This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
Note: an earlier proposal to merge UBC into GSL was closed as no consensus. However, the two articles have evolved since then, especially the UBC article.
Per WP:MERGEREASON, articles should be merged if "there are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there does not need to be a separate entry for every concept. For example, "flammable" and "non-flammable" can both be explained in an article on flammability."
The UBC article and the GSL article overlap almost entirely. Right now, " private sale loophole" appears in both pages in boldface - it seems more analogous to GSL, but redirects to UBC. The only difference is that the "UBC" article applies to all private sales, and we have danced around other private sales on the GSL page by artificially limiting its scope to private sales at gun shows. Note that each article links to the other as a "main article" for one of its sections. Also note that any and all UBC proposals would close the GSL.
Other parties agree that the two terms have a huge overlap:
Merging the two articles is the right thing to do, and will improve the encyclopedia. Faceless Enemy ( talk) 01:47, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
So where do we draw the line between the two articles? Is one about current law and the other about proposed legislation? Or do we have a cutoff date? Faceless Enemy ( talk) 04:09, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
[1] This reference is already in the Overview and in the Lead. It does not belong in the Recent Developments section. Please revert/delete, @ Rickpa66: -- Darknipples ( talk) 19:04, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
I have done a modest, partial rewrite of the lead section. ( Old version, new version, diff.) I believe that the new version of the lead is a substantial improvement, and significantly clarifies the subject, while not actually adding or removing all that much material. It would be nice if other editors would take some time to assess this change, calmly and with an open mind, and not revert it merely because they didn't write it themselves. — Mudwater ( Talk) 14:36, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
I believe this report is also responsible for the "40% of all guns bought in the US are sold without a background check.." quote. Any thoughts? Darknipples ( talk) 00:07, 28 July 2015 (UTC) Additional citation [3] Darknipples ( talk) 05:48, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
GSL is not just about guns that were bought at gun shows. Also, this article does not mention the words GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE, not even in context to the quote cited. Maybe try reading the article a bit more to see why it's purview includes "sales or tranfers that do not include background checks". Darknipples ( talk) 08:32, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
In response to Godsy's previous statement...
This is why Godsy's edits concern me. The GSL article can always be improved, but I draw the line at setting double standards for quoting a source that doesn't speak directly to the article's political concept, yet is used to mention offhand data speaking points for only one preferred political perspective. Not only that, when I tried to add balance using the same source in the same manner, I got rev/deled, and here we are... Darknipples ( talk) 21:12, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
(1) Perhaps the name of the article should be changed to "Background checks for firearms sales in the United States". That seems to be the actual subject of the article. It's not limited to gun shows, and it's not a loophole either. (2) "60% of firearms were bought via retail, hence 40% had no background check necessary (non-retail)". This statement is blatantly incorrect, since, as the article says, "17 states and Washington, D.C. do require background checks for some or all private firearm sales". In general the lead section needs to emphasize more that background checks are not required for private sales under federal law, but some states do require them. As currently written the lead is misleading on this important point. — Mudwater ( Talk) 23:38, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
@ Godsy: I'm pretty sure I'm the one that started this talk section after this cite was duplicated in the lead. When it was again duplicated in the body, I left it, and tried to add more from the source, but you decided rev/deleting via a double standard was a priority. As far as getting this to RSN, I'll make sure it gets done today, I didn't realize I was bound to any specific deadline, as no one had given any. Darknipples ( talk) 16:05, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Link to RSN [6] Darknipples ( talk) 17:01, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Additional cited source already used in GSL article (Highlighted on P. 4) [7] Previously mentioned citation regarding the same 40% figure. [8] Darknipples ( talk) 20:19, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
I realize RSN is still currently active, but after speaking with the other editors I'd like to concede the 40% figure, and ask what objections any of us would have, if any, to simply adding the entire context, like so...."...among State inmates possessing a gun, fewer than 2% bought their firearm at a flea market or gun show, about 12% from a retail store or pawnshop, and 80% from family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source." - P.1 [9] - (as the first paragraph of the section currently reads) "In 1996, the Violence Policy Center (VPC) said that an increase in gun shows resulted in "a readily available source of weapons and ammunition for a wide variety of criminals...."[23] Analyzing data from 1997, the National Institute of Justice released a report saying that among State inmates who owned a gun, fewer than 2 percent bought them at a flea market or gun show.[24] Attorney and gun rights advocate Dave Kopel said "gun shows are no 'loophole' in the federal laws," and that singling out guns shows was "the first step toward abolishing all privacy regarding firearms and implementing universal gun registration."[25]" Darknipples ( talk) 06:43, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
This first statement in this section "In 1996, the Violence Policy Center (VPC) said that an increase in gun shows resulted in...." isn't accurate according to it's context (see quote on the "introduction page" just after/below the 8th bullet point). If you read the context, it's actually referring, more specifically, to the passage of FOPA. [10]. It is then corroborated by the NRA citation in the "Early efforts" section that says "Attorney and gun rights advocate Dave Kopel said...[28]" - "(The main reason for the growth in gun shows in the last decade and a half is that the Firearm Owners Protection Act provided for licensed firearms dealers to conduct business at gun shows in addition to selling from their storefronts.)" [11] (See the quote in the 11th paragraph from the top, third sentence). I think a more accurate and comprehensive context is in order, one that essentially picks up where the "Background" section left off. Here is a suggested edit.
[15] p. 262 "The VPC study points out that both convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh as well as Branch Davidian leader David Koresh frequented gun shows and were able to stock-pile weapons by making such legalized purchases at gun shows. Opponents to gun show legislation point to a Justice Department study in which arrested persons were asked where they had obtained their guns." [16] "That redefinition of what it meant to be "engaged in the business" of selling firearms opened up what came to be known as the "gun show loophole," in which private sellers ultimately were able to circumvent paperwork and background-check requirements imposed on licensees."(located about half way through the article) Darknipples ( talk) 23:57, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
The GA nominator has been banned by arbcom, are there any other active editors willing to take on the review? Winner 42 Talk to me! 20:46, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Godsy: Why so eager to fail the article? Doesn't seem very AGF to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong. I'd be happy to help if someone would refer me to how to do the review. Darknipples ( talk) 00:58, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
I'd also like to note the timing of Winner42's new section regarding the GA review was only 24 hours prior to @ QuilaBird:'s & @ Godsy:'s NPOV tag on the article. I'm trying to AGF, but I have to say, it seems a bit too coincidental. Darknipples ( talk) 01:42, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Zwerg Nase ( talk · contribs) 07:58, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
On it!
Zwerg Nase (
talk) 07:58, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Darknipples, Mudwater: It is hard for me to review this while it undergoes heavy changes. Any end in sight? Zwerg Nase ( talk) 13:12, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Zwerg Nase: The POV tag issue seems resolved. If not, I'm not sure where it could possibly go. I will continue sorting things until I know for sure, so I'm going to work probably until tonight. I've never gone through a GA review, and I'd appreciate any guidance that disambiguates the process and what you need from us. Thanks. Darknipples ( talk) 16:44, 22 September 2015 (UTC) OK, I can't see anything else I'd like to tweak, barring some unforeseen important news regarding GSL I'm done for a while. What now? Darknipples ( talk) 21:00, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
Heads up @ Zwerg Nase:, this has gone to Administration [17] -- Darknipples ( talk) 21:59, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Zwerg Nase: Will this affect the review in any way? Any details you can provide are appreciated, even if some of us are more concerned with the title than the actual article status. Darknipples ( talk) 21:43, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
No worries, Zwerg, take your time, I just know that constant changes can fail the article, but not specifically what kind of changes counts against receiving GA status. Darknipples ( talk) 18:27, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Finally on it. These are the things I believe should be adressed:
Optional: Any chance to get more images into the article? Maybe a photo of one of the prominent persons mentioned?
