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Outside of the pages of Wikipedia, there's zero dispute about where this story first appeared. Note that the Locus Fiction Index, which is as about as definitive as things get for the genre, lists "Gilgamesh in the Outback" as reprinted from IASFM, while all the other stories in the volume are identified as originals [1] [2]. And, since you're now claiming that a second one of AgBerg's Gilgamesh novellas was original to the anthologies, perhaps you'll tell us which one. "Gilgamesh in Uruk", which appeared in IASFM six months before the anthology appeared [3]? Or "The Fascination of the Abomination", which ran in IASFM merely three months earlier [4]? This link might also be of value to you [5]. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz ( talk) 02:15, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Locus isn't consistent. To quote:
To the Land of the Living, a mosaic adapted from two novellas that originally appeared in the Heroes in Hell anthology series, is a much lighter affair, but thoroughly enjoyable.
Locus also is not a reliable source. The only reliable source is the Permissions Page or Copyright Information Page which appears at the front of every book published. I have a copy of Rebels in Hell here though any book would do, and this is exactly what is on the Permissions page:
REBELS IN HELL
This is a work of fiction. All of the characters and events in this book are fictional, and any resemblance to real people or events is purely coincidental.
Copyright © 1986 by Janet Morris
All rights reserved, including the right to reproduce this book or portions thereof in any form.
A Baen Books Original
In Canada distributed by PaperJacks Ltd.,
330 Steelcase Road, Markham, Ontario
First Printing, July 1986
ISBN: 0-671-65577-9
Cover art by David Mattingly
Printed in Canada
Distributed by
SIMON & SCHUSTER
TRADE PUBLISHING GROUP
1230 Avenue of the Americas
New York, N. Y. 10020
Assuming I didn't make any typos, that is accurate. Do you see anything in the Permissions/Copyright page about Gilgamesh in the Outback being a reprint in Rebels in Hell? No you don't, because it wasn't. Now go get something like the "Science Fiction Hall of Fame" off your book shelf, and look at the Permissions/Copyright page. The entire thing says "Originally printed" for every single story. This is a legal necessity.
If the Silverberg and Benford stories were reprints the various Hell volumes would have had to indicate this on the Permissions/Copyright page. Since it wasn't indicated on the Permissions/Copyright page they were not reprints. Basic first grade logic.
Permissions/Copyright pages exist for legal reasons. They lay out who or what is responsible for what appears in a book. This allows anyone who has a complaint to know who to contact, and if necessary who to sue. Most books are published without any issues, and then you come to the odd one like John David California's 60 Years Later: Coming Through the Rye.
At this point I'm going to get a bit nasty. Sorry, but you've asked for it. You seem to be trying to educate Janet Morris about fine points of law on reprints, and what this requires in the way of permissions. Janet Morris has been an editor for a damned long time. Sit back and think. She's forgotten more about this than you will ever know.
Exactly how mad do you wish to make her? From her comment on the Heroes in Hell discussion page I suspect she is damned near ready to call in the lawyers.
Oh, and the Heroes in Hell discussion page says that this article was merged into the Heroes in Hell article. By bringing it back from the dead you may cause Wikipedia's system some problems. UrbanTerrorist ( talk) 19:03, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Both publications of "Gilgamesh in the Outback" have a July 1987 publishing date. To call a work as "originally published," one would need citations of such things as printing and distribution records, appearance dates at newsstands and bookstores, all of which would be difficult. I would suggest avoiding this unnecessary controversy by simply stating the facts: "Gilgamesh in the Outback was published in the July 1987 Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine and the shared universe anthology Rebels in Hell, published by Baen Books." I have listed the works alphabetically by title. To claim that the work was "originally" published in Asimov's implies that Silverberg wrote it for Asimov's first and then Janet Morris, the Rebels in Hell editor, reprinted it in her anthology. This allegation requires a citation. To support a reprint in Rebels in Hell one would have to look at Silverberg's Rebels in Hell contracts and his Asimov's contracts - again, another citation. But why go to this unnecessary work when for WP purposes a statement of the actual publishing history is sufficient? To belabor the "originality" claim raises issues of intellectual property and even libel, since they raise questions of the editors' skills. This article should state the facts simply and avoid potential legal claims. Dokzap ( talk) 05:51, 17 August 2011 (UTC)Dokzap
Correction: Both publications are for July 1986. The suggested edit would be: "Gilgamesh in the Outback was published in the July 1986 Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine and the shared universe anthology Rebels in Hell, published in July 1986 by Baen Books." Dokzap ( talk) 04:35, 18 August 2011 (UTC)Dokzap
