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Hello, I just wondered whether there might be a connection of the "Green Man" with celtic art - especially that of the statue(s) of the "Prince of the Glauberg" in Germany, as to be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glauberg
The "bubbles" around the ears seem to be leaves, which would add to the interpretation of the "Green Man" being a symbol or even a deity of celtic origin. It would imho make sense to depict a prince or a king with signs of authority - of which elements symbolising a deity would be a good example. Alrik Fassbauer ( talk) 23:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Make a section listing fictional depictions of the Green Man. I know Robert Jordan's The Eye of the World prominently included the Green Man, and I can't believe that to be the only example. -- maru (talk) Contribs 23:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Hard to see Bombadil as the Green Man, possibly Ghan Buri Ghan is closer. GhanBuri Ghan is described as a woodwose or wildman, not necessarily the same thing. There was a novel called The Green MAn by Kingsley Amis, made into a TV movie starring Albert Finney in 1990 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098813/ Pignut 07:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)pignut
In modern times, the Green Man occurs in sometimes unexpected places: Del Monte's advertising character the 'Jolly Green Giant' is, in essence, a modern derivation of the archetype.
How so? This is an interesting idea but I can't begin to see how it could be justified. Just becaue they're both green and leafy? It seems like a thought off the top of someone's head. If there's any evidence for this idea let's see it! Flapdragon 02:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
That may be true, but I don't see how this is an example. Even if the implication is just that the GM was somehow subconsciously present in the mind of whoever invented the JGG, it's pretty dubious. The JGG has green skin and wears leaves; the GM isn't literally green in colour, he's usually found carved in unpainted stone or wood, and the foliage is part of him. Anyway he's a just head adorning a surface, rather than a three-dimensional whole man. A pretty weak link. We'd be on better ground comparing the JGG with Adam and Eve, or Shrek, but would anyone think that was an enlightening parallel? Flapdragon 18:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Thinking about both this parallel and the one above with Tom Bombadil, I begin to wonder whether there is some confusion in people's minds between the architectural motif of the Green Man and the legendary/heraldic archetype of the Wild Man or the Old Man of the Woods. Flapdragon 18:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Leif902 22:57, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I have tested the link to Bog Brothers - Beloved Order of the Green Man. This link was found not to work; the address does not function correctly. I could find no other mention of BOG on a search. I have replaced this link with an alternative link to which I believe the author/editor was referring. abdullahazzam need photos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.83.169 ( talk) 16:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
There about 10 or so people by this name on Wiki, to none of whom is the Green Man quote obviously attributable. How about a direct link?
According to my studies, the Green Man was a pagan deity of the forest. He was also known as Jack of the Green and was the personification of the greening of the earth with the coming of Spring. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Utahwitch ( talk • contribs) 16:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC).
Ronald Hutton in his book "Stations of the Sun" claims that there is no connection between Jack in the Green and the Green Man, and says that the Jack in the Green May Day figure, was originally a milkmaid wearing crockery on her head. I can't follow his argument though and don't find it convincing.
I have seen the green man head in Etruscan art. There is a reference to "Russia's Jack in the Green". I'm assuming that this is a typo, so what is the green man called in Russia? Golden Bough is probably a good source, but I don't have it handy.
