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This article states that according to sources 9,15, and 16 advocates of ger toshav and noahide category are mostly racist and supremacist. This seems like a highly subjective interpretation of these articles which are themselves somewhat suspect. This category in Judaism is somewhat akin to People Of The Book in Islam--race is not a major factor. The dog whistle about Jewish supremacy harkens to Hitler who used exactly the same term. Source nine does not mention race, only that Kahane did not believe Palestinians should be allowed to live in Israel. But, I presume this only referred to non Noahides and applied equally to all other ethnicities. It would be unfair to paint Chabad with Meir Kahane's terrorist brush in any case. The only mention of race in 15 is anecdotally when an tribal elder states that white people rule the world and are therefore lucky. In source 16 it states that chabad has essentially laid down an ethnic hierarchy according to Feldman. But, imho this view is only viable if Jews are thought of as a race and not a convert-accepting world religion, a classic antisemitic trope. Directly prior it states the liberal view of Jewish philosopher Herman Cohen that the Noahide laws contain a general moral outlook that transcends the fate of the Jewish people. Surely some articles exist on Jewish subjects that don't promote the notion of everything related to Judaism as a colonialist project while leaving silent the racism inherent in Christianity and Islam's classical interpretations and respective understandings of their own nonbelievers.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.122.119.215 ( talk • contribs)
Hi Mzk1. I reverted this edit back to "Maimonides". The entire article was 100% WP:OR from primary sources prior to this one token academic source being added, which means that the rest of the articles is "according to some Wikipedian's interpretation of Maimonides/Rashi etc." We don't put "according to __ interpretation" unless there are 2 or more interpretations or unless a source is notably fringe. I'm assuming Marc Kellner here is Menachem Kellner, Professor of Jewish Thought at the University of Haifa, in which case not notably fringe unless proven otherwise. In ictu oculi ( talk) 01:28, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Or alternatively disambiguate better using modern sources. If they are two things, then two articles. They may be. In ictu oculi ( talk) 11:02, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
First of all, I checked the links. It is not vanilla. Unsourced, it's closer to nonsense. As a matter of fact, the term "Ger Toshav" appears explicitly in Lev. 25:47. On the other hand, I don't know if "Ger Tzedek" appears anywhere; certainly not in the Torah. One link refers to the term Ger and mentions both a Ger Tzedek AND a Ger Toshav - links right back to here. The second refers to Football. The third refers to the Christian Bible, and Ger Toshav is a purely rabbinic concept. In short, it is just someone's opinion, and it needs sourcing and balancing. With no source, it needs deletion.
Secondly, something is either sourced (even poorly) or not. Do the generic references without footnotes source the article or do they not. If not, I can remove the unsourced parts if I want, as I retained most of it, I think. (I can give a counter to at least one removed statement.) If it is, I need to put it back, and I don't know if CN applies.
(I don't know where you got the idea that this is all the Rambam. The ET has extensive footnotes. As far as I know, there is no Ger Toshav in historical sources. The ET is also translated; I just don't have access to that version.)
Mzk1 (
talk) 19:50, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
The concepts of Ger Tzedek and Ger Toshav are discussed in the Talmud. Rambam only talks about it because he is a codifier of the Talmud. The fact that it's a rabbinic concept does not make it "just someone's opinion". That's a ridiculous statement. You might as well say that laws requiring separate utensils for meat and dairy is "just someone's opinion". - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 11:26, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
In ictu oculi, You've added a number of edits on the assumption that the halakhic category of ger toshav has something to do with the biblical phrase ger v'toshav. So you have related it to Abraham, who uses that phrase about himself when negotiating with the Hittites for a burial place for Sarah. But this is unsubstantiated (and unsubstantiable). The concept is a rabbinic one. And while it is clearly related to the Noahide laws, it is not something that can just be merged with that article. For example, Milk and meat in Jewish law and Kashrut are separate articles.
The concept of ger toshav is about non-Jews who are permitted, according to halakha, to live in the land of Israel. One of the requirements to be in that category is adherence to the Noahide laws. But it isn't the only one, and the Noahide laws are binding, according to Jewish law, on all human beings. If you'd like to create an article on Strangers in Christianity or something of that sort, feel free to do so. - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 11:38, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
There is no call for Strangers in the Hebrew Bible and Strangers in the Talmud to be separate articles at this point.
I thought I could work with I/O/O, but he appears to have thrown out the entire concept of good faith. He complained that it was unsourced, so I removed the unsourced material, and he put some of it back without sourcing it. For example, the entire article on god-fearers refers to the Christian Bible, and I explicitly stated above that it is from there, yet he put it back as part of the Hebrew Bible without sourcing(!) There is an entire section (Second Temple) that is not germane to the topic, the first Biblical quote refers to a source in a completely different field - OK, I've argued with JayjG about that concept also - and he uses the King James to give a non-literal translation of the "Hebrew Bible" (Maybe the "Hebrew Bible" also says "Kiss the Son"?).
If he has better things to do, maybe he should do them. I have better things to do than clean up after him. For the moment, I won't touch it, in case Lisa wants to do a full revert. Mzk1 ( talk) 21:13, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Is there an article in the Jewish Encyclopedia which refs the "strangers and sojourners" in the Land? In ictu oculi ( talk) 22:27, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
We need to clear this up. The Tanakh part of has been deleted twice now on the basis that the Tanakh ger v-toshav גֵּר־וְתֹושָׁב (Abraham, Leviticus x2) is totally unrelated to the Talmud passages on the "stranger". The article now has in it Rashi and Rabbi Reuven Hammer 2011. Before (cur | prev) 23:24, 26 October 2011 Brewcrewer (talk | contribs) (6,139 bytes) comes back with "SYNTH nonsense. Lisa is correct" and deletes the Tanakh section again. Can we determine this. Are there WP:RS that says the gerim v toshavim in Lev 25:35 is unrelated to the ger toshav in the Talmud. In ictu oculi ( talk) 06:40, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
This is getting ridiculous. First, have a look at Shabbat and Biblical Sabbath. At the top of the first is a note that reads: This article is about the rest day in Judaism. For Sabbath in the Bible, see Biblical Sabbath. The fact that the title of the article is in Hebrew, as IIO has pointed out, indicates that this is about the category of ger toshav in Judaism. If he wants another article, he's free to create one, but right now, he's doing nothing but vandalizing this article. - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 15:52, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Let me add that the term halakhic ger toshav is linked to some uses of the phrase ger v'toshav in the Torah. Not, however, to all of them. And the linkage does not mean that they are 100% the same thing. And unless IIO has a reliable source that says otherwise, he should stop adding irrelevant material to this article. - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 15:55, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
While I see some (very small) justification for IIO's additions, being that they are cited and supported, and relate to the same phrase, the information still seems too tangential and disorganized to merit inclusion in this article. In C., the term "stranger and sojourner" seems at best to be a secondary, ancillary phrase that a pastor might pick up on to build a sermon, but not something deserving an article in its own right. In contrast, halacha treats ger toshav as an entire area of law in its own right, and in such discussions, the term is invariably borrowed from Hebrew and used as is, even in English. Therefore, I propose that other religions' perspectives on this term should only be included if they relate directly to the technical meaning of ger toshav. Other meanings (such as the general feeling of "statelessness" and "wandering") belong in other articles. (And if I was wrong about the significance of "stranger and sojourner" in that meaning, I encourage IIO to make such an article, as he seems more knowledgeable and expert about that usage than I.)
On that note, IIO's citation of Rashi caught my attention. It looked interesting since it linked the term to the phrase in the Torah, but the significance, nature and use of that link was left unexplained, and the entire citation unfortunately disappeared as a casualty of the edit war. Both Rashi and the Talmud are very terse, precise and efficient in language, so the mere fact that Rashi cited Leviticus indicates that he was explaining some point of logic with it. I'd like to look into it myself, and I thank IIO for bringing in that very relevant point. Musashiaharon ( talk) 08:13, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
>Please stop playing games. It is you who is asserting that the Bibical term "ger v-toshav" is identical to the Talmudic term "ger toshav", and are attempting to insert material based on that assertion<
References
FWIW Google Scholar has 416 hits for Talmud + "resident alien" and only 118 for Talmud + toshav. Brings us back to the question of where this material is covered in the Jewish Encyclopedia and other English-language tertiary reference sources. In ictu oculi ( talk) 02:13, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
One introductory note: To say "the Bible is a source of Jewish law", at least a direct source, is quite questionable.
I really do apologize, but this is a bit of a mess. I am concerned that i.i.o, with all good faith, is working in an area he is not familiar with. To give a personal example, I showed my Dad the article on electromigration, a field he has done quite a bit of work in, and he informed me that the article does not cover the sort he worked in. If I were to go to Google books and scholar and create a section based on the results, I think the other editors, who actually understand Chemistry, would be quite upset at me.
