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Modern Tatars, also known as Kazan Tatars of Tatarstan are not descendants of medieval Tatars, they are descendants of Volga Bulgaria, so they are Bulgars. They even never were nomads, they always were sedentary and they look european. The main population and army of the Golden Horde were nomads, whose descendants are modern Kazakhs, Nogais, Bashkirs, Crimean Tatars (not Kazan Tatars) and Karakalpaks. Those nomads of the Golden Horde were all named "Tatars" by Europeans and "Uzbeks" by other Asians. The only reason why modern world mistakenly thinks that Bulgars are descendants of medieval nomads is that Bulgars were the first turkic-speaking nation that was colonized by Russians and as sedentary nation they were more numerous and adopted European culture and education faster, then Bulgar intellectuals formed a new identity and wrote a new history for their people, just using the fact that they speak turkic language and are muslims. We should get the world to know who are the real descendants and heirs of the Golden Horde, the real nomads, Kazakhs, Nogais, Bashkirs, Crimean Tatars (not Kazan Tatars) and Karakalpaks. Bekzatakhmetov ( talk) 12:48, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
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change chancery to chancellery 46.97.177.203 ( talk) 09:04, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
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ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk) 13:04, 19 December 2021 (UTC)A good portion of this article is based solely on a work from 1953, which reflects the prejudices and biases of the time. Surely there’s newer sources? Volunteer Marek 04:48, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
You're right, Vernadsky is often no longer a reliable source on the history of Eastern Europe. I've been reading some Janet Martin, Charles J. Halperin and Serhii Plokhy, amongst others, who seem much more balanced and up to date. At the moment I'm trying to find more information about the taxation system/practices of the Golden Horde towards the Rus' principalities. Both Ukrainian and Russian national(ist) interpretations at times seem to want to have it both ways: the Mongol-Tatar "yoke" didn't really impact this or that principality (such as Vladimir-Suzdal, Muscovy, but also Galicia-Volhynia), but simultaneously said prince was given the privilege to collecting the Golden Horde's taxes "in all of Rus', therefore" they had the best claim to the title of "Grand Prince of all (Kyivan) Rus'." I don't think they can have their cake and eat it, too. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 08:05, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 14:22, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
@ user:Mellk, which source did I ignore? What did I add that needs a source? [1] (What is a blind change?) — Michael Z. 01:12, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
References
@ User:Qiushufang, you reverted my edit with “ rv deletion of cited content ,” [2] but did you even look at my original edit and read my edit summary?? [3] The exact same passage is repeated twice in the article, and it has a non-POV quote poorly translated from an old source (there was no “Russian custom” nor “Russia” in Nevsky’s time). I left one version plus improved it from the exact same source. — Michael Z. 01:27, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
Golden Horde was formed in 1240's or 1259 by Batu Khan, in todays Europe to Kazakhstan. While the Golden family was from Mongolia was from 1180's to 1210. Gemmaso ( talk) 09:12, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
I removed the genetic study because there is no correlation. The word Golden in Golden Horde is already explained, and it has nothing to do with Golden family from Mongolia. The appellation "Golden" is said to have been inspired by the golden color of the tents the Mongols lived in during wartime, or an actual golden tent used by Batu Khan or by Uzbek Khan,[11] or to have been bestowed by the Slavic tributaries to describe the great wealth of the khan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gemmaso ( talk • contribs) 14:50, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
It it not even sure if Batu Khan is paternally related to Genghis Khan. Regardless, it makes no sense for the user:Hunan201p to make a fake correlation when Golden family and Golden Horde mean two different things. Also geographically, Golden Horde bodies are located is in Kazakhstan to Europe while bodies of Golden family is located from Mongolia. Gemmaso ( talk) 15:52, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
The 2016 genetic study is suggesting that it was Mongol soldiers and their slave women. Given that all the Mongols even in the early 1200's were already over 85% (many even 92-100%) East Eurasian, you could even say they looked just like any other East Eurasian population who carried East Eurasian haplogroups...." The authors observed a special link between haplogroup R1b-M343 and the populations residing in the former territory of the Golden Horde, noting a high frequency of R1b-M343 among populations such as the Hazara, as well as Bashkirs and Eastern Russian Tatars.[160][161] "
The author is basically claiming ancient population of Iran, Tatarstan did not have haplogroup R1b before spread of Mongol soldier. Apparently East Asian appearance carriers of R1b intermixing with native women of Iran and Tarstanstan, or Baskhir women is the reason why they have R1b ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gemmaso ( talk • contribs) 19:59, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
I change my mind, it does make mention of Golden Horde but indirectly and is a hypothesis. I still think it shouldn't be in Golden Horde.