"This fits (more or less) into the shared universe of Hell lorded over by C.J. Cherryh and Janet Morris, though it's not mentioned in this book (probably due to somebody's contracts with somebody else). It continues the adventures of the mythical king into a strange version of the afterworld. I call it strange because it does not fit completely with any religious vision of an afterlife. In the other Hell books, there is a basic Christian slant, with demons presiding over the dead and occasional references to a satanic being in charge, but Hell is not just for sinners. Everyone is there, from Hitler to the saints, from the beginning of the human race to sometime in the 21st century. Silverberg takes a more general view, and the Christian elements of Cherryh and Morris's scenario are not present, and in fact this book stands a little outside the general tone of the rest of the series. "One of the basic ideas of the Hell books is that once a person is there, it's forever. If you get killed you come back in a new body after a short time. Another basic idea is that there is no way out. Gilgamesh makes it his quest to find a way out of Hell, a way back to Earth. The irony is that in life, his quest was to make it to the land of the dead to be with his friend Enkidu, and now that he's there, he wants to leave, though he still seeks Enkidu. "The book started as the novella Gilgamesh in the Outback in Rebels in Hell and in that form was nominated for Nebula Award for best novella, 1987. Chapters 1-5 are that novella. Chapters 7-11 were published as The Fascination of the Abomination in Angels in Hell. The title character of Lord of Darkness features prominently in this book as well. I've read a number of the other books in the Hell series, and while they're sometimes enjoyable, I'm not sure I can recommend them. Cherryh's stories are particularly grating to me (which is unusual as she is one of my favorite writers), with their idea that only the famous people of history are important and ordinary people don't even rate bodies in Hell (this is not the way it works in Silverberg's Hell stories, or even many of the other writers in this shared universe). (Robert Silverberg, http://www.majipoor.com/work.php?id=1190 Dokzap ( talk) 02:13, 21 August 2011 (UTC)Dokzap
Hullaballoo Wolfowitz and any other interested editors - You failed to respond to the following post by Dokzap which would solve this dispute, allow corresponding edits to be made on all affected pages and everyone could move on:
Thus, there would be no perceived insult to either Mr. Silverberg or Ms. Morris and the Heroes in Hell shared word/universe, and the information would be completely accurate, since the story WAS published in both with the same publication date of July 1, 1986. Trying to prove this many years later which one was first seen by a human eye (outside of the involved publishing/distributing entities) is not possible due to issues of which you have been apprised before: advance copies for reviewers, early shipped copies to sellers, actual date of receipt by subscribers, etc.; to continue to insist you can determine which came first is sophistry. Wikipedia may not be about the "truth" but I think everyone believes it is at the very least factual and, hopefully, accurate. Hulcys930 ( talk) 03:10, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
If it pleases Hullaballoo Wolfowitz to note the earlier sell-by date, and to note that one citation says "first published," with a note to that citation, I do not object to that additional bibliographic citation. My suggestion was to make a simple, precise, non controversial citation. Note that the issue of "first published" or "originally published" is of limited utility, though, since Mr. Silverberg's quasi-official Web page, and his approved commentator, Jon Davis, has established the provenance of "Gilgamesh in the Outback" as having been written as part of the Heroes in Hell/Rebels in Hell series. Saying the work was "first published" in Asimov's does not take away from its creation as part of the Heroes in Hell/Rebels in Hell series -- unless one wants to deny the Majipoor.com citation. Dokzap ( talk) 21:05, 23 August 2011 (UTC)Dokzap
"The following information was edited into the Gilgamesh In The Outback page, along with the message to Mr. Wolfowitz, by someone not familiar with Wikipedia. However, in an abundance of caution that the information will be removed from the page at any moment, I apologize for the length but due to the subject matter I have no other choice and am copying the information here for the edification of the other editors: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hulcys930 ( talk • contribs) 07:14, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
DELIBERATELY PRESENTING SELECTIVE AND MISLEADING INFORMATION AKA REWRITING HISTORY
The following information was edited into the Gilgamesh In The Outback page, along with the message to Mr. Wolfowitz, by someone not familiar with Wikipedia. However, in an abundance of caution that the information will be removed from the page at any moment, I apologize for the length but due to the subject matter I have no other choice and am copying the information here for the edification of the other editors:
ALL UN-BIASED EDITORS, PLEASE EXAMINE THE CITATIONS OF BOTH VERSIONS OF THE "GILGAMESH IN THE OUTBACK" PAGE AND DECIDE WHAT SHOULD BE DONE. THANK YOU. Hulcys930 ( talk) 04:07, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Re. citing Brian Thomsen's "Novel Ideas" as a source for "first published in July 1986 Asimov's"; Hulaballoo Wolfowitz has found a Google Books acknowledgements page from Brian Thomsen in "Novel Ideas" and cites it as evidence of "Gilgamesh in the Outback" as being first published in the July 1986 Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine. I suggest that the late Brian Thomsen might have had a conflict of interest or bias in wanting to note the "first published" listing for Asimov's. The American edition of "To the Land of the Living" was a Warner Books/Popular Library Questar book, and at the time (1990) Brian Thomsen was the Questar editor -- i.e., he edited "To The Land of the Living." Because of Thomsen's involvement with Silverberg in the editing of "To the Land of the Living," that Thomsen chose to acknowledge the Asimov's publication of "Gilgamesh in the Outback" and not the "Rebels in Hell" publication (or both) should not be taken as a definite and reliable citation. That citation should be qualified as possibly biased. Dokzap ( talk) 19:47, 28 August 2011 (UTC)Dokzap
References
First:
Gilgamesh in the Outback is a science fiction novella by Robert Silverberg, and part of Janet Morris's shared-universe series Heroes in Hell. It won the Hugo Award for Best Novella in 1987 and was also nominated for the Nebula Award for Best Novella in 1986.[1][2] Originally published in Asimov's Science Fiction[3][4], it was then printed in Rebels in Hell[5] before being incorporated into Silverberg's novel To the Land of the Living.