I also have a question about methodology. Are you (i.i.o), just typing in phrases in Google books and Scholar and putting in the result, whithout looking a context, reviewing the entire work, seeing if the work / author is significant, differentiating between Biblical interpretation and Jewish Law (quite differnt fields), traditional and counter-traditional sources, academic publishers and otherwise? Or am I misjudging based on the spped with which you find these?
Some specific notes on references:
Here are some issues:
1. The first verse contains get v'toshav although this is not so clear. Then there is a bit about that some translations use two words, when this is what the literal Hebrew does anyway. Then there is a quote giving a verse where both ger toshav AND ger v'toshav appears, but you would not know this from the quote. If you are going to get into this, you will need to either give a literal Hebrew translation, or transliterate the terms and explain the difference (what a vav is). A vav is certainly not always ignored. I'm not sure any of this is necessary.
2. Then, instead of giving the Talmud references first, there is a whole jumble of quotations. I'm not sure what the point of the first part is - the rabbinic term is ger toshav, but the referenced verses in Jewish law have ger toshav, ger v'toshav, and even just ger. On the other hand, the verse by Abraham may or may not be related, but he certainly is not a ger toshav, since the hittites are presumably not versed in Jewish law. I'm not sure we need the whole first part, and I would put the last part under modern views. (I'm not sure what to do with the last bit, or if it is necessary; I would need to know the publisher and the ufull quote first. Is this Reform halacha? It should be labeled as such.)
3. If you want to do a full list of verses used for Ger Toshav in Jewish law, then do it, but in some more orderly manner, preferably from one source. For example, the quote from Aryeh Kaplan (ad. loc. what?) seems to refer to an undisputed reference to ger Toshav as if it is disputed (which I cannot imagine him doing), but I have no context.
4. Please note the Jewish law and traditional Biblical interpretation are not the same thing. The Talmud does not derive on the literal level (p'shat), but the legal (d'rash) level. Even Rashi, who generally quotes a midrash, will used a opinion that is not followed when he is explaining a verse. Ibn Ezra and Ramban (Nachmanides), though completely traditional, go much further. And then traditional interpretation and non-traditional should be separated, if only because the former is relevant to various political and economic issues in modern-day Israel, while the latter is not. Mzk1 ( talk) 22:01, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
There's an evident problem when one user (in this case Lisa) continually deletes WP:RS references which disagree with her own conviction. Among the sources deleted here are several relating rabbinical commentary on Leviticus 25 to Leviticus 25. At the same time as deleting WP:RS which clearly state that "stranger and foreigner" in Leviticus 25 and "stranger and foreigner" in rabbinical commentaries on Leviticus 25 are related Lisa is also refusing to cite sources that rabbinical commentary on Leviticus 25 and Leviticus 25 are separate subjects. What's the appropriate response here? Should the deleted 2/3 of the article be reverted until Lisa provides a source to justify the deletions? In ictu oculi ( talk) 18:50, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
(Copied from my user page, as I think it might be of use here. My main point is that discussing Vav's misses the point.)
Hi Mzk1, can I pick your brain on the grammatical question of hendiadys between ger v toshav in Leviticus, and ger toshav in Talmud and Rashi. Is it the case that Talmud consistently drops the waw in referring to Leviticus ger v toshav or does in the whole scheme of Chazal do ger v toshav and ger toshav with and without the waw conjunctive interplay? And is dropping of the waw more or less common in Aramaic texts than Hebrew texts? Any source on this. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:58, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
I deleted this section because it did not refer to people in the middle positions. It refers to "us" people (Essenes in this context) and complete foreigners (Nochrim in Biblical terminology), so there is no relevance to this article, which, even broadly defined, does not refer to either group. I was not trying to delete sectarian Judaism. Mzk1 ( talk) 23:08, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
First, just as a clarification, my inadvertant restoration of "The term is not used in the Hebrew Bible. However the Hebrew Bible does contain material on conditions for proselytes, converts, God-fearers, Noahide Laws, and regulations for foreigners living in the Land of Israel." was, as Mzk1 suggested, an accident.
User:In ictu oculi (IIO) has been engaging in a series of edits, in which he adds material that is not pertinent to the halakhic concept of ger toshav. Since ger toshav is purely a halakhic concept, which does not exist outside the bounds of halakhic literature, this is a mistake.
IIO has asked (demanded, really) that detailed explanations be given for the deletion of his edits. I'll do so here, piece by piece
Maimonides citation needed uses the term "a stranger-sojourner" in commentary on the term "a stranger-and-sojourner" in Leviticus without the copulative vav (Hebrew וְ "and"). The Hebrew term "a stranger-and-sojourner" ( Hebrew: גר ותושב Septuagint πάροικος καὶ παρεπίδημος), is also a concept found in the Hebrew Bible where it refers to Abraham, Israel and foreigners in Israel, and the concept also occurs in the New Testament and Christian literature, where Abraham's example is applied to life in pagan society.
Since Maimonides doesn't have a commentary on Leviticus, it might be nice to see where the first sentence here comes from. The claim that ger v'toshav in the case of Abraham is related to the concept of a ger toshav is one without basis. IIO seems to be laboring under the misapprehension that every use of that phrase in the Bible is related to every other use of the phrase. This is an interesting view, but it isn't one that IIO has even attempted to establish. He has, rather, made the claim over and over.
The term "stranger and sojourner" (Hebrew ger v-toshav) is first used in the Hebrew Bible attributed to Abraham when purchasing the cave in Mamre used for Sarah's grave. It then occurs in Leviticus 25:23 and 47 where the first of these uses refers to the Israelites themselves as "resident aliens" in God's promised land: [1] [2] [3]
The land shall not be sold permanently, for the land is mine, and you are resident aliens with me (Hebrew כִּֽי־גֵרִים וְתֹושָׁבִים אַתֶּם עִמָּדִֽי )"
— Leviticus 25:23 KJV 1611In the Septuagint and some later translations such as King James Version the term "resident alien" is translated with two nouns, "sojourners and strangers" (in Greek : προσήλυτοι καὶ πάροικοι "you are proselytes and aliens before me") [4]
It's hard to know where to start here. Rabbinic Judaism does not connect the phrase ger v'toshav -- as used in Genesis regarding Abraham -- with the legal category of ger toshav. It does connect the phrase ger v'toshav as used in Leviticus with that legal category, but IIO is making a logical jump without justification. It isn't sufficient for him to find extra-Judaic sources which make a link between the phrase as used in Genesis and the phrase as used in Leviticus. It must be a source within rabbinic literature. Otherwise, he is comparing apples and oranges.
In fact, the two uses of the term in Leviticus 25 aren't even related the way IIO thinks they are. Rabbinic Judaism sees Leviticus 25:47 as referring to a non-Jew living in the Land of Israel. But no source exists in Rabbinic Judaism which sees Leviticus 25:23 as implying that the Children of Israel are living in a land not their own. That verse states quite explicitly that since God owns everything, his ownership of the land trumps Israelite ownership. There is no legal consequence of this, while there is a legal consequence of Leviticus 25:47 where a non-Jew is living in the Land of Israel.
IIO claims that the phrase ger v'toshav is being used in Leviticus as a hendiadys, which means a redundant phrase used for emphasis. But rabbinic Judaism doesn't recognize such a concept. It sees all apparent "redundancies" as conveying additional information. And since the legal concept of ger toshav, which is the subject of this article, only exists in rabbinic Jewish literature, IIO is again mistaken.
In many halakhic writings the term "stranger-sojourner" (Hebrew ger-toshav without the waw-conjunctive) is used rather than "a stranger and sojourner" (Hebrew ger v-toshav, with the waw-conjunctive). Also in some rabbinical literature the obligations to a "a stranger-sojourner" (Hebrew ger toshav) are based upon Leviticus 25:35 "a stranger and sojourner", such as when Rashi connects the "stranger-sojourner" of the Talmud with the "stranger and sojourner" of the Tanakh. [5] Rashi also equates the "stranger" of Deuteronomy 14:21 with the "stranger-sojourner" of Avodah Zarah 20a. [6] Hammer (2011) makes equation of the "stranger and sojourner" in Leviticus to Genesis where Abraham is a "stranger and sojourner." [7] Rabbi David Max Eichhorn (1974) considers that there was a transition of treatment of the ger v-toshav, now know simply as the ger toshav in the more hostile atmosphere of post-exilic Israel. [8] Sifra Behar pereq. 9:2-3 interprets Leviticus on the ger v-toshav who has prospered to conclude that to steal from a ger toshav is less severe than to steal from a fellow Israelite, though this contradicts the teaching of Tosefta Baba Qamma 10:15. [9]
Okay, so let's look again. There are Jewish sources which link the phrase ger v'toshav in Leviticus 25:35 with the halakhic concept ger toshav. Also, there are Jewish sources which link the word ger in Deuteronomy 14:21 with ger toshav. Someone familiar with rabbinic Judaism would be aware that the term ger in the Torah sometimes refers to a ger toshav and sometimes refers to a ger tzedek: a convert to Judaism.
