This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
the Hellenic Republic (in Greek: Ελληνική Δημοκρατία) (Helleniké Demokratía)
I changed the transliteration of Ελληνική Δημοκρατία to
Helleniké Demokratía.
I did it because I did not believe that Ellinikí Dhimokratía was an
appropriate transliteration. Helleniké Demokratía is a not very successful attempt to write Hellēnikḗ Dēmokratía which
I believe is an accurate transliteration of Ἑλληνική Δημοκρατία, because:
the δασεία (The symbol on the Ἑ) becomes H and the letter eta (η) becomes
ē, because the Greek vowels η and
ω are traditionally the long counterparts of the short vowels
ε and ο which are transliterated as
e and o
so naturally the long versions would be ē
and ō
(e and o
with a macron).
Because Greek does not have a standard form of
transliteration I admit it is hard to know exactly what the transliteration
should be and I know that the one I entered is not phoenetic, but it is an
accurate representation the value of each letter and anyone who is familiar with
Greek normally would be able to read it.
Please note that this method
of transliteration is the same one the Romans used when transliterating borrowed
words into the Latin alphabet. Some of those words have passed into English
using a similar spelling. For example: Hellenes (Ἑλληνες
/ Héllēnes),
Athens (Ἀθῆναι
/ Athḗnai),
Homer (Ὅμηρος
/ Hómēros), Hagia Sophia (Ἀγία
Σοφία / Hagía
Sophía), hoi polloi (Οἱ
πολλοί / hoi
polloí).
If you still object to the trasliteration
please, don't hesitate to change it. I am aware that I may be wrong.
REX
I see your point. Helleniké Demokratía does not inform the reader how to pronounce Ἑλληνική Δημοκρατία. However, neither does Ellinikí Dhimokratía. As a native speaker of both English and Greek I know that the Greeks pronounce Ἑλληνική Δημοκρατία as IPA: /ɛˌliniˈki ðiˌmokɾæˈtiæ/ but English speakers would pronounce Ellinikí Dhimokratía as IPA: /ɛˌlɪnɪˈkɪ dʰɪˌmokɹaˈtia/. To get an English speaker to pronounce it as IPA: /ɛˌliniˈki ðiˌmokɾæˈtiæ/ is not always possible as they normally pronounce the letter a as IPA: /a/ except for in words with one syllable (for example cat IPA: /kæt/) and the letter r as IPA: /ɹ/. The closest we could get would be to spell it as Elleeneekee Theemokrateea, which would be pronounced IPA: /ɛˌliniˈki ðiˌmokɹaˈtia/. Therefore, given that we can’t provide a definite pronunciation, I believe that we should try to use a transliteration that most English speakers would be familiar with because of the abundance of Greek words in English and because the Erasmic pronunciation is so widespread (please look at the transliterations on the page Greek alphabet) or to provide its pronunciation in the IPA or SAMPA. Let me know what you think. REX 17:51, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In spite of the fact that many Greeks believe that their language has been pronounced the same way in classical times as it is today, the mainstream view of scholars in linguistics including those teaching at Greek universities is the reconstructed Greek pronunciation, which is not identical with the Erasmian one. The above cited article by Caragounis presents a dissident view. There is ample discussion about this topic, wich seems to be a hot issue for some Greeks, in Talk:Ancient Greek pronunciation. Andreas 01:27, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Αrticle does not reflect that there is no seperation of State and Church in Greece and that the Church ofter offers its -unsolicited- opinion about matters such as foreing policy and the Great Greek Spitit[tm]
Ά, ρε τραγοπαπάδες, χέρι ξύλο που θέλετε...
Project2501a 11:14, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"Major challenges remaining include the reduction of unemployment and further restructuring of the economy, including privatising several state enterprises, undertaking social security reforms, overhauling the tax system, and minimising bureaucratic inefficiencies." - Not a neutral point of view, in fact more of a manifesto. Is this the agena of the current administration? Suggest this be rephrased. -- harry 14:38, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
-- Project2501a 10:50, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Why "Hellenic Republic" rather than "Greek Democracy"? I'd have thought the latter is an accurate translation of the official Greek name of the country. Michael Hardy 23:17 Feb 1, 2003 (UTC)
Hellenic Republic seems to be the standard usage in English. And the Kind was always King of the Hellenes. Don't ask me why. :-) -- Zoe
Actually the word greek is greek too, but it refers to an ancient greek colony in what is nowadays Italy. Latins (and other latin derived languages after them) named all greek speakers "greeks" assuming it was the name of all the Helllenes. It was not and this 2000 year old mistake is what Greece is trying to correct now.
I think something more needs to be mentioned about the Greek military junta of the 1970s. Are these articles imported from the CIA factbook? I would not think they would want to mention it since they supported them.
I think something more needs to be mentioned about the current state of drafted soldiers and those denying service in Greece. or at least, i should make an article/point to the draft article already on Wikipedia
Hell I think a whole article on greek beurocracy and the re-occuring habbit of the greek goverment/public sector always trying to weasel themselves out of any bad situation, and never taking responsibility for their actions.
Project2501a 10:50, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I also think that a notice should be made about the current racist/neo-con attitude of the Greeks (yes, i am Greek, yes, i live in Athens. Project2501a 10:50, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(Mostly to Adam Carr)
To this day, the royal family is not allowed to enter Greece (which caused considerable diplomatic problems when the Kings of Spain visited Greece a few years ago because the Queen is the sister of the deposed King of Greece). I thought the reason why the monarchy was thrown out of Greece was that the King was perveived by the Greek people to be complicit in the establishment of the dictatorship of the colonels. If the monarchy had been popular, the abolition of the Monarchy by the (already in trouble) dictatorship in 1973 would have been an impopular measure and the 1974 referendum would not have confirmed it. — Miguel 22:44, 2004 Apr 25 (UTC)
That is all true. Nevertheless, the statement that "the monarchy supported the dictatorship" is a contested one and cannot be simply stated as a fact. I believe King Constantine actually tried to retract his support for the regime and stage a counter-coup in 1968 which was why he had to leave the country, and why the regime then purported to abolish the monarchy. Adam 00:43, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
If at the time of the referendum the public perception that the King was complicit played an important role in the outcome of the referendum, that should be pointed out. If it is also a fact that the role of Constantine is debated, that should be pointed out.
I guess what this shows is that the current description of the facts (and of their historical interpretation) in the article is incomplete and too brief, and I hope someone with better knowledge of them than me would go in and expand the article(s). It's like most pages about Cyprus mentioning the Turkish invasion but not the Greek coup, or the fact that the dictatorship fell largely because of its involvement in the botched coup. Then again, was the intervention in Cyprus popular and the defeat to Turkey that was impopular, or was the coup perceived to be inappropriate regardless of the outcome?
I am writing what I (mistakenly) understood were (established) facts. If the situation is more complicated, I think it is better to add qualifications and more facts than to revert to the previous, incomplete account. — Miguel 01:19, 2004 Apr 26 (UTC)
Detailed discussion of these points belongs either in History of Modern Greece or Constantine II of Greece. Adam 01:28, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
History of Modern Greece makes no mention of the monarchy between 1950 and the 1974 referendum, which is sort of odd. At least in relation with the events of 1967 it should be mentioned. — Miguel 01:41, 2004 Apr 26 (UTC)
Yes I agree. I will have a go at it later. Adam 01:46, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Sources of my edits:
Am I missing something or is there no mention of the original Summer Olympic Games anywhere in the Greek articles? This has to be fixed, surely! violet/riga (t) 16:28, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The Districts of Greece are:
Ήπειρος -Ipiros Μακεδονία -Macedonia Στερεά Ελλάδα-Sterea Ellada Ιόνια Νησιά-Ionia Nisia Νησιά Αιγαίου-Nisia Eyeou Πελοπόννησος-Peloponisos Κρήτη-Kriti
The bolded part of the phrase "Tensions continue to exist between Greece and Turkey over Cyprus and the delimitation of borders in the Aegean Sea" has been described as a "foolish comment" in 82.35.40.249's edit summaries, or even worse, "rewriting history the Turkish way". So he removed it. I've explained to him in his talk page that this is neither favoring Turkey nor endorsing its claims, and that this is a representation of the facts only. Despite my suggestions, he kept reverting the page to his version. Doesn't the issue of the Aegean "gray zones" deserve a mention? Comments, please. Etz Haim 16:16, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Since it is not recongised by anyone as an issue, except by Turkey, no it does not deserve a mention. You can write it however in Turkey´s page under the category irrational, old-fashioned aggressive claims against neighbours. Sotiris, 21 May 2005
Having followed this during a sojourn in the region, which included time in both Greece and Turkey, and quite a bit of work with legal issues, the policy of the Government of Turkey is that its claims against the accepted boundaries and maritime economic rights should not be refered to the Internationl Court of Justice, and that en force treaties, which are quite detailed, need to be "revised." Additionally it is the position of Turkey that it should be exempted from the United Nations Covention on the Law of the Sea, of which the U.S., and almost every country is a signatory, and which defines rights as well as the mechanism for judicial settlement of disputes. Therefore, by its nature, the term "Grey Areas" is an endorsement of Turkey's position.
The relationsip between Greece and Turkey has vastly improved, for a number of reasons, including further democratization within Turkey, which in turn are driven by EU effects. DaveHM 18:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
The article states: "Note however that apart from Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, temples of other religions do not exist in the capital, mainly due to opposition from the Greek Church."
This is not true (I'm Greek); for example, there are many Mosques in Athens (since there are many Muslim immigrants, mainly from Pakistan). There is a discussion about building a mosque and a cultural centre 50km off the city-centre (in Spata), funded by some Saudis, and that's where the Greek state has been hesitant.
Since I'm not a wikipedian, can someone correct this? Thank you :)
(Please, sign your posts)
Actually the work "Grecos" is just an older form of "Ellinas" Aristotle writes that at some point that "this the land of the Pelasgians where the Ellines now inhabit, who were previously known as Greeks and Sellians."
User:128.113.201.75 has reverted the article thrice now. He is tryint to inject a nationalistic POV into the article by suggesting that most greeks want all immigrants in greece deported.
i've left a message in his talk page. if he keeps at it, i'm asking for page protection.
Project2501a 13:23, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, it seems I accidentally screwed up editing this page.I tried to revert to an earlier (non vandalised) version of this page and actually reinstated the vandalised parts.My bad. -- Jsone42 18:48, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
To eleborate on the Ελληνική Δημοκρατία discussion above: Is there a standard accepted way of transliterating Greek names from their original alphabets? Right now it's a mess, for instance:
What I'd like to see is something like Transliteration of Russian into English, that is a standard way of romanizing Greek place and personal names that don't have a commonly accepted English name (like Athens, Cyclades). Markussep 15:40, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC).