Second:
Robert Silverberg wrote that he was "drawn into" writing a story for for the "Heroes in Hell" project. While he remembered that the central concept of the series was "never clearly explained" to him, he noted the similarity of "Heroes in Hell" to Philip Jose Farmer's Riverworld works, and decided "to run my own variant on what Farmer had done a couple of decades earlier." After writing "Gilgamesh in the Outback," he decided that, since the story "was all so much fun," to write two sequels, "The Fascination of the Abomination" and "Gilgamesh in Uruk." In writing those stories, as Silverberg recalled, he "never read many of the other 'Heroes in Hell' stories", and had "no idea" of how consistent his work was with that of his "putative collaborators"; instead, he had "gone his own way . . . with only the most tangential links to what others had invented."[6]
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.101.127.139 ( talk • contribs) 11:59, 26 August 2011
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
2nd paragraph, first line, remove the repeated word "for" -- 98.218.161.68 ( talk) 00:35, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
There is a discussion on the BLP noticeboard about this article. The article as it is looks fine to me. Is there still a dispute? Jarhed ( talk) 18:13, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
Originally published in Asimov's Science Fiction, it was then printed in Rebels in Hell before being incorporated into Silverberg's novel To the Land of the Living. [9]
Originally published in Asimov's Science Fiction [1] [2], it was then printed in Rebels in Hell [3] before being incorporated into Silverberg's novel To the Land of the Living. [10]
If anybody cares what I think, first, I see no BLP issues in any of this and I wish you would not use that forum unless you can clearly spell out the BLP issue. Second, there are some editors on this article whose emotions are out of control. When I feel this way, I find that staying away from WP for at least a few days helps. Third, the accusations of bad faith that are flying around are against WP guidelines. If you editors continue this behavior, I predict that at least one of you will get himself or herself blocked. Finally, if you are having problems with a contentious editor, I recommend that you go to the administrator's noticeboard, read the instructions there, and follow them. I actually care about getting the Silverberg attribution right, and I want you editors to straighten it out. Have a great day! Jarhed ( talk) 21:04, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi guys, I am responding to the additional info that was left on the BLP noticeboard. I do not care to work on this article at all except for BLP issues, and at present I don't see any. Please refrain from using the BLP noticeboard for a content dispute. Everything that I said in the paragraph above starting with "If anybody cares" still stands. Cheers! Jarhed ( talk) 04:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
References
Okay, since there's obviously still a dispute about this, let's sit down and talk it out. From before I've seen zero dispute that this story was published in both Asimov's and Rebels in Hell in 1986. Why, then, can't we just agree to disagree about original publication, first serial rights, and all that, and simply say it was published in both in 1986. We'll all be equally (un)happy about the result, it'll be strictly factual and absolutely indisputable.
To be explicit, why don't we change the first paragraph of the lead as follows? (removals struck through, additions in green)
Gilgamesh in the Outback is a science fiction novella by Robert Silverberg, and part of Janet Morris's shared-universe series Heroes in Hell. It won the Hugo Award for Best Novella in 1987 and was also nominated for the Nebula Award for Best Novella in 1986. [1] [2]
OriginallyIt was published in Asimov's Science Fiction,[3] [4]it was then printedand in Rebels in Hell in 1986 [5] before being incorporated into Silverberg's novel To the Land of the Living.
Thoughts? lifebaka ++ 00:46, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
A strict chronological publishing history would be wonderful! The body of the article would also need to be reverted to its state prior to H.Wolfowitz' imaginative rewrite when he disagreed with the consensus reached in the Dispute Resolution, changing the wording that had existed basically unchanged since 2008. Since early August, a virtually identical NPOV publishing history has been proposed and agreed to by all editors except H.Wolfowitz. Based on the following edit comment from H.Wolfowitz:
I will be pleased but surprised if you can obtain H.Wolfowitz' agreement. Hulcys930 ( talk) 05:16, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
The above is a very convoluted way of saying "If Wikipedia has been using terminology that is incorrect to keep from confusing their readers, it must be followed religiously, regardless of the errors, even when it portrays situations incorrectly." The following definitions are found in numerous locations on the internet. They are not difficult to understand and in no way impact any supposed "PR" issue being constantly asserted by HW. I seriously doubt that the term "respect the conventional expectations of readers for a given topic" was intended to be conflated with: one must use this terminology even if the wording of the conventional expectations of readers gives the reader an absolutely inaccurate understanding. If the terms used in Wikipedia for very simple situations are incorrect, they should be changed:
Finding Go! Matching Questions and Resources in Getting Published (Winterwolf, 2004)[ [13]]
"First Serial Rights: This allows work to be excerpted in magazines or other periodicals.
Reprint: A book or other publication in its second or subsequent printing. If extensive changes have been made, it’s called, instead, an edition."
Since the exact terms of art under discussion are listed in many places on the internet (see above) and in other venues substantiating the fact that the terms in question are well-known and used constantly in contracts in the publishing industry, the assertion that said terms are "an idiosyncratic, self-serving usage devised by a small group of COI editors undocumented and otherwise unsupported by any independent sources" is obviously seriously inaccurate. I was not aware of the assertion by H.Wolfowitz that there were no "independent sources" listed to verify the definitions used throughout the publishing industry. There are plenty more if anyone requires them.