Rabbi David Max Eichhorn was a Reform rabbi. Since the Reform Movement didn't exist until the past couple of centuries, and since it formally rejects the mass of rabbinic scholarship which existed before it came into being, his view is of relevance in determining what modern-day Reform Jews may think of the concept of ger toshav. I have no objection to Eichhorn's position being included in the article, so long as it is placed in a "Modern era interpretations" section.
Since the entire section on Christianity relates Christian concepts to the story of Abraham, which IIO has not managed to link to any of this, it is purely WP:OR. - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 20:12, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
A content fork is the creation of multiple separate articles all treating the same subject. Content forks that are created unintentionally result in redundant or conflicting articles and are to be avoided. On the other hand, as an article grows, editors often create Summary style spin-offs or new, linked article for related material. This is acceptable, and often encouraged, as a way of making articles clearer and easier to manage.
I think I see part of IIO's problem. From what he wrote above, it seems that he considers the Talmud to be a "commentary on the Tanakh". It is not.
It is this mistaken notion, I think, which has IIO thinking that ger v'toshav as used in relation to Abraham in Genesis must mean the same thing that ger v'toshav in Leviticus means. He even posted a WP:RS showing that a modern, non-traditional author claims that the two are related. But while that may be a WP:RS for a claim that the two are related being something that has been proposed by a modern writer, it isn't a WP:RS for the two being related.
Ger v'toshav in Genesis and ger v'toshav in Leviticus are, according to all halakhic sources, as different as Springfield, Missouri and Springfield, Illinois. This is not unusual. As I pointed out earlier, the word ger is viewed in rabbinic thought as sometimes denoting a ger toshav and sometimes denoting a ger tzedek.
I'm tempted to create a Biblical views of the "stranger" article just to give IIO a place to put his edits. That article could include Abraham, the later uses of ger and ger v'toshav and the NT material IIO tried putting in this article.
Again, this entire dispute is all a matter of one editor -- User:In ictu oculi -- trying to turn an article on a Jewish technical concept into something else. Check out the articles on Chesed and Gevurah, just to use two examples. The terms chesed and gevurah are used a lot in the Bible. But those articles aren't about the words. They're about the concepts. Look at the articles Shabbat and Biblical Sabbath. The former is an article about a Jewish concept. The latter is not. Imagine going into the article on Shabbat and adding all sorts of non-Jewish ideas. The article notes at the top:
This article is about the rest day in Judaism. For Sabbath in the Bible, see Biblical Sabbath. For the Talmudic tractate, see Shabbat (Talmud). For other uses, see seventh-day Sabbath and first-day Sabbath.
It isn't a difficult concept. I'm at a loss to explain or understand IIO's insistence on changing this article into something it isn't. - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 15:16, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
References
After having read the above WP policy, and given that the WP:RS deleted from the article, rabbis Eichhorn, Hammer, etc., clearly link these:
Question - what are the WP:RS sources which say these are "unrelated" "not related" "unconnected" and require separate articles? In ictu oculi ( talk) 23:51, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Aryeh Kaplan, Abraham Sutton The handbook of Jewish thought Vol.2 1992 "It is for this reason that a Toshav is considered a "resident alien"; Rashi, Sifethey Chakhamim, ad loc. See, however, Avodah Zarah 20a sv LaGer, where Rashi equates Ger (in Deuteronomy 14:21) with Ger Toshav. "
Tractate Arachin Mesorah Publications 2008 p29a "That is, the law that a Jew is obligated to support and sustain a ger toshav {Leviticus 25:35) is in force only when the Yovel operates (Rashi )."
Rabbi David Max Eichhorn Jewish intermarriages: fact and fiction 1974 p17 "It was because of this hostile atmosphere that the "ger v'toshav," now known simply as "ger toshav," was no longer allowed to become a Jew simply by coming to live within the Jewish community. He now had to become a "ger tsedek"
Steven D. Fraade in Navigating the Anomalous: Non-Jews at the Intersection of Early Rabbinic Law and Narrative (essay also printed in The Other in Jewish Thought and History) 1994 "In striking contrast to this exclusionary exegesis, let us now consider the following inclusionary interpretation of another verse from Leviticus: 2. Sifra Behar pereq 9: 2-3: [" If a resident alien among you has prospered, and your brother, being in straits, comes under his ... "
or e.g.:
"As Yehezkel Kaufmann has so lucidly argued,' the concept of giur — the process of becoming a ger toshav — grew ... in the Midrash ha-Gadol to Leviticus 19:34: "The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as one of your citizens; ..." 20th Century Jewish Religious Thought Arthur A. Cohen, Paul Mendes-Flohr 2009 Page 919
We are not always able to grasp the psychological and emotional nuances of certain Hebrew words, but that in the expression ger toshav there lay no slightest disparagement is proven by the passage in Leviticus (25:23): "And the land ... Hayim Greenberg The inner eye: selected essays Volume 1 1953
"... to liquidating his movable goods, as it is stated (Leviticus 25, 14): "And if thou sell aught unto thy neighbour". ... and not only to a righteous stranger' (ie a proselyte who accepts the whole of Judaism) but also to a ger toshav ..." Studies in Vayikra (Leviticus) Nehama Leibowitz, Aryeh Newman, Nehama Leibowitz - 1980
For example, it is a duty to extend financial aid and support to a ger toshav, as it is written, "and [if] his means fail with you, then you shall uphold him, as a stranger [ger] and settler [toshav] shall he live with you" (Leviticus ..." Alouph Hareven Every sixth Israeli: relations between the Jewish majority and the Arab minority in Israel (The Van Leer Jerusalem Foundation series) 1983
For example, Cohen cites the controversy between Akiba and Ben Azai over whether Leviticus 19:18 (v'ahavta I'rey'acha ... (reya') by virtue of the latter term's connoting in addition the impoverished 'stranger-sojourner' (ger toshav), . Daniel H. Frank Autonomy and Judaism: the individual and the community in Jewish Philosophical Thought - Academy for Jewish Philosophy (U.S.). Meeting - 1992 Page 146
Indeed, Nachmanides, basing himself on Leviticus 25:35, rules that "We are commanded to saleguard the lile of a ger toshav, to save him from evil such that il he is drowning or has been buried under a heap or is sick, we are obliged to .. Shubert Spero Morality, halakha, and the Jewish tradition 1983 Page 131
All these sources connect ger toshav in Leviticus with ger toshav in rabbinic commentary on Leviticus In ictu oculi ( talk) 02:47, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm not arguing that they aren't connected. I'm arguing that neither of them is connected to the use of the phrase ger v'toshav in Genesis regarding Abraham.
Hello. There are two issues you seem to be avoiding. I have corresponded with you enough to assume good faith, and I think it is an issue of perspective.
1. You keep on proving that Ger v'Toshav and Ger Toshav are the same thing. Nobody is arguing that point in regards to legal issues. The question is whether there is any strong non-homiletic link between the use in legal sections, and the use in Genesis and (to a lesser extent) in the explanation of the Sabbatical Year. More to the point, that they are particularly relevant to this legal concept.
2. You seem to be ignoring the existence of Jewish Law as a notable subject, quite apart from Biblical interpretation. The laws of Ger Toshav relate in particular to the relations between Jews and non-Jews in the land of Israel. This effects economic and political issues here, going quite beyond the religious community. The entire controversy of allowing produce of the sabbatical year by selling to a Gentile, which affects several aspects of public life in Israel and goes back to the very beginning of Jewish re-settlement in Israel, impinges on this. ( http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/720988/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/Heter_Mechira; lecturer is perhaps the top Modern Orthodox authority on Jewish law in the US; see his article; location in lecture upon request.) Similarly, the issue is important to Noahides. Biblical interpretation is not particularly important here.
