This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Gothic fiction article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1Auto-archiving period: 365 days |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The contents of the Elements of American Gothic page were merged into Gothic fiction on 13 February 2015. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Translation of the Eighteenth century Gothic novel was copied or moved into Gothic fiction with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
In order to separate this particular issue, I am opening this subsection. I am firmly against removal of examples of Schauerliteratur from this article, as most scientific studies and books on the subject refer to this either as German alternative word for "gothic fiction" ("gotische literatur" is rarely used in German language, even for English gothic novels) or, at least, for the late-18th/early-19th century German variant of gothic fiction. Even the German wiki page on "gothic fiction" uses the term "Schauerliteratur": https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schauerliteratur StjepanHR ( talk) 19:41, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
German wiki articles refering to famous gothic novels as "Schauerroman/literatur":
As we can see from the article on Melmoth the Wanderer, the German speakers simply use the term as an alternative to "gothic novel". StjepanHR ( talk) 19:47, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
First the Schauerliteratur article is invoked apparently to justify a listing of German authors in an article on Gothic Literature. Then when it appears that article does not mention any German authors, it is supposed that it just hasn't recently been updated. This is nonsense. The German authors were listed here in late 2018. The Germanwiki article was last updated in March of this year. There was ample opportunity to include them if the editors wished to. Clearly those over on Germanwiki see the Schauerliteratur article as a discussion of ENGLISH Gothic Literature. Manannan67 ( talk) 21:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Weighing in briefly as someone who has studied the Gothic -- I have always learned Schauerroman as the German term for gothic novels, which directly influenced or were even the source for the English gothic tradition in the 1790s. The various German gothics are, to my understanding, a subcategory of Gothic similar to the way Southern Gothic is a subcategory of Gothic -- the sort of topic that merits its own article and also some coverage here. I also think it's important to give enough space to the Schauerroman that we don't imply that the Gothic is a solely British phenomenon; the British themselves, in the 1790s, often considered it a foreign phenomenon entering Britain from Germany or France. All of which supports StjepanHR's arguments about the gothic. However, in terms of writing a useful article: given the very broad topic of "Gothic fiction" (which, given the inclusion of poetry, should perhaps be "Gothic literature"?) the only feasible approach to this article would seem to be having a few paragraphs on each chronological or geographical subcategory, linking outward to the full article on each. Frankly, even the current section on Walpole, Reeve, etc, could perhaps be reduced here and mostly covered in an article on British Gothic novels in the 18thC. The categories themselves should probably be sourced to an overall history of the Gothic, of which there are very many (one of the reasons I have not attempted these edits myself...). Much of the current material in the article seems odd in its emphasis, and often "narrativizes" a great deal, while also leaving out important information like the discourse of horror vs terror, the relation to supernatural superstition broadly (eg EJ Clery's Rise of Supernatural Fiction), the role of the gothic in feminist & queer studies, etc. Even though I agree with StjepanHR that Schauerroman is a synonym for Gothic novel, overall I am in favor of a simplification of the current article along the lines of what Manannan67 is doing, with details being moved outward to more specific articles. ~ L 🌸 ( talk) 03:12, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
I have reverted this section to the last version by Manannan67, double checking that no info is lost. I have removed the table, but feel free to put it back, if both of you (Mannannan and L.) think it is better that way. Also, I would like to hear both of your opinion on wheather the table in Matthew Lewis and the turn of the 19th century should be left or removed? StjepanHR ( talk) 03:43, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
You miss the point entirely, -and have ignored the discussion above, to wit: "Roman noir and Schauerroman belong to a different tradition, they are literary products of a different society, they are not continental examples of the English gothic (another Angst underpins them)...Moreover, there is a common, gloomy zeitgeist among the countries in the period, however, each society has a different literary tradition resulting in distinct meanings for the horrors." Dserravalle And "The Roman noir and the Schauerroman are characterised as 'parallel Romantic literary movements', not as Gothic!" Colin4C Given the demonstrated ambiguity regarding the term "Schauerroman", I suggest instead Schwarze Romantik. If you're so enthusiastic about continental versions, then perhaps you can come up with a Russian equivalent term. (-that section is entirely UNDUE). I am not recommending that there be no mention of the other European traditions, I'm suggesting that it be trimmed with a link to the appropriate Main. As far as your perception of a less than "friendly" tone, you have gutted an entire article with an overbroad reversion only to preserve your own largely irrelevant entries. Hello? Manannan67 ( talk) 21:30, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
Uf, have You even read the article? https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schauerliteratur#Vertreter_in_Deutschland StjepanHR ( talk) 23:32, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
And, surprise, guess how the German-speaking scholars refer to some of the French authors listed in List of gothic fiction works? Hint: https://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/volltextserver/17053/ StjepanHR ( talk) 23:41, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
I tied up the contemporary gothic subsection some months back, but the rest of this article is dearly in need of help.