Aside from the fact that no one is asking that the words "first serial" or "originally published" be included in the publishing history of this story any longer, insisting that it is acceptable to provide incorrect/inaccurate information based on the excuse that the Wikipedia terminology must be strictly adhered to even when by doing so, the reader is left with a wholly different view of history is, once again, sophistry. When the "generally accepted" definition varies from a definition of a specific term of art in a specific industry in such a way as to completely controvert the actual meaning of the terms, it would be advisable to use the correct terms and, if the general consensus feels it is necessary, a short, simple in-place attribution should clear up any confusion that might occur. Most people who would be reading about the publishing history of any publication would probably be able to figure out the terms without much trouble if given a short, accurate definition. Hulcys930 ( talk) 19:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
The article starts with the words 'Gilgamesh in the Outback is a science fiction novella'. I believe that the story is around ten thousand words, which would make it a short story according to the SFWA definitions. There is also the issue of Genre. Technically Gilgamesh in the Outback is a Bangsian Fantasy. A careful read of it will show that it has none of the trappings usually associated with Science Fiction stories. Since the awards it won, and was nominated for are awards that are associated with SFWA, and since it is self evidently a Bangsian Fantasy, I would suggest changing the wording to 'Gilgamesh in the Outback is a Bangsian Fantasy short story'. Sorry if this sounds like minor quibbling, but I like getting the details right. Aspergers Syndrome you know. UrbanTerrorist ( talk) 18:39, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
I know it wasn't particularly well-received, but is there a link anywhere for "The Land of the Living" as either a British or American novel? Maybe there is something on a UK novel site. Hulcys930 ( talk) 02:37, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
One other point. Looking at the state of the citations, I believe that we can now remove the 'This article needs additional citations for verification' tag. UrbanTerrorist ( talk) 21:03, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Since no one is talking about why they are changing the 'Country' designation and I'm not psychic, I'm having to guess. Is it possibly because when Gilgamesh in the Outback was published in book form by Silverberg in the novel 'To the Land of the Living' that it was originally publishing in the UK? Or am I missing something? UrbanTerrorist ( talk) 21:22, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Obviously that is the issue, but any excuse to accuse me of Conflict of Interest, promotional editing, removing "sourced" material, IP hopping, etc., etc., ad nauseum will be jumped on. I guess I just have to wait until someone higher than the present administrators involved decided to do something about a contentious editor who refuses to abide by consensus... a fact everyone seems to ignore. Probably because it is just too much trouble to go through all of the massive verbiage to evaluate the fact that this page keeps being changed to reflect a false reality - wrong publisher, wrong history of the creation of the story, and everything else. Hulcys930 ( talk) 18:24, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
With all the energy expended on this article, it remains woefully incomplete and gives undue weight to publication history while lacking a plot summary, critical reaction, awards and honors, and other basic features of this sort of article. - Dravecky ( talk) 20:24, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
OK, I've finished letting everyone know about this. I've also offered those whose talk pages have gotten out of control my expertise at setting up Mizabot for archiving. However it appears that some of them have gafiated. UrbanTerrorist ( talk) 16:39, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
This novella is a Hugo winner and Nebula nominee; I never thought for a moment that it was included in the merger decision about the volumes in the series! That would be absurd. -- Orange Mike | Talk 18:02, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
User:UrbanTerrorist tells me an administrator needs "a show of hands" regarding the scope of merger discussions of the "xxx In Hell" articles. I doubt that and I wasn't involved at the time, but I have reviewed Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Lawyers_in_Hell and found that the article remained focused on articles about the books and should not be seen as achieving any consensus on articles about stories within the books. I noticed the closing administrator's remarks, "The result was no consensus. Its impossible to read anything into this nonsense. I suggest that this gets relisted and the editors who have been bludgeoning this discussion to the point of imcomprehensibility should restrict themselves to one comment each." It is most regrettable that some editors have continued to worry at and fight over the bones of articles touching on Janet Morris's books for months and have made few, if any, other contributions to the encyclopedia. It is to the credit of the editor whom antagonists now refer to as "one editor" (thus evading searches?) that he has carried on working on maintaining and improving Wikipedia across a wide range of subjects. I personally regret that I have not had the opportunity to engage with User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz on the point on which I disagree with him in the "xxx In Hell" articles as even the briefest conversation is interrupted by walls of words, threats and even the occasional utilitarian and swiftly withdrawn apology. In short, I am astounded and saddened that fine-tuning Wikipedia on such a trivial matter could become so important to anyone. There are much worse things in the world to be combated and much greater things to be achieved. NebY ( talk) 20:21, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Humpf. Well, some users may have made few edits, but I've made a lot, most of them on highly technical subjects. I usually avoid silly stuff like this. However NebY does bring up an interesting point. All of the merge discussion did occur after the AfD, the language used was "All Pages", there were no exclusions mentioned. At least not until I tried to complete the merge, at which point various complaints were advanced. If you had not intended this article to be merged, you should have said so during the merge discussion. Since you didn't say so during the merge discussion, I think the merge should be completed, else the merge should be undone.
Another issue that should be considered is Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive135#Gilgamesh in the Outback which I've just found. It makes interesting reading. In it editor Hullaballoo Wolfowitz appears to be a side of one. The only editor who agreed with Hullaballoo Wolfowitz was Hullaballoo Wolfowitz. It is very unusual to find an editor standing alone. UrbanTerrorist ( talk) 00:17, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I understood the merge included all pages, including Gilgamesh in the Outback. I favor that. Advisory that I'm slightly involved, having written one story in this universe.
Mzmadmike (
talk) 01:45, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
My understanding of the Lawyers in Hell AfD was that it only covered the books in the Heroes in Hell series and not any of the story articles linked to in the books. Being a notable Hugo-winning novella, I believe that Gilgamesh in the Outback should remain a free-standing article. — Bruce1ee talk 08:35, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
The reference in the first paragraph that says
The words "which were also published in the Heroes in Hell series" [or the names of the specific books] should be added immediately after "Uruk." Otherwise it looks like he wrote the stories and they just sat on his desk until To the Land of the Living was created by merging the three stories.
In the Infobox, the Publisher field needs to have "Baen Books" added since the story was published in Rebels in Hell from Baen. Thank You. Hulcys930 ( talk) 20:45, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
The following is the actual summary of Gilgamesh in the Outback by Brian Thomsen, without any redacted words or phrases or selective editing:
The above obviously supports the contention that, according to Mr. Thomsen, Mr. Silverberg wrote the story for the Heroes in Hell series, specifically for Rebels in Hell and was printed in Asimov's Science Fiction,(See refs) as a "first sequel." The neutral, chronological listing suggested by lifebaka simply indicating the story was published in Asimov's and Rebels in Hell should replace the present publishing history, without reference to "first serial" "originally published" or any other verbiage.
The inaccurate description text of the page which attempts to show the story as having been written independently of the shared world anthology, and then "reprinted" in 'Rebels in Hell' later, needs to be edited to reflect the truthful genesis of the story.