I am putting this on hold for the moment. The nominators have seven days to adress the issues. Zwerg Nase ( talk) 09:37, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Optional: Any chance to get more images into the article? Maybe a photo of one of the prominent persons mentioned? Done Darknipples ( talk) 20:33, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Zwerg Nase, Mudwater, Capitalismojo, Faceless Enemy, QuilaBird, Dennis Brown, Godsy, Callanecc, Winner 42, NE ENT, Cullen328, and DESiegel: (Anyone that can help) The recent ANI discussion over the Gun show loophole article title has been "archived with no resolution". Shall we continue with the GA review, or no? [18] Does there need to be a POV tag placed over title concerns per Mudwater's request's and "Opposing editor's" concern's? Also, the outstanding issue of whether "Background checks on firearms sales in the United States" is the proper title, or not? -- Darknipples ( talk) 05:57, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
There is no reply to my question on how to go ahead with the unresolved matter. I will therefore not hold it against you, if anyone has a problem with it, they can feel free to reasses the article at any time. A problem I have left now are two ref-errors that occur, the errors I get are:
Can you take care of that? Zwerg Nase ( talk) 15:34, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Darknipples, no need to get angry, everyone can feel free to chip in. As for the tags left:
Zwerg Nase ( talk) 14:55, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Then it's just the tags in the last section left standing in the way. Zwerg Nase ( talk) 20:50, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
It should be noted that I take specific issue with regard to these edits [24], and [25]. Replacing reports by the ATF with, albeit neutrally worded POVs, seems counter-intuitive in my view. Darknipples ( talk) 06:26, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
So far, Godsy has not deleted my revert on this issue. Hopefully, moving forward, they will discuss it first, before reverting. Darknipples ( talk) 23:00, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Edits made to the lead. I condensed it back down to 3 paragraphs and removed some minor details already mentioned in the body. [26] -- Darknipples ( talk) 07:04, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Godsy, did you quote this from the article [27]? If so, please share the exact quote, and or, location within the cite. If not, it may considered WP:SYNTH WP:UNDUE. Darknipples ( talk) 22:36, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Weeks after the Columbine shooting, Frank Lautenberg introduced a proposal to close the gun show loophole in federal law. It was passed in the Senate, but did not pass in the House. Gun control advocates wanted to extend the background check requirement to nonlicensed firearms sellers at gun shows, too.Frank Lautenberg's proposal would have done this according to the wording, so what does that sentence add without my addition (simply stating they supported it, if that's even necessary, it could be done in a better manner)? What part of the source is that sentence corresponding to before my expansion?— Godsy( TALK CONT) 00:49, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Point taken. Darknipples ( talk) 00:12, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Godsy, instead of turning this [36] into an edit war, let's discuss it's WP:Weight. As far as prose, i.e. WP:MOS, I don't see where it applies to the extent of exclusion. Darknipples ( talk) 22:46, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Godsy, please address the "contradiction tag" that you have placed as a result of your overhaul. Please explain what you think needs to happen here. The issue of "too many citations" seems easily addressed, as most of them seem to be some duplication. Darknipples ( talk) 22:58, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
18 U.S. states and Washington, D.C., require background checks at gun shows.≠ According to a 2013 report,
seven states require background checks on all gun sales at gun shows: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, New York, Oregon, and Rhode Island. Four require background checks on all handgun purchases at gun shows: Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. Six require individuals to obtain a permit that involves a background check to purchase handguns: Iowa, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska, and North Carolina. The remaining 33 states do not place additional restrictions on the private sales of firearms.
Your response included a reference to policy, making it much easier to see your point. I will address this issue and remove the tags when I am done. If you still find it unacceptable, please make the changes you feel are required so that we can finish by the deadline. Darknipples ( talk) 21:23, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
This reference seems WP:UNDUE in terms of being "notable".
I've removed it, pending any objections Darknipples ( talk) 05:56, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
In order to speed things up and hopefully save some of Zwerg's time, I'd like to address [42] Godsy's currently suggested version [43]. They have stated, it..."would be much better regardless of whether it met a certain quality rating." And that..."Articles about controversial subjects, ought to be simply described (stealing some words there from a Wikipedian I respect); instead they're often filled with unneeded content which leads to more unneeded content being added for balance and so on and so forth." While I might agree this is a profound insight, I am compelled by WP:POLICY, and the importance of discussion and consensus, to state my objection to these edits on the basis of previously mentioned policies, here. I will link this discussion to the article TP, for any other involved editors. Darknipples ( talk) 08:04, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
BTW, in response to the statement regarding "Articles about controversial subjects", I would point out that Wikipedia is not censored, and that "it is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all comers; it is our job to be fair to all sides of a controversy" as per WP:CONTROVERSY...This may seem overly bureaucratic to some, but it's been the only constant guide most editors, like myself, have been able to rely on in order to navigate Wikipedia in many ways. Darknipples ( talk) 08:35, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
...what have I gotten into here? To make it short: I went over the most current version and found several things I feel need fixing:
In my opinion, the article could pass pending these changes, but only if all edit conflicts are resolved! If I don't see this article being stable over the next 24 hours, I will fail this review. You would then be welcome to resolve your issues and nominate it again when the article has reached a safisfactory level of stability. Zwerg Nase ( talk) 12:52, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
OK, so I am going to pass this now, since it meets GA criteria in my opinion, seeing that edits the past few days have been constructive. I will however keep an eye on this. Thank you for all your work! Zwerg Nase ( talk) 17:34, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Any reason why we shouldn't add this to the list in the legislation section? [44] [45] [46] (more...) [47] Darknipples ( talk) 05:20, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Godsy:, please discuss your reasons for adding this tag instead of discussing it on the talk page first. Seeing as though this term is almost twenty years old and still sees quite a bit of publication, I feel this is unwarranted in this case according to the ten-year test [48]. It's notability [49] has continually been proven by reports and publications over decades leading up to current events, including legislation, of which, you are quite obviously aware [50]. Please share your solution as to how we should balance the article chronologically, and why you feel this tag is necessary. Perhaps we should use this... {{ expert-subject}} Darknipples ( talk) 16:49, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Godsy: I respectfully ask you to reconsider your deletion of material from my previous edit [51]. Do note that this author is not the only reliable source regarding this particular view by Bush (4th paragraph from the bottom) [52] (quote) But his spokesman, McClellan, said Bush "has consistently supported closing the gun show loophole for a number of years." As for why he did not back Danburg's bill--which would have angered the gun lobby here--McClellan said Bush thinks it is up to Congress to deal with the loophole. "Federal legislation created it," McClellan said. "Federal legislation should close it." If you like you can take it to RSN, but at least respond here. Furthermore, the "manner" in which it is attributed (to Scott McClellan) is not WP:OR, so what is the issue here exactly? Darknipples ( talk) 01:21, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
Bush justifies those positions as narrow disagreements over jurisdiction. Background checks are a good idea, he says, but because federal law created the gun-show loophole, federal law ought to correct it. That's why he didn't back Danburg's bill, says his spokesman Scott McClellan.
I wholly disagree, but I'm trying to pick my battles and avoid edit wars. Let's see what RSN says. Darknipples ( talk) 18:58, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
Link to RSN [54] Darknipples ( talk) 19:25, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Godsy: Here's a suggested compromise from RSN..."In a 2000 Rolling Stone / Washington Post Article, Bush's spokesman, Scott McClellan, said Bush's position was that the loophole could only be closed by federal legislation since the loophole was a byproduct of previous federal legislation." Is that acceptable enough for you? Darknipples ( talk) 19:59, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
I have a cite that would seem to put the NRA's current view into perspective. I'm asking if anyone has any suggestions on how to include this as a courtesy. Please AGF. [59] "The National Rifle Association has strongly objected to universal background checks — among other things, the group argues that only 10 percent of guns are purchased on the secondary market. (The NRA also disputes the idea that the current law amounts to a "gun-show loophole," pointing out that many of the people selling at gun shows are federally licensed dealers.)" -- (edit - adding entire context of NRA position) Darknipples ( talk) 07:23, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
What is the relevance of this to GSL? [60] (reference used from article in Bold text)
For one thing, GSL isn't mentioned anywhere in the article. It does talk about background checks but it's only in reference state laws which may or may not have passed. Can anyone explain it's weight or notability with regard to the GSL article? If anyone objects to it's exclusion please state your case or take it to RSN. Darknipples ( talk) 22:02, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
[62] I have pulled 3 of the 5 cites that were added recently [63]. I was able to substitute this one [64] with [65], as they are nearly identical in context. Please also note that I was able to keep all original statements and references in the paragraph, with original and additional cites already in the body. (Here are the issues I have with them.)