" Eugene van der Pijll 09:53, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I found several more here: [1]. I think the Library of Congress transliteration is in the ALA-LC column. Unfortunately it uses ē for η, and the ISO and ELOT (Greek standardization office) versions also have unpractical diacritics (not allowed in wikipedia titles, for starters). But the UN version (see [2]) looks good, the sub-macron is apparently optional. I also found a transliteration table at List of Greek words with English derivatives, the column "modern" seems to be the BGN/PCGN version. I'll put the most current options in a table at Transliteration of Greek into English, then we can decide what's the best option for Wikipedia. Markussep 22:14, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
User:Woodstone made a remark that a transliteration should be reversible. The UN/ELOT transliteration in its full form is reversible: it uses sub-macrons for the ambiguous characters (e.g. i_ for η, v_ and f_ for υ). But I don't think it has to be reversible for our purposes, so we can leave the diacritics out (BTW I can't even make them). The UN/ELOT system is also used by Michelin on its maps of Greece. Or do you mean that it isn't a transliteration but a transcription or romanization? Markussep 14:08, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For what many greeks do, see Greeklish. Andreas 01:54, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I want to propose a naming convention for Greek names. My proposal is:
Markussep 17:59, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree that a convention needs to be established. The essential elements are the common English name, the Greek name (in Greek letters), and the modern pronunciation (if it is a modern person/thing).
Some examples of my recommendation:
One thing I'm not sure about: how to visually distinguish the Gytheion case (where the ancient form is the main entry and the modern pronunciation is in parentheses) from the Iraklion case (where the modern form is the main entry and a transliteration is in parentheses). Thoughts? -- Macrakis 23:21, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
My proposal refers only to the article title and the name used in references from other articles. I agree with you that the name in Greek alphabet should be in the first line, polytonic for classic, monotonic for modern Greek. Also a pronunciation guide should be somewhere in the first lines, if necessary. I'm not so happy about accents in titles. Your proposal for transcription of modern Greek looks more like the BGN/PCGN system. It's closer to the pronunciation, when pronounced the English way. I can live with that too, but I like the UN/ELOT system better. BTW the article title doesn't need to be easily pronounced, see for instance Zwijndrecht or Zschopau.
Your other remarks: I know people often use translations of their given names when introducing themselves to foreigners, for instance Russian men called Yevgeniy often call themselves Eugene. I think it's arbitrary: if people are much better known under their anglicized names (e.g. Joseph Stalin, not Iosif Stalin), use that, but otherwise keep it Greek. I don't know about Seferis, amazon has him as George. About places with different names in antiquity than present: I think that except for deserted cities, excavations etc. we should use the modern name for the article title, of course with redirects from the classic name. In the text use the classic name when referring to antiquity, modern when referring to present, no brackets. Irakleio is internationally known as Heraklion, I don't know why. Markussep 08:28, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I started moving Greek rivers to their modern Greek names, using the UN/ELOT romanization. That is, for rivers that aren't known in English under other names, for instance because they also flow through other countries. Aliákmon caused discussion on some points:
All peripheries of Greece have a "common English" name, usually derived from Latin. I see no problems there. The prefectures of Greece are a bit of a mess however, the worst in my opinion being Aitolia-Acarnania. That's not Latin, not a traditional name, and not a consistent romanization of Greek either (that would be Aitoloakarnanía, or Aitolia-Akarnania, or if you like Latin more Aetolia-Acarnania). There are some more that are halfway between Latin and (modern) Greek, e.g. Fthiotis (wouldn't Fthiotida be better?), and some that use the IMO not so great BGN romanization instead of the UN/ELOT official romanization, e.g Ilia (UN: Ileia), Kardhitsa (UN: Karditsa), Khios (UN: Chios), Evritania (UN: Evrytania), Kefalonia (UN: Kefallonia, this might be a traditional name), Rodhopi (UN: Rodopi), Viotia (UN: Voiotia). Opinions? Markussep 09:09, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
What about the turkish people at western thrace? It should be mentioned at the article.
The Turks of Western Thrace are not mentioned because they are not they main population of Hellas. Besides Greece respects its Turkish minority which has the same rights to the rest of the citizens. In addition Turkey always apears with no Yunan (Greek) minority, and consequently deprives them of a lot of their rights. Petros The Greek 1 July 2005 15:24 (UTC)
I'm afraid it's not entirely true. As a citizen of Turkey and a resident of Istanbul, I, as the majority of Turks living in this country, respect the rights of the Greek minority and proudly say that the relationship between two countries are finally coming to a civilised point (the guilt is equally shared); the issue would be them not being treated as a minority anymore, perhaps? For example, most foreign Istanbul residents are from very old and well-known families living in the best and wealthiest quarters of the city. They are by no means treated as foreign or minority. They have the right to attend their religious services (Every district of Istanbul has more than one church and synagogue, most of them very old and respected structures), they do not have any difficulty finding a job (after Turkey joined the world which is getting more and more globalised/and the improving relationship between Greece and Turkey supported the international job openings). The tension between Greece and Turkey is farce and unnecessary, and perhaps even enforced by other countries. I hope the lack of information above is not clouded by any prejudice. Linus 15 July 2005 23:09
There exists an article on the matter: Greek Muslim minority. It is also refered to in the main Greece article. Anyone with more insight in the matter please give it a read and an edit. It is still a rather POVish article (many edits have been from IMHO nationalist Greeks and Turks), and there is the issue of its naming. Michalis Famelis 14:15, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Under the heading of "Local Government" the information provided in this article states this: "The 51 nomoi subdivide into 147 eparchies (singular eparchia), which contain 1,033 municipalities: 900 urban municipalities (demoi) and 133 rural communities (koinotetes). Before 1999, Greece's local government structure featured 5,775 local authorities: 457 demoi and 5,318 koinotetes, subdivided into 12,817 localities (oikosmoi)." However, in reading through the Greek embassy information in Warsaw, Poland I noted the following: "Greece is divided into 52 prefectures (nomoi-singular: nomos) which are in turn divided into 147 provinces (eparchies-singular: eparchia). The eparchies are subdivided into 272 municipalities (demoi)." Have the municipalities been further enlarged? Tim Graff 13:52, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
The article falsely states that only far-right political groups want the expulsion of illegal immigrants from Greece, as well as the tightening of Greece's borders. However, the article does not state the fact that the majority of Greeks want the illegal immigrants to leave their country. Greece is experiencing many domestic difficulties that are only compounding in magnitude. Inflation, corruption, illegal immigration, terrorism, globalization are all problems that average Greeks are facing and are dissatisfied with every day.
Naturally, the Greek media is not honest in how it portrays the domestic affairs of Greece. Multiculturalism is something that Greeks find as infeasible to establish in their country being that the Greeks themselves want to maintain their ethnic, racial, cultural, religious, and linguistic identity. Since when was it a crime for indigenous peoples to preserve their identity and honestly speak out to the problems that their countries are facing internally and externally?
Political correctness in this article should be removed. Greeks are not racist people, but they have every right to defend their identity against anything that threatens it. Moreover, if people keep placing labels on others for speaking out the truth about Greece's problems, then they are ignoring the Greek social environment and the Greek social mentality. Truth should always precede neutrality or any form of political correctness.
For those who wish to place their labels on me ("racist," "Nazi," "fascist," etc.) are unaware of the fact that I am a preservationist and find that the Greeks have every right to maintain their identity not out of hatred, but out of love of their country and their identity. Greek islands are being sold to the highest bidder, and if God forbid a Greek were to speak out against such a thing he/she finds inappropriate, then the Greek is supposedly "evil" for speaking his/her mind.
What was it that Euripedes used to say? Oh yes, "A slave is he who cannot speak his thoughts."
If my words sound harsh to those who read it, then I apologize. I have no intention of starting trouble needlessly. However, the truth is the truth whether people like it or not.
- Deucalionite 7/16/05 6:12 P.M. EST
"Greek identity"... What Deucalionte implies is the moto "Motherland, Religion, Family" (Πατρίς, θρησκεία, οικογένεια), or that "Greek" identifies automatically with Greek Orthodox. And Tim, you're right, Greeks don't want to make multiculturalism work, (or anything else in this country, as a matter of fact) mostly due to xenophobia. Please take this in context, because in the current state of afairs is quite particular: the nuclear family in greece is no more, greece is a concervative society and most people try to relive that sence of 50s-60s family:head of family, mother, etc, etc, mostly due to the fact that there's nothing to replace that feeling/social structure. Nationalists and Ultra nationalists point of view are expanding in Greece, aided by the Greek-central point of view your average Greek is spoonfed by the Greek media. Example: today, ALPHA, one of the greek tv channels was camped outside Athens International Airport waiting for incoming Olympic Airways from London waiting for just the Greeks to tell them what's going on - they didn't even try to bother interviewing a Londonese about his or her feelings about the bombings or if s/he feels safe now. This is only a small example. Anyway, social cohesion is in an all-time low, mostly due to the lack of jobs and economic funds: Prices go really up (Greece is by far the most expensive country in the EU) and salaries stay the same. anyway, if you want a full analysis, let me know :) I wanna stop here, because there's been some critisism that I have "negative energy" and that I whine too much about the current state of afairs in Greece, where i should instead be marching to the beat of the Greek groupthink :) Project2501a 01:03, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
PS Where else have you heard Special Forces personel brag about beating to death a Pakistani refugee? It happened in Kho island, 'bout a year and a half ago. The saergant responsible for the beatings is still in active duty. And that's one incident, Amnesty International has at least 5 other in it's files, let me know if you want links.
The problem with this conversation is that both speakers(Deucalionite and Project 2501a)represent extremes of thought.
Deucalionite:How do you know "all" or "most" Greeks agree with you?TV polls?(Oooh so reliable...).Or do you read minds in some way?-- 62.103.130.140 21:25, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I would not blame Greeks as xenophobous...quite on the contrary, I believe that Greeks are a lot more friendly and open than many of our European friends. I am a Greek living and working in a European country, in a prestigious company and everyday I have to face the ¨fear¨ that people demonstrate me just because I am from a foreign country. Again from my own experience, I know that a foreigner working in Greece will be more wellcomed than I am here. I believe Greeks have the tendancy to think that everything that comes from abroad, whether this is a person, a product, or an idea is a lot better. A tourist would go to Greece and would start speaking in English and almost everybody would try to help him...that is something that you do not really find it everywhere. And that for me, shows that Greeks accept other cultures and are not afraid. Although sometimes, this tendancy we have, is over exagerated. Of course you will find Greeks that they have extreme points of view or very nationalistic...but that you will find it in every nation. To my opinion, Greeks have no fear of the foreigners they just want a control from the part of the government, which, at the end of the day is very logical. Naki 14/09/05
Deucalionite interestingly (and deviously?) makes a bunch of logical fallacies. Claiming that "the majority of greeks want the immigrants to leave" sounds really truth-like, but where is the evidence of that? Well, maybe in his close environment this could be true. But, how can he speak for the majority? He claims that his "research is based on the historical/social analysis of the Greek mentality, as well as an analysis of the Greek social environment and how various pressures/stimuli are affecting the dynamics of that environment." Maybe he even published a paper on that? I mean a scientific paper or something? Or are we talking tin-hat theories here? He also claims that the above has something to do with anti-multiculturalism among greeks, and goes on ranting against multiculturalism. Maybe his ranting should take place in Talk:Multiculturalism, not here. But even so, it is totaly absurd. Greek culture is a fine example of a multi-culture, of a culture that has blended, hybridized, mutated and transformed itself over the past 3000 years. Or maybe Deucalionite has never heard of, say, Pythagoras, who spent several decades learning math and metaphysics all around the Mediterranean only to create a marvel of the human history of Ideas, that is arithmetics? And Pythagoras is only a minor example of the fusions and multi-cultural interactions that have proppeled Greek culture along the millenia. Has he also no clue that the Greeks have always lived with people from other cultures apart from the last century? Imho, this is all a product of the growing insecurity among Greeks, caused by their enormous economic problems. And that is a frequent trend in history. When there's trouble at home, blame the foreigners... But, anyway wikipedia is not a soapbox, so I'll just stop here. Michalis Famelis 16:56, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Dear REX if you read carefully I said that I work for a prestigious company in Europe. So now maybe you understand why my IP is American. Nothing of what I said is a lie...just read carefully next time. Naki 15/09/05
Hey REX...if you do not know how IP adresses work...its not my fault. First find out and then come and talk. Have no need to lie...leave it here coz that's not the point of the discussion anyway. Naki 15/09/05
And now that I thought of it...please the rest of the people that are reading this excuse me because I know it has nothing to do with our discussion...in order to stop that stupidness of yours REX...check this IP and let me know. Naki 15/09/05
The IP 81.202.235.162 is from Spain. My my, Naqi. You do move around a lot, don't you? A couple of days ago you were in the USA and now you are in Spain. Did you get a friend of yours to make that edit? REX 20:30, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I would agree with Michali that it is very common in Greece when we face a problem we tend to blame the foreigners...I just hope that this mentality can change with the time. The more Greeks and the new generations of Greeks travel, work, make friends or have a contact with people from abroad the more they will learn to appreciate the nice things about Greece but also the problems that this country has and the reasons for their existance. Naki 15/09/05
However, the article does not state the fact that the majority of Greeks want the illegal immigrants to leave their country
Right now we have a jungle of lists of cities, municipalities etc. A collection:
If the Kapodistrias reform has been implemented already, many of these lists are out of date. It appears that municipalities and communities have more or less the same status. Since there aren't so many municipalities and communities left, I think they'll fit into one article List of municipalities and communities of Greece, grouped by prefecture.