It's been claimed that the green man carvings spread from Germany in the middle ages, so they are not an indigenous British tradition. I would like this issue cleared up as there is contradictory evidence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Userlogin&returnto=Talk:Green_Man
My appologies. My computer didn't display the last part of the article where this is briefly talked about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pignut ( talk • contribs)
"The Green Man" is also a common traditional English Pub name. Sometimes said to be associated with foresters. "Green Man pub signs will sometimes feature pictures of Robin Hood, or the Green Man head Pignut 09:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)pignut
Is that the Christian or the Moorish part of the Alhambra? -- 84.20.17.84 10:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
We should add a link to the Lady Raglan who coined the name -- I don't know the correct link myself. (I'm guessing that she is the former Julia Hamilton, wife of FitzRoy Somerset, 4th Baron Raglan.) -- 201.19.11.75 12:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
One of the picture captions says: "A medieval Green Man on the capital of a column in an English kjili" - the last word appears to be gibberish. Crypto-vandalism? Smithfarm too lazy to sign in 85.71.124.239 ( talk) 20:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following paragraph from the article and bring it here for discussion:
It is a rather long paragraph, which repeats things that have already been said elsewhere in the article, has a speculative and unencyclopædic tone, and has no references for its claims. And then, it ends on a note of uncertainty as to its argument. All in all, rather problematic, I would say. Thoughts? --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 19:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone assist this reader, in his ignorance, by explaining the purpose of the {{TOCleft}} template in the article? In his browser (which of course may not be representative) it is displacing the "Types of Green Man" section head awkwardly to the right, while leaving the rest of the paragraph aligned to the left. -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 18:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I sujest the seciton "Trivia" be removed as it contains a Lists of miscellaneous information. Overmind 900 ( talk) 14:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I think it is true that the green man is an offshoot of the greek god pan or is very similar, nowhere in the article does it mention pan at all, I think there should be a section with info on pan and other similar dieties. Any thoughts? Wizard 109109 ( talk) 21:51, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
I have removed this whole section as it seems to be unsupported by any independently verifiable references. Has the thesis been published? If not, it is inadmissible as a Wikipedia source. Sorry. SiGarb | Talk 16:22, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
I corrected (I hope) my original section on Modern Images. I first learned of the various artists mentioned through the work of Phyllis Araneo, whose original thesis on the subject is published online at the Coast Research Database maintained by the University of the Sunshine Coast, Queensland, Australia. I cited this database for anyone who wishes to read her thesis. I have also added external links to the artworks featured in the section so that readers can get a visual sense of the variety of the modern renderings of Green Man. I'm still looking for a couple of them; if I find them I'll add those links too, or possibly a picture in text. Dgu56 ( talk) 17:52, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Since the Whitefield Green Man by Paul Sivell image is now imbedded in the article, perhaps we should remove the external link to the Whitefield Green Man image in the Modern Images section?
Dgu56 (
talk) 04:20, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
I replaced the "Mythical" in the following sentence to "Religous" ""Religous figures such as Cernunnos, Sylvanus, Derg Corra, Green George, Jack in the green, John Barleycorn, Robin Goodfellow, Puck, and the Green Knight all partake of the Green Man's nature;"". I did this because mythical implies falsehood and contempt toward those who see "The Green Man" as a religous figure, and since people don't refer Christianity on here to mythology, I saw it as insulting to do so with another, arguably older, religion. CelticsFinest ( talk) 02:34, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
"No, "mythical" was the proper term." - not necessarily: many of these figures don't feature in myth, at least as it has come down to us. Cernunnos, for example, is a religious figure. The Green Knight is literary. Others are part of folklore.In fact, I can't see a strong case for any of these figures being mythical, per se, except maybe Sylvanus (who may be mentioned in Roman myth but who was still probably predominantly a cult-figure) and Derg Corra, who I don't know much about. Volkodlak ( talk) 00:28, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Any connection between the Green Man motif and the Roman god Vertumnus? Lily20 ( talk) 20:26, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Odd that there's no section on Green Men in literature - any chance of making one? I've added a 'see also' link to The Green Man, a novel by Kingsley Amis featuring a Green Man. There are plenty of other examples. 81.156.175.248 ( talk) 08:56, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
which relates the Green Man to a scene in Lear. Sadly, I can't find the whole article online. Baron ridiculous ( talk) 03:34, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
sorry but Osiris is not a corn diety. corn developed in meso america; Osiris is an emmer/barley diety. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.114.148.167 ( talk) 21:03, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
http://www.mikeharding.co.uk/greenman/green6.html
This is source 12. No such web page. MathewTownsend ( talk) 23:31, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
The article's introduction describes the Green Man as "a sculpture, drawing, or other representation of a face surrounded by or made from leaves". This seems to be rather than putting the cart before the horse. Surely the Green Man is a personification of nature found in folklore, just like Mother Nature. I really think the slant of the introduction needs changing to reflect this. Gymnophoria ( talk) 11:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
