take a look and they have added a few more pieces as well. I agree the article is getting there slowly, although there is still wortk to do. I am aware of the footnote style, but in our case, we are listing references, so I replaced it with the ref syntax. As for the "lists" in Wikipedia, I don't see much encyclopedic value on these... as they are sometime abused to bypass NPOV. ≈ jossi ≈ 18:41, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the addition of that essay, Andries. It will be a good idea to summarize some of his views and add to the article in the "Psychological aspects in a Western context". ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
[...] there is a genuine Western emphasis on the uniqueness and autonomy of the individual that contrasts sharply with Ramakrishna's emphasis on childlike faith and the Third Dalai Lama's injunction to see any failings in the guru as our own. But how can we reconcile the Western heritage of the uniqueness and autonomy of the individual with the loyalty, devotion, and faith needed to build the spiritual link with the guru? I suggest that understanding the role of psychological projection in laying the spiritual cable between guru and disciple can help us benefit from this relationship, guard us from some of its pitfalls, and reconcile our divergent cultural demands with those of the guru-disciple tradition.
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Parampara is only one aspect to the Guru-shishya tradition. Maybe we can merge Parampara into this article in its own section? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:19, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Guru–shishya tradition. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:51, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 13:28, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
While I have never actually seen any article that focuses specifically and exclusively on the Guru Chela Dynamic, I started this article with the belief that this dynamic is so fundamental to Hinduism that it is high time that it be documented and discussed. I am not as well qualified of an expert on Hinduism as I would like to be, and as such, I hope that other more highly qualified editors might eventually be able to fix any of my mistakes or oversights, and to upgrade and improve this article. I personally believe that this topic ought to make an article worthy of Wiki.
Scott P. 03:26, July 30, 2005 (UTC)
I am listing below improvements I see are needed. Feel free to add your own.
≈ jossi ≈ 03:43, July 30, 2005 (UTC)
Hi Scott
Shri Hedge is correct, it should be 'Shishya' rather than 'chela'. In Hindu culture, one always refers to 'Guru - Shishya Parampara' or the teacher - disciple tradition. Like the word 'Guru', 'Shishya' is a Sanskrit word. Rather than search google for chela / shishya individually, search for 'guru shishya' / 'guru chela' and check the results. Here are a few URLs you may find useful:
http://www.experiencefestival.com/guru-shishya_system http://www.itcsra.org/sra_story/sra_story_guru/sra_story_guru_index.html
By the way, there is no language called 'Hindustani'. 'Stan' (ideally, 'sthan') means 'location', and thus literally, 'Hindustani' means someone who stays in Hindustan (India). The national language of India is 'Hindi' and it is sometimes referred to as 'Hindustani', but the usage would be incorrect. Mostly, 'Hindustani' is used to seperate North Indian classical music (where Hindi is predominantly spoken) from Carnatic (southern part of India) style of classical music. You may find question # 3 from http://www.itcsra.org/sra_faq_index.html useful here...
Shailesh 15:17, July 31, 2005 User:59.95.2.150
Hello Scott
You get 10 / 10 for your power of deduction! , Yes, I am from Pune, (located in the state of Maharashtra) in the western part of India.
Maybe you should have tried this URL first:
http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/hindustani
Hindustani Adjective
1. Of or relating to or characteristic of Hindustan or its people or language.
Noun
1. A native or inhabitant of Hindustan or India.
2. A form of Hindi spoken around Delhi.
That definition seems to put things in proper perspective. In the western part, 'Hindustani' is more synonomus with either 'from Hindustan' or classical music.
Coming back to the main point, check out this URL:
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Chela/id/69015
This definition points out the subtle difference between a 'chela' and a 'shishya' and seems apt. Even in India, (at least western India :-)) when we say 'chela', it is mostly with sarcastic / derogatory overtones. e.g. "Oh him? He is just a chela of that guy."
So hope the shishyas win!
Regards
Shailesh.
p.s., er...you are not from Scotland, are you? ;-)
hi
i am wondering if the word chela should be changed to Shishya.
thanks,
Shri hedge 23:58, July 29, 2005
Admittedly, this article needs much work. Thanks for your very helpful and thoughtful suggestions Jossi and Shri Hegde. Tomorrow (Monday) I should be able to complete a significant rewrite of this article that will answer a few (though not most) of these good suggestions. Just thought you might want to know.