Refs:
Hugo87
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).locsfa
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).brnov1
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).uscopy
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).uscopy2
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
Outside of the pages of Wikipedia, there's zero dispute about where this story first appeared. Note that the Locus Fiction Index, which is as about as definitive as things get for the genre, lists "Gilgamesh in the Outback" as reprinted from IASFM, while all the other stories in the volume are identified as originals [1] [2]. And, since you're now claiming that a second one of AgBerg's Gilgamesh novellas was original to the anthologies, perhaps you'll tell us which one. "Gilgamesh in Uruk", which appeared in IASFM six months before the anthology appeared [3]? Or "The Fascination of the Abomination", which ran in IASFM merely three months earlier [4]? This link might also be of value to you [5]. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz ( talk) 02:15, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Locus isn't consistent. To quote:
To the Land of the Living, a mosaic adapted from two novellas that originally appeared in the Heroes in Hell anthology series, is a much lighter affair, but thoroughly enjoyable.
Locus also is not a reliable source. The only reliable source is the Permissions Page or Copyright Information Page which appears at the front of every book published. I have a copy of Rebels in Hell here though any book would do, and this is exactly what is on the Permissions page:
REBELS IN HELL
This is a work of fiction. All of the characters and events in this book are fictional, and any resemblance to real people or events is purely coincidental.
Copyright © 1986 by Janet Morris
All rights reserved, including the right to reproduce this book or portions thereof in any form.
A Baen Books Original
In Canada distributed by PaperJacks Ltd.,
330 Steelcase Road, Markham, Ontario
First Printing, July 1986
ISBN: 0-671-65577-9
Cover art by David Mattingly
Printed in Canada
Distributed by
SIMON & SCHUSTER
TRADE PUBLISHING GROUP
1230 Avenue of the Americas
New York, N. Y. 10020
Assuming I didn't make any typos, that is accurate. Do you see anything in the Permissions/Copyright page about Gilgamesh in the Outback being a reprint in Rebels in Hell? No you don't, because it wasn't. Now go get something like the "Science Fiction Hall of Fame" off your book shelf, and look at the Permissions/Copyright page. The entire thing says "Originally printed" for every single story. This is a legal necessity.
If the Silverberg and Benford stories were reprints the various Hell volumes would have had to indicate this on the Permissions/Copyright page. Since it wasn't indicated on the Permissions/Copyright page they were not reprints. Basic first grade logic.
Permissions/Copyright pages exist for legal reasons. They lay out who or what is responsible for what appears in a book. This allows anyone who has a complaint to know who to contact, and if necessary who to sue. Most books are published without any issues, and then you come to the odd one like John David California's 60 Years Later: Coming Through the Rye.
At this point I'm going to get a bit nasty. Sorry, but you've asked for it. You seem to be trying to educate Janet Morris about fine points of law on reprints, and what this requires in the way of permissions. Janet Morris has been an editor for a damned long time. Sit back and think. She's forgotten more about this than you will ever know.
Exactly how mad do you wish to make her? From her comment on the Heroes in Hell discussion page I suspect she is damned near ready to call in the lawyers.
Oh, and the Heroes in Hell discussion page says that this article was merged into the Heroes in Hell article. By bringing it back from the dead you may cause Wikipedia's system some problems. UrbanTerrorist ( talk) 19:03, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Both publications of "Gilgamesh in the Outback" have a July 1987 publishing date. To call a work as "originally published," one would need citations of such things as printing and distribution records, appearance dates at newsstands and bookstores, all of which would be difficult. I would suggest avoiding this unnecessary controversy by simply stating the facts: "Gilgamesh in the Outback was published in the July 1987 Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine and the shared universe anthology Rebels in Hell, published by Baen Books." I have listed the works alphabetically by title. To claim that the work was "originally" published in Asimov's implies that Silverberg wrote it for Asimov's first and then Janet Morris, the Rebels in Hell editor, reprinted it in her anthology. This allegation requires a citation. To support a reprint in Rebels in Hell one would have to look at Silverberg's Rebels in Hell contracts and his Asimov's contracts - again, another citation. But why go to this unnecessary work when for WP purposes a statement of the actual publishing history is sufficient? To belabor the "originality" claim raises issues of intellectual property and even libel, since they raise questions of the editors' skills. This article should state the facts simply and avoid potential legal claims. Dokzap ( talk) 05:51, 17 August 2011 (UTC)Dokzap
Correction: Both publications are for July 1986. The suggested edit would be: "Gilgamesh in the Outback was published in the July 1986 Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine and the shared universe anthology Rebels in Hell, published in July 1986 by Baen Books." Dokzap ( talk) 04:35, 18 August 2011 (UTC)Dokzap