I am not that concerned with the extra stuff you stuck in, but rather that you are drowning the notable stuff with the not-so-notable or non-notable stuff. Also your cites are not filtered; I'm not sure you know the difference between major and obscure authorities - but at the very least you should not bring a source where you can get only a few lines, with an "ibid" that refers to something unknown, and not enough material to get the page number. And. mind you, this is a source I greatly respect, and have quoted in much of my editing - but in this case I have the entire book, not two paragraphs. Mzk1 ( talk) 07:18, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
I asked earlier where this article topic was in the Jewish Encyclopedia. I see now that it is included in two articles ALIEN and mentioned also in PROSELYTE - www.jewishencyclopedia.com/.../12391-proselyte - ".... phrase "yir'e Adonai" denotes either proselytes in general or a certain class ("ger toshab"; see below)." Given that proselyte and ger are the same word, should this article be merged with the main article proselyte or should two articles be preserved separately as the JE? And what would the modern English title of this article be? Aliens in Judaism probably not given modern association of aliens. Resident foreigners in Judaism? It must be possible to express an idea in line with WP:EN when the majority of sources use English. In ictu oculi ( talk) 02:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I hate to point this out, but after all this talk we still have the problem of a user 1. deleting academic sources and 2. forcibly excluding the original use of the term (Leviticus), from which all other tradition follows, from the article. In ictu oculi ( talk) 18:15, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
I have stated specific issues with some of your RS's, and with your methodology, which you have not addressed. I don't blame you for not having time to get into this, but I am stating this in response to your continual claim that your sources are all RS.
Also, you keep on stating that we are following our own POV's. Actually, my POV states that the Bible does refer, in many cases to Ger Toshav. I am trying not to use it. And you still don't address the issue that Jewish Law is its own discipline.
Mzk1 (
talk) 22:01, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
In ictu, I'm in the middle of reviewing the sources you added on 12 Nov. While there is some good material there I'd like to see put back, there are some instances where I am noticing worrisome research patterns similar to those in our most recent exchange here. I do not mean any disrespect, but if I may presume upon our mutual goodwill, I would like to be clear and honest about it.
Specifically, it looks like you are primarily using searches on Google books, reading maybe three or four lines before and after the hit, and assuming that it is WP:RS if it looks good enough from that review. It appears that little, if any, research is made on the author's history, credentials and specialties, and sometimes the author's alignment on the issue is taken or assumed to be one way, when it is actually not so. In short, little attention is given to the context of
For example, referring to the note numbers of your edit dated 12 Nov 2011, note 20, titled Islam and Global Dialogue. It provides an overview of the ger toshav, but fails to give any comparison to dhimmis, as suggested by the location of the ref link in the article body. It looks like you assumed a comparison to dhimmis based on the title of the source, but that particular chapter was actually discussing the Jewish attitude towards other religions.
Reference 14, titled Autonomy and Judaism is a bit more subtle. It was used to support the statement it was attached to, but the reliability of the source - with regard to this particular aspect of Jewish law - was questionable. Firstly, the ger toshav is mentioned in only one sentence and never again. Furthermore, it is a short comment on a quote from another author, Cohen, who is attributed with having an agenda to demonstrate the cosmopolitanism of the Torah, rather than giving a description of the ger toshav in particular. Also, rather than understanding ger toshav to refer to a class of Gentiles, Frank apparently believes that it refers to Jews themselves (probably based on a simplistic reading of the verses in Lev. 25, focusing on v.23, without reference to traditional Jewish commentators or the halachic codes on the later verses there). In short, it is a cursory mention of a cursory mention of the ger toshav. My assumptions are borne out by his heavy quoting of Scripture without any of the traditional legal Jewish interpretations - surprisingly, not even Maimonides, whom Frank directly contradicts, usually widely studied in Dr. Frank's specialty of Jewish Philosophy. Probably he was feeling pressed for time, and therefore neglected to research the ger toshav in depth because it was, after all, an ancillary point. Frank's statements at the end of the sentence in question suggest a high likelihood that even his Scriptural citations were taken from Cohen. (Google says the book comes from a meeting of "The Academy for Jewish Philosophy", and further research about the organization suggests that it is an interscholastic group that publishes books and meets roughly once a year to discuss Judaism through the lens of modern philosophy. They have neither a website, nor brick-and-mortar building that I could find. It appears that their primary expertise is philosophy and history rather than halacha, but that impression may be incorrect. Dr. Lenn Goodman, an acquaintance of mine who is well-known for his expertise in all matters Maimonides, seems to be one of their number.)
A discussion of your citations from the Jewish Encyclopedia is above, where similar concerns are raised.
I think that the above were honest mistakes, and made in good faith. Howevery, ideally, a source should:
I do not believe that your research is " in ictu oculi." I can see that you devote much time to it, as evidenced by the sheer number of sources you bring. However, if I may, I humbly suggest that you use the time to produce fewer sources, but research a bit more deeply and acquire a little more background knowledge before writing. This is especially so if a certain topic is rarely-studied and in the domain of an unfamiliar field. As anthropologists say, to know a culture, you have to live in it - and even then one doesn't really know. Myself included. Musashiaharon ( talk) 07:41, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
I did a bit more work on reviewing the sources. Still not finished, but I thought I'd post what I have so far. See also my entry in the re-inclusion section, below.
Note 12: Walzer only mentions "sojourners and tenants" here to show that the earth belongs to G‑d, rather than to man; and only since it happens to be in his prooftext. This is apparent in how he never again mentions ger toshav in any form at all as a specific term in and of itself. He is not describing the halachic status of the ger toshav, but rather addressing the treatment of land acquisition and ownership in Judaism. (This reminds me of the famous, strongly-worded Rashi to Genesis 1:1, but I digress.) The usage here is merely to indicate that "the land and all that is in it belongs to Hashem." It is quite different in meaning from the halachic usage of the term. [ Omit ]
Notes 15-18: This section of the article was about the biblical phrase as understood by another religion. It is not related to the halachic usage of GT. Probably good for WP, just not in this article. Should probably be moved to Strangers in the Bible or a similar article. [ Omit x4 ] Musashiaharon ( talk) 16:09, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
On a brighter note, I believe there are some sources there that meet the reliability requirements of WP:RS.
While reference 20 does not appear linked to the topic of interfaith comparison, reference 19 does in fact suggest it, based on a Karaite POV. This seems to be worthy of inclusion, but in a section devoted to interfaith comparisons at the end of the article, as originally and appropriately placed by IIO (regarding interfaith comparison material, see my comments on Lisa's or IIO's talk page).
Reference 13 also appears worthy of re-inclusion. Musashiaharon ( talk) 07:41, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Note 13 was about the status/existence of geirim toshvim in the time of Moshiach. It seems this author has a few decades of experience, but he phrases his statement as a conjecture. (And a surprising one, to me. Maybe I'll look for other sources about this in Sefer Sheva Mitzvot Hashem and Shaarei Geulah.) However, fits WP:RS. [ Include ] Musashiaharon ( talk) 16:01, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
I appreciate the additions from the Chabad Code and all of the hard work from the editor. However, I see two possible issues here:
1. There are already articles entitled Seven laws of Noah and Noachide. Does all of this material belong here? Wasn't it cut down in one of the other articles?
2. Perhaps there is an undue weight issue here? It is only one opinion, even if the form is unique. I am especially interested regarding circumcision as separate from conversion. Classically - and I am not referring to rabbinic sources specifically - circumcision meant conversion. Also, is it clear that a Gentile not descended from Ishmael is even allowed to circumcise? I can think of a copule of sources that would put this into question.
I look forward to responses. Mzk1 ( talk) 17:37, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
74.70.220.192, did you read the reliable sources cited throughout the article before starting your ridiculous edit warring? No, you didn't. [1] [2] [3] GenoV84 ( talk) 19:03, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Moreover, before accusing me of racism, antisemitism, and all kinds of offensive stuff in a failed attempt of character assassination, you should check the article better next time, because David Novak himself, a renowned Jewish academic and professor of Jewish theology and ethics at the University of Toronto, has denounced the modern Noahide movement by stating that "If Jews are telling Gentiles what to do, it’s a form of imperialism"; [4] the same thought can be found in the other sources mentioned above. Are you trying to say that Novak, Feldman, and Ofri, which are all Jewish and Israeli researchers, [1] [2] [3] [4] are also antisemites? Seriously? GenoV84 ( talk) 23:15, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Attempting to ensure that articles and images will be acceptable to all readers, or will adhere to general social or religious norms, is incompatible with the purposes of an encyclopedia.
GenoV84 (
talk) 01:22, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
Today, nearly 2,000 Filipinos consider themselves members of the ‘‘Children of Noah,’’ a new Judaic faith that is growing into the tens of thousands worldwide as ex-Christians encounter forms of Jewish learning online.