About cities, towns and villages: is there a definition of "city" we can use, e.g. population over 20.000? The List of towns and villages in Greece doesn't make much sense to me. Markussep 10:33, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I copied the German Wikipedia list of cities (municipalities over 50.000 inhabitants) and added it to List of cities in Greece. It may need some better colours, and the old list should go somewhere else (alphabetical list of cities, towns and villages?). Markussep 10:05, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Is this article correct? Provinces of Greece. Should it be redirected to Prefectures of Greece? Revolución 04:27, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
The article Names of the Greeks has been nominated for WP:FAC. You can add your vote Wikipedia:Featured article candidates if you would like to support the article. Colossus 19:29, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
The usual translation of Ελληνικός (the adjective relating to Greece, its people, or its language) in English is "Greek". "Hellenic" is also proper English (definition in the Merriam-Webster dictionary: of or relating to Greece, its people, or its language; specifically : of or relating to ancient Greek history, culture, or art before the Hellenistic period), but not nearly as common as "Greek". Here in Wikipedia both terms are used, which I think can lead to unnecessary confusion. For instance the translation of Ελληνική Δημοκρατία right on top of this article: why not make that "Greek Republic" instead of "Hellenic Republic"?
I propose to replace "Hellenic" with "Greek" in all instances where it clearly refers to modern Greece, e.g. Greek Republic, Greek Army. Except when it is part of a proper English name, like Hellenic Journal. Reactions? Markussep 11:05, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
This sentence: "Unfortunately, less than a year later, that infrastructure has fallen almost completely into disuse, because of the lack of any coherent plans for their post-olympic use." sounds a little, well, judgemental. Is there abundant evidence for this? Is Greece unusual amongst Olympic host countries for not making heavy use of the stadiums in the next year? Jkelly 16:25, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/olympics/2004/writers/08/29/reilly.letter/index.html?cnn=yes DaveHM 19:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
An anon just added a pro-fascist website to the external links. While the website itself is mostly just articles praising Metaxas, it contains approving links to much more extreme Neo-Nazi websites. I clarified this in the link description, but that should not be taken as my voting that the link belongs here. Jkelly 00:40, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
I just reverted a change by an anon which swapped "Vlach" for "Aromanian". It is my understanding that not all Vlachs are Aromanians (although all Aromanians are Vlachs). Can we get a citatation for the ethnic makeup of Greece used in this article? Jkelly 05:06, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Over the course of the last few weeks, anons have been adding the adjective Greek (with a wikilink) in front of various places that the Byzatine Empire is mentioned in the article. Is there some other Byzatine Empire out there that we need to differentiate from? And, if there was, shouldn't that instead be discussed at Byzantine Empire? Jkelly 03:08, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
The reason is because in the Medieval times the empire was known as the Greek Empire (Imperium Grecaorum) or Empire of the Greeks.
Read the excerpt from the article of Byzantine Empire.
The term Byzantine Empire was invented in 1557, about a century after the fall of Constantinople by German historian Hieronymus Wolf, who introduced a system of Byzantine historiography in his work Corpus Historiae Byzantinae in order to distinguish ancient Roman from medieval Greek history without drawing attention to their ancient predecessors. Standardization of the term did not occur until the 18th century, when French authors such as Montesquieu began to popularize it. Hieronymus himself was influenced by the rift caused by the 9th century dispute between Romans (Byzantines as we render them today) and Franks, who, under Charlemagne's newly formed empire, and in concert with the Pope, attempted to legitimize their conquests by claiming inheritance of Roman rights in Italy thereby renouncing their eastern neighbours as true Romans
The Donation of Constantine, one of the most famous forged documents in history, played a crucial role in this. Henceforth, it was fixed policy in the West to refer to the emperor in Constantinople not by the usual "Imperator Romanorum" (Emperor of the Romans) which was now reserved for the Frankish monarch, but as "Imperator Graecorum" (Emperor of the Greeks) and the land as "Imperium Graecorum", "Graecia", "Terra Graecorum"
--- Also it's an article referring to Greece and Greece in those times was known as the Greek Empire and not the Byzantine. It's like calling nowadays the Medieval France The Parisian Empire because of the Capetian hub being Paris.
Although ethnic Macedonians in northern Greece make up a large minority with their own language and culture, their internationally recognized human rights and even their existence are vigorously denied by the Greek government. Free expression is restricted; several Macedonians have been prosecuted and convicted for the peaceful expression of their views. Moreover, ethnic Macedonians are discriminated against by the government's failure to permit the teaching of the Macedonian language. And ethnic Macedonians, particularly rights activists, are harassed by the government - followed and threatened by security forces - and subjected to economic and social pressures resulting from this harassment. All of these actions have led to a marked climate of fear in which a large number of ethnic Macedonians are reluctant to assert their Macedonian identity or to express their views openly. Ethnic Macedonian political refugees who fled northern Greece after the Greek Civil War of 1946-49, as well as their families who identify themselves as Macedonians, are denied permission to regain their citizenship, to resettle in, or even to visit, northern Greece. But ironically, all of these are possible for the political refugees who define themselves as Greeks. Ultimately, the government is pursuing every avenue to deny the Macedonians of Greece their ethnic identity.
- released by the Human Rights Watch
Please see the section "The Macedonians of Greece" on the HRW Publications page at http://hrw.org/doc/?t=europe_pub&c=greece —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.135.110.55 ( talk • contribs) .
I see why it is that you cannot link directly. Apparently this HRW article is available only by paying $7.00 through shop.yahoo.com. That is irritating. It also makes fair use concerns more pressing. How do other editors feel about including a single line raising the issue, with a reference to HRW's "human rights articles for sale" page, and discussing the issue further at Demographics of Greece? I am suggesting this as a compromise, and should not be understood to be arguing that it belongs in this article at all. Jkelly 03:45, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
DaveHM 15:01, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Although ethnic Macedonians in northern Greece make up a large minority with their own language and culture, their internationally recognized human rights and even their existence are vigorously denied by the Greek government. Free expression is restricted; several Macedonians have been prosecuted and convicted for the peaceful expression of their views. Moreover, ethnic Macedonians are discriminated against by the government's failure to permit the teaching of the Macedonian language. And ethnic Macedonians, particularly rights activists, are harassed by the government - followed and threatened by security forces - and subjected to economic and social pressures resulting from this harassment. All of these actions have led to a marked climate of fear in which a large number of ethnic Macedonians are reluctant to assert their Macedonian identity or to express their views openly. Ethnic Macedonian political refugees who fled northern Greece after the Greek Civil War of 1946-49, as well as their families who identify themselves as Macedonians, are denied permission to regain their citizenship, to resettle in, or even to visit, northern Greece. But ironically, all of these are possible for the political refugees who define themselves as Greeks. Ultimately, the government is pursuing every avenue to deny the Macedonians of Greece their ethnic identity.
- This is the summary of a publication by the Human Rights Watch [5]
I agree with 209.135.110.55 that Macedonians in Greece should at least be mentioned in the demographics -- Makedon45
Although there is a lot about the names of the Greek nation in this article, and while it is stated clearly that Greeks prefer to call themselves Hellenes and their country Hellas, the name of the arteicle is Greece. Could that possibly change to Hellas? I think it would be better if 'Greece' was redirected in 'Hellas' rather than the opposite! Petros The Greek 13:45, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
There is a so-called reference to a "study" in 2003 on the Greek population, which is not serious. I have left it there, but pointed out that it is not consistent with the official data in the Census and elsewhere. There are no more than 10,15m Greeks recorded in the 2001 Census, and more deaths than births of Greeks since then. The remainder of the population consists of immigrants, and any population increase is entirely due to immigration.Why is there no external link to a source which forms the basis of this paragraph?
Martin Baldwin-Edwards, Mediterranean MIgration Observatory, Athens
I deleted the paragraph added by Deucalionite because it is not backed by sources. Please find sources such as articles in reputed newspapers to substantiate your claims. Wikipedia is committed to a neutral point of view and does not allow own research. Andreas 20:50, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph (like the one that IPs continuously insert about that eleven-year-old Human Rights Watch report) does not conform to Wikipedia:Summary style. Information about minority populations in Greece should go to Demographics of Greece. The above paragraph is also doing an awful lot of speculation from its sources. Where are we supposed to see evidence that a) Greece (or Greek people) are more anti-immigrant than their neighbours and b) that the reason for this has to do with globalization and terrorism? I didn't see evidence for either in the cited articles, which I will admit to only scanning quickly. If the perceived racism/anti-immigrant position of Greek people is one of the most important things to say about the country, it is curious to me that the sources that are used to source this claim are so obscure. Jkelly 16:49, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Illegal immigrants as invaders? I am seriously troubled to see that some Greeks are trying to justify racist attitudes with this old chestnut of illegal immigration. Let's get some facts straight, before getting involved with opinions:
(1) There is absolutely NO comparison to be made between the French Maghrebi [often second and third generation migrants with French citizenship] rioting about socio-economic exclusion and the peaceful existence of recent immigrant communities in Greece. See the interview with me in Eleftherotypia for some explanation Eleftherotpia 12/11/05
(2) Although most immigrants entered Greece illegally, or semi-legally (with visas bought from corrupt Greek officials, or overstaying tourist visas] some 700.000 immigrants [plus another 200.000 "ethnic Greeks"] have been given legal status since 2002. Their continuous yo-yo movement into and out of legality is caused by the Greek state. It demands more money from immigrants than it does of Greeks (for social insurance and application fees for legal stay), does not impose sanctions upon Greek employers who refuse to pay the social insurance of immigrant workers, and even when all these conditions are satisfied has been unable to process the applications promptly. Read the discussions on some of these points at the website of the Ombudsman for Greece.