"This fits (more or less) into the shared universe of Hell lorded over by C.J. Cherryh and Janet Morris, though it's not mentioned in this book (probably due to somebody's contracts with somebody else). It continues the adventures of the mythical king into a strange version of the afterworld. I call it strange because it does not fit completely with any religious vision of an afterlife. In the other Hell books, there is a basic Christian slant, with demons presiding over the dead and occasional references to a satanic being in charge, but Hell is not just for sinners. Everyone is there, from Hitler to the saints, from the beginning of the human race to sometime in the 21st century. Silverberg takes a more general view, and the Christian elements of Cherryh and Morris's scenario are not present, and in fact this book stands a little outside the general tone of the rest of the series. "One of the basic ideas of the Hell books is that once a person is there, it's forever. If you get killed you come back in a new body after a short time. Another basic idea is that there is no way out. Gilgamesh makes it his quest to find a way out of Hell, a way back to Earth. The irony is that in life, his quest was to make it to the land of the dead to be with his friend Enkidu, and now that he's there, he wants to leave, though he still seeks Enkidu. "The book started as the novella Gilgamesh in the Outback in Rebels in Hell and in that form was nominated for Nebula Award for best novella, 1987. Chapters 1-5 are that novella. Chapters 7-11 were published as The Fascination of the Abomination in Angels in Hell. The title character of Lord of Darkness features prominently in this book as well. I've read a number of the other books in the Hell series, and while they're sometimes enjoyable, I'm not sure I can recommend them. Cherryh's stories are particularly grating to me (which is unusual as she is one of my favorite writers), with their idea that only the famous people of history are important and ordinary people don't even rate bodies in Hell (this is not the way it works in Silverberg's Hell stories, or even many of the other writers in this shared universe). (Robert Silverberg, http://www.majipoor.com/work.php?id=1190 Dokzap ( talk) 02:13, 21 August 2011 (UTC)Dokzap
Hullaballoo Wolfowitz and any other interested editors - You failed to respond to the following post by Dokzap which would solve this dispute, allow corresponding edits to be made on all affected pages and everyone could move on:
Thus, there would be no perceived insult to either Mr. Silverberg or Ms. Morris and the Heroes in Hell shared word/universe, and the information would be completely accurate, since the story WAS published in both with the same publication date of July 1, 1986. Trying to prove this many years later which one was first seen by a human eye (outside of the involved publishing/distributing entities) is not possible due to issues of which you have been apprised before: advance copies for reviewers, early shipped copies to sellers, actual date of receipt by subscribers, etc.; to continue to insist you can determine which came first is sophistry. Wikipedia may not be about the "truth" but I think everyone believes it is at the very least factual and, hopefully, accurate. Hulcys930 ( talk) 03:10, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
If it pleases Hullaballoo Wolfowitz to note the earlier sell-by date, and to note that one citation says "first published," with a note to that citation, I do not object to that additional bibliographic citation. My suggestion was to make a simple, precise, non controversial citation. Note that the issue of "first published" or "originally published" is of limited utility, though, since Mr. Silverberg's quasi-official Web page, and his approved commentator, Jon Davis, has established the provenance of "Gilgamesh in the Outback" as having been written as part of the Heroes in Hell/Rebels in Hell series. Saying the work was "first published" in Asimov's does not take away from its creation as part of the Heroes in Hell/Rebels in Hell series -- unless one wants to deny the Majipoor.com citation. Dokzap ( talk) 21:05, 23 August 2011 (UTC)Dokzap
"The following information was edited into the Gilgamesh In The Outback page, along with the message to Mr. Wolfowitz, by someone not familiar with Wikipedia. However, in an abundance of caution that the information will be removed from the page at any moment, I apologize for the length but due to the subject matter I have no other choice and am copying the information here for the edification of the other editors: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hulcys930 ( talk • contribs) 07:14, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
DELIBERATELY PRESENTING SELECTIVE AND MISLEADING INFORMATION AKA REWRITING HISTORY
The following information was edited into the Gilgamesh In The Outback page, along with the message to Mr. Wolfowitz, by someone not familiar with Wikipedia. However, in an abundance of caution that the information will be removed from the page at any moment, I apologize for the length but due to the subject matter I have no other choice and am copying the information here for the edification of the other editors:
ALL UN-BIASED EDITORS, PLEASE EXAMINE THE CITATIONS OF BOTH VERSIONS OF THE "GILGAMESH IN THE OUTBACK" PAGE AND DECIDE WHAT SHOULD BE DONE. THANK YOU. Hulcys930 ( talk) 04:07, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Re. citing Brian Thomsen's "Novel Ideas" as a source for "first published in July 1986 Asimov's"; Hulaballoo Wolfowitz has found a Google Books acknowledgements page from Brian Thomsen in "Novel Ideas" and cites it as evidence of "Gilgamesh in the Outback" as being first published in the July 1986 Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine. I suggest that the late Brian Thomsen might have had a conflict of interest or bias in wanting to note the "first published" listing for Asimov's. The American edition of "To the Land of the Living" was a Warner Books/Popular Library Questar book, and at the time (1990) Brian Thomsen was the Questar editor -- i.e., he edited "To The Land of the Living." Because of Thomsen's involvement with Silverberg in the editing of "To the Land of the Living," that Thomsen chose to acknowledge the Asimov's publication of "Gilgamesh in the Outback" and not the "Rebels in Hell" publication (or both) should not be taken as a definite and reliable citation. That citation should be qualified as possibly biased. Dokzap ( talk) 19:47, 28 August 2011 (UTC)Dokzap
References
First:
Gilgamesh in the Outback is a science fiction novella by Robert Silverberg, and part of Janet Morris's shared-universe series Heroes in Hell. It won the Hugo Award for Best Novella in 1987 and was also nominated for the Nebula Award for Best Novella in 1986.[1][2] Originally published in Asimov's Science Fiction[3][4], it was then printed in Rebels in Hell[5] before being incorporated into Silverberg's novel To the Land of the Living.