However, somethings that were left out (deliberately or not)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5023095/
" All physical anthropological parameters indicate that the skulls of the Tavan Tolgoi graves were all anthropologically Mongoloid
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5023095/
"Additionally, Tavan Tolgoi bodies may have been the product of marriages between the lineage of Genghis Khan's Borjigin clan and the lineage of either the Ongud or Hongirad clans, indicating that these individuals were members of Genghis Khan's immediate family or his close relatives."
These should be included. Gemmaso ( talk) 16:40, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Here is the most important source for the R1b Golden family.
it seems most likely that the Tavan Tolgoi bodies are members of Genghis Khan’s Golden family, including the lineage of bekis, Genghis Khan’s female lineage, and their female successors who controlled Eastern Mongolia in the early Mongolian era 'instead of guregens of the Ongud clan, or' the lineage of khans, Genghis Khan’s male lineage, who married females of the Hongirad clan
Gemmaso ( talk) 22:25, 26 February 2023 (UTC) @ Hunan201p: This really sounds silly. I still can't get the connection. Beshogur ( talk) 15:42, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
Also Ilkhanate, Chagatai Khanate.
First your dates listing are problematic. Did those states suddenly become "functionally independent sovereign state" in 1260? You have to provide, where exactly the source state that Golden Horde was a "functionally independent sovereign state" and suddenly turned into "Great Horde"? I don't even know what this means. Great Horde is the period of Golden Horde, losing almost all areas except the steppes around Don and Volga. Also it was discussed on Talk:Great Horde that 1459 isn't the date of the establishment of the Great Horde, but rather 15th century as whole, without a precise date.
Also what about the gaps? It should be 1242–1259 and 1259–1458 for example, as well as using small text on the infobox. This is disruptive editing and WP:OR. Beshogur ( talk) 17:15, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
I understand your words. But the division of the Mongol Empire it is written after 1259 the western part of Khanate does not recognise Kublai khan as their king Pervezmusk. ( talk) 13:53, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
who is fedor? Gediminas did not have such a brother. 88.223.213.190 ( talk) 20:57, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Golden Horde article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 365 days |
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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Modern Tatars, also known as Kazan Tatars of Tatarstan are not descendants of medieval Tatars, they are descendants of Volga Bulgaria, so they are Bulgars. They even never were nomads, they always were sedentary and they look european. The main population and army of the Golden Horde were nomads, whose descendants are modern Kazakhs, Nogais, Bashkirs, Crimean Tatars (not Kazan Tatars) and Karakalpaks. Those nomads of the Golden Horde were all named "Tatars" by Europeans and "Uzbeks" by other Asians. The only reason why modern world mistakenly thinks that Bulgars are descendants of medieval nomads is that Bulgars were the first turkic-speaking nation that was colonized by Russians and as sedentary nation they were more numerous and adopted European culture and education faster, then Bulgar intellectuals formed a new identity and wrote a new history for their people, just using the fact that they speak turkic language and are muslims. We should get the world to know who are the real descendants and heirs of the Golden Horde, the real nomads, Kazakhs, Nogais, Bashkirs, Crimean Tatars (not Kazan Tatars) and Karakalpaks. Bekzatakhmetov ( talk) 12:48, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
change chancery to chancellery 46.97.177.203 ( talk) 09:04, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template.
ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk) 13:04, 19 December 2021 (UTC)A good portion of this article is based solely on a work from 1953, which reflects the prejudices and biases of the time. Surely there’s newer sources? Volunteer Marek 04:48, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
You're right, Vernadsky is often no longer a reliable source on the history of Eastern Europe. I've been reading some Janet Martin, Charles J. Halperin and Serhii Plokhy, amongst others, who seem much more balanced and up to date. At the moment I'm trying to find more information about the taxation system/practices of the Golden Horde towards the Rus' principalities. Both Ukrainian and Russian national(ist) interpretations at times seem to want to have it both ways: the Mongol-Tatar "yoke" didn't really impact this or that principality (such as Vladimir-Suzdal, Muscovy, but also Galicia-Volhynia), but simultaneously said prince was given the privilege to collecting the Golden Horde's taxes "in all of Rus', therefore" they had the best claim to the title of "Grand Prince of all (Kyivan) Rus'." I don't think they can have their cake and eat it, too. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 08:05, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 14:22, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
@ user:Mellk, which source did I ignore? What did I add that needs a source? [1] (What is a blind change?) — Michael Z. 01:12, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
References
@ User:Qiushufang, you reverted my edit with “ rv deletion of cited content ,” [2] but did you even look at my original edit and read my edit summary?? [3] The exact same passage is repeated twice in the article, and it has a non-POV quote poorly translated from an old source (there was no “Russian custom” nor “Russia” in Nevsky’s time). I left one version plus improved it from the exact same source. — Michael Z. 01:27, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
Golden Horde was formed in 1240's or 1259 by Batu Khan, in todays Europe to Kazakhstan. While the Golden family was from Mongolia was from 1180's to 1210. Gemmaso ( talk) 09:12, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
I removed the genetic study because there is no correlation. The word Golden in Golden Horde is already explained, and it has nothing to do with Golden family from Mongolia. The appellation "Golden" is said to have been inspired by the golden color of the tents the Mongols lived in during wartime, or an actual golden tent used by Batu Khan or by Uzbek Khan,[11] or to have been bestowed by the Slavic tributaries to describe the great wealth of the khan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gemmaso ( talk • contribs) 14:50, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
It it not even sure if Batu Khan is paternally related to Genghis Khan. Regardless, it makes no sense for the user:Hunan201p to make a fake correlation when Golden family and Golden Horde mean two different things. Also geographically, Golden Horde bodies are located is in Kazakhstan to Europe while bodies of Golden family is located from Mongolia. Gemmaso ( talk) 15:52, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
The 2016 genetic study is suggesting that it was Mongol soldiers and their slave women. Given that all the Mongols even in the early 1200's were already over 85% (many even 92-100%) East Eurasian, you could even say they looked just like any other East Eurasian population who carried East Eurasian haplogroups...." The authors observed a special link between haplogroup R1b-M343 and the populations residing in the former territory of the Golden Horde, noting a high frequency of R1b-M343 among populations such as the Hazara, as well as Bashkirs and Eastern Russian Tatars.[160][161] "
The author is basically claiming ancient population of Iran, Tatarstan did not have haplogroup R1b before spread of Mongol soldier. Apparently East Asian appearance carriers of R1b intermixing with native women of Iran and Tarstanstan, or Baskhir women is the reason why they have R1b ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gemmaso ( talk • contribs) 19:59, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
I change my mind, it does make mention of Golden Horde but indirectly and is a hypothesis. I still think it shouldn't be in Golden Horde.
However, somethings that were left out (deliberately or not)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5023095/
" All physical anthropological parameters indicate that the skulls of the Tavan Tolgoi graves were all anthropologically Mongoloid
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5023095/
"Additionally, Tavan Tolgoi bodies may have been the product of marriages between the lineage of Genghis Khan's Borjigin clan and the lineage of either the Ongud or Hongirad clans, indicating that these individuals were members of Genghis Khan's immediate family or his close relatives."
These should be included. Gemmaso ( talk) 16:40, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Here is the most important source for the R1b Golden family.
it seems most likely that the Tavan Tolgoi bodies are members of Genghis Khan’s Golden family, including the lineage of bekis, Genghis Khan’s female lineage, and their female successors who controlled Eastern Mongolia in the early Mongolian era 'instead of guregens of the Ongud clan, or' the lineage of khans, Genghis Khan’s male lineage, who married females of the Hongirad clan
Gemmaso ( talk) 22:25, 26 February 2023 (UTC) @ Hunan201p: This really sounds silly. I still can't get the connection. Beshogur ( talk) 15:42, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
Also Ilkhanate, Chagatai Khanate.
First your dates listing are problematic. Did those states suddenly become "functionally independent sovereign state" in 1260? You have to provide, where exactly the source state that Golden Horde was a "functionally independent sovereign state" and suddenly turned into "Great Horde"? I don't even know what this means. Great Horde is the period of Golden Horde, losing almost all areas except the steppes around Don and Volga. Also it was discussed on Talk:Great Horde that 1459 isn't the date of the establishment of the Great Horde, but rather 15th century as whole, without a precise date.
Also what about the gaps? It should be 1242–1259 and 1259–1458 for example, as well as using small text on the infobox. This is disruptive editing and WP:OR. Beshogur ( talk) 17:15, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
I understand your words. But the division of the Mongol Empire it is written after 1259 the western part of Khanate does not recognise Kublai khan as their king Pervezmusk. ( talk) 13:53, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
who is fedor? Gediminas did not have such a brother. 88.223.213.190 ( talk) 20:57, 18 February 2024 (UTC)