Under the heading Related Characters is a reference to research which is not cited. This line in question is "Etymological research by the University of Wales into the meaning of the names of Celtic gods and goddesses shows that one Celtic deity, Viridios, has a name meaning "Green Man" in both the Celtic languages and Latin". Does anyone know where the research mentioned in the above line can be found? Wirdjos ( talk) 14:59, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Twice corn is mentioned in association with the Egyptian God Osiris. Either citation is needed or this needs removed. Corn did not exist in Egypt until the 18th century. There are no mentions of corn in Wikipedia's Osiris article, there are no respected Egyptologists that connect Osiris with corn, and I can find no art associated with Osiris that shows anything that could be definitively identified as corn. He was indeed a god associated with crops and growth, but not maize. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raszoo ( talk • contribs) 02:53, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
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In a post-apocalyptic southeast England (called "inland" in the narrator's idiom) Hoban's protagonist finds a carved wooden face which he calls "Greanvine". IIRC, it is described as a disgorging head, with foliage coming from the mouth. In context, it is plainly meant to be a Green Man. I could find quotes with page numbers, but hesitate to add what might be construed as original research with only a primary source. If anyone knows of scholarly commentary on this, adding a sourced paragraph to the article would be splendid. Just plain Bill ( talk) 22:17, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
Starting a talk section to hash out some thoughts before editing. The article suggests in the section titled "Churches" that the green man is not a pagan symbol, or "superficially appearing to be pagan", because he appears in churches. I'd argue this makes the initial assumption that churches categorically bar any and all pagan symbols. I'd further argue this assumption is incorrect because of the well-documented and rather expansive history of christianity adopting pagan symbols. Evergreen wreaths, gargoyles, and the triquerta to name a few. Christians themselves (some of them at least) recognize that some of their symbols have been "borrowed", to quote catholicexchange.com, from paganism. If the green man is not a pagan symbol, but instead a christian one, what is the christian meaning of the green man and how is it different from the pagan one? Eharrigan ( talk) 01:53, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
since I first started editing it 3 years ago, and it needs clean up, but not whole scale reversal of referenced content with mere addition of a single new (even if helpful) ref. Wuerzele ( talk) 21:34, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
New proposals for the title, other than the one I suggested in the {{Split}} template, very welcome.-- AntientNestor ( talk) 06:33, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
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Text and/or other creative content from Green Man was copied or moved into Green man (spirit of nature) on 9 June 2023. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Hello, I just wondered whether there might be a connection of the "Green Man" with celtic art - especially that of the statue(s) of the "Prince of the Glauberg" in Germany, as to be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glauberg
The "bubbles" around the ears seem to be leaves, which would add to the interpretation of the "Green Man" being a symbol or even a deity of celtic origin. It would imho make sense to depict a prince or a king with signs of authority - of which elements symbolising a deity would be a good example. Alrik Fassbauer ( talk) 23:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Make a section listing fictional depictions of the Green Man. I know Robert Jordan's The Eye of the World prominently included the Green Man, and I can't believe that to be the only example. -- maru (talk) Contribs 23:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Hard to see Bombadil as the Green Man, possibly Ghan Buri Ghan is closer. GhanBuri Ghan is described as a woodwose or wildman, not necessarily the same thing. There was a novel called The Green MAn by Kingsley Amis, made into a TV movie starring Albert Finney in 1990 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098813/ Pignut 07:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)pignut
In modern times, the Green Man occurs in sometimes unexpected places: Del Monte's advertising character the 'Jolly Green Giant' is, in essence, a modern derivation of the archetype.
How so? This is an interesting idea but I can't begin to see how it could be justified. Just becaue they're both green and leafy? It seems like a thought off the top of someone's head. If there's any evidence for this idea let's see it! Flapdragon 02:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
That may be true, but I don't see how this is an example. Even if the implication is just that the GM was somehow subconsciously present in the mind of whoever invented the JGG, it's pretty dubious. The JGG has green skin and wears leaves; the GM isn't literally green in colour, he's usually found carved in unpainted stone or wood, and the foliage is part of him. Anyway he's a just head adorning a surface, rather than a three-dimensional whole man. A pretty weak link. We'd be on better ground comparing the JGG with Adam and Eve, or Shrek, but would anyone think that was an enlightening parallel? Flapdragon 18:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Thinking about both this parallel and the one above with Tom Bombadil, I begin to wonder whether there is some confusion in people's minds between the architectural motif of the Green Man and the legendary/heraldic archetype of the Wild Man or the Old Man of the Woods. Flapdragon 18:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Leif902 22:57, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I have tested the link to Bog Brothers - Beloved Order of the Green Man. This link was found not to work; the address does not function correctly. I could find no other mention of BOG on a search. I have replaced this link with an alternative link to which I believe the author/editor was referring. abdullahazzam need photos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.83.169 ( talk) 16:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
There about 10 or so people by this name on Wiki, to none of whom is the Green Man quote obviously attributable. How about a direct link?