Second:
Robert Silverberg wrote that he was "drawn into" writing a story for for the "Heroes in Hell" project. While he remembered that the central concept of the series was "never clearly explained" to him, he noted the similarity of "Heroes in Hell" to Philip Jose Farmer's Riverworld works, and decided "to run my own variant on what Farmer had done a couple of decades earlier." After writing "Gilgamesh in the Outback," he decided that, since the story "was all so much fun," to write two sequels, "The Fascination of the Abomination" and "Gilgamesh in Uruk." In writing those stories, as Silverberg recalled, he "never read many of the other 'Heroes in Hell' stories", and had "no idea" of how consistent his work was with that of his "putative collaborators"; instead, he had "gone his own way . . . with only the most tangential links to what others had invented."[6]
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.101.127.139 ( talk • contribs) 11:59, 26 August 2011
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
2nd paragraph, first line, remove the repeated word "for" -- 98.218.161.68 ( talk) 00:35, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
There is a discussion on the BLP noticeboard about this article. The article as it is looks fine to me. Is there still a dispute? Jarhed ( talk) 18:13, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
Originally published in Asimov's Science Fiction, it was then printed in Rebels in Hell before being incorporated into Silverberg's novel To the Land of the Living. [9]
Originally published in Asimov's Science Fiction [1] [2], it was then printed in Rebels in Hell [3] before being incorporated into Silverberg's novel To the Land of the Living. [10]
If anybody cares what I think, first, I see no BLP issues in any of this and I wish you would not use that forum unless you can clearly spell out the BLP issue. Second, there are some editors on this article whose emotions are out of control. When I feel this way, I find that staying away from WP for at least a few days helps. Third, the accusations of bad faith that are flying around are against WP guidelines. If you editors continue this behavior, I predict that at least one of you will get himself or herself blocked. Finally, if you are having problems with a contentious editor, I recommend that you go to the administrator's noticeboard, read the instructions there, and follow them. I actually care about getting the Silverberg attribution right, and I want you editors to straighten it out. Have a great day! Jarhed ( talk) 21:04, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi guys, I am responding to the additional info that was left on the BLP noticeboard. I do not care to work on this article at all except for BLP issues, and at present I don't see any. Please refrain from using the BLP noticeboard for a content dispute. Everything that I said in the paragraph above starting with "If anybody cares" still stands. Cheers! Jarhed ( talk) 04:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
References
Okay, since there's obviously still a dispute about this, let's sit down and talk it out. From before I've seen zero dispute that this story was published in both Asimov's and Rebels in Hell in 1986. Why, then, can't we just agree to disagree about original publication, first serial rights, and all that, and simply say it was published in both in 1986. We'll all be equally (un)happy about the result, it'll be strictly factual and absolutely indisputable.
To be explicit, why don't we change the first paragraph of the lead as follows? (removals struck through, additions in green)
Gilgamesh in the Outback is a science fiction novella by Robert Silverberg, and part of Janet Morris's shared-universe series Heroes in Hell. It won the Hugo Award for Best Novella in 1987 and was also nominated for the Nebula Award for Best Novella in 1986. [1] [2]
OriginallyIt was published in Asimov's Science Fiction,[3] [4]it was then printedand in Rebels in Hell in 1986 [5] before being incorporated into Silverberg's novel To the Land of the Living.
Thoughts? lifebaka ++ 00:46, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
A strict chronological publishing history would be wonderful! The body of the article would also need to be reverted to its state prior to H.Wolfowitz' imaginative rewrite when he disagreed with the consensus reached in the Dispute Resolution, changing the wording that had existed basically unchanged since 2008. Since early August, a virtually identical NPOV publishing history has been proposed and agreed to by all editors except H.Wolfowitz. Based on the following edit comment from H.Wolfowitz:
I will be pleased but surprised if you can obtain H.Wolfowitz' agreement. Hulcys930 ( talk) 05:16, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
The above is a very convoluted way of saying "If Wikipedia has been using terminology that is incorrect to keep from confusing their readers, it must be followed religiously, regardless of the errors, even when it portrays situations incorrectly." The following definitions are found in numerous locations on the internet. They are not difficult to understand and in no way impact any supposed "PR" issue being constantly asserted by HW. I seriously doubt that the term "respect the conventional expectations of readers for a given topic" was intended to be conflated with: one must use this terminology even if the wording of the conventional expectations of readers gives the reader an absolutely inaccurate understanding. If the terms used in Wikipedia for very simple situations are incorrect, they should be changed:
Finding Go! Matching Questions and Resources in Getting Published (Winterwolf, 2004)[ [13]]
"First Serial Rights: This allows work to be excerpted in magazines or other periodicals.
Reprint: A book or other publication in its second or subsequent printing. If extensive changes have been made, it’s called, instead, an edition."
Since the exact terms of art under discussion are listed in many places on the internet (see above) and in other venues substantiating the fact that the terms in question are well-known and used constantly in contracts in the publishing industry, the assertion that said terms are "an idiosyncratic, self-serving usage devised by a small group of COI editors undocumented and otherwise unsupported by any independent sources" is obviously seriously inaccurate. I was not aware of the assertion by H.Wolfowitz that there were no "independent sources" listed to verify the definitions used throughout the publishing industry. There are plenty more if anyone requires them.