(3)All research on immigrants in Greece shows that they have been integrated into the economy and do not create unemployment in Greece. They work in rural areas [as farmhands, carers for the elderly, miscellanous semi-skilled work] and in urban areas [construction, industry, housecleaning and live-in housekeepers, carers for the elderly]. See the survey of Kassimis, for example, on rural areas. news report
(4) Owing to widespread corruption over the last 20 years or more, including the Church, all levels of the judiciary, the Greek state employees, along with the fake economic data of the last government, the Greek economy and in particular ordinary Greeks have serious financial problems. These problems have nothing to do with immigrants, but it is convenient for Greeks to pretend that it is someone else'e fault. Thus, the Greek population in recent opinion polls is extremely hostile to immigrants.
(5) The principal excuse given for Greek xenophobia is that immigrants are criminals, unlike the wonderfully law-abiding Greeks. First, although there is a clear link between violent crime and a small number of Russian and Albanian mafia, these people are not even categorised as immigrants: owing to the corruption of Greek officials, almost all high-ranking mafia have Greek passports. The semi-legal/illegal immigrants are mostly poor, politically unconnected workers who just try to make ends meet. Secondly, there are no proper data on crime in Greece. I have explained this 4 years ago to the Greek Police Federation [ http://mmo.gr/pdf/publications/publications_by_mmo_staff/Police_Gazette2001_MBE.pdf Crime and Migration (in Greek), that police data are not valid as indicators, but we need accurate information on arrests, prosecutions and convictions of people by nationality and other indicators. I also expressed this position to the Ministry of Justice. In four years, the Greek state has done precisely NOTHING to solve this information deficit. Therefore, we know very little about the causes of crime in Greece. The responsibility for this mess lies with GREEKS who run GREECE, and not with immigrants.
(6) The only terrorists in Greece are Greek, like the former Nov. 17th group. This has nothing to do with immigrants, so again this is Greek nonsense, looking for scapegoats instead of assuming responsibility for Greece. The serious structural problems in Greece are entirely the fault of Greek people, who for too long have failed to manage the country properly and have prioritised personal financial interest over Greece, political parties over Greece, and just about anything comes before Greece's national interests.
Martin Baldwin-Edwards -- 87.202.16.11 11:52, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
The poll cited above is good evidence for a high level of anti-immigrant feeling in Greece compared to other European countries. This should be incorporated into the article, but in more neutral language. -- Macrakis 22:54, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I will add some small details/corrections to the data on nationalities of immmigrants, as what is there is not quite correct. MBE-- 87.202.18.67 15:42, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
This "immigration" section needs to be removed and summerized with perhaps two sentences in demogapics. In france where there is a huge impact of immigration, there is no such section in wikipedia, same with spain, italy, germany etc. This seems to be an agendad driven addition from a couple of weeks ago to advertize a ngo (by an employee) and spins and creates an out of proportion nd out of balance section on thse general pages. I suggest that this information if carried in such depth sould be on pages generally discussing immigration and response throughout Europe.
Here is the text for the Wikipdia UK page within demographics with no sperate subsection: Recent immigrants, especially from the Commonwealth, speak many other languages, including Bengali, Cantonese, Hindi, Punjabi and Urdu. The United Kingdom has the largest number of Hindi speaking peoples outside of the Indian sub continent.'. DaveHM 11:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC) DaveHM 11:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Offensive material above I presume that DaveHM is referring to the discussions I have engaged in, and the insertion of links to scientific reports which I have produced. First, let me say that the Mediterranean Migration Observatory is not an NGO, and is part of a state university.We do not advertise: we conduct research and I am offering information to Wikipedia as a public good. Secondly, that I have inserted info from the ONLY official report to the Greek government, which is also available from the website of the Ministry of Interior research institute Hellenic Migration Policy Institute. Thirdly, that I find it offensive and ludicrous that unsourced material on the number of people in Greece is preferred to official data. I can only presume that DaveHM has his own agenda. I am reverting to the scientific material which makes this page on Greece rather better quality. -- Martin Baldwin-Edwards 12:21, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
THIS IS NOT A SERIOUS DISCUSSION
I realise now that the prevailing attacks on the standards of Wikipedia are correct.The remark abour "offensive" is my retort to being told that I am an employee of an NGO: in fact, I am the founder and director of a legitimate academic institution, which has produced independent research advice for the Greek state. One recent report in particular constitutes, along with the National Statistical Service of Greece, the only official data. Prior to that, I noticed that wikipedia was sourcing STUDENT WORKS hosted on our website, instead of serious research by professional.
If you people think it is ok to put unsourced material and undergraduate essays, and also falsely characterise the biographies of people like myself who include our full names and can be contacted, you are simply fools.
The material on immigration is included because some Greeks here insisted on it: I did not do so, but merely tried to improve it.
If this is the best you can do, better forget it. Wikipedia is a failure.-- Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:09, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
User:DaveHM: I agree that the immigration section is much too long. But MBE didn't put it in there to self-promote. MBE and I worked on that material in response to an edit war with User:Deucalionite who kept trying to put in unsourced stuff like "the majority of the Greek populace are calling for the expulsion of all illegal immigrants and the strengthening of Greece's borders" (see, e.g., this edit). I'd just as soon take it out, as would you. I don't know about MBE, but it sounds like he may not disagree. Perhaps User:Deucalionite's ardor has cooled to the degree that we can condense this section and put its best parts in an appropriate subarticle, about demographics, or better yet, politics or elections or political parties. As for FYROM, I suspect a clerical error (there's frequent edit-warring over that link), but in any case, I agree with you.-- Inonit 15:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Sorry. Forgot to sign in.
I put back the immigration section in order to get some answers. But before anyone starts yelling at me for putting back the immigration section, I just want to simply know why it was removed in the first place. If I am given very good reasons, then I will not argue about the section's removal from the article (though it would be a great injustice to those who want to know about current Greek sentiments toward illegal immigrants).
I think that there is no need to remove the section because its contents were quite neutral (hasn't the section been "wikified" enough?). Moreover, it nicely represents how Greeks feel about illegal immigration. I do not understand why a neutral section about something one cannot ignore in terms of current events should be removed. I checked the information and I did not find anything offensive in the overall section. Moreover, I did not complain or argue about it being neutrally presented in the article.
Inonit assumes that the statements I have made a while ago were unsubstantiated. However, I did substantiate them with sources a while back before getting into an argument with a particular user who just rambled on uselessly. Of course, others eventually provided different sources from what I had and those sources were chosen as evidence for the section's content about Greek sentiment toward illegal immigration.
Eventually, I agreed that the section about illegal immigration be presented in the demographics section of the article in a neutral fashion. Inonit agreed to it too. Again, if there is a really good reason for the removal of the section, then I can understand and I will leave the article alone. If not, then I am afraid that it would best for this section to remain in the article. Over and out. - Deucalionite 12/17/05 4:02 P.M. EST
Which other country articles summerize how xxxx peopels feel about immigration? Current Greek sentments toward illegal immigration mirror exactly what you find everywhere. Does the page on the United States mention the armed non governmental anti-immigrant groups which patrol the border? Seems evidently more xenophobic. The question of stating the obvious, every nation has tensions with immigration. DaveHM 21:27, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
What is Wikipedia policy? I fail to understand why a detailed and accurate paragraph in the Greece entry, is challenged by DaveHM on the grounds that other countries do not have such detail. Is this the official policy of Wikipedia? I think we need some editorial contribution here, not random opinions. As fas as the current content is concerned, it is unreferenced and contentious. Who says there are 1m immigrants in Greece? Who says they are mainly illegal? [this is not the conclusion of my report]. Who says they are "part-time" and what the f* does that mean anyway?
Given that we managed to write a section that everybody accepted as neutral and accurate, what was the point of deleting it? Again, this needs Wikipedia editorial control...-- Martin Baldwin-Edwards 01:20, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, at the risk of seeming self-interested, I should point out to Inonit that Greece is not only about Greeks. When some 10% of the population consists of non-Greeks, most of whom arrived since the 1990s, is this not relevant to the country? Incidentally, on the wikipedia page for my own country of Wales, there is a massive entry on different nationalities living there.
Besides the above point, you have failed to deal with my point that what is currently written about immigration is highly partial and misleading, as well as inaccurate. If this is not dealt with in the next few days, I will revert to what was properly written with my contribution. -- Martin Baldwin-Edwards 11:35, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I have been puzzled about the status and subdivisions of Attica. If I understand the Greek ministry of the interior correctly (my Greek is very shaky), Attica is a periphery (Περιφέρεια). It is subdivided into four prefectures (Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση): Athens, Piraeus, West Attica and East Attica. However, some prefectures (Athens, Piraeus, and outside Attica also Drama, Kavala, Xanthi, Evros and Rhodope) are called differently (Νομαρχιακό Διαμέρισμα), and grouped into Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση. Is this correct? If it is, this should be reflected in the various articles about the subdivisions of Greece. Markussep 12:58, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Can you expand this article Northern Greece instead of redirect to Greece? Thankx. Bonaparte talk 09:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Why does it say Hellada formely Hellas? Arent the names interchangeable?
I see that this page is now little more than an advertisement for tourism, with little factual information or critical analysis. Maybe we can add a small paragraph, explaining that all modern Greeks care about is MONEY. -- 87.202.25.88 17:15, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Stop doing this. The page is free for everyone to add or remove something but it shouldn't be changed every minute. And for the above guy who removed whole paragraphs: Where did u find the "nationalistic context"? Should modern Greeks ask you with what they are gonna care about? What's ur problem? Get a life.
Fuck you. The page is free for Greeks to fuck up, right. Keep up the good work. -- 87.202.25.88 18:29, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Those phrases show what kind of person you are...And you will not tell us what is "nationalistic" and what is not. Greece belongs to the Greeks.
I removed the cleanup tag. It appeared that it was placed due to issues with the ugly formatting of pictures. Since I see no problems with the formatting now, I removed it. Since the page has been contentiously edited I just wanted to explain my removal. I'm No Parking and I approved this message 13:49, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Should the fact that a formed King of Greece still claims the title be mentioned in the infobox? I think so. Pelegius, not having logged in.
I notice that some time in the last couple of months the sports section was removed. The article's length is definitely a concern, but I am unsure that cutting that section is the best way to trim it. Thoughts? Jkelly 00:13, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This time the anon was posting from an IP address previously used by User:Bitola. There seems to be an organized effort to change FYROM to RoM in Greek related articles (previously in Florina, currently in Vergina Sun) with 2-3 people simultaneously coming in and rving to RoM , deleting any references to the naming dispute, in violation of the naming policy (see Talk:Vergina Sun). Using wolf-pack tactics and anonymity, these people are trying to achive in WP what they can't achieve in places where facts matter (the UN, the EU, etc.). Sysin 11:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Greece/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Some sections need clean-up and copy-editing. It is also under-citated.-- Yannismarou 11:32, 13 October 2006 (UTC) hahaha lol |
Last edited at 16:27, 13 February 2012 (UTC). Substituted at 20:28, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
the Hellenic Republic (in Greek: Ελληνική Δημοκρατία) (Helleniké Demokratía)
I changed the transliteration of Ελληνική Δημοκρατία to
Helleniké Demokratía.