According to my studies, the Green Man was a pagan deity of the forest. He was also known as Jack of the Green and was the personification of the greening of the earth with the coming of Spring. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Utahwitch ( talk • contribs) 16:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC).
Ronald Hutton in his book "Stations of the Sun" claims that there is no connection between Jack in the Green and the Green Man, and says that the Jack in the Green May Day figure, was originally a milkmaid wearing crockery on her head. I can't follow his argument though and don't find it convincing.
I have seen the green man head in Etruscan art. There is a reference to "Russia's Jack in the Green". I'm assuming that this is a typo, so what is the green man called in Russia? Golden Bough is probably a good source, but I don't have it handy.
It's been claimed that the green man carvings spread from Germany in the middle ages, so they are not an indigenous British tradition. I would like this issue cleared up as there is contradictory evidence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Userlogin&returnto=Talk:Green_Man
My appologies. My computer didn't display the last part of the article where this is briefly talked about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pignut ( talk • contribs)
"The Green Man" is also a common traditional English Pub name. Sometimes said to be associated with foresters. "Green Man pub signs will sometimes feature pictures of Robin Hood, or the Green Man head Pignut 09:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)pignut
Is that the Christian or the Moorish part of the Alhambra? -- 84.20.17.84 10:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
We should add a link to the Lady Raglan who coined the name -- I don't know the correct link myself. (I'm guessing that she is the former Julia Hamilton, wife of FitzRoy Somerset, 4th Baron Raglan.) -- 201.19.11.75 12:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
One of the picture captions says: "A medieval Green Man on the capital of a column in an English kjili" - the last word appears to be gibberish. Crypto-vandalism? Smithfarm too lazy to sign in 85.71.124.239 ( talk) 20:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following paragraph from the article and bring it here for discussion:
It is a rather long paragraph, which repeats things that have already been said elsewhere in the article, has a speculative and unencyclopædic tone, and has no references for its claims. And then, it ends on a note of uncertainty as to its argument. All in all, rather problematic, I would say. Thoughts? --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 19:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone assist this reader, in his ignorance, by explaining the purpose of the {{TOCleft}} template in the article? In his browser (which of course may not be representative) it is displacing the "Types of Green Man" section head awkwardly to the right, while leaving the rest of the paragraph aligned to the left. -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 18:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I sujest the seciton "Trivia" be removed as it contains a Lists of miscellaneous information. Overmind 900 ( talk) 14:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I think it is true that the green man is an offshoot of the greek god pan or is very similar, nowhere in the article does it mention pan at all, I think there should be a section with info on pan and other similar dieties. Any thoughts? Wizard 109109 ( talk) 21:51, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
I have removed this whole section as it seems to be unsupported by any independently verifiable references. Has the thesis been published? If not, it is inadmissible as a Wikipedia source. Sorry. SiGarb | Talk 16:22, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
I corrected (I hope) my original section on Modern Images. I first learned of the various artists mentioned through the work of Phyllis Araneo, whose original thesis on the subject is published online at the Coast Research Database maintained by the University of the Sunshine Coast, Queensland, Australia. I cited this database for anyone who wishes to read her thesis. I have also added external links to the artworks featured in the section so that readers can get a visual sense of the variety of the modern renderings of Green Man. I'm still looking for a couple of them; if I find them I'll add those links too, or possibly a picture in text. Dgu56 ( talk) 17:52, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Since the Whitefield Green Man by Paul Sivell image is now imbedded in the article, perhaps we should remove the external link to the Whitefield Green Man image in the Modern Images section?