Under the tutelage of Orthodox Jewish rabbis, Filipino ‘‘Noahides,’’ as they call themselves, study Torah, observe the Sabbath, and passionately support a form of messianic Zionism.Filipino Noahidesbelieve that Jews are a racially superior people, with an innate ability to access divinity.According to their rabbi mentors, they are forbidden from performing Jewish rituals and even reading certain Jewish texts.These restrictions have necessitated the creation of new, distinctly Noahide ritual practices and prayers modeled after Jewish ones. Filipino Noahidesare practicing a new faith that also affirms the superiority of Judaism and Jewish biblical right to the Land of Israel, in line with the aims of the growing messianic Third Temple Movement in Jerusalem.[1]
And despite all of this pile of racist and supremacist brainwashing shit perpetrated by Orthodox Jewish and Religious Zionist rabbis from Israel with ties to the Third Temple movement in the Philippines, [1] you still have the nerve to come here, delete the sourced content with reliable references from the article, complain about me for reverting your deliberate disruptive behavior, accuse me of being an antisemite, a racist, and all other kinds of bullshit when the cited academic source clearly speaks for itself, and the aforementioned academic research was conducted by a JEWISH scholar!!! Unbelievable. I have no words to describe your dishonest propaganda and misrepresentation of the cited sources, which you clearly have NOT read. The only thing that I know, and of which I am completely sure of, is that you are not here to improve this encyclopedia. GenoV84 ( talk) 02:12, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
This is because
we only report what is verifiable using secondary reliable sources, giving appropriate weight to the balance of informed opinion. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it.So, if you want to:
- Expose a popular artist as a child molester, or
- Vindicate a convicted murderer you believe to be innocent, or
Explain (what you perceive to be) the truth or reality of a current or historical political, religious, or moral issue, or- Spread the word about a theory/hypothesis/belief/cure-all herb that has been unfairly neglected or suppressed by the scholarly community...
on Wikipedia, you'll have to wait until it's been reported in mainstream media or published in books from reputable publishing houses.
Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought or original research. Wikipedia doesn't lead; we follow. Let reliable sources make the novel connections and statements.Finding neutral ways of presenting them is what we do.
GenoV84 ( talk) 17:47, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
"According to a research paper written by the Jewish academic Rachel Z. Feldman (2018) [1] and an investigative report published on the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, [3] some of the religious Zionist and Orthodox rabbis involved in the modern Noahide movement, which are also affiliated with the Third Temple movement, [1] [3] expound a racist and supremacist ideology which consists in the belief that the Jewish people are God's chosen nation and racially superior to non-Jews, [1] [3] and mentor Noahides because they believe that the Messianic era will begin with the rebuilding of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem to re-institute the Jewish priesthood along with the practice of ritual sacrifices, and the establishment of a Jewish theocracy in Israel, supported by communities of Noahides. [1] [3] David Novak, professor of Jewish theology and ethics at the University of Toronto, has denounced the modern Noahide movement by stating that "If Jews are telling Gentiles what to do, it’s a form of imperialism". [4]
GenoV84 ( talk) 19:16, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
According to anthropologist Rachel Z. Feldman [1], many of the rabbis involved in mentoring Noahides are supporters of the Third Temple Movement who believe that the messianic era begins with the establishment of a Jewish theocratic state in Israel, supported by communities of Noahides worldwide. Feldman describes Noahidism as a "new world religion" that "carv[es] out a place for non-Jews in the messianic Zionist project" and "affirms the superiority of Judaism and the Jewish biblical right to the Land of Israel". She characterizes Noahide ideology in the Philippines and elsewhere in the global south as having a "markedly racial dimension" constructed around "an essential categorical difference between Jews and Noahides". David Novak, professor of Jewish theology and ethics at the University of Toronto, has criticized the modern Noahide movement, stating, "If Jews are telling Gentiles what to do, it’s a form of imperialism." [4] Novak views the Noahide laws not as a religion for non-Jews to structure their lives around, but as a universal ethical code which any civil society or moral individual will reach on their own.
2603:7081:4E0F:920D:8D3E:2051:420C:46C8 ( talk) 21:26, 4 November 2022 (UTC)David Novak, professor of Jewish theology and ethics at the University of Toronto, has criticized the modern Noahide movement, stating, "If Jews are telling Gentiles what to do, it’s a form of imperialism." [4] Novak views the Noahide laws not as a religion for non-Jews to structure their lives around, but as a universal ethical code which any civil society or moral individual will reach on their own.
References
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This article states that according to sources 9,15, and 16 advocates of ger toshav and noahide category are mostly racist and supremacist. This seems like a highly subjective interpretation of these articles which are themselves somewhat suspect. This category in Judaism is somewhat akin to People Of The Book in Islam--race is not a major factor. The dog whistle about Jewish supremacy harkens to Hitler who used exactly the same term. Source nine does not mention race, only that Kahane did not believe Palestinians should be allowed to live in Israel. But, I presume this only referred to non Noahides and applied equally to all other ethnicities. It would be unfair to paint Chabad with Meir Kahane's terrorist brush in any case. The only mention of race in 15 is anecdotally when an tribal elder states that white people rule the world and are therefore lucky. In source 16 it states that chabad has essentially laid down an ethnic hierarchy according to Feldman. But, imho this view is only viable if Jews are thought of as a race and not a convert-accepting world religion, a classic antisemitic trope. Directly prior it states the liberal view of Jewish philosopher Herman Cohen that the Noahide laws contain a general moral outlook that transcends the fate of the Jewish people. Surely some articles exist on Jewish subjects that don't promote the notion of everything related to Judaism as a colonialist project while leaving silent the racism inherent in Christianity and Islam's classical interpretations and respective understandings of their own nonbelievers.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.122.119.215 ( talk • contribs)
Hi Mzk1. I reverted this edit back to "Maimonides". The entire article was 100% WP:OR from primary sources prior to this one token academic source being added, which means that the rest of the articles is "according to some Wikipedian's interpretation of Maimonides/Rashi etc." We don't put "according to __ interpretation" unless there are 2 or more interpretations or unless a source is notably fringe. I'm assuming Marc Kellner here is Menachem Kellner, Professor of Jewish Thought at the University of Haifa, in which case not notably fringe unless proven otherwise. In ictu oculi ( talk) 01:28, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Or alternatively disambiguate better using modern sources. If they are two things, then two articles. They may be. In ictu oculi ( talk) 11:02, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
First of all, I checked the links. It is not vanilla. Unsourced, it's closer to nonsense. As a matter of fact, the term "Ger Toshav" appears explicitly in Lev. 25:47. On the other hand, I don't know if "Ger Tzedek" appears anywhere; certainly not in the Torah. One link refers to the term Ger and mentions both a Ger Tzedek AND a Ger Toshav - links right back to here. The second refers to Football. The third refers to the Christian Bible, and Ger Toshav is a purely rabbinic concept. In short, it is just someone's opinion, and it needs sourcing and balancing. With no source, it needs deletion.
Secondly, something is either sourced (even poorly) or not. Do the generic references without footnotes source the article or do they not. If not, I can remove the unsourced parts if I want, as I retained most of it, I think. (I can give a counter to at least one removed statement.) If it is, I need to put it back, and I don't know if CN applies.
(I don't know where you got the idea that this is all the Rambam. The ET has extensive footnotes. As far as I know, there is no Ger Toshav in historical sources. The ET is also translated; I just don't have access to that version.)
Mzk1 (
talk) 19:50, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
The concepts of Ger Tzedek and Ger Toshav are discussed in the Talmud. Rambam only talks about it because he is a codifier of the Talmud. The fact that it's a rabbinic concept does not make it "just someone's opinion". That's a ridiculous statement. You might as well say that laws requiring separate utensils for meat and dairy is "just someone's opinion". - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 11:26, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
In ictu oculi, You've added a number of edits on the assumption that the halakhic category of ger toshav has something to do with the biblical phrase ger v'toshav. So you have related it to Abraham, who uses that phrase about himself when negotiating with the Hittites for a burial place for Sarah. But this is unsubstantiated (and unsubstantiable). The concept is a rabbinic one. And while it is clearly related to the Noahide laws, it is not something that can just be merged with that article. For example, Milk and meat in Jewish law and Kashrut are separate articles.
The concept of ger toshav is about non-Jews who are permitted, according to halakha, to live in the land of Israel. One of the requirements to be in that category is adherence to the Noahide laws. But it isn't the only one, and the Noahide laws are binding, according to Jewish law, on all human beings. If you'd like to create an article on Strangers in Christianity or something of that sort, feel free to do so. - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 11:38, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
There is no call for Strangers in the Hebrew Bible and Strangers in the Talmud to be separate articles at this point.
I thought I could work with I/O/O, but he appears to have thrown out the entire concept of good faith. He complained that it was unsourced, so I removed the unsourced material, and he put some of it back without sourcing it. For example, the entire article on god-fearers refers to the Christian Bible, and I explicitly stated above that it is from there, yet he put it back as part of the Hebrew Bible without sourcing(!) There is an entire section (Second Temple) that is not germane to the topic, the first Biblical quote refers to a source in a completely different field - OK, I've argued with JayjG about that concept also - and he uses the King James to give a non-literal translation of the "Hebrew Bible" (Maybe the "Hebrew Bible" also says "Kiss the Son"?).