I did it because I did not believe that Ellinikí Dhimokratía was an
appropriate transliteration. Helleniké Demokratía is a not very successful attempt to write Hellēnikḗ Dēmokratía which
I believe is an accurate transliteration of Ἑλληνική Δημοκρατία, because:
the δασεία (The symbol on the Ἑ) becomes H and the letter eta (η) becomes
ē, because the Greek vowels η and
ω are traditionally the long counterparts of the short vowels
ε and ο which are transliterated as
e and o
so naturally the long versions would be ē
and ō
(e and o
with a macron).
Because Greek does not have a standard form of
transliteration I admit it is hard to know exactly what the transliteration
should be and I know that the one I entered is not phoenetic, but it is an
accurate representation the value of each letter and anyone who is familiar with
Greek normally would be able to read it.
Please note that this method
of transliteration is the same one the Romans used when transliterating borrowed
words into the Latin alphabet. Some of those words have passed into English
using a similar spelling. For example: Hellenes (Ἑλληνες
/ Héllēnes),
Athens (Ἀθῆναι
/ Athḗnai),
Homer (Ὅμηρος
/ Hómēros), Hagia Sophia (Ἀγία
Σοφία / Hagía
Sophía), hoi polloi (Οἱ
πολλοί / hoi
polloí).
If you still object to the trasliteration
please, don't hesitate to change it. I am aware that I may be wrong.
REX
I see your point. Helleniké Demokratía does not inform the reader how to pronounce Ἑλληνική Δημοκρατία. However, neither does Ellinikí Dhimokratía. As a native speaker of both English and Greek I know that the Greeks pronounce Ἑλληνική Δημοκρατία as IPA: /ɛˌliniˈki ðiˌmokɾæˈtiæ/ but English speakers would pronounce Ellinikí Dhimokratía as IPA: /ɛˌlɪnɪˈkɪ dʰɪˌmokɹaˈtia/. To get an English speaker to pronounce it as IPA: /ɛˌliniˈki ðiˌmokɾæˈtiæ/ is not always possible as they normally pronounce the letter a as IPA: /a/ except for in words with one syllable (for example cat IPA: /kæt/) and the letter r as IPA: /ɹ/. The closest we could get would be to spell it as Elleeneekee Theemokrateea, which would be pronounced IPA: /ɛˌliniˈki ðiˌmokɹaˈtia/. Therefore, given that we can’t provide a definite pronunciation, I believe that we should try to use a transliteration that most English speakers would be familiar with because of the abundance of Greek words in English and because the Erasmic pronunciation is so widespread (please look at the transliterations on the page Greek alphabet) or to provide its pronunciation in the IPA or SAMPA. Let me know what you think. REX 17:51, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In spite of the fact that many Greeks believe that their language has been pronounced the same way in classical times as it is today, the mainstream view of scholars in linguistics including those teaching at Greek universities is the reconstructed Greek pronunciation, which is not identical with the Erasmian one. The above cited article by Caragounis presents a dissident view. There is ample discussion about this topic, wich seems to be a hot issue for some Greeks, in Talk:Ancient Greek pronunciation. Andreas 01:27, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Αrticle does not reflect that there is no seperation of State and Church in Greece and that the Church ofter offers its -unsolicited- opinion about matters such as foreing policy and the Great Greek Spitit[tm]
Ά, ρε τραγοπαπάδες, χέρι ξύλο που θέλετε...
Project2501a 11:14, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"Major challenges remaining include the reduction of unemployment and further restructuring of the economy, including privatising several state enterprises, undertaking social security reforms, overhauling the tax system, and minimising bureaucratic inefficiencies." - Not a neutral point of view, in fact more of a manifesto. Is this the agena of the current administration? Suggest this be rephrased. -- harry 14:38, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
-- Project2501a 10:50, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Why "Hellenic Republic" rather than "Greek Democracy"? I'd have thought the latter is an accurate translation of the official Greek name of the country. Michael Hardy 23:17 Feb 1, 2003 (UTC)
Hellenic Republic seems to be the standard usage in English. And the Kind was always King of the Hellenes. Don't ask me why. :-) -- Zoe
Actually the word greek is greek too, but it refers to an ancient greek colony in what is nowadays Italy. Latins (and other latin derived languages after them) named all greek speakers "greeks" assuming it was the name of all the Helllenes. It was not and this 2000 year old mistake is what Greece is trying to correct now.
I think something more needs to be mentioned about the Greek military junta of the 1970s. Are these articles imported from the CIA factbook? I would not think they would want to mention it since they supported them.
I think something more needs to be mentioned about the current state of drafted soldiers and those denying service in Greece. or at least, i should make an article/point to the draft article already on Wikipedia
Hell I think a whole article on greek beurocracy and the re-occuring habbit of the greek goverment/public sector always trying to weasel themselves out of any bad situation, and never taking responsibility for their actions.
Project2501a 10:50, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I also think that a notice should be made about the current racist/neo-con attitude of the Greeks (yes, i am Greek, yes, i live in Athens. Project2501a 10:50, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(Mostly to Adam Carr)
To this day, the royal family is not allowed to enter Greece (which caused considerable diplomatic problems when the Kings of Spain visited Greece a few years ago because the Queen is the sister of the deposed King of Greece). I thought the reason why the monarchy was thrown out of Greece was that the King was perveived by the Greek people to be complicit in the establishment of the dictatorship of the colonels. If the monarchy had been popular, the abolition of the Monarchy by the (already in trouble) dictatorship in 1973 would have been an impopular measure and the 1974 referendum would not have confirmed it. — Miguel 22:44, 2004 Apr 25 (UTC)
That is all true. Nevertheless, the statement that "the monarchy supported the dictatorship" is a contested one and cannot be simply stated as a fact. I believe King Constantine actually tried to retract his support for the regime and stage a counter-coup in 1968 which was why he had to leave the country, and why the regime then purported to abolish the monarchy. Adam 00:43, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
If at the time of the referendum the public perception that the King was complicit played an important role in the outcome of the referendum, that should be pointed out. If it is also a fact that the role of Constantine is debated, that should be pointed out.
I guess what this shows is that the current description of the facts (and of their historical interpretation) in the article is incomplete and too brief, and I hope someone with better knowledge of them than me would go in and expand the article(s). It's like most pages about Cyprus mentioning the Turkish invasion but not the Greek coup, or the fact that the dictatorship fell largely because of its involvement in the botched coup. Then again, was the intervention in Cyprus popular and the defeat to Turkey that was impopular, or was the coup perceived to be inappropriate regardless of the outcome?
I am writing what I (mistakenly) understood were (established) facts. If the situation is more complicated, I think it is better to add qualifications and more facts than to revert to the previous, incomplete account. — Miguel 01:19, 2004 Apr 26 (UTC)
Detailed discussion of these points belongs either in History of Modern Greece or Constantine II of Greece. Adam 01:28, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
History of Modern Greece makes no mention of the monarchy between 1950 and the 1974 referendum, which is sort of odd. At least in relation with the events of 1967 it should be mentioned. — Miguel 01:41, 2004 Apr 26 (UTC)
Yes I agree. I will have a go at it later. Adam 01:46, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Sources of my edits:
Am I missing something or is there no mention of the original Summer Olympic Games anywhere in the Greek articles? This has to be fixed, surely! violet/riga (t) 16:28, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The Districts of Greece are:
Ήπειρος -Ipiros Μακεδονία -Macedonia Στερεά Ελλάδα-Sterea Ellada Ιόνια Νησιά-Ionia Nisia Νησιά Αιγαίου-Nisia Eyeou Πελοπόννησος-Peloponisos Κρήτη-Kriti
The bolded part of the phrase "Tensions continue to exist between Greece and Turkey over Cyprus and the delimitation of borders in the Aegean Sea" has been described as a "foolish comment" in 82.35.40.249's edit summaries, or even worse, "rewriting history the Turkish way". So he removed it. I've explained to him in his talk page that this is neither favoring Turkey nor endorsing its claims, and that this is a representation of the facts only. Despite my suggestions, he kept reverting the page to his version. Doesn't the issue of the Aegean "gray zones" deserve a mention? Comments, please. Etz Haim 16:16, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Since it is not recongised by anyone as an issue, except by Turkey, no it does not deserve a mention. You can write it however in Turkey´s page under the category irrational, old-fashioned aggressive claims against neighbours. Sotiris, 21 May 2005
Having followed this during a sojourn in the region, which included time in both Greece and Turkey, and quite a bit of work with legal issues, the policy of the Government of Turkey is that its claims against the accepted boundaries and maritime economic rights should not be refered to the Internationl Court of Justice, and that en force treaties, which are quite detailed, need to be "revised." Additionally it is the position of Turkey that it should be exempted from the United Nations Covention on the Law of the Sea, of which the U.S., and almost every country is a signatory, and which defines rights as well as the mechanism for judicial settlement of disputes. Therefore, by its nature, the term "Grey Areas" is an endorsement of Turkey's position.
The relationsip between Greece and Turkey has vastly improved, for a number of reasons, including further democratization within Turkey, which in turn are driven by EU effects. DaveHM 18:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
The article states: "Note however that apart from Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, temples of other religions do not exist in the capital, mainly due to opposition from the Greek Church."
This is not true (I'm Greek); for example, there are many Mosques in Athens (since there are many Muslim immigrants, mainly from Pakistan). There is a discussion about building a mosque and a cultural centre 50km off the city-centre (in Spata), funded by some Saudis, and that's where the Greek state has been hesitant.
Since I'm not a wikipedian, can someone correct this? Thank you :)
(Please, sign your posts)
Actually the work "Grecos" is just an older form of "Ellinas" Aristotle writes that at some point that "this the land of the Pelasgians where the Ellines now inhabit, who were previously known as Greeks and Sellians."
User:128.113.201.75 has reverted the article thrice now. He is tryint to inject a nationalistic POV into the article by suggesting that most greeks want all immigrants in greece deported.
i've left a message in his talk page. if he keeps at it, i'm asking for page protection.
Project2501a 13:23, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, it seems I accidentally screwed up editing this page.I tried to revert to an earlier (non vandalised) version of this page and actually reinstated the vandalised parts.My bad. -- Jsone42 18:48, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
To eleborate on the Ελληνική Δημοκρατία discussion above: Is there a standard accepted way of transliterating Greek names from their original alphabets? Right now it's a mess, for instance:
What I'd like to see is something like Transliteration of Russian into English, that is a standard way of romanizing Greek place and personal names that don't have a commonly accepted English name (like Athens, Cyclades). Markussep 15:40, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC).