1. [66] The Washington Times "The gun show loophole myth" Retrieved September 13, 2015. Op-Ed piece. Also, I was able to find a similar news article from the same source released within 24 hrs of the original.)
2. "What's the Deal with Gun Show Loopholes?" Gun Talk TV. Retrieved September 13, 2015. (I've never heard of this source, and there aren't any WP articles regarding "Gun Talk TV" that I could see upon doing a quick search.)
3. [67] MRCTV's Dan Joseph Demolishes the Left's 'Gun Show Loophole' Myth", TheBlaze. "We Already Do That!". Retrieved September 13, 2015. (This story was actually produced by Media Research Center (MRCTV). MRC's mission is to "prove—through sound scientific research—that liberal bias in the media does exist and undermines traditional American values and to neutralize what they perceive as liberal bias in mainstream media." It has also received criticism [68] with regard to selective use of evidence.
In the meantime I have taken the liberty of sending these to RSN for some impartial opinions. (LINK) [69] - Darknipples ( talk) 07:44, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
Current status seems to have "changed" recently. Can anyone tell if they upheld background checks for private firearm sales? It seems to have enough weight to mention in RECENT DEVELOPMENTS, since it's already linked in the lead "17 states and Washington, D.C. do require background checks..." I don't think it needs mentioning in LEGISLATIVE.
1. (TheHill)Court strikes down DC gun regs in mixed ruling [70] "In a 2-1 decision Friday, a three-member panel of judges on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit upheld the city’s requirements that force gun owners to register long guns, get fingerprinted, photographed and appear in person when registering a gun, pay a registration fee and complete a firearms safety and training course."
2. (WaPo) [71]"The U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit today ruled that several parts of the District’s gun registration law violate the Second Amendment. The court held the following provisions unconstitutional:"
At the same time, the court upheld other requirements, including that gun owners be fingerprinted and photographed.
3. (AP & ABC)"In a mixed decision... The U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit ruled 2-1 that the city cannot ban gun owners from registering more than one pistol per month or require owners to re-register a gun every three years. The court also invalidated requirements that owners make a personal appearance to register a gun and pass a test about firearms laws. But the court upheld other parts of the law, such as requiring that so-called long guns — including rifles and shotguns — be registered along with handguns. The ruling also allows gun owners to be fingerprinted and photographed, pay certain fees and complete a firearms safety training course." [72] Darknipples ( talk) 16:27, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
I researched back and saw that this popped up, but didn't receive much discussion. The title refers to a loophole, which according to Wikipedia itself is "used to circumvent or otherwise avoid the intent, implied or explicitly stated, of the system." No background checks on private sales is the current intended policy of the government of the US. Attempts have been made to enact universal background checks ("close the loophole"), but they have been rejected, continuing the intended policy of no private-sale background checks.
Simply: It can't be a loophole if that's the system operating as intended. Some people objecting to the state of the law does not make it a loophole. Wikipedia is left with contradictory content.
The term "loophole" is also generally considered pejorative, implying that the action is bad, and that something in the law needs to be fixed to close the loophole. This is the point of view of the gun control side of the debate in the US, while the gun rights side does no believe anything needs to be changed. Thus, the title violates NPOV by supporting one point of view over the other.
I suggest the title change as previously discussed. It should be mentioned that the gun control side of the debate calls the intended lack of private sale background checks the "gun show loophole," but a non-descriptive, NPOV-violating term shouldn't be the title. QuilaBird ( talk) 13:34, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.
@ QuilaBird: As @ Altenmann: said, absence of policy is not a policy. The failure of a proposed bill for a form of universal background checks is not in any way explicit evidence of "policy". Not only that, you are ignoring the evidence to the contrary, A.K.A the bill itself. You still haven't presented any new citations, and you are still using Original Research. I suggest we all decide which form of dispute resolution/mediation to use in this matter right away, as it's already been over a week and the GA review has been started. Tags such as the NPOV are not meant as a permanent solution for editors that take issue. This article needs to move past this....AGAIN. (Pinging other editors as a reminder.) @ Capitalismojo: @ Godsy: @ Faceless Enemy: @ Mudwater: Darknipples ( talk) 20:13, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
The term "loophole" as defined in Wikipedia centers on the fact that the result is unintended by those who create the system. If the status quo was not the intent of the government, meaning this is a loophole, then the bill would have been passed. But it was rejected, defining the status quo as the intent of the government, thus the status quo cannot be a loophole by Wikipedia's own definition. It's as simple as that. QuilaBird ( talk) 19:44, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
Yes, the question of the name of this article keeps coming up. That's because the article title is inherently biased and violates the Neutral Point Of View policy. The phrase "gun show loophole" is used exclusively by those advocating a pro-gun-control agenda. Gun rights advocates don't use the term at all, and in fact sometimes argue against the use of the term, as in this Washington Times article from 2013: "The Gun Show Loophole is a Myth". — Mudwater ( Talk) 02:37, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Darknipples: as you've previously pointed out to me on this talk page, private sales were explicitly addressed and exempted from the normal FFL licensing and recordkeeping requirements in FOPA '86 ("...but such term [firearms dealer] shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, of purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.") Background checks for gun sales didn't exist in 1986, of course, but none of the various background check laws passed since then have changed that provision of the law. Faceless Enemy ( talk) 13:53, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Altenmann: @ Capitalismojo: @ Godsy: @ QuilaBird: @ Faceless Enemy: @ Mudwater: Which type of mediation would you prefer in order to resolve this topic [75]? I can start it and post the link here, but we need to get this resolved, once and for all. Darknipples ( talk) 20:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
{{re|user1|user2|user3|user4}}
in this manner, with a limit of 7 users. Regards,—
Godsy(
TALK
CONT) 23:24, 2 September 2015 (UTC)I'm going to paraphrase and reiterate the previous post in this section, to further bring it to the attention of interested editors. Darknipples has posted about this disagreement at the Neutral Point of View noticeboard. Here's the link, spelled out: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#NPOV Title Gun show loophole. What's likely to happen now is that there will be a further discussion there, about whether or not the title of the article, "Gun show loophole", violates WP:POVNAMING or WP:POVTITLE. Feel free to participate in the discussion there. P.S. to D.N.: I think posting there was the right choice. — Mudwater ( Talk) 23:20, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
When the subject of an article is referred to mainly by a single common name, as evidenced through usage in a significant majority of English-language reliable sources, Wikipedia generally follows the sources and uses that name as its article title (subject to the other naming criteria). Sometimes that common name includes non-neutral words that Wikipedia normally avoids (e.g. the Boston Massacre or the Teapot Dome scandal). In such cases, the prevalence of the name, or the fact that a given description has effectively become a proper noun (and that proper noun has become the usual term for the event), generally overrides concern that Wikipedia might appear as endorsing one side of an issue.In view of this, I found that not only were gun-control advocates calling this the "gun show loophole" but so were their opponents. For example, I Googled the term "gun show loophole -Wikipedia" and received over half a million hits -- strongly suggesting that it is a common term. A random review of hits from the first two pages showed that both those proposing, and those opposing, change to certain laws were using the term "loophole" to refer to the subject of this article. Regarding the above claim (earlier) that using "loophole" is essentially a weasel word, I don't think it is. A "loophole" in a law is an exception to that particular law, or portion of it. While it sometimes has a negative connotation (and in this case, certain moral entrepreneurss would love to exploit any such connotation when it comes to firearms), it also often means "exception" or something similar. Now, as is noted elsewhere, there is not an actual "exception" or "loophole" in that the same laws apply at gun shows as apply elsewhere, but the appearance of such a loophole comes about because, to the layperson (or lay reporter), private sales at a gun show look different than other private sales of firearms, and it "feels" like they should be regulated the same as sales by a licensed dealer. Compound this with the fact that licensed dealers also sell at gun shows, and must still follow all the same laws they have to follow in their stores, and you end up with a muddled mess. For those who might wonder about my own biases in this issue, I oppose federal laws regarding gun ownership or sales, believing that states should be free to decide what works best in their state. What's needed in California isn't necessarily what's needed in Alaska, and what's needed in Texas isn't necessarily what's needed in New York. The "loophole" doesn't need to be closed at the federal level, and Wikipedia is not taking sides in the issue by referring to the issue as the Gun show loophole. Etamni | ✉ | ✓ 04:45, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
As I said before, the article title is inherently biased and violates the Neutral Point Of View policy. The phrase "gun show loophole" is a pejorative term (i.e. a term with negative connotations) used by gun control advocates to promote their position. Gun rights advocates don't use the term at all, and often argue against the use of the term. Etamni said, I Googled the term "gun show loophole -Wikipedia" and received over half a million hits -- strongly suggesting that it is a common term. A random review of hits from the first two pages showed that both those proposing, and those opposing, change to certain laws were using the term "loophole" to refer to the subject of this article. I'm not seeing that at all. Here are the first two pages of hits that I'm getting when doing a Google search of "gun show loophole" (without the "Wikipedia"), excluding ads, and excluding the first hit which is the Wikipedia article itself. (Yes, the term is widely used, and sometimes used by news organizations and others without an obvious dog in the fight, but that doesn't change the fact that it violates NPOV by being inherently biased towards a pro-gun control position.)