If he has better things to do, maybe he should do them. I have better things to do than clean up after him. For the moment, I won't touch it, in case Lisa wants to do a full revert. Mzk1 ( talk) 21:13, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Is there an article in the Jewish Encyclopedia which refs the "strangers and sojourners" in the Land? In ictu oculi ( talk) 22:27, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
We need to clear this up. The Tanakh part of has been deleted twice now on the basis that the Tanakh ger v-toshav גֵּר־וְתֹושָׁב (Abraham, Leviticus x2) is totally unrelated to the Talmud passages on the "stranger". The article now has in it Rashi and Rabbi Reuven Hammer 2011. Before (cur | prev) 23:24, 26 October 2011 Brewcrewer (talk | contribs) (6,139 bytes) comes back with "SYNTH nonsense. Lisa is correct" and deletes the Tanakh section again. Can we determine this. Are there WP:RS that says the gerim v toshavim in Lev 25:35 is unrelated to the ger toshav in the Talmud. In ictu oculi ( talk) 06:40, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
This is getting ridiculous. First, have a look at Shabbat and Biblical Sabbath. At the top of the first is a note that reads: This article is about the rest day in Judaism. For Sabbath in the Bible, see Biblical Sabbath. The fact that the title of the article is in Hebrew, as IIO has pointed out, indicates that this is about the category of ger toshav in Judaism. If he wants another article, he's free to create one, but right now, he's doing nothing but vandalizing this article. - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 15:52, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Let me add that the term halakhic ger toshav is linked to some uses of the phrase ger v'toshav in the Torah. Not, however, to all of them. And the linkage does not mean that they are 100% the same thing. And unless IIO has a reliable source that says otherwise, he should stop adding irrelevant material to this article. - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 15:55, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
While I see some (very small) justification for IIO's additions, being that they are cited and supported, and relate to the same phrase, the information still seems too tangential and disorganized to merit inclusion in this article. In C., the term "stranger and sojourner" seems at best to be a secondary, ancillary phrase that a pastor might pick up on to build a sermon, but not something deserving an article in its own right. In contrast, halacha treats ger toshav as an entire area of law in its own right, and in such discussions, the term is invariably borrowed from Hebrew and used as is, even in English. Therefore, I propose that other religions' perspectives on this term should only be included if they relate directly to the technical meaning of ger toshav. Other meanings (such as the general feeling of "statelessness" and "wandering") belong in other articles. (And if I was wrong about the significance of "stranger and sojourner" in that meaning, I encourage IIO to make such an article, as he seems more knowledgeable and expert about that usage than I.)
On that note, IIO's citation of Rashi caught my attention. It looked interesting since it linked the term to the phrase in the Torah, but the significance, nature and use of that link was left unexplained, and the entire citation unfortunately disappeared as a casualty of the edit war. Both Rashi and the Talmud are very terse, precise and efficient in language, so the mere fact that Rashi cited Leviticus indicates that he was explaining some point of logic with it. I'd like to look into it myself, and I thank IIO for bringing in that very relevant point. Musashiaharon ( talk) 08:13, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
>Please stop playing games. It is you who is asserting that the Bibical term "ger v-toshav" is identical to the Talmudic term "ger toshav", and are attempting to insert material based on that assertion<
References
FWIW Google Scholar has 416 hits for Talmud + "resident alien" and only 118 for Talmud + toshav. Brings us back to the question of where this material is covered in the Jewish Encyclopedia and other English-language tertiary reference sources. In ictu oculi ( talk) 02:13, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
One introductory note: To say "the Bible is a source of Jewish law", at least a direct source, is quite questionable.
I really do apologize, but this is a bit of a mess. I am concerned that i.i.o, with all good faith, is working in an area he is not familiar with. To give a personal example, I showed my Dad the article on electromigration, a field he has done quite a bit of work in, and he informed me that the article does not cover the sort he worked in. If I were to go to Google books and scholar and create a section based on the results, I think the other editors, who actually understand Chemistry, would be quite upset at me.
I also have a question about methodology. Are you (i.i.o), just typing in phrases in Google books and Scholar and putting in the result, whithout looking a context, reviewing the entire work, seeing if the work / author is significant, differentiating between Biblical interpretation and Jewish Law (quite differnt fields), traditional and counter-traditional sources, academic publishers and otherwise? Or am I misjudging based on the spped with which you find these?
Some specific notes on references:
Here are some issues:
1. The first verse contains get v'toshav although this is not so clear. Then there is a bit about that some translations use two words, when this is what the literal Hebrew does anyway. Then there is a quote giving a verse where both ger toshav AND ger v'toshav appears, but you would not know this from the quote. If you are going to get into this, you will need to either give a literal Hebrew translation, or transliterate the terms and explain the difference (what a vav is). A vav is certainly not always ignored. I'm not sure any of this is necessary.
2. Then, instead of giving the Talmud references first, there is a whole jumble of quotations. I'm not sure what the point of the first part is - the rabbinic term is ger toshav, but the referenced verses in Jewish law have ger toshav, ger v'toshav, and even just ger. On the other hand, the verse by Abraham may or may not be related, but he certainly is not a ger toshav, since the hittites are presumably not versed in Jewish law. I'm not sure we need the whole first part, and I would put the last part under modern views. (I'm not sure what to do with the last bit, or if it is necessary; I would need to know the publisher and the ufull quote first. Is this Reform halacha? It should be labeled as such.)
3. If you want to do a full list of verses used for Ger Toshav in Jewish law, then do it, but in some more orderly manner, preferably from one source. For example, the quote from Aryeh Kaplan (ad. loc. what?) seems to refer to an undisputed reference to ger Toshav as if it is disputed (which I cannot imagine him doing), but I have no context.
4. Please note the Jewish law and traditional Biblical interpretation are not the same thing. The Talmud does not derive on the literal level (p'shat), but the legal (d'rash) level. Even Rashi, who generally quotes a midrash, will used a opinion that is not followed when he is explaining a verse. Ibn Ezra and Ramban (Nachmanides), though completely traditional, go much further. And then traditional interpretation and non-traditional should be separated, if only because the former is relevant to various political and economic issues in modern-day Israel, while the latter is not. Mzk1 ( talk) 22:01, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
There's an evident problem when one user (in this case Lisa) continually deletes WP:RS references which disagree with her own conviction. Among the sources deleted here are several relating rabbinical commentary on Leviticus 25 to Leviticus 25. At the same time as deleting WP:RS which clearly state that "stranger and foreigner" in Leviticus 25 and "stranger and foreigner" in rabbinical commentaries on Leviticus 25 are related Lisa is also refusing to cite sources that rabbinical commentary on Leviticus 25 and Leviticus 25 are separate subjects. What's the appropriate response here? Should the deleted 2/3 of the article be reverted until Lisa provides a source to justify the deletions? In ictu oculi ( talk) 18:50, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
(Copied from my user page, as I think it might be of use here. My main point is that discussing Vav's misses the point.)
Hi Mzk1, can I pick your brain on the grammatical question of hendiadys between ger v toshav in Leviticus, and ger toshav in Talmud and Rashi. Is it the case that Talmud consistently drops the waw in referring to Leviticus ger v toshav or does in the whole scheme of Chazal do ger v toshav and ger toshav with and without the waw conjunctive interplay? And is dropping of the waw more or less common in Aramaic texts than Hebrew texts? Any source on this. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:58, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
I deleted this section because it did not refer to people in the middle positions. It refers to "us" people (Essenes in this context) and complete foreigners (Nochrim in Biblical terminology), so there is no relevance to this article, which, even broadly defined, does not refer to either group. I was not trying to delete sectarian Judaism. Mzk1 ( talk) 23:08, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
First, just as a clarification, my inadvertant restoration of "The term is not used in the Hebrew Bible. However the Hebrew Bible does contain material on conditions for proselytes, converts, God-fearers, Noahide Laws, and regulations for foreigners living in the Land of Israel." was, as Mzk1 suggested, an accident.
User:In ictu oculi (IIO) has been engaging in a series of edits, in which he adds material that is not pertinent to the halakhic concept of ger toshav. Since ger toshav is purely a halakhic concept, which does not exist outside the bounds of halakhic literature, this is a mistake.