Dgu56 (
talk) 04:20, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
I replaced the "Mythical" in the following sentence to "Religous" ""Religous figures such as Cernunnos, Sylvanus, Derg Corra, Green George, Jack in the green, John Barleycorn, Robin Goodfellow, Puck, and the Green Knight all partake of the Green Man's nature;"". I did this because mythical implies falsehood and contempt toward those who see "The Green Man" as a religous figure, and since people don't refer Christianity on here to mythology, I saw it as insulting to do so with another, arguably older, religion. CelticsFinest ( talk) 02:34, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
"No, "mythical" was the proper term." - not necessarily: many of these figures don't feature in myth, at least as it has come down to us. Cernunnos, for example, is a religious figure. The Green Knight is literary. Others are part of folklore.In fact, I can't see a strong case for any of these figures being mythical, per se, except maybe Sylvanus (who may be mentioned in Roman myth but who was still probably predominantly a cult-figure) and Derg Corra, who I don't know much about. Volkodlak ( talk) 00:28, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Any connection between the Green Man motif and the Roman god Vertumnus? Lily20 ( talk) 20:26, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Odd that there's no section on Green Men in literature - any chance of making one? I've added a 'see also' link to The Green Man, a novel by Kingsley Amis featuring a Green Man. There are plenty of other examples. 81.156.175.248 ( talk) 08:56, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
which relates the Green Man to a scene in Lear. Sadly, I can't find the whole article online. Baron ridiculous ( talk) 03:34, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
sorry but Osiris is not a corn diety. corn developed in meso america; Osiris is an emmer/barley diety. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.114.148.167 ( talk) 21:03, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
http://www.mikeharding.co.uk/greenman/green6.html
This is source 12. No such web page. MathewTownsend ( talk) 23:31, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
The article's introduction describes the Green Man as "a sculpture, drawing, or other representation of a face surrounded by or made from leaves". This seems to be rather than putting the cart before the horse. Surely the Green Man is a personification of nature found in folklore, just like Mother Nature. I really think the slant of the introduction needs changing to reflect this. Gymnophoria ( talk) 11:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
Under the heading Related Characters is a reference to research which is not cited. This line in question is "Etymological research by the University of Wales into the meaning of the names of Celtic gods and goddesses shows that one Celtic deity, Viridios, has a name meaning "Green Man" in both the Celtic languages and Latin". Does anyone know where the research mentioned in the above line can be found? Wirdjos ( talk) 14:59, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Twice corn is mentioned in association with the Egyptian God Osiris. Either citation is needed or this needs removed. Corn did not exist in Egypt until the 18th century. There are no mentions of corn in Wikipedia's Osiris article, there are no respected Egyptologists that connect Osiris with corn, and I can find no art associated with Osiris that shows anything that could be definitively identified as corn. He was indeed a god associated with crops and growth, but not maize. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raszoo ( talk • contribs) 02:53, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
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In a post-apocalyptic southeast England (called "inland" in the narrator's idiom) Hoban's protagonist finds a carved wooden face which he calls "Greanvine". IIRC, it is described as a disgorging head, with foliage coming from the mouth. In context, it is plainly meant to be a Green Man. I could find quotes with page numbers, but hesitate to add what might be construed as original research with only a primary source. If anyone knows of scholarly commentary on this, adding a sourced paragraph to the article would be splendid. Just plain Bill ( talk) 22:17, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
Starting a talk section to hash out some thoughts before editing. The article suggests in the section titled "Churches" that the green man is not a pagan symbol, or "superficially appearing to be pagan", because he appears in churches. I'd argue this makes the initial assumption that churches categorically bar any and all pagan symbols. I'd further argue this assumption is incorrect because of the well-documented and rather expansive history of christianity adopting pagan symbols. Evergreen wreaths, gargoyles, and the triquerta to name a few. Christians themselves (some of them at least) recognize that some of their symbols have been "borrowed", to quote catholicexchange.com, from paganism. If the green man is not a pagan symbol, but instead a christian one, what is the christian meaning of the green man and how is it different from the pagan one? Eharrigan ( talk) 01:53, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
since I first started editing it 3 years ago, and it needs clean up, but not whole scale reversal of referenced content with mere addition of a single new (even if helpful) ref. Wuerzele ( talk) 21:34, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
New proposals for the title, other than the one I suggested in the {{Split}} template, very welcome.-- AntientNestor ( talk) 06:33, 21 May 2023 (UTC)