— Mudwater ( Talk) 15:49, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
My two cents:
1) The term "loophole" is inherently loaded language. As
Altenmann pointed out, "loophole" deals with the intent of the law. And, as
Mudwater pointed out, the real world use of the term is very loaded, with one side calling it a loophole every chance they get, and the other side rejecting the term "loophole" completely.
2) The term "loophole" is a misnomer. As
Darknipples has pointed out, and as multiple reliable sources attest, private sales were very explicitly addressed in the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986, and were exempted from the recordkeeping and licensing requirements for commercial sales. It's my understanding that that section of FOPA was a response to ATF policies that Congress felt were overly broad (as in they defined many people as gun dealers who needed to be licensed).
3) However, as I understand the article title policy, "Common name" takes precedence over "neutral" or "accurate". If gun control advocates have managed to define this particular part of the gun debate in their terms, then coverage in reliable sources (and therefore, Wikipedia) is going to reflect that. A more accurate and neutral title for this particular concept would be "private sale exemption", but that seems to be in much less common use (~71k hits on Google for "gun show loophole" versus ~10k hits for "private sale exemption" + gun). I don't know what the balance has to be before they're both considered common names, but by gut feeling is that a 7–1 ratio is enough to override the neutrality concerns. (Maybe I'm wrong? Anyone else care to chime in with how Wikipedia has dealt with other contentious titles?) Therefore, as long as this article remains focused only on this single concept, "gun show loophole" appears to be the title that is least inconsistent with Wikipedia policy.
Faceless Enemy (
talk) 02:08, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
@
Etamni,
Mudwater,
Faceless Enemy,
Godsy,
Capitalismojo, and
Altenmann:
[97]. So far, the impartial consensus has been to keep the title as is. Beyond that, this same issue had the same result the last time the
WP:POVTITLE issue was raised months ago
[98]. The topic is now redundant
[99] after being repeatedly discussed,
again and again, with arguably all the same outcomes. Despite all of these discussions,
QuilaBird has stated that title-related issues "didn't receive much discussion" in their view. Really...? Continuously raising the same issue again isn't helpful and doesn't change the past, or present consensus' to keep the title as is. The POV tag has been up for almost a month now, and no new arguments to change it have been introduced for 10 months, let alone a 10 days ago. Unless someone has something truly new to bring to the discussion, with citations, I am asking ALL opposing editors here to drop the
WP:STICK, and allow the GA review to proceed (remove POV tag) upon the current impartial consensus. Please see "POV template use-section" (2) below in reference to my request. I also suggest adding {{
Round in circles}}
coupled with a FAQ subpage shown through ({{
FAQ}}
) to the top of the talk page, gathering together and linking all the previous discussions, results and appropriate summaries.
Darknipples (
talk) 10:43, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
As noted above, I've been asked to summarize the discussion. In reviewing what has been said here and all relevant policies, and prior discussions that have been linked here, as well as the brief discussion at NPOV Noticeboard, I do not believe that any summary and close, at this time, will resolve this issue, given that it has been raised numerous times, in numerous forums, just over the past year, and I believe that this pattern will continue. The issue needs to be resolved in a manner that meets Wikipedia policies and, hopefully, will allow editors to be more productive with their time on Wikipedia.
In order to reach that end, I reviewed a policy that appears to have been overlooked in the above discussion: WP:Article titles has a specific provision that may be applicable here, which is Non-judgmental descriptive titles and can be found at shortcut WP:NDESC. The opening sentence of this policy section states, "In some cases a descriptive phrase (such as Restoration of the Everglades) is best as the title. These are often invented specifically for articles, and should reflect a neutral point of view, rather than suggesting any editor's opinions." (Emphasis mine, internal links omitted). So I am going to again suggest Private sale exemption as a neutral title for the article. This title does not use any non-neutral words; it does not use peacock or weasel words; it does not disparage any point of view; it does not suggest an official stance by Wikipedia regarding the subject of the article -- in short, it appears to be a neutral term. I recognize that the article is written around the title gun show loophole and that changing the title will necessarily affect some of the article content. I do not believe that the challenges this introduces will be insurmountable. I also recognize that there is a competing policy at WP:TITLECHANGES which directs editors not to invent names or use extremely uncommon names as a way of compromising between viewpoints. This contradiction between these two policies means that editors need to apply the rules of common sense to the situation.
If the proposed title is rejected, and I were to close the discussion, then my closing summary would be as follows: Editors conducted a policy-based discussion of the term Gun show loophole. While there was recognition that the title may not be neutral, editors were unable to form a consensus regarding an alternative title. Keeping the discussion open is disruptive. Therefore, the discussion is closed with no consensus. Interpreting WP:NOCONSENSUS in this situation, the result of a no consensus close is that the article title should not be changed. Furthermore, I am going to recommend that the involved editors agree to not raise this issue again for at least one year. I am also going to recommend that someone place a notice at the top of the talk page with links to this discussion and prior discussions of this issue, with a caution about raising this issue again, especially within the next year.
Finally, I would be comfortable formally closing this discussion as a non-admin, but am concerned that some parties may feel I was too involved in the earlier discussion. Given that both the suggested title change, and leaving the title as is, were suggested by me previously, I am not confident that all involved will accept such a closure from me in this case, so I will defer the actual closing to someone less involved than I was. Etamni | ✉ | ✓ 10:18, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Well, there have been some interesting recent discussions about the title of the article, here, and also at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Opposing editors refuse to WP:dropthestick over Gun show loophole title NPOV tag. But I have to say, my views have not changed. I still think that the article name "Gun show loophole" violates the WP:NPOV policy, and that the article should be renamed per WP:NDESC, to "Background checks for firearm sales in the United States". But, at this point I'm not sure how to proceed. Someone could resubmit the article as a requested move -- there was one of those already, which can be reviewed at Talk:Gun show loophole/Archive 3#Requested move 29 January 2015. Or someone could put the {{ POV}} tag back on the article -- but that was just taken off, after no one continued the discussion about why it should be left on. So, yeah. What next? Speaking for myself, I'm going to ponder this further. For the moment, I don't have anything further to add, either to this discussion or to the article itself. If and when I have something further to say, I'll post again. — Mudwater ( Talk) 00:10, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
IMO, looking at this giant wall of text makes it very hard to decipher what rules and objections are being referenced or argued. So, I've decided to use bullet-points to help refocus and clarify the issues being raised in regard to the POV title tag. Once we have finished the list, and determined which rules are allegedly being violated, and why, I will add it to NPOVN. The list is in no particular order. Feel free to make suggestions and requests in this section, but do not use it for debate, keep that in the above "Title not consistent with Wikipedia, NPOV" section... Darknipples ( talk) 05:06, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Here is the link to Template:POV.