IIO has asked (demanded, really) that detailed explanations be given for the deletion of his edits. I'll do so here, piece by piece
Maimonides citation needed uses the term "a stranger-sojourner" in commentary on the term "a stranger-and-sojourner" in Leviticus without the copulative vav (Hebrew וְ "and"). The Hebrew term "a stranger-and-sojourner" ( Hebrew: גר ותושב Septuagint πάροικος καὶ παρεπίδημος), is also a concept found in the Hebrew Bible where it refers to Abraham, Israel and foreigners in Israel, and the concept also occurs in the New Testament and Christian literature, where Abraham's example is applied to life in pagan society.
Since Maimonides doesn't have a commentary on Leviticus, it might be nice to see where the first sentence here comes from. The claim that ger v'toshav in the case of Abraham is related to the concept of a ger toshav is one without basis. IIO seems to be laboring under the misapprehension that every use of that phrase in the Bible is related to every other use of the phrase. This is an interesting view, but it isn't one that IIO has even attempted to establish. He has, rather, made the claim over and over.
The term "stranger and sojourner" (Hebrew ger v-toshav) is first used in the Hebrew Bible attributed to Abraham when purchasing the cave in Mamre used for Sarah's grave. It then occurs in Leviticus 25:23 and 47 where the first of these uses refers to the Israelites themselves as "resident aliens" in God's promised land: [1] [2] [3]
The land shall not be sold permanently, for the land is mine, and you are resident aliens with me (Hebrew כִּֽי־גֵרִים וְתֹושָׁבִים אַתֶּם עִמָּדִֽי )"
— Leviticus 25:23 KJV 1611In the Septuagint and some later translations such as King James Version the term "resident alien" is translated with two nouns, "sojourners and strangers" (in Greek : προσήλυτοι καὶ πάροικοι "you are proselytes and aliens before me") [4]
It's hard to know where to start here. Rabbinic Judaism does not connect the phrase ger v'toshav -- as used in Genesis regarding Abraham -- with the legal category of ger toshav. It does connect the phrase ger v'toshav as used in Leviticus with that legal category, but IIO is making a logical jump without justification. It isn't sufficient for him to find extra-Judaic sources which make a link between the phrase as used in Genesis and the phrase as used in Leviticus. It must be a source within rabbinic literature. Otherwise, he is comparing apples and oranges.
In fact, the two uses of the term in Leviticus 25 aren't even related the way IIO thinks they are. Rabbinic Judaism sees Leviticus 25:47 as referring to a non-Jew living in the Land of Israel. But no source exists in Rabbinic Judaism which sees Leviticus 25:23 as implying that the Children of Israel are living in a land not their own. That verse states quite explicitly that since God owns everything, his ownership of the land trumps Israelite ownership. There is no legal consequence of this, while there is a legal consequence of Leviticus 25:47 where a non-Jew is living in the Land of Israel.
IIO claims that the phrase ger v'toshav is being used in Leviticus as a hendiadys, which means a redundant phrase used for emphasis. But rabbinic Judaism doesn't recognize such a concept. It sees all apparent "redundancies" as conveying additional information. And since the legal concept of ger toshav, which is the subject of this article, only exists in rabbinic Jewish literature, IIO is again mistaken.
In many halakhic writings the term "stranger-sojourner" (Hebrew ger-toshav without the waw-conjunctive) is used rather than "a stranger and sojourner" (Hebrew ger v-toshav, with the waw-conjunctive). Also in some rabbinical literature the obligations to a "a stranger-sojourner" (Hebrew ger toshav) are based upon Leviticus 25:35 "a stranger and sojourner", such as when Rashi connects the "stranger-sojourner" of the Talmud with the "stranger and sojourner" of the Tanakh. [5] Rashi also equates the "stranger" of Deuteronomy 14:21 with the "stranger-sojourner" of Avodah Zarah 20a. [6] Hammer (2011) makes equation of the "stranger and sojourner" in Leviticus to Genesis where Abraham is a "stranger and sojourner." [7] Rabbi David Max Eichhorn (1974) considers that there was a transition of treatment of the ger v-toshav, now know simply as the ger toshav in the more hostile atmosphere of post-exilic Israel. [8] Sifra Behar pereq. 9:2-3 interprets Leviticus on the ger v-toshav who has prospered to conclude that to steal from a ger toshav is less severe than to steal from a fellow Israelite, though this contradicts the teaching of Tosefta Baba Qamma 10:15. [9]
Okay, so let's look again. There are Jewish sources which link the phrase ger v'toshav in Leviticus 25:35 with the halakhic concept ger toshav. Also, there are Jewish sources which link the word ger in Deuteronomy 14:21 with ger toshav. Someone familiar with rabbinic Judaism would be aware that the term ger in the Torah sometimes refers to a ger toshav and sometimes refers to a ger tzedek: a convert to Judaism.
Rabbi David Max Eichhorn was a Reform rabbi. Since the Reform Movement didn't exist until the past couple of centuries, and since it formally rejects the mass of rabbinic scholarship which existed before it came into being, his view is of relevance in determining what modern-day Reform Jews may think of the concept of ger toshav. I have no objection to Eichhorn's position being included in the article, so long as it is placed in a "Modern era interpretations" section.
Since the entire section on Christianity relates Christian concepts to the story of Abraham, which IIO has not managed to link to any of this, it is purely WP:OR. - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 20:12, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
A content fork is the creation of multiple separate articles all treating the same subject. Content forks that are created unintentionally result in redundant or conflicting articles and are to be avoided. On the other hand, as an article grows, editors often create Summary style spin-offs or new, linked article for related material. This is acceptable, and often encouraged, as a way of making articles clearer and easier to manage.
I think I see part of IIO's problem. From what he wrote above, it seems that he considers the Talmud to be a "commentary on the Tanakh". It is not.
It is this mistaken notion, I think, which has IIO thinking that ger v'toshav as used in relation to Abraham in Genesis must mean the same thing that ger v'toshav in Leviticus means. He even posted a WP:RS showing that a modern, non-traditional author claims that the two are related. But while that may be a WP:RS for a claim that the two are related being something that has been proposed by a modern writer, it isn't a WP:RS for the two being related.
Ger v'toshav in Genesis and ger v'toshav in Leviticus are, according to all halakhic sources, as different as Springfield, Missouri and Springfield, Illinois. This is not unusual. As I pointed out earlier, the word ger is viewed in rabbinic thought as sometimes denoting a ger toshav and sometimes denoting a ger tzedek.
I'm tempted to create a Biblical views of the "stranger" article just to give IIO a place to put his edits. That article could include Abraham, the later uses of ger and ger v'toshav and the NT material IIO tried putting in this article.
Again, this entire dispute is all a matter of one editor -- User:In ictu oculi -- trying to turn an article on a Jewish technical concept into something else. Check out the articles on Chesed and Gevurah, just to use two examples. The terms chesed and gevurah are used a lot in the Bible. But those articles aren't about the words. They're about the concepts. Look at the articles Shabbat and Biblical Sabbath. The former is an article about a Jewish concept. The latter is not. Imagine going into the article on Shabbat and adding all sorts of non-Jewish ideas. The article notes at the top:
This article is about the rest day in Judaism. For Sabbath in the Bible, see Biblical Sabbath. For the Talmudic tractate, see Shabbat (Talmud). For other uses, see seventh-day Sabbath and first-day Sabbath.
It isn't a difficult concept. I'm at a loss to explain or understand IIO's insistence on changing this article into something it isn't. - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 15:16, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
References
After having read the above WP policy, and given that the WP:RS deleted from the article, rabbis Eichhorn, Hammer, etc., clearly link these:
Question - what are the WP:RS sources which say these are "unrelated" "not related" "unconnected" and require separate articles? In ictu oculi ( talk) 23:51, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Aryeh Kaplan, Abraham Sutton The handbook of Jewish thought Vol.2 1992 "It is for this reason that a Toshav is considered a "resident alien"; Rashi, Sifethey Chakhamim, ad loc. See, however, Avodah Zarah 20a sv LaGer, where Rashi equates Ger (in Deuteronomy 14:21) with Ger Toshav. "
Tractate Arachin Mesorah Publications 2008 p29a "That is, the law that a Jew is obligated to support and sustain a ger toshav {Leviticus 25:35) is in force only when the Yovel operates (Rashi )."