Before I begin rewriting it wholesale, I would like feedback on the points I have raised above. JTdale Talk~ 09:19, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
I have reorganised the page structure as the very first step in trying to rein this article in. However, it remains an unwieldy disaster. There are simply too many topics being covered simultaneously, and without much organisation, while also approaching the topic in potentially too academic a manner for Wikipedia.
Continuing issues of note
As Gothic ages, it has moved beyond its origins in architecture and the printed page to become fully transmedial, its tropes and motifs recurring in novels, films, television, fine art, comics, fashion, computer games, and the dark web of the internet itself. Gothic plots often revolve around ideas of transgression, the breaching of boundaries of life and death, good taste and bad, knowledge and belief...
— Luckhurst, Roger
Architecture in English Fiction, by Warren Hunting Smith (1934) contains--especially in chapters 2 and 3--an important early contribution to understanding this genre. 173.17.176.73 ( talk) 15:15, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Gothic fiction article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1Auto-archiving period: 365 days |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The contents of the Elements of American Gothic page were merged into Gothic fiction on 13 February 2015. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Translation of the Eighteenth century Gothic novel was copied or moved into Gothic fiction with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
In order to separate this particular issue, I am opening this subsection. I am firmly against removal of examples of Schauerliteratur from this article, as most scientific studies and books on the subject refer to this either as German alternative word for "gothic fiction" ("gotische literatur" is rarely used in German language, even for English gothic novels) or, at least, for the late-18th/early-19th century German variant of gothic fiction. Even the German wiki page on "gothic fiction" uses the term "Schauerliteratur": https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schauerliteratur StjepanHR ( talk) 19:41, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
German wiki articles refering to famous gothic novels as "Schauerroman/literatur":
As we can see from the article on Melmoth the Wanderer, the German speakers simply use the term as an alternative to "gothic novel". StjepanHR ( talk) 19:47, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
First the Schauerliteratur article is invoked apparently to justify a listing of German authors in an article on Gothic Literature. Then when it appears that article does not mention any German authors, it is supposed that it just hasn't recently been updated. This is nonsense. The German authors were listed here in late 2018. The Germanwiki article was last updated in March of this year. There was ample opportunity to include them if the editors wished to. Clearly those over on Germanwiki see the Schauerliteratur article as a discussion of ENGLISH Gothic Literature. Manannan67 ( talk) 21:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Weighing in briefly as someone who has studied the Gothic -- I have always learned Schauerroman as the German term for gothic novels, which directly influenced or were even the source for the English gothic tradition in the 1790s. The various German gothics are, to my understanding, a subcategory of Gothic similar to the way Southern Gothic is a subcategory of Gothic -- the sort of topic that merits its own article and also some coverage here. I also think it's important to give enough space to the Schauerroman that we don't imply that the Gothic is a solely British phenomenon; the British themselves, in the 1790s, often considered it a foreign phenomenon entering Britain from Germany or France. All of which supports StjepanHR's arguments about the gothic. However, in terms of writing a useful article: given the very broad topic of "Gothic fiction" (which, given the inclusion of poetry, should perhaps be "Gothic literature"?) the only feasible approach to this article would seem to be having a few paragraphs on each chronological or geographical subcategory, linking outward to the full article on each. Frankly, even the current section on Walpole, Reeve, etc, could