This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. This template may be removed whenever any one of the following is true:
Darknipples ( talk) 01:00, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
Note: an earlier proposal to merge UBC into GSL was closed as no consensus. However, the two articles have evolved since then, especially the UBC article.
Per WP:MERGEREASON, articles should be merged if "there are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there does not need to be a separate entry for every concept. For example, "flammable" and "non-flammable" can both be explained in an article on flammability."
The UBC article and the GSL article overlap almost entirely. Right now, " private sale loophole" appears in both pages in boldface - it seems more analogous to GSL, but redirects to UBC. The only difference is that the "UBC" article applies to all private sales, and we have danced around other private sales on the GSL page by artificially limiting its scope to private sales at gun shows. Note that each article links to the other as a "main article" for one of its sections. Also note that any and all UBC proposals would close the GSL.
Other parties agree that the two terms have a huge overlap:
Merging the two articles is the right thing to do, and will improve the encyclopedia. Faceless Enemy ( talk) 01:47, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
So where do we draw the line between the two articles? Is one about current law and the other about proposed legislation? Or do we have a cutoff date? Faceless Enemy ( talk) 04:09, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
[1] This reference is already in the Overview and in the Lead. It does not belong in the Recent Developments section. Please revert/delete, @ Rickpa66: -- Darknipples ( talk) 19:04, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
I have done a modest, partial rewrite of the lead section. ( Old version, new version, diff.) I believe that the new version of the lead is a substantial improvement, and significantly clarifies the subject, while not actually adding or removing all that much material. It would be nice if other editors would take some time to assess this change, calmly and with an open mind, and not revert it merely because they didn't write it themselves. — Mudwater ( Talk) 14:36, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
I believe this report is also responsible for the "40% of all guns bought in the US are sold without a background check.." quote. Any thoughts? Darknipples ( talk) 00:07, 28 July 2015 (UTC) Additional citation [3] Darknipples ( talk) 05:48, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
GSL is not just about guns that were bought at gun shows. Also, this article does not mention the words GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE, not even in context to the quote cited. Maybe try reading the article a bit more to see why it's purview includes "sales or tranfers that do not include background checks". Darknipples ( talk) 08:32, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
In response to Godsy's previous statement...
This is why Godsy's edits concern me. The GSL article can always be improved, but I draw the line at setting double standards for quoting a source that doesn't speak directly to the article's political concept, yet is used to mention offhand data speaking points for only one preferred political perspective. Not only that, when I tried to add balance using the same source in the same manner, I got rev/deled, and here we are... Darknipples ( talk) 21:12, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
(1) Perhaps the name of the article should be changed to "Background checks for firearms sales in the United States". That seems to be the actual subject of the article. It's not limited to gun shows, and it's not a loophole either. (2) "60% of firearms were bought via retail, hence 40% had no background check necessary (non-retail)". This statement is blatantly incorrect, since, as the article says, "17 states and Washington, D.C. do require background checks for some or all private firearm sales". In general the lead section needs to emphasize more that background checks are not required for private sales under federal law, but some states do require them. As currently written the lead is misleading on this important point. — Mudwater ( Talk) 23:38, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
@ Godsy: I'm pretty sure I'm the one that started this talk section after this cite was duplicated in the lead. When it was again duplicated in the body, I left it, and tried to add more from the source, but you decided rev/deleting via a double standard was a priority. As far as getting this to RSN, I'll make sure it gets done today, I didn't realize I was bound to any specific deadline, as no one had given any. Darknipples ( talk) 16:05, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Link to RSN [6] Darknipples ( talk) 17:01, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Additional cited source already used in GSL article (Highlighted on P. 4) [7] Previously mentioned citation regarding the same 40% figure. [8] Darknipples ( talk) 20:19, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
I realize RSN is still currently active, but after speaking with the other editors I'd like to concede the 40% figure, and ask what objections any of us would have, if any, to simply adding the entire context, like so...."...among State inmates possessing a gun, fewer than 2% bought their firearm at a flea market or gun show, about 12% from a retail store or pawnshop, and 80% from family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source." - P.1 [9] - (as the first paragraph of the section currently reads) "In 1996, the Violence Policy Center (VPC) said that an increase in gun shows resulted in "a readily available source of weapons and ammunition for a wide variety of criminals...."[23] Analyzing data from 1997, the National Institute of Justice released a report saying that among State inmates who owned a gun, fewer than 2 percent bought them at a flea market or gun show.[24] Attorney and gun rights advocate Dave Kopel said "gun shows are no 'loophole' in the federal laws," and that singling out guns shows was "the first step toward abolishing all privacy regarding firearms and implementing universal gun registration."[25]" Darknipples ( talk) 06:43, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
This first statement in this section "In 1996, the Violence Policy Center (VPC) said that an increase in gun shows resulted in...." isn't accurate according to it's context (see quote on the "introduction page" just after/below the 8th bullet point). If you read the context, it's actually referring, more specifically, to the passage of FOPA. [10]. It is then corroborated by the NRA citation in the "Early efforts" section that says "Attorney and gun rights advocate Dave Kopel said...[28]" - "(The main reason for the growth in gun shows in the last decade and a half is that the Firearm Owners Protection Act provided for licensed firearms dealers to conduct business at gun shows in addition to selling from their storefronts.)" [11] (See the quote in the 11th paragraph from the top, third sentence). I think a more accurate and comprehensive context is in order, one that essentially picks up where the "Background" section left off. Here is a suggested edit.
[15] p. 262 "The VPC study points out that both convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh as well as Branch Davidian leader David Koresh frequented gun shows and were able to stock-pile weapons by making such legalized purchases at gun shows. Opponents to gun show legislation point to a Justice Department study in which arrested persons were asked where they had obtained their guns." [16] "That redefinition of what it meant to be "engaged in the business" of selling firearms opened up what came to be known as the "gun show loophole," in which private sellers ultimately were able to circumvent paperwork and background-check requirements imposed on licensees."(located about half way through the article) Darknipples ( talk) 23:57, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
The GA nominator has been banned by arbcom, are there any other active editors willing to take on the review? Winner 42 Talk to me! 20:46, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Godsy: Why so eager to fail the article? Doesn't seem very AGF to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong. I'd be happy to help if someone would refer me to how to do the review. Darknipples ( talk) 00:58, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
I'd also like to note the timing of Winner42's new section regarding the GA review was only 24 hours prior to @ QuilaBird:'s & @ Godsy:'s NPOV tag on the article. I'm trying to AGF, but I have to say, it seems a bit too coincidental. Darknipples ( talk) 01:42, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Zwerg Nase ( talk · contribs) 07:58, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
On it!
Zwerg Nase (
talk) 07:58, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Darknipples, Mudwater: It is hard for me to review this while it undergoes heavy changes. Any end in sight? Zwerg Nase ( talk) 13:12, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Zwerg Nase: The POV tag issue seems resolved. If not, I'm not sure where it could possibly go. I will continue sorting things until I know for sure, so I'm going to work probably until tonight. I've never gone through a GA review, and I'd appreciate any guidance that disambiguates the process and what you need from us. Thanks. Darknipples ( talk) 16:44, 22 September 2015 (UTC) OK, I can't see anything else I'd like to tweak, barring some unforeseen important news regarding GSL I'm done for a while. What now? Darknipples ( talk) 21:00, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
Heads up @ Zwerg Nase:, this has gone to Administration [17] -- Darknipples ( talk) 21:59, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Zwerg Nase: Will this affect the review in any way? Any details you can provide are appreciated, even if some of us are more concerned with the title than the actual article status. Darknipples ( talk) 21:43, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
No worries, Zwerg, take your time, I just know that constant changes can fail the article, but not specifically what kind of changes counts against receiving GA status. Darknipples ( talk) 18:27, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Finally on it. These are the things I believe should be adressed:
Optional: Any chance to get more images into the article? Maybe a photo of one of the prominent persons mentioned?