Sincerely,
Scott P. 12:57, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
I prefer the title guru-disciple relationship and I do not believe in Jossi's assertion that we, Westerners, were raised in a different culture and therefore can never understand and describe aspects of Hinduism, no matter how long and how intensely we followed various Hindu gurus and no matter how much we read and studied the subject. Of course some things are different, but we can learn and acknowledge the differences. I also refuse to make a distinction between "Western" and "Eastern" that I consider vague, artificial and based on ignorance. Andries 20:25, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
In regard to Westerners/non-Westerners, it is naive to assume that there are no differences in culture, worldview, etc. I am not saying that we Westeners are "ignorant". What I am saying is that a tradition of 5,000 years has an impact on conceptualization. What you consider "divine", the way that we in the West speak of "divinity" is a completely different thing for someone born in Indian culture. Nevertheless, Guru-disciple relationship could be a good title, although "tradition" may be a better one, given that it is a tradition of thousands of years, not an invention of the 21st century. ≈ jossi ≈ 16:34, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
Dear Gentlemen,
Over the last two days, a certain individual has arbitrarily moved this article four times without entering into a word of dialogue or agreement with anyone else. To the best of my understanding, Wiki was meant to be a place for collaboration, dialogue and agreement, and not a dictatorship. Please, before any more such moves, discuss, agree, collaborate, don't just move move move... without asking a soul. Thanks.
PS: Final major rewrite postponed to Tues AM, after that, it is my hope that we will be able to make further major edits via consensus, collaboration and agreement.
Scott P. 01:05, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
I favor the use of the word 'shishya' in the title as it seems to me that this word would serve to better clarify the marked differences between the Western word, 'disciple', and the Hindi word, 'shishya'. Hopefully by noting this difference from square one, we might start off on the right foot, so to speak. Outside of this one word change, I agree with the rest of the title as it now stands.
I am in the process of completing the major rewrite that I have promised, which I expect to post tonight sometime. Jossi, I apologize for the admittedly very scarce documentation in the original article. I promise to have far better documentation in tonight's major rewrite.
Thanks,
Scott P. 19:09, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
Overall this is a good effort, although it has some rough corners.
≈ jossi ≈ 23:37, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
≈ jossi ≈ 00:35, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
To all friends who have contributed on this Talk page thus far,
I would like to change the title of this article to Guru-shishya relationship, now that I have done what I would call my last major new-article-edit. Any comments or suggestions would be most appreciated.
Thanks,
Scott P. 00:20, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
Hi,
I know a lot of discussion has gone into place for changing the name from "Guru-shishya belief system" to "Guru-shishya tradition". Well, I would further suggest that the name be changed to "Guru-shishya parampara" which is more appropriate and is how it is exactly referred to by Hindus in India. It is also more complete. I am saying this for the same reasons for which you have not kept the title words as the "teacher-student" instead of "guru-shishya".
Also, I think the first line of the article is grammatically incorrect. It says ---> "The guru-shishya tradition (also guru-shishya parampara or lineage) is a spiritual relationship ..." How can a tradition be a relationship? I would suggest it be started as "The guru-shishya parampara is a spiritual tradition ..." -- Abahuguna 18:39, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Another thing that needs to be covered: Although I am not too familiar with Buddhism, I think that Tantric buddhism has gruru-disciple tradition as well. ≈ jossi ≈ 02:48, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
Dear Jossi,
Thought you might be interested in seeing where I learned the footnoting style I put in yesterday:
Thanks again for your most excellent upgrades to what started out as a fairly humdrum article.
Thanks, Scott. I have also asked a few other editors to take a look and they have added a few more pieces as well. I agree the article is getting there slowly, although there is still wortk to do. I am aware of the footnote style, but in our case, we are listing references, so I replaced it with the ref syntax. As for the "lists" in Wikipedia, I don't see much encyclopedic value on these... as they are sometime abused to bypass NPOV. ≈ jossi ≈ 18:41, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the addition of that essay, Andries. It will be a good idea to summarize some of his views and add to the article in the "Psychological aspects in a Western context". ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
[...] there is a genuine Western emphasis on the uniqueness and autonomy of the individual that contrasts sharply with Ramakrishna's emphasis on childlike faith and the Third Dalai Lama's injunction to see any failings in the guru as our own. But how can we reconcile the Western heritage of the uniqueness and autonomy of the individual with the loyalty, devotion, and faith needed to build the spiritual link with the guru? I suggest that understanding the role of psychological projection in laying the spiritual cable between guru and disciple can help us benefit from this relationship, guard us from some of its pitfalls, and reconcile our divergent cultural demands with those of the guru-disciple tradition.
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Parampara is only one aspect to the Guru-shishya tradition. Maybe we can merge Parampara into this article in its own section? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:19, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Guru–shishya tradition. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:51, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 13:28, 1 March 2023 (UTC)