perhaps be reduced here and mostly covered in an article on British Gothic novels in the 18thC. The categories themselves should probably be sourced to an overall history of the Gothic, of which there are very many (one of the reasons I have not attempted these edits myself...). Much of the current material in the article seems odd in its emphasis, and often "narrativizes" a great deal, while also leaving out important information like the discourse of horror vs terror, the relation to supernatural superstition broadly (eg EJ Clery's Rise of Supernatural Fiction), the role of the gothic in feminist & queer studies, etc. Even though I agree with StjepanHR that Schauerroman is a synonym for Gothic novel, overall I am in favor of a simplification of the current article along the lines of what Manannan67 is doing, with details being moved outward to more specific articles. ~ L 🌸 ( talk) 03:12, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
I have reverted this section to the last version by Manannan67, double checking that no info is lost. I have removed the table, but feel free to put it back, if both of you (Mannannan and L.) think it is better that way. Also, I would like to hear both of your opinion on wheather the table in Matthew Lewis and the turn of the 19th century should be left or removed? StjepanHR ( talk) 03:43, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
You miss the point entirely, -and have ignored the discussion above, to wit: "Roman noir and Schauerroman belong to a different tradition, they are literary products of a different society, they are not continental examples of the English gothic (another Angst underpins them)...Moreover, there is a common, gloomy zeitgeist among the countries in the period, however, each society has a different literary tradition resulting in distinct meanings for the horrors." Dserravalle And "The Roman noir and the Schauerroman are characterised as 'parallel Romantic literary movements', not as Gothic!" Colin4C Given the demonstrated ambiguity regarding the term "Schauerroman", I suggest instead Schwarze Romantik. If you're so enthusiastic about continental versions, then perhaps you can come up with a Russian equivalent term. (-that section is entirely UNDUE). I am not recommending that there be no mention of the other European traditions, I'm suggesting that it be trimmed with a link to the appropriate Main. As far as your perception of a less than "friendly" tone, you have gutted an entire article with an overbroad reversion only to preserve your own largely irrelevant entries. Hello? Manannan67 ( talk) 21:30, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
Uf, have You even read the article? https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schauerliteratur#Vertreter_in_Deutschland StjepanHR ( talk) 23:32, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
And, surprise, guess how the German-speaking scholars refer to some of the French authors listed in List of gothic fiction works? Hint: https://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/volltextserver/17053/ StjepanHR ( talk) 23:41, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
I tied up the contemporary gothic subsection some months back, but the rest of this article is dearly in need of help.
Before I begin rewriting it wholesale, I would like feedback on the points I have raised above. JTdale Talk~ 09:19, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
I have reorganised the page structure as the very first step in trying to rein this article in. However, it remains an unwieldy disaster. There are simply too many topics being covered simultaneously, and without much organisation, while also approaching the topic in potentially too academic a manner for Wikipedia.
Continuing issues of note
As Gothic ages, it has moved beyond its origins in architecture and the printed page to become fully transmedial, its tropes and motifs recurring in novels, films, television, fine art, comics, fashion, computer games, and the dark web of the internet itself. Gothic plots often revolve around ideas of transgression, the breaching of boundaries of life and death, good taste and bad, knowledge and belief...
— Luckhurst, Roger
Architecture in English Fiction, by Warren Hunting Smith (1934) contains--especially in chapters 2 and 3--an important early contribution to understanding this genre. 173.17.176.73 ( talk) 15:15, 15 September 2022 (UTC)