" Eugene van der Pijll 09:53, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I found several more here: [1]. I think the Library of Congress transliteration is in the ALA-LC column. Unfortunately it uses ē for η, and the ISO and ELOT (Greek standardization office) versions also have unpractical diacritics (not allowed in wikipedia titles, for starters). But the UN version (see [2]) looks good, the sub-macron is apparently optional. I also found a transliteration table at List of Greek words with English derivatives, the column "modern" seems to be the BGN/PCGN version. I'll put the most current options in a table at Transliteration of Greek into English, then we can decide what's the best option for Wikipedia. Markussep 22:14, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
User:Woodstone made a remark that a transliteration should be reversible. The UN/ELOT transliteration in its full form is reversible: it uses sub-macrons for the ambiguous characters (e.g. i_ for η, v_ and f_ for υ). But I don't think it has to be reversible for our purposes, so we can leave the diacritics out (BTW I can't even make them). The UN/ELOT system is also used by Michelin on its maps of Greece. Or do you mean that it isn't a transliteration but a transcription or romanization? Markussep 14:08, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For what many greeks do, see Greeklish. Andreas 01:54, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I want to propose a naming convention for Greek names. My proposal is:
Markussep 17:59, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree that a convention needs to be established. The essential elements are the common English name, the Greek name (in Greek letters), and the modern pronunciation (if it is a modern person/thing).
Some examples of my recommendation:
One thing I'm not sure about: how to visually distinguish the Gytheion case (where the ancient form is the main entry and the modern pronunciation is in parentheses) from the Iraklion case (where the modern form is the main entry and a transliteration is in parentheses). Thoughts? -- Macrakis 23:21, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
My proposal refers only to the article title and the name used in references from other articles. I agree with you that the name in Greek alphabet should be in the first line, polytonic for classic, monotonic for modern Greek. Also a pronunciation guide should be somewhere in the first lines, if necessary. I'm not so happy about accents in titles. Your proposal for transcription of modern Greek looks more like the BGN/PCGN system. It's closer to the pronunciation, when pronounced the English way. I can live with that too, but I like the UN/ELOT system better. BTW the article title doesn't need to be easily pronounced, see for instance Zwijndrecht or Zschopau.
Your other remarks: I know people often use translations of their given names when introducing themselves to foreigners, for instance Russian men called Yevgeniy often call themselves Eugene. I think it's arbitrary: if people are much better known under their anglicized names (e.g. Joseph Stalin, not Iosif Stalin), use that, but otherwise keep it Greek. I don't know about Seferis, amazon has him as George. About places with different names in antiquity than present: I think that except for deserted cities, excavations etc. we should use the modern name for the article title, of course with redirects from the classic name. In the text use the classic name when referring to antiquity, modern when referring to present, no brackets. Irakleio is internationally known as Heraklion, I don't know why. Markussep 08:28, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I started moving Greek rivers to their modern Greek names, using the UN/ELOT romanization. That is, for rivers that aren't known in English under other names, for instance because they also flow through other countries. Aliákmon caused discussion on some points:
All peripheries of Greece have a "common English" name, usually derived from Latin. I see no problems there. The prefectures of Greece are a bit of a mess however, the worst in my opinion being Aitolia-Acarnania. That's not Latin, not a traditional name, and not a consistent romanization of Greek either (that would be Aitoloakarnanía, or Aitolia-Akarnania, or if you like Latin more Aetolia-Acarnania). There are some more that are halfway between Latin and (modern) Greek, e.g. Fthiotis (wouldn't Fthiotida be better?), and some that use the IMO not so great BGN romanization instead of the UN/ELOT official romanization, e.g Ilia (UN: Ileia), Kardhitsa (UN: Karditsa), Khios (UN: Chios), Evritania (UN: Evrytania), Kefalonia (UN: Kefallonia, this might be a traditional name), Rodhopi (UN: Rodopi), Viotia (UN: Voiotia). Opinions? Markussep 09:09, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
What about the turkish people at western thrace? It should be mentioned at the article.
The Turks of Western Thrace are not mentioned because they are not they main population of Hellas. Besides Greece respects its Turkish minority which has the same rights to the rest of the citizens. In addition Turkey always apears with no Yunan (Greek) minority, and consequently deprives them of a lot of their rights. Petros The Greek 1 July 2005 15:24 (UTC)
I'm afraid it's not entirely true. As a citizen of Turkey and a resident of Istanbul, I, as the majority of Turks living in this country, respect the rights of the Greek minority and proudly say that the relationship between two countries are finally coming to a civilised point (the guilt is equally shared); the issue would be them not being treated as a minority anymore, perhaps? For example, most foreign Istanbul residents are from very old and well-known families living in the best and wealthiest quarters of the city. They are by no means treated as foreign or minority. They have the right to attend their religious services (Every district of Istanbul has more than one church and synagogue, most of them very old and respected structures), they do not have any difficulty finding a job (after Turkey joined the world which is getting more and more globalised/and the improving relationship between Greece and Turkey supported the international job openings). The tension between Greece and Turkey is farce and unnecessary, and perhaps even enforced by other countries. I hope the lack of information above is not clouded by any prejudice. Linus 15 July 2005 23:09
There exists an article on the matter: Greek Muslim minority. It is also refered to in the main Greece article. Anyone with more insight in the matter please give it a read and an edit. It is still a rather POVish article (many edits have been from IMHO nationalist Greeks and Turks), and there is the issue of its naming. Michalis Famelis 14:15, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Under the heading of "Local Government" the information provided in this article states this: "The 51 nomoi subdivide into 147 eparchies (singular eparchia), which contain 1,033 municipalities: 900 urban municipalities (demoi) and 133 rural communities (koinotetes). Before 1999, Greece's local government structure featured 5,775 local authorities: 457 demoi and 5,318 koinotetes, subdivided into 12,817 localities (oikosmoi)." However, in reading through the Greek embassy information in Warsaw, Poland I noted the following: "Greece is divided into 52 prefectures (nomoi-singular: nomos) which are in turn divided into 147 provinces (eparchies-singular: eparchia). The eparchies are subdivided into 272 municipalities (demoi)." Have the municipalities been further enlarged? Tim Graff 13:52, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
The article falsely states that only far-right political groups want the expulsion of illegal immigrants from Greece, as well as the tightening of Greece's borders. However, the article does not state the fact that the majority of Greeks want the illegal immigrants to leave their country. Greece is experiencing many domestic difficulties that are only compounding in magnitude. Inflation, corruption, illegal immigration, terrorism, globalization are all problems that average Greeks are facing and are dissatisfied with every day.
Naturally, the Greek media is not honest in how it portrays the domestic affairs of Greece. Multiculturalism is something that Greeks find as infeasible to establish in their country being that the Greeks themselves want to maintain their ethnic, racial, cultural, religious, and linguistic identity. Since when was it a crime for indigenous peoples to preserve their identity and honestly speak out to the problems that their countries are facing internally and externally?
Political correctness in this article should be removed. Greeks are not racist people, but they have every right to defend their identity against anything that threatens it. Moreover, if people keep placing labels on others for speaking out the truth about Greece's problems, then they are ignoring the Greek social environment and the Greek social mentality. Truth should always precede neutrality or any form of political correctness.
For those who wish to place their labels on me ("racist," "Nazi," "fascist," etc.) are unaware of the fact that I am a preservationist and find that the Greeks have every right to maintain their identity not out of hatred, but out of love of their country and their identity. Greek islands are being sold to the highest bidder, and if God forbid a Greek were to speak out against such a thing he/she finds inappropriate, then the Greek is supposedly "evil" for speaking his/her mind.
What was it that Euripedes used to say? Oh yes, "A slave is he who cannot speak his thoughts."
If my words sound harsh to those who read it, then I apologize. I have no intention of starting trouble needlessly. However, the truth is the truth whether people like it or not.
- Deucalionite 7/16/05 6:12 P.M. EST
"Greek identity"... What Deucalionte implies is the moto "Motherland, Religion, Family" (Πατρίς, θρησκεία, οικογένεια), or that "Greek" identifies automatically with Greek Orthodox. And Tim, you're right, Greeks don't want to make multiculturalism work, (or anything else in this country, as a matter of fact) mostly due to xenophobia. Please take this in context, because in the current state of afairs is quite particular: the nuclear family in greece is no more, greece is a concervative society and most people try to relive that sence of 50s-60s family:head of family, mother, etc, etc, mostly due to the fact that there's nothing to replace that feeling/social structure. Nationalists and Ultra nationalists point of view are expanding in Greece, aided by the Greek-central point of view your average Greek is spoonfed by the Greek media. Example: today, ALPHA, one of the greek tv channels was camped outside Athens International Airport waiting for incoming Olympic Airways from London waiting for just the Greeks to tell them what's going on - they didn't even try to bother interviewing a Londonese about his or her feelings about the bombings or if s/he feels safe now. This is only a small example. Anyway, social cohesion is in an all-time low, mostly due to the lack of jobs and economic funds: Prices go really up (Greece is by far the most expensive country in the EU) and salaries stay the same. anyway, if you want a full analysis, let me know :) I wanna stop here, because there's been some critisism that I have "negative energy" and that I whine too much about the current state of afairs in Greece, where i should instead be marching to the beat of the Greek groupthink :) Project2501a 01:03, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
PS Where else have you heard Special Forces personel brag about beating to death a Pakistani refugee? It happened in Kho island, 'bout a year and a half ago. The saergant responsible for the beatings is still in active duty. And that's one incident, Amnesty International has at least 5 other in it's files, let me know if you want links.
The problem with this conversation is that both speakers(Deucalionite and Project 2501a)represent extremes of thought.
Deucalionite:How do you know "all" or "most" Greeks agree with you?TV polls?(Oooh so reliable...).Or do you read minds in some way?-- 62.103.130.140 21:25, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I would not blame Greeks as xenophobous...quite on the contrary, I believe that Greeks are a lot more friendly and open than many of our European friends. I am a Greek living and working in a European country, in a prestigious company and everyday I have to face the ¨fear¨ that people demonstrate me just because I am from a foreign country. Again from my own experience, I know that a foreigner working in Greece will be more wellcomed than I am here. I believe Greeks have the tendancy to think that everything that comes from abroad, whether this is a person, a product, or an idea is a lot better. A tourist would go to Greece and would start speaking in English and almost everybody would try to help him...that is something that you do not really find it everywhere. And that for me, shows that Greeks accept other cultures and are not afraid. Although sometimes, this tendancy we have, is over exagerated. Of course you will find Greeks that they have extreme points of view or very nationalistic...but that you will find it in every nation. To my opinion, Greeks have no fear of the foreigners they just want a control from the part of the government, which, at the end of the day is very logical. Naki 14/09/05
Deucalionite interestingly (and deviously?) makes a bunch of logical fallacies. Claiming that "the majority of greeks want the immigrants to leave" sounds really truth-like, but where is the evidence of that? Well, maybe in his close environment this could be true. But, how can he speak for the majority? He claims that his "research is based on the historical/social analysis of the Greek mentality, as well as an analysis of the Greek social environment and how various pressures/stimuli are affecting the dynamics of that environment." Maybe he even published a paper on that? I mean a scientific paper or something? Or are we talking tin-hat theories here? He also claims that the above has something to do with anti-multiculturalism among greeks, and goes on ranting against multiculturalism. Maybe his ranting should take place in Talk:Multiculturalism, not here. But even so, it is totaly absurd. Greek culture is a fine example of a multi-culture, of a culture that has blended, hybridized, mutated and transformed itself over the past 3000 years. Or maybe Deucalionite has never heard of, say, Pythagoras, who spent several decades learning math and metaphysics all around the Mediterranean only to create a marvel of the human history of Ideas, that is arithmetics? And Pythagoras is only a minor example of the fusions and multi-cultural interactions that have proppeled Greek culture along the millenia. Has he also no clue that the Greeks have always lived with people from other cultures apart from the last century? Imho, this is all a product of the growing insecurity among Greeks, caused by their enormous economic problems. And that is a frequent trend in history. When there's trouble at home, blame the foreigners... But, anyway wikipedia is not a soapbox, so I'll just stop here. Michalis Famelis 16:56, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Dear REX if you read carefully I said that I work for a prestigious company in Europe. So now maybe you understand why my IP is American. Nothing of what I said is a lie...just read carefully next time. Naki 15/09/05
Hey REX...if you do not know how IP adresses work...its not my fault. First find out and then come and talk. Have no need to lie...leave it here coz that's not the point of the discussion anyway. Naki 15/09/05
And now that I thought of it...please the rest of the people that are reading this excuse me because I know it has nothing to do with our discussion...in order to stop that stupidness of yours REX...check this IP and let me know. Naki 15/09/05
The IP 81.202.235.162 is from Spain. My my, Naqi. You do move around a lot, don't you? A couple of days ago you were in the USA and now you are in Spain. Did you get a friend of yours to make that edit? REX 20:30, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I would agree with Michali that it is very common in Greece when we face a problem we tend to blame the foreigners...I just hope that this mentality can change with the time. The more Greeks and the new generations of Greeks travel, work, make friends or have a contact with people from abroad the more they will learn to appreciate the nice things about Greece but also the problems that this country has and the reasons for their existance. Naki 15/09/05
However, the article does not state the fact that the majority of Greeks want the illegal immigrants to leave their country
Right now we have a jungle of lists of cities, municipalities etc. A collection:
If the Kapodistrias reform has been implemented already, many of these lists are out of date. It appears that municipalities and communities have more or less the same status. Since there aren't so many municipalities and communities left, I think they'll fit into one article List of municipalities and communities of Greece, grouped by prefecture.