I am putting this on hold for the moment. The nominators have seven days to adress the issues. Zwerg Nase ( talk) 09:37, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Optional: Any chance to get more images into the article? Maybe a photo of one of the prominent persons mentioned? Done Darknipples ( talk) 20:33, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Zwerg Nase, Mudwater, Capitalismojo, Faceless Enemy, QuilaBird, Dennis Brown, Godsy, Callanecc, Winner 42, NE ENT, Cullen328, and DESiegel: (Anyone that can help) The recent ANI discussion over the Gun show loophole article title has been "archived with no resolution". Shall we continue with the GA review, or no? [18] Does there need to be a POV tag placed over title concerns per Mudwater's request's and "Opposing editor's" concern's? Also, the outstanding issue of whether "Background checks on firearms sales in the United States" is the proper title, or not? -- Darknipples ( talk) 05:57, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
There is no reply to my question on how to go ahead with the unresolved matter. I will therefore not hold it against you, if anyone has a problem with it, they can feel free to reasses the article at any time. A problem I have left now are two ref-errors that occur, the errors I get are:
Can you take care of that? Zwerg Nase ( talk) 15:34, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Darknipples, no need to get angry, everyone can feel free to chip in. As for the tags left:
Zwerg Nase ( talk) 14:55, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Then it's just the tags in the last section left standing in the way. Zwerg Nase ( talk) 20:50, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
It should be noted that I take specific issue with regard to these edits [24], and [25]. Replacing reports by the ATF with, albeit neutrally worded POVs, seems counter-intuitive in my view. Darknipples ( talk) 06:26, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
So far, Godsy has not deleted my revert on this issue. Hopefully, moving forward, they will discuss it first, before reverting. Darknipples ( talk) 23:00, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Edits made to the lead. I condensed it back down to 3 paragraphs and removed some minor details already mentioned in the body. [26] -- Darknipples ( talk) 07:04, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Godsy, did you quote this from the article [27]? If so, please share the exact quote, and or, location within the cite. If not, it may considered WP:SYNTH WP:UNDUE. Darknipples ( talk) 22:36, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Weeks after the Columbine shooting, Frank Lautenberg introduced a proposal to close the gun show loophole in federal law. It was passed in the Senate, but did not pass in the House. Gun control advocates wanted to extend the background check requirement to nonlicensed firearms sellers at gun shows, too.Frank Lautenberg's proposal would have done this according to the wording, so what does that sentence add without my addition (simply stating they supported it, if that's even necessary, it could be done in a better manner)? What part of the source is that sentence corresponding to before my expansion?— Godsy( TALK CONT) 00:49, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Point taken. Darknipples ( talk) 00:12, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Godsy, instead of turning this [36] into an edit war, let's discuss it's WP:Weight. As far as prose, i.e. WP:MOS, I don't see where it applies to the extent of exclusion. Darknipples ( talk) 22:46, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Godsy, please address the "contradiction tag" that you have placed as a result of your overhaul. Please explain what you think needs to happen here. The issue of "too many citations" seems easily addressed, as most of them seem to be some duplication. Darknipples ( talk) 22:58, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
18 U.S. states and Washington, D.C., require background checks at gun shows.≠ According to a 2013 report,
seven states require background checks on all gun sales at gun shows: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, New York, Oregon, and Rhode Island. Four require background checks on all handgun purchases at gun shows: Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. Six require individuals to obtain a permit that involves a background check to purchase handguns: Iowa, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska, and North Carolina. The remaining 33 states do not place additional restrictions on the private sales of firearms.
Your response included a reference to policy, making it much easier to see your point. I will address this issue and remove the tags when I am done. If you still find it unacceptable, please make the changes you feel are required so that we can finish by the deadline. Darknipples ( talk) 21:23, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
This reference seems WP:UNDUE in terms of being "notable".
I've removed it, pending any objections Darknipples ( talk) 05:56, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
In order to speed things up and hopefully save some of Zwerg's time, I'd like to address [42] Godsy's currently suggested version [43]. They have stated, it..."would be much better regardless of whether it met a certain quality rating." And that..."Articles about controversial subjects, ought to be simply described (stealing some words there from a Wikipedian I respect); instead they're often filled with unneeded content which leads to more unneeded content being added for balance and so on and so forth." While I might agree this is a profound insight, I am compelled by WP:POLICY, and the importance of discussion and consensus, to state my objection to these edits on the basis of previously mentioned policies, here. I will link this discussion to the article TP, for any other involved editors. Darknipples ( talk) 08:04, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
BTW, in response to the statement regarding "Articles about controversial subjects", I would point out that Wikipedia is not censored, and that "it is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all comers; it is our job to be fair to all sides of a controversy" as per WP:CONTROVERSY...This may seem overly bureaucratic to some, but it's been the only constant guide most editors, like myself, have been able to rely on in order to navigate Wikipedia in many ways. Darknipples ( talk) 08:35, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
...what have I gotten into here? To make it short: I went over the most current version and found several things I feel need fixing:
In my opinion, the article could pass pending these changes, but only if all edit conflicts are resolved! If I don't see this article being stable over the next 24 hours, I will fail this review. You would then be welcome to resolve your issues and nominate it again when the article has reached a safisfactory level of stability. Zwerg Nase ( talk) 12:52, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
OK, so I am going to pass this now, since it meets GA criteria in my opinion, seeing that edits the past few days have been constructive. I will however keep an eye on this. Thank you for all your work! Zwerg Nase ( talk) 17:34, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Any reason why we shouldn't add this to the list in the legislation section? [44] [45] [46] (more...) [47] Darknipples ( talk) 05:20, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Godsy:, please discuss your reasons for adding this tag instead of discussing it on the talk page first. Seeing as though this term is almost twenty years old and still sees quite a bit of publication, I feel this is unwarranted in this case according to the ten-year test [48]. It's notability [49] has continually been proven by reports and publications over decades leading up to current events, including legislation, of which, you are quite obviously aware [50]. Please share your solution as to how we should balance the article chronologically, and why you feel this tag is necessary. Perhaps we should use this... {{ expert-subject}} Darknipples ( talk) 16:49, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Godsy: I respectfully ask you to reconsider your deletion of material from my previous edit [51]. Do note that this author is not the only reliable source regarding this particular view by Bush (4th paragraph from the bottom) [52] (quote) But his spokesman, McClellan, said Bush "has consistently supported closing the gun show loophole for a number of years." As for why he did not back Danburg's bill--which would have angered the gun lobby here--McClellan said Bush thinks it is up to Congress to deal with the loophole. "Federal legislation created it," McClellan said. "Federal legislation should close it." If you like you can take it to RSN, but at least respond here. Furthermore, the "manner" in which it is attributed (to Scott McClellan) is not WP:OR, so what is the issue here exactly? Darknipples ( talk) 01:21, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
Bush justifies those positions as narrow disagreements over jurisdiction. Background checks are a good idea, he says, but because federal law created the gun-show loophole, federal law ought to correct it. That's why he didn't back Danburg's bill, says his spokesman Scott McClellan.
I wholly disagree, but I'm trying to pick my battles and avoid edit wars. Let's see what RSN says. Darknipples ( talk) 18:58, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
Link to RSN [54] Darknipples ( talk) 19:25, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Godsy: Here's a suggested compromise from RSN..."In a 2000 Rolling Stone / Washington Post Article, Bush's spokesman, Scott McClellan, said Bush's position was that the loophole could only be closed by federal legislation since the loophole was a byproduct of previous federal legislation." Is that acceptable enough for you? Darknipples ( talk) 19:59, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
I have a cite that would seem to put the NRA's current view into perspective. I'm asking if anyone has any suggestions on how to include this as a courtesy. Please AGF. [59] "The National Rifle Association has strongly objected to universal background checks — among other things, the group argues that only 10 percent of guns are purchased on the secondary market. (The NRA also disputes the idea that the current law amounts to a "gun-show loophole," pointing out that many of the people selling at gun shows are federally licensed dealers.)" -- (edit - adding entire context of NRA position) Darknipples ( talk) 07:23, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
What is the relevance of this to GSL? [60] (reference used from article in Bold text)
For one thing, GSL isn't mentioned anywhere in the article. It does talk about background checks but it's only in reference state laws which may or may not have passed. Can anyone explain it's weight or notability with regard to the GSL article? If anyone objects to it's exclusion please state your case or take it to RSN. Darknipples ( talk) 22:02, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
[62] I have pulled 3 of the 5 cites that were added recently [63]. I was able to substitute this one [64] with [65], as they are nearly identical in context. Please also note that I was able to keep all original statements and references in the paragraph, with original and additional cites already in the body. (Here are the issues I have with them.)