Aside from the fact that no one is asking that the words "first serial" or "originally published" be included in the publishing history of this story any longer, insisting that it is acceptable to provide incorrect/inaccurate information based on the excuse that the Wikipedia terminology must be strictly adhered to even when by doing so, the reader is left with a wholly different view of history is, once again, sophistry. When the "generally accepted" definition varies from a definition of a specific term of art in a specific industry in such a way as to completely controvert the actual meaning of the terms, it would be advisable to use the correct terms and, if the general consensus feels it is necessary, a short, simple in-place attribution should clear up any confusion that might occur. Most people who would be reading about the publishing history of any publication would probably be able to figure out the terms without much trouble if given a short, accurate definition. Hulcys930 ( talk) 19:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
The article starts with the words 'Gilgamesh in the Outback is a science fiction novella'. I believe that the story is around ten thousand words, which would make it a short story according to the SFWA definitions. There is also the issue of Genre. Technically Gilgamesh in the Outback is a Bangsian Fantasy. A careful read of it will show that it has none of the trappings usually associated with Science Fiction stories. Since the awards it won, and was nominated for are awards that are associated with SFWA, and since it is self evidently a Bangsian Fantasy, I would suggest changing the wording to 'Gilgamesh in the Outback is a Bangsian Fantasy short story'. Sorry if this sounds like minor quibbling, but I like getting the details right. Aspergers Syndrome you know. UrbanTerrorist ( talk) 18:39, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
I know it wasn't particularly well-received, but is there a link anywhere for "The Land of the Living" as either a British or American novel? Maybe there is something on a UK novel site. Hulcys930 ( talk) 02:37, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
One other point. Looking at the state of the citations, I believe that we can now remove the 'This article needs additional citations for verification' tag. UrbanTerrorist ( talk) 21:03, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Since no one is talking about why they are changing the 'Country' designation and I'm not psychic, I'm having to guess. Is it possibly because when Gilgamesh in the Outback was published in book form by Silverberg in the novel 'To the Land of the Living' that it was originally publishing in the UK? Or am I missing something? UrbanTerrorist ( talk) 21:22, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Obviously that is the issue, but any excuse to accuse me of Conflict of Interest, promotional editing, removing "sourced" material, IP hopping, etc., etc., ad nauseum will be jumped on. I guess I just have to wait until someone higher than the present administrators involved decided to do something about a contentious editor who refuses to abide by consensus... a fact everyone seems to ignore. Probably because it is just too much trouble to go through all of the massive verbiage to evaluate the fact that this page keeps being changed to reflect a false reality - wrong publisher, wrong history of the creation of the story, and everything else. Hulcys930 ( talk) 18:24, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
With all the energy expended on this article, it remains woefully incomplete and gives undue weight to publication history while lacking a plot summary, critical reaction, awards and honors, and other basic features of this sort of article. - Dravecky ( talk) 20:24, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
OK, I've finished letting everyone know about this. I've also offered those whose talk pages have gotten out of control my expertise at setting up Mizabot for archiving. However it appears that some of them have gafiated. UrbanTerrorist ( talk) 16:39, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
This novella is a Hugo winner and Nebula nominee; I never thought for a moment that it was included in the merger decision about the volumes in the series! That would be absurd. -- Orange Mike | Talk 18:02, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
User:UrbanTerrorist tells me an administrator needs "a show of hands" regarding the scope of merger discussions of the "xxx In Hell" articles. I doubt that and I wasn't involved at the time, but I have reviewed Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Lawyers_in_Hell and found that the article remained focused on articles about the books and should not be seen as achieving any consensus on articles about stories within the books. I noticed the closing administrator's remarks, "The result was no consensus. Its impossible to read anything into this nonsense. I suggest that this gets relisted and the editors who have been bludgeoning this discussion to the point of imcomprehensibility should restrict themselves to one comment each." It is most regrettable that some editors have continued to worry at and fight over the bones of articles touching on Janet Morris's books for months and have made few, if any, other contributions to the encyclopedia. It is to the credit of the editor whom antagonists now refer to as "one editor" (thus evading searches?) that he has carried on working on maintaining and improving Wikipedia across a wide range of subjects. I personally regret that I have not had the opportunity to engage with User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz on the point on which I disagree with him in the "xxx In Hell" articles as even the briefest conversation is interrupted by walls of words, threats and even the occasional utilitarian and swiftly withdrawn apology. In short, I am astounded and saddened that fine-tuning Wikipedia on such a trivial matter could become so important to anyone. There are much worse things in the world to be combated and much greater things to be achieved. NebY ( talk) 20:21, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Humpf. Well, some users may have made few edits, but I've made a lot, most of them on highly technical subjects. I usually avoid silly stuff like this. However NebY does bring up an interesting point. All of the merge discussion did occur after the AfD, the language used was "All Pages", there were no exclusions mentioned. At least not until I tried to complete the merge, at which point various complaints were advanced. If you had not intended this article to be merged, you should have said so during the merge discussion. Since you didn't say so during the merge discussion, I think the merge should be completed, else the merge should be undone.
Another issue that should be considered is Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive135#Gilgamesh in the Outback which I've just found. It makes interesting reading. In it editor Hullaballoo Wolfowitz appears to be a side of one. The only editor who agreed with Hullaballoo Wolfowitz was Hullaballoo Wolfowitz. It is very unusual to find an editor standing alone. UrbanTerrorist ( talk) 00:17, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I understood the merge included all pages, including Gilgamesh in the Outback. I favor that. Advisory that I'm slightly involved, having written one story in this universe.
Mzmadmike (
talk) 01:45, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
My understanding of the Lawyers in Hell AfD was that it only covered the books in the Heroes in Hell series and not any of the story articles linked to in the books. Being a notable Hugo-winning novella, I believe that Gilgamesh in the Outback should remain a free-standing article. — Bruce1ee talk 08:35, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
The reference in the first paragraph that says
The words "which were also published in the Heroes in Hell series" [or the names of the specific books] should be added immediately after "Uruk." Otherwise it looks like he wrote the stories and they just sat on his desk until To the Land of the Living was created by merging the three stories.
In the Infobox, the Publisher field needs to have "Baen Books" added since the story was published in Rebels in Hell from Baen. Thank You. Hulcys930 ( talk) 20:45, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
The following is the actual summary of Gilgamesh in the Outback by Brian Thomsen, without any redacted words or phrases or selective editing:
The above obviously supports the contention that, according to Mr. Thomsen, Mr. Silverberg wrote the story for the Heroes in Hell series, specifically for Rebels in Hell and was printed in Asimov's Science Fiction,(See refs) as a "first sequel." The neutral, chronological listing suggested by lifebaka simply indicating the story was published in Asimov's and Rebels in Hell should replace the present publishing history, without reference to "first serial" "originally published" or any other verbiage.
The inaccurate description text of the page which attempts to show the story as having been written independently of the shared world anthology, and then "reprinted" in 'Rebels in Hell' later, needs to be edited to reflect the truthful genesis of the story.
Refs:
Hugo87
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).locsfa
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).brnov1
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).uscopy
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).uscopy2
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).