About cities, towns and villages: is there a definition of "city" we can use, e.g. population over 20.000? The List of towns and villages in Greece doesn't make much sense to me. Markussep 10:33, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I copied the German Wikipedia list of cities (municipalities over 50.000 inhabitants) and added it to List of cities in Greece. It may need some better colours, and the old list should go somewhere else (alphabetical list of cities, towns and villages?). Markussep 10:05, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Is this article correct? Provinces of Greece. Should it be redirected to Prefectures of Greece? Revolución 04:27, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
The article Names of the Greeks has been nominated for WP:FAC. You can add your vote Wikipedia:Featured article candidates if you would like to support the article. Colossus 19:29, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
The usual translation of Ελληνικός (the adjective relating to Greece, its people, or its language) in English is "Greek". "Hellenic" is also proper English (definition in the Merriam-Webster dictionary: of or relating to Greece, its people, or its language; specifically : of or relating to ancient Greek history, culture, or art before the Hellenistic period), but not nearly as common as "Greek". Here in Wikipedia both terms are used, which I think can lead to unnecessary confusion. For instance the translation of Ελληνική Δημοκρατία right on top of this article: why not make that "Greek Republic" instead of "Hellenic Republic"?
I propose to replace "Hellenic" with "Greek" in all instances where it clearly refers to modern Greece, e.g. Greek Republic, Greek Army. Except when it is part of a proper English name, like Hellenic Journal. Reactions? Markussep 11:05, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
This sentence: "Unfortunately, less than a year later, that infrastructure has fallen almost completely into disuse, because of the lack of any coherent plans for their post-olympic use." sounds a little, well, judgemental. Is there abundant evidence for this? Is Greece unusual amongst Olympic host countries for not making heavy use of the stadiums in the next year? Jkelly 16:25, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/olympics/2004/writers/08/29/reilly.letter/index.html?cnn=yes DaveHM 19:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
An anon just added a pro-fascist website to the external links. While the website itself is mostly just articles praising Metaxas, it contains approving links to much more extreme Neo-Nazi websites. I clarified this in the link description, but that should not be taken as my voting that the link belongs here. Jkelly 00:40, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
I just reverted a change by an anon which swapped "Vlach" for "Aromanian". It is my understanding that not all Vlachs are Aromanians (although all Aromanians are Vlachs). Can we get a citatation for the ethnic makeup of Greece used in this article? Jkelly 05:06, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Over the course of the last few weeks, anons have been adding the adjective Greek (with a wikilink) in front of various places that the Byzatine Empire is mentioned in the article. Is there some other Byzatine Empire out there that we need to differentiate from? And, if there was, shouldn't that instead be discussed at Byzantine Empire? Jkelly 03:08, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
The reason is because in the Medieval times the empire was known as the Greek Empire (Imperium Grecaorum) or Empire of the Greeks.
Read the excerpt from the article of Byzantine Empire.
The term Byzantine Empire was invented in 1557, about a century after the fall of Constantinople by German historian Hieronymus Wolf, who introduced a system of Byzantine historiography in his work Corpus Historiae Byzantinae in order to distinguish ancient Roman from medieval Greek history without drawing attention to their ancient predecessors. Standardization of the term did not occur until the 18th century, when French authors such as Montesquieu began to popularize it. Hieronymus himself was influenced by the rift caused by the 9th century dispute between Romans (Byzantines as we render them today) and Franks, who, under Charlemagne's newly formed empire, and in concert with the Pope, attempted to legitimize their conquests by claiming inheritance of Roman rights in Italy thereby renouncing their eastern neighbours as true Romans
The Donation of Constantine, one of the most famous forged documents in history, played a crucial role in this. Henceforth, it was fixed policy in the West to refer to the emperor in Constantinople not by the usual "Imperator Romanorum" (Emperor of the Romans) which was now reserved for the Frankish monarch, but as "Imperator Graecorum" (Emperor of the Greeks) and the land as "Imperium Graecorum", "Graecia", "Terra Graecorum"
--- Also it's an article referring to Greece and Greece in those times was known as the Greek Empire and not the Byzantine. It's like calling nowadays the Medieval France The Parisian Empire because of the Capetian hub being Paris.
Although ethnic Macedonians in northern Greece make up a large minority with their own language and culture, their internationally recognized human rights and even their existence are vigorously denied by the Greek government. Free expression is restricted; several Macedonians have been prosecuted and convicted for the peaceful expression of their views. Moreover, ethnic Macedonians are discriminated against by the government's failure to permit the teaching of the Macedonian language. And ethnic Macedonians, particularly rights activists, are harassed by the government - followed and threatened by security forces - and subjected to economic and social pressures resulting from this harassment. All of these actions have led to a marked climate of fear in which a large number of ethnic Macedonians are reluctant to assert their Macedonian identity or to express their views openly. Ethnic Macedonian political refugees who fled northern Greece after the Greek Civil War of 1946-49, as well as their families who identify themselves as Macedonians, are denied permission to regain their citizenship, to resettle in, or even to visit, northern Greece. But ironically, all of these are possible for the political refugees who define themselves as Greeks. Ultimately, the government is pursuing every avenue to deny the Macedonians of Greece their ethnic identity.
- released by the Human Rights Watch
Please see the section "The Macedonians of Greece" on the HRW Publications page at http://hrw.org/doc/?t=europe_pub&c=greece —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.135.110.55 ( talk • contribs) .
I see why it is that you cannot link directly. Apparently this HRW article is available only by paying $7.00 through shop.yahoo.com. That is irritating. It also makes fair use concerns more pressing. How do other editors feel about including a single line raising the issue, with a reference to HRW's "human rights articles for sale" page, and discussing the issue further at Demographics of Greece? I am suggesting this as a compromise, and should not be understood to be arguing that it belongs in this article at all. Jkelly 03:45, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
DaveHM 15:01, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Although ethnic Macedonians in northern Greece make up a large minority with their own language and culture, their internationally recognized human rights and even their existence are vigorously denied by the Greek government. Free expression is restricted; several Macedonians have been prosecuted and convicted for the peaceful expression of their views. Moreover, ethnic Macedonians are discriminated against by the government's failure to permit the teaching of the Macedonian language. And ethnic Macedonians, particularly rights activists, are harassed by the government - followed and threatened by security forces - and subjected to economic and social pressures resulting from this harassment. All of these actions have led to a marked climate of fear in which a large number of ethnic Macedonians are reluctant to assert their Macedonian identity or to express their views openly. Ethnic Macedonian political refugees who fled northern Greece after the Greek Civil War of 1946-49, as well as their families who identify themselves as Macedonians, are denied permission to regain their citizenship, to resettle in, or even to visit, northern Greece. But ironically, all of these are possible for the political refugees who define themselves as Greeks. Ultimately, the government is pursuing every avenue to deny the Macedonians of Greece their ethnic identity.
- This is the summary of a publication by the Human Rights Watch [5]
I agree with 209.135.110.55 that Macedonians in Greece should at least be mentioned in the demographics -- Makedon45
Although there is a lot about the names of the Greek nation in this article, and while it is stated clearly that Greeks prefer to call themselves Hellenes and their country Hellas, the name of the arteicle is Greece. Could that possibly change to Hellas? I think it would be better if 'Greece' was redirected in 'Hellas' rather than the opposite! Petros The Greek 13:45, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
There is a so-called reference to a "study" in 2003 on the Greek population, which is not serious. I have left it there, but pointed out that it is not consistent with the official data in the Census and elsewhere. There are no more than 10,15m Greeks recorded in the 2001 Census, and more deaths than births of Greeks since then. The remainder of the population consists of immigrants, and any population increase is entirely due to immigration.Why is there no external link to a source which forms the basis of this paragraph?
Martin Baldwin-Edwards, Mediterranean MIgration Observatory, Athens
I deleted the paragraph added by Deucalionite because it is not backed by sources. Please find sources such as articles in reputed newspapers to substantiate your claims. Wikipedia is committed to a neutral point of view and does not allow own research. Andreas 20:50, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph (like the one that IPs continuously insert about that eleven-year-old Human Rights Watch report) does not conform to Wikipedia:Summary style. Information about minority populations in Greece should go to Demographics of Greece. The above paragraph is also doing an awful lot of speculation from its sources. Where are we supposed to see evidence that a) Greece (or Greek people) are more anti-immigrant than their neighbours and b) that the reason for this has to do with globalization and terrorism? I didn't see evidence for either in the cited articles, which I will admit to only scanning quickly. If the perceived racism/anti-immigrant position of Greek people is one of the most important things to say about the country, it is curious to me that the sources that are used to source this claim are so obscure. Jkelly 16:49, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Illegal immigrants as invaders? I am seriously troubled to see that some Greeks are trying to justify racist attitudes with this old chestnut of illegal immigration. Let's get some facts straight, before getting involved with opinions:
(1) There is absolutely NO comparison to be made between the French Maghrebi [often second and third generation migrants with French citizenship] rioting about socio-economic exclusion and the peaceful existence of recent immigrant communities in Greece. See the interview with me in Eleftherotypia for some explanation Eleftherotpia 12/11/05
(2) Although most immigrants entered Greece illegally, or semi-legally (with visas bought from corrupt Greek officials, or overstaying tourist visas] some 700.000 immigrants [plus another 200.000 "ethnic Greeks"] have been given legal status since 2002. Their continuous yo-yo movement into and out of legality is caused by the Greek state. It demands more money from immigrants than it does of Greeks (for social insurance and application fees for legal stay), does not impose sanctions upon Greek employers who refuse to pay the social insurance of immigrant workers, and even when all these conditions are satisfied has been unable to process the applications promptly. Read the discussions on some of these points at the website of the Ombudsman for Greece.