1. [66] The Washington Times "The gun show loophole myth" Retrieved September 13, 2015. Op-Ed piece. Also, I was able to find a similar news article from the same source released within 24 hrs of the original.)
2. "What's the Deal with Gun Show Loopholes?" Gun Talk TV. Retrieved September 13, 2015. (I've never heard of this source, and there aren't any WP articles regarding "Gun Talk TV" that I could see upon doing a quick search.)
3. [67] MRCTV's Dan Joseph Demolishes the Left's 'Gun Show Loophole' Myth", TheBlaze. "We Already Do That!". Retrieved September 13, 2015. (This story was actually produced by Media Research Center (MRCTV). MRC's mission is to "prove—through sound scientific research—that liberal bias in the media does exist and undermines traditional American values and to neutralize what they perceive as liberal bias in mainstream media." It has also received criticism [68] with regard to selective use of evidence.
In the meantime I have taken the liberty of sending these to RSN for some impartial opinions. (LINK) [69] - Darknipples ( talk) 07:44, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
Current status seems to have "changed" recently. Can anyone tell if they upheld background checks for private firearm sales? It seems to have enough weight to mention in RECENT DEVELOPMENTS, since it's already linked in the lead "17 states and Washington, D.C. do require background checks..." I don't think it needs mentioning in LEGISLATIVE.
1. (TheHill)Court strikes down DC gun regs in mixed ruling [70] "In a 2-1 decision Friday, a three-member panel of judges on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit upheld the city’s requirements that force gun owners to register long guns, get fingerprinted, photographed and appear in person when registering a gun, pay a registration fee and complete a firearms safety and training course."
2. (WaPo) [71]"The U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit today ruled that several parts of the District’s gun registration law violate the Second Amendment. The court held the following provisions unconstitutional:"
At the same time, the court upheld other requirements, including that gun owners be fingerprinted and photographed.
3. (AP & ABC)"In a mixed decision... The U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit ruled 2-1 that the city cannot ban gun owners from registering more than one pistol per month or require owners to re-register a gun every three years. The court also invalidated requirements that owners make a personal appearance to register a gun and pass a test about firearms laws. But the court upheld other parts of the law, such as requiring that so-called long guns — including rifles and shotguns — be registered along with handguns. The ruling also allows gun owners to be fingerprinted and photographed, pay certain fees and complete a firearms safety training course." [72] Darknipples ( talk) 16:27, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
I researched back and saw that this popped up, but didn't receive much discussion. The title refers to a loophole, which according to Wikipedia itself is "used to circumvent or otherwise avoid the intent, implied or explicitly stated, of the system." No background checks on private sales is the current intended policy of the government of the US. Attempts have been made to enact universal background checks ("close the loophole"), but they have been rejected, continuing the intended policy of no private-sale background checks.
Simply: It can't be a loophole if that's the system operating as intended. Some people objecting to the state of the law does not make it a loophole. Wikipedia is left with contradictory content.
The term "loophole" is also generally considered pejorative, implying that the action is bad, and that something in the law needs to be fixed to close the loophole. This is the point of view of the gun control side of the debate in the US, while the gun rights side does no believe anything needs to be changed. Thus, the title violates NPOV by supporting one point of view over the other.
I suggest the title change as previously discussed. It should be mentioned that the gun control side of the debate calls the intended lack of private sale background checks the "gun show loophole," but a non-descriptive, NPOV-violating term shouldn't be the title. QuilaBird ( talk) 13:34, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.
@ QuilaBird: As @ Altenmann: said, absence of policy is not a policy. The failure of a proposed bill for a form of universal background checks is not in any way explicit evidence of "policy". Not only that, you are ignoring the evidence to the contrary, A.K.A the bill itself. You still haven't presented any new citations, and you are still using Original Research. I suggest we all decide which form of dispute resolution/mediation to use in this matter right away, as it's already been over a week and the GA review has been started. Tags such as the NPOV are not meant as a permanent solution for editors that take issue. This article needs to move past this....AGAIN. (Pinging other editors as a reminder.) @ Capitalismojo: @ Godsy: @ Faceless Enemy: @ Mudwater: Darknipples ( talk) 20:13, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
The term "loophole" as defined in Wikipedia centers on the fact that the result is unintended by those who create the system. If the status quo was not the intent of the government, meaning this is a loophole, then the bill would have been passed. But it was rejected, defining the status quo as the intent of the government, thus the status quo cannot be a loophole by Wikipedia's own definition. It's as simple as that. QuilaBird ( talk) 19:44, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
Yes, the question of the name of this article keeps coming up. That's because the article title is inherently biased and violates the Neutral Point Of View policy. The phrase "gun show loophole" is used exclusively by those advocating a pro-gun-control agenda. Gun rights advocates don't use the term at all, and in fact sometimes argue against the use of the term, as in this Washington Times article from 2013: "The Gun Show Loophole is a Myth". — Mudwater ( Talk) 02:37, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Darknipples: as you've previously pointed out to me on this talk page, private sales were explicitly addressed and exempted from the normal FFL licensing and recordkeeping requirements in FOPA '86 ("...but such term [firearms dealer] shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, of purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.") Background checks for gun sales didn't exist in 1986, of course, but none of the various background check laws passed since then have changed that provision of the law. Faceless Enemy ( talk) 13:53, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Altenmann: @ Capitalismojo: @ Godsy: @ QuilaBird: @ Faceless Enemy: @ Mudwater: Which type of mediation would you prefer in order to resolve this topic [75]? I can start it and post the link here, but we need to get this resolved, once and for all. Darknipples ( talk) 20:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
{{re|user1|user2|user3|user4}}
in this manner, with a limit of 7 users. Regards,—
Godsy(
TALK
CONT) 23:24, 2 September 2015 (UTC)I'm going to paraphrase and reiterate the previous post in this section, to further bring it to the attention of interested editors. Darknipples has posted about this disagreement at the Neutral Point of View noticeboard. Here's the link, spelled out: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#NPOV Title Gun show loophole. What's likely to happen now is that there will be a further discussion there, about whether or not the title of the article, "Gun show loophole", violates WP:POVNAMING or WP:POVTITLE. Feel free to participate in the discussion there. P.S. to D.N.: I think posting there was the right choice. — Mudwater ( Talk) 23:20, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
When the subject of an article is referred to mainly by a single common name, as evidenced through usage in a significant majority of English-language reliable sources, Wikipedia generally follows the sources and uses that name as its article title (subject to the other naming criteria). Sometimes that common name includes non-neutral words that Wikipedia normally avoids (e.g. the Boston Massacre or the Teapot Dome scandal). In such cases, the prevalence of the name, or the fact that a given description has effectively become a proper noun (and that proper noun has become the usual term for the event), generally overrides concern that Wikipedia might appear as endorsing one side of an issue.In view of this, I found that not only were gun-control advocates calling this the "gun show loophole" but so were their opponents. For example, I Googled the term "gun show loophole -Wikipedia" and received over half a million hits -- strongly suggesting that it is a common term. A random review of hits from the first two pages showed that both those proposing, and those opposing, change to certain laws were using the term "loophole" to refer to the subject of this article. Regarding the above claim (earlier) that using "loophole" is essentially a weasel word, I don't think it is. A "loophole" in a law is an exception to that particular law, or portion of it. While it sometimes has a negative connotation (and in this case, certain moral entrepreneurss would love to exploit any such connotation when it comes to firearms), it also often means "exception" or something similar. Now, as is noted elsewhere, there is not an actual "exception" or "loophole" in that the same laws apply at gun shows as apply elsewhere, but the appearance of such a loophole comes about because, to the layperson (or lay reporter), private sales at a gun show look different than other private sales of firearms, and it "feels" like they should be regulated the same as sales by a licensed dealer. Compound this with the fact that licensed dealers also sell at gun shows, and must still follow all the same laws they have to follow in their stores, and you end up with a muddled mess. For those who might wonder about my own biases in this issue, I oppose federal laws regarding gun ownership or sales, believing that states should be free to decide what works best in their state. What's needed in California isn't necessarily what's needed in Alaska, and what's needed in Texas isn't necessarily what's needed in New York. The "loophole" doesn't need to be closed at the federal level, and Wikipedia is not taking sides in the issue by referring to the issue as the Gun show loophole. Etamni | ✉ | ✓ 04:45, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
As I said before, the article title is inherently biased and violates the Neutral Point Of View policy. The phrase "gun show loophole" is a pejorative term (i.e. a term with negative connotations) used by gun control advocates to promote their position. Gun rights advocates don't use the term at all, and often argue against the use of the term. Etamni said, I Googled the term "gun show loophole -Wikipedia" and received over half a million hits -- strongly suggesting that it is a common term. A random review of hits from the first two pages showed that both those proposing, and those opposing, change to certain laws were using the term "loophole" to refer to the subject of this article. I'm not seeing that at all. Here are the first two pages of hits that I'm getting when doing a Google search of "gun show loophole" (without the "Wikipedia"), excluding ads, and excluding the first hit which is the Wikipedia article itself. (Yes, the term is widely used, and sometimes used by news organizations and others without an obvious dog in the fight, but that doesn't change the fact that it violates NPOV by being inherently biased towards a pro-gun control position.)