(3)All research on immigrants in Greece shows that they have been integrated into the economy and do not create unemployment in Greece. They work in rural areas [as farmhands, carers for the elderly, miscellanous semi-skilled work] and in urban areas [construction, industry, housecleaning and live-in housekeepers, carers for the elderly]. See the survey of Kassimis, for example, on rural areas. news report
(4) Owing to widespread corruption over the last 20 years or more, including the Church, all levels of the judiciary, the Greek state employees, along with the fake economic data of the last government, the Greek economy and in particular ordinary Greeks have serious financial problems. These problems have nothing to do with immigrants, but it is convenient for Greeks to pretend that it is someone else'e fault. Thus, the Greek population in recent opinion polls is extremely hostile to immigrants.
(5) The principal excuse given for Greek xenophobia is that immigrants are criminals, unlike the wonderfully law-abiding Greeks. First, although there is a clear link between violent crime and a small number of Russian and Albanian mafia, these people are not even categorised as immigrants: owing to the corruption of Greek officials, almost all high-ranking mafia have Greek passports. The semi-legal/illegal immigrants are mostly poor, politically unconnected workers who just try to make ends meet. Secondly, there are no proper data on crime in Greece. I have explained this 4 years ago to the Greek Police Federation [ http://mmo.gr/pdf/publications/publications_by_mmo_staff/Police_Gazette2001_MBE.pdf Crime and Migration (in Greek), that police data are not valid as indicators, but we need accurate information on arrests, prosecutions and convictions of people by nationality and other indicators. I also expressed this position to the Ministry of Justice. In four years, the Greek state has done precisely NOTHING to solve this information deficit. Therefore, we know very little about the causes of crime in Greece. The responsibility for this mess lies with GREEKS who run GREECE, and not with immigrants.
(6) The only terrorists in Greece are Greek, like the former Nov. 17th group. This has nothing to do with immigrants, so again this is Greek nonsense, looking for scapegoats instead of assuming responsibility for Greece. The serious structural problems in Greece are entirely the fault of Greek people, who for too long have failed to manage the country properly and have prioritised personal financial interest over Greece, political parties over Greece, and just about anything comes before Greece's national interests.
Martin Baldwin-Edwards -- 87.202.16.11 11:52, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
The poll cited above is good evidence for a high level of anti-immigrant feeling in Greece compared to other European countries. This should be incorporated into the article, but in more neutral language. -- Macrakis 22:54, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I will add some small details/corrections to the data on nationalities of immmigrants, as what is there is not quite correct. MBE-- 87.202.18.67 15:42, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
This "immigration" section needs to be removed and summerized with perhaps two sentences in demogapics. In france where there is a huge impact of immigration, there is no such section in wikipedia, same with spain, italy, germany etc. This seems to be an agendad driven addition from a couple of weeks ago to advertize a ngo (by an employee) and spins and creates an out of proportion nd out of balance section on thse general pages. I suggest that this information if carried in such depth sould be on pages generally discussing immigration and response throughout Europe.
Here is the text for the Wikipdia UK page within demographics with no sperate subsection: Recent immigrants, especially from the Commonwealth, speak many other languages, including Bengali, Cantonese, Hindi, Punjabi and Urdu. The United Kingdom has the largest number of Hindi speaking peoples outside of the Indian sub continent.'. DaveHM 11:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC) DaveHM 11:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Offensive material above I presume that DaveHM is referring to the discussions I have engaged in, and the insertion of links to scientific reports which I have produced. First, let me say that the Mediterranean Migration Observatory is not an NGO, and is part of a state university.We do not advertise: we conduct research and I am offering information to Wikipedia as a public good. Secondly, that I have inserted info from the ONLY official report to the Greek government, which is also available from the website of the Ministry of Interior research institute Hellenic Migration Policy Institute. Thirdly, that I find it offensive and ludicrous that unsourced material on the number of people in Greece is preferred to official data. I can only presume that DaveHM has his own agenda. I am reverting to the scientific material which makes this page on Greece rather better quality. -- Martin Baldwin-Edwards 12:21, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
THIS IS NOT A SERIOUS DISCUSSION
I realise now that the prevailing attacks on the standards of Wikipedia are correct.The remark abour "offensive" is my retort to being told that I am an employee of an NGO: in fact, I am the founder and director of a legitimate academic institution, which has produced independent research advice for the Greek state. One recent report in particular constitutes, along with the National Statistical Service of Greece, the only official data. Prior to that, I noticed that wikipedia was sourcing STUDENT WORKS hosted on our website, instead of serious research by professional.
If you people think it is ok to put unsourced material and undergraduate essays, and also falsely characterise the biographies of people like myself who include our full names and can be contacted, you are simply fools.
The material on immigration is included because some Greeks here insisted on it: I did not do so, but merely tried to improve it.
If this is the best you can do, better forget it. Wikipedia is a failure.-- Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:09, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
User:DaveHM: I agree that the immigration section is much too long. But MBE didn't put it in there to self-promote. MBE and I worked on that material in response to an edit war with User:Deucalionite who kept trying to put in unsourced stuff like "the majority of the Greek populace are calling for the expulsion of all illegal immigrants and the strengthening of Greece's borders" (see, e.g., this edit). I'd just as soon take it out, as would you. I don't know about MBE, but it sounds like he may not disagree. Perhaps User:Deucalionite's ardor has cooled to the degree that we can condense this section and put its best parts in an appropriate subarticle, about demographics, or better yet, politics or elections or political parties. As for FYROM, I suspect a clerical error (there's frequent edit-warring over that link), but in any case, I agree with you.-- Inonit 15:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Sorry. Forgot to sign in.
I put back the immigration section in order to get some answers. But before anyone starts yelling at me for putting back the immigration section, I just want to simply know why it was removed in the first place. If I am given very good reasons, then I will not argue about the section's removal from the article (though it would be a great injustice to those who want to know about current Greek sentiments toward illegal immigrants).
I think that there is no need to remove the section because its contents were quite neutral (hasn't the section been "wikified" enough?). Moreover, it nicely represents how Greeks feel about illegal immigration. I do not understand why a neutral section about something one cannot ignore in terms of current events should be removed. I checked the information and I did not find anything offensive in the overall section. Moreover, I did not complain or argue about it being neutrally presented in the article.
Inonit assumes that the statements I have made a while ago were unsubstantiated. However, I did substantiate them with sources a while back before getting into an argument with a particular user who just rambled on uselessly. Of course, others eventually provided different sources from what I had and those sources were chosen as evidence for the section's content about Greek sentiment toward illegal immigration.
Eventually, I agreed that the section about illegal immigration be presented in the demographics section of the article in a neutral fashion. Inonit agreed to it too. Again, if there is a really good reason for the removal of the section, then I can understand and I will leave the article alone. If not, then I am afraid that it would best for this section to remain in the article. Over and out. - Deucalionite 12/17/05 4:02 P.M. EST
Which other country articles summerize how xxxx peopels feel about immigration? Current Greek sentments toward illegal immigration mirror exactly what you find everywhere. Does the page on the United States mention the armed non governmental anti-immigrant groups which patrol the border? Seems evidently more xenophobic. The question of stating the obvious, every nation has tensions with immigration. DaveHM 21:27, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
What is Wikipedia policy? I fail to understand why a detailed and accurate paragraph in the Greece entry, is challenged by DaveHM on the grounds that other countries do not have such detail. Is this the official policy of Wikipedia? I think we need some editorial contribution here, not random opinions. As fas as the current content is concerned, it is unreferenced and contentious. Who says there are 1m immigrants in Greece? Who says they are mainly illegal? [this is not the conclusion of my report]. Who says they are "part-time" and what the f* does that mean anyway?
Given that we managed to write a section that everybody accepted as neutral and accurate, what was the point of deleting it? Again, this needs Wikipedia editorial control...-- Martin Baldwin-Edwards 01:20, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, at the risk of seeming self-interested, I should point out to Inonit that Greece is not only about Greeks. When some 10% of the population consists of non-Greeks, most of whom arrived since the 1990s, is this not relevant to the country? Incidentally, on the wikipedia page for my own country of Wales, there is a massive entry on different nationalities living there.
Besides the above point, you have failed to deal with my point that what is currently written about immigration is highly partial and misleading, as well as inaccurate. If this is not dealt with in the next few days, I will revert to what was properly written with my contribution. -- Martin Baldwin-Edwards 11:35, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I have been puzzled about the status and subdivisions of Attica. If I understand the Greek ministry of the interior correctly (my Greek is very shaky), Attica is a periphery (Περιφέρεια). It is subdivided into four prefectures (Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση): Athens, Piraeus, West Attica and East Attica. However, some prefectures (Athens, Piraeus, and outside Attica also Drama, Kavala, Xanthi, Evros and Rhodope) are called differently (Νομαρχιακό Διαμέρισμα), and grouped into Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση. Is this correct? If it is, this should be reflected in the various articles about the subdivisions of Greece. Markussep 12:58, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Can you expand this article Northern Greece instead of redirect to Greece? Thankx. Bonaparte talk 09:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Why does it say Hellada formely Hellas? Arent the names interchangeable?
I see that this page is now little more than an advertisement for tourism, with little factual information or critical analysis. Maybe we can add a small paragraph, explaining that all modern Greeks care about is MONEY. -- 87.202.25.88 17:15, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Stop doing this. The page is free for everyone to add or remove something but it shouldn't be changed every minute. And for the above guy who removed whole paragraphs: Where did u find the "nationalistic context"? Should modern Greeks ask you with what they are gonna care about? What's ur problem? Get a life.
Fuck you. The page is free for Greeks to fuck up, right. Keep up the good work. -- 87.202.25.88 18:29, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Those phrases show what kind of person you are...And you will not tell us what is "nationalistic" and what is not. Greece belongs to the Greeks.
I removed the cleanup tag. It appeared that it was placed due to issues with the ugly formatting of pictures. Since I see no problems with the formatting now, I removed it. Since the page has been contentiously edited I just wanted to explain my removal. I'm No Parking and I approved this message 13:49, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Should the fact that a formed King of Greece still claims the title be mentioned in the infobox? I think so. Pelegius, not having logged in.
I notice that some time in the last couple of months the sports section was removed. The article's length is definitely a concern, but I am unsure that cutting that section is the best way to trim it. Thoughts? Jkelly 00:13, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This time the anon was posting from an IP address previously used by User:Bitola. There seems to be an organized effort to change FYROM to RoM in Greek related articles (previously in Florina, currently in Vergina Sun) with 2-3 people simultaneously coming in and rving to RoM , deleting any references to the naming dispute, in violation of the naming policy (see Talk:Vergina Sun). Using wolf-pack tactics and anonymity, these people are trying to achive in WP what they can't achieve in places where facts matter (the UN, the EU, etc.). Sysin 11:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Greece/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Some sections need clean-up and copy-editing. It is also under-citated.-- Yannismarou 11:32, 13 October 2006 (UTC) hahaha lol |
Last edited at 16:27, 13 February 2012 (UTC). Substituted at 20:28, 3 May 2016 (UTC)