— Mudwater ( Talk) 15:49, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
My two cents:
1) The term "loophole" is inherently loaded language. As
Altenmann pointed out, "loophole" deals with the intent of the law. And, as
Mudwater pointed out, the real world use of the term is very loaded, with one side calling it a loophole every chance they get, and the other side rejecting the term "loophole" completely.
2) The term "loophole" is a misnomer. As
Darknipples has pointed out, and as multiple reliable sources attest, private sales were very explicitly addressed in the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986, and were exempted from the recordkeeping and licensing requirements for commercial sales. It's my understanding that that section of FOPA was a response to ATF policies that Congress felt were overly broad (as in they defined many people as gun dealers who needed to be licensed).
3) However, as I understand the article title policy, "Common name" takes precedence over "neutral" or "accurate". If gun control advocates have managed to define this particular part of the gun debate in their terms, then coverage in reliable sources (and therefore, Wikipedia) is going to reflect that. A more accurate and neutral title for this particular concept would be "private sale exemption", but that seems to be in much less common use (~71k hits on Google for "gun show loophole" versus ~10k hits for "private sale exemption" + gun). I don't know what the balance has to be before they're both considered common names, but by gut feeling is that a 7–1 ratio is enough to override the neutrality concerns. (Maybe I'm wrong? Anyone else care to chime in with how Wikipedia has dealt with other contentious titles?) Therefore, as long as this article remains focused only on this single concept, "gun show loophole" appears to be the title that is least inconsistent with Wikipedia policy.
Faceless Enemy (
talk) 02:08, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
@
Etamni,
Mudwater,
Faceless Enemy,
Godsy,
Capitalismojo, and
Altenmann:
[97]. So far, the impartial consensus has been to keep the title as is. Beyond that, this same issue had the same result the last time the
WP:POVTITLE issue was raised months ago
[98]. The topic is now redundant
[99] after being repeatedly discussed,
again and again, with arguably all the same outcomes. Despite all of these discussions,
QuilaBird has stated that title-related issues "didn't receive much discussion" in their view. Really...? Continuously raising the same issue again isn't helpful and doesn't change the past, or present consensus' to keep the title as is. The POV tag has been up for almost a month now, and no new arguments to change it have been introduced for 10 months, let alone a 10 days ago. Unless someone has something truly new to bring to the discussion, with citations, I am asking ALL opposing editors here to drop the
WP:STICK, and allow the GA review to proceed (remove POV tag) upon the current impartial consensus. Please see "POV template use-section" (2) below in reference to my request. I also suggest adding {{
Round in circles}}
coupled with a FAQ subpage shown through ({{
FAQ}}
) to the top of the talk page, gathering together and linking all the previous discussions, results and appropriate summaries.
Darknipples (
talk) 10:43, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
As noted above, I've been asked to summarize the discussion. In reviewing what has been said here and all relevant policies, and prior discussions that have been linked here, as well as the brief discussion at NPOV Noticeboard, I do not believe that any summary and close, at this time, will resolve this issue, given that it has been raised numerous times, in numerous forums, just over the past year, and I believe that this pattern will continue. The issue needs to be resolved in a manner that meets Wikipedia policies and, hopefully, will allow editors to be more productive with their time on Wikipedia.
In order to reach that end, I reviewed a policy that appears to have been overlooked in the above discussion: WP:Article titles has a specific provision that may be applicable here, which is Non-judgmental descriptive titles and can be found at shortcut WP:NDESC. The opening sentence of this policy section states, "In some cases a descriptive phrase (such as Restoration of the Everglades) is best as the title. These are often invented specifically for articles, and should reflect a neutral point of view, rather than suggesting any editor's opinions." (Emphasis mine, internal links omitted). So I am going to again suggest Private sale exemption as a neutral title for the article. This title does not use any non-neutral words; it does not use peacock or weasel words; it does not disparage any point of view; it does not suggest an official stance by Wikipedia regarding the subject of the article -- in short, it appears to be a neutral term. I recognize that the article is written around the title gun show loophole and that changing the title will necessarily affect some of the article content. I do not believe that the challenges this introduces will be insurmountable. I also recognize that there is a competing policy at WP:TITLECHANGES which directs editors not to invent names or use extremely uncommon names as a way of compromising between viewpoints. This contradiction between these two policies means that editors need to apply the rules of common sense to the situation.
If the proposed title is rejected, and I were to close the discussion, then my closing summary would be as follows: Editors conducted a policy-based discussion of the term Gun show loophole. While there was recognition that the title may not be neutral, editors were unable to form a consensus regarding an alternative title. Keeping the discussion open is disruptive. Therefore, the discussion is closed with no consensus. Interpreting WP:NOCONSENSUS in this situation, the result of a no consensus close is that the article title should not be changed. Furthermore, I am going to recommend that the involved editors agree to not raise this issue again for at least one year. I am also going to recommend that someone place a notice at the top of the talk page with links to this discussion and prior discussions of this issue, with a caution about raising this issue again, especially within the next year.
Finally, I would be comfortable formally closing this discussion as a non-admin, but am concerned that some parties may feel I was too involved in the earlier discussion. Given that both the suggested title change, and leaving the title as is, were suggested by me previously, I am not confident that all involved will accept such a closure from me in this case, so I will defer the actual closing to someone less involved than I was. Etamni | ✉ | ✓ 10:18, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Well, there have been some interesting recent discussions about the title of the article, here, and also at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Opposing editors refuse to WP:dropthestick over Gun show loophole title NPOV tag. But I have to say, my views have not changed. I still think that the article name "Gun show loophole" violates the WP:NPOV policy, and that the article should be renamed per WP:NDESC, to "Background checks for firearm sales in the United States". But, at this point I'm not sure how to proceed. Someone could resubmit the article as a requested move -- there was one of those already, which can be reviewed at Talk:Gun show loophole/Archive 3#Requested move 29 January 2015. Or someone could put the {{ POV}} tag back on the article -- but that was just taken off, after no one continued the discussion about why it should be left on. So, yeah. What next? Speaking for myself, I'm going to ponder this further. For the moment, I don't have anything further to add, either to this discussion or to the article itself. If and when I have something further to say, I'll post again. — Mudwater ( Talk) 00:10, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
IMO, looking at this giant wall of text makes it very hard to decipher what rules and objections are being referenced or argued. So, I've decided to use bullet-points to help refocus and clarify the issues being raised in regard to the POV title tag. Once we have finished the list, and determined which rules are allegedly being violated, and why, I will add it to NPOVN. The list is in no particular order. Feel free to make suggestions and requests in this section, but do not use it for debate, keep that in the above "Title not consistent with Wikipedia, NPOV" section... Darknipples ( talk) 05:06, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Here is the link to Template:POV.
This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. This template may be removed whenever any one of the following is true:
Darknipples ( talk) 01:00, 19 September 2015 (UTC)