Rabbi David Max Eichhorn Jewish intermarriages: fact and fiction 1974 p17 "It was because of this hostile atmosphere that the "ger v'toshav," now known simply as "ger toshav," was no longer allowed to become a Jew simply by coming to live within the Jewish community. He now had to become a "ger tsedek"
Steven D. Fraade in Navigating the Anomalous: Non-Jews at the Intersection of Early Rabbinic Law and Narrative (essay also printed in The Other in Jewish Thought and History) 1994 "In striking contrast to this exclusionary exegesis, let us now consider the following inclusionary interpretation of another verse from Leviticus: 2. Sifra Behar pereq 9: 2-3: [" If a resident alien among you has prospered, and your brother, being in straits, comes under his ... "
or e.g.:
"As Yehezkel Kaufmann has so lucidly argued,' the concept of giur — the process of becoming a ger toshav — grew ... in the Midrash ha-Gadol to Leviticus 19:34: "The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as one of your citizens; ..." 20th Century Jewish Religious Thought Arthur A. Cohen, Paul Mendes-Flohr 2009 Page 919
We are not always able to grasp the psychological and emotional nuances of certain Hebrew words, but that in the expression ger toshav there lay no slightest disparagement is proven by the passage in Leviticus (25:23): "And the land ... Hayim Greenberg The inner eye: selected essays Volume 1 1953
"... to liquidating his movable goods, as it is stated (Leviticus 25, 14): "And if thou sell aught unto thy neighbour". ... and not only to a righteous stranger' (ie a proselyte who accepts the whole of Judaism) but also to a ger toshav ..." Studies in Vayikra (Leviticus) Nehama Leibowitz, Aryeh Newman, Nehama Leibowitz - 1980
For example, it is a duty to extend financial aid and support to a ger toshav, as it is written, "and [if] his means fail with you, then you shall uphold him, as a stranger [ger] and settler [toshav] shall he live with you" (Leviticus ..." Alouph Hareven Every sixth Israeli: relations between the Jewish majority and the Arab minority in Israel (The Van Leer Jerusalem Foundation series) 1983
For example, Cohen cites the controversy between Akiba and Ben Azai over whether Leviticus 19:18 (v'ahavta I'rey'acha ... (reya') by virtue of the latter term's connoting in addition the impoverished 'stranger-sojourner' (ger toshav), . Daniel H. Frank Autonomy and Judaism: the individual and the community in Jewish Philosophical Thought - Academy for Jewish Philosophy (U.S.). Meeting - 1992 Page 146
Indeed, Nachmanides, basing himself on Leviticus 25:35, rules that "We are commanded to saleguard the lile of a ger toshav, to save him from evil such that il he is drowning or has been buried under a heap or is sick, we are obliged to .. Shubert Spero Morality, halakha, and the Jewish tradition 1983 Page 131
All these sources connect ger toshav in Leviticus with ger toshav in rabbinic commentary on Leviticus In ictu oculi ( talk) 02:47, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm not arguing that they aren't connected. I'm arguing that neither of them is connected to the use of the phrase ger v'toshav in Genesis regarding Abraham.
Hello. There are two issues you seem to be avoiding. I have corresponded with you enough to assume good faith, and I think it is an issue of perspective.
1. You keep on proving that Ger v'Toshav and Ger Toshav are the same thing. Nobody is arguing that point in regards to legal issues. The question is whether there is any strong non-homiletic link between the use in legal sections, and the use in Genesis and (to a lesser extent) in the explanation of the Sabbatical Year. More to the point, that they are particularly relevant to this legal concept.
2. You seem to be ignoring the existence of Jewish Law as a notable subject, quite apart from Biblical interpretation. The laws of Ger Toshav relate in particular to the relations between Jews and non-Jews in the land of Israel. This effects economic and political issues here, going quite beyond the religious community. The entire controversy of allowing produce of the sabbatical year by selling to a Gentile, which affects several aspects of public life in Israel and goes back to the very beginning of Jewish re-settlement in Israel, impinges on this. ( http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/720988/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/Heter_Mechira; lecturer is perhaps the top Modern Orthodox authority on Jewish law in the US; see his article; location in lecture upon request.) Similarly, the issue is important to Noahides. Biblical interpretation is not particularly important here.
I am not that concerned with the extra stuff you stuck in, but rather that you are drowning the notable stuff with the not-so-notable or non-notable stuff. Also your cites are not filtered; I'm not sure you know the difference between major and obscure authorities - but at the very least you should not bring a source where you can get only a few lines, with an "ibid" that refers to something unknown, and not enough material to get the page number. And. mind you, this is a source I greatly respect, and have quoted in much of my editing - but in this case I have the entire book, not two paragraphs. Mzk1 ( talk) 07:18, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
I asked earlier where this article topic was in the Jewish Encyclopedia. I see now that it is included in two articles ALIEN and mentioned also in PROSELYTE - www.jewishencyclopedia.com/.../12391-proselyte - ".... phrase "yir'e Adonai" denotes either proselytes in general or a certain class ("ger toshab"; see below)." Given that proselyte and ger are the same word, should this article be merged with the main article proselyte or should two articles be preserved separately as the JE? And what would the modern English title of this article be? Aliens in Judaism probably not given modern association of aliens. Resident foreigners in Judaism? It must be possible to express an idea in line with WP:EN when the majority of sources use English. In ictu oculi ( talk) 02:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I hate to point this out, but after all this talk we still have the problem of a user 1. deleting academic sources and 2. forcibly excluding the original use of the term (Leviticus), from which all other tradition follows, from the article. In ictu oculi ( talk) 18:15, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
I have stated specific issues with some of your RS's, and with your methodology, which you have not addressed. I don't blame you for not having time to get into this, but I am stating this in response to your continual claim that your sources are all RS.
Also, you keep on stating that we are following our own POV's. Actually, my POV states that the Bible does refer, in many cases to Ger Toshav. I am trying not to use it. And you still don't address the issue that Jewish Law is its own discipline.
Mzk1 (
talk) 22:01, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
In ictu, I'm in the middle of reviewing the sources you added on 12 Nov. While there is some good material there I'd like to see put back, there are some instances where I am noticing worrisome research patterns similar to those in our most recent exchange here. I do not mean any disrespect, but if I may presume upon our mutual goodwill, I would like to be clear and honest about it.
Specifically, it looks like you are primarily using searches on Google books, reading maybe three or four lines before and after the hit, and assuming that it is WP:RS if it looks good enough from that review. It appears that little, if any, research is made on the author's history, credentials and specialties, and sometimes the author's alignment on the issue is taken or assumed to be one way, when it is actually not so. In short, little attention is given to the context of
For example, referring to the note numbers of your edit dated 12 Nov 2011, note 20, titled Islam and Global Dialogue. It provides an overview of the ger toshav, but fails to give any comparison to dhimmis, as suggested by the location of the ref link in the article body. It looks like you assumed a comparison to dhimmis based on the title of the source, but that particular chapter was actually discussing the Jewish attitude towards other religions.
Reference 14, titled Autonomy and Judaism is a bit more subtle. It was used to support the statement it was attached to, but the reliability of the source - with regard to this particular aspect of Jewish law - was questionable. Firstly, the ger toshav is mentioned in only one sentence and never again. Furthermore, it is a short comment on a quote from another author, Cohen, who is attributed with having an agenda to demonstrate the cosmopolitanism of the Torah, rather than giving a description of the ger toshav in particular. Also, rather than understanding ger toshav to refer to a class of Gentiles, Frank apparently believes that it refers to Jews themselves (probably based on a simplistic reading of the verses in Lev. 25, focusing on v.23, without reference to traditional Jewish commentators or the halachic codes on the later verses there). In short, it is a cursory mention of a cursory mention of the ger toshav. My assumptions are borne out by his heavy quoting of Scripture without any of the traditional legal Jewish interpretations - surprisingly, not even Maimonides, whom Frank directly contradicts, usually widely studied in Dr. Frank's specialty of Jewish Philosophy. Probably he was feeling pressed for time, and therefore neglected to research the ger toshav in depth because it was, after all, an ancillary point. Frank's statements at the end of the sentence in question suggest a high likelihood that even his Scriptural citations were taken from Cohen. (Google says the book comes from a meeting of "The Academy for Jewish Philosophy", and further research about the organization suggests that it is an interscholastic group that publishes books and meets roughly once a year to discuss Judaism through the lens of modern philosophy. They have neither a website, nor brick-and-mortar building that I could find. It appears that their primary expertise is philosophy and history rather than halacha, but that impression may be incorrect. Dr. Lenn Goodman, an acquaintance of mine who is well-known for his expertise in all matters Maimonides, seems to be one of their number.)
A discussion of your citations from the Jewish Encyclopedia is above, where similar concerns are raised.
I think that the above were honest mistakes, and made in good faith. Howevery, ideally, a source should:
I do not believe that your research is " in ictu oculi." I can see that you devote much time to it, as evidenced by the sheer number of sources you bring. However, if I may, I humbly suggest that you use the time to produce fewer sources, but research a bit more deeply and acquire a little more background knowledge before writing. This is especially so if a certain topic is rarely-studied and in the domain of an unfamiliar field. As anthropologists say, to know a culture, you have to live in it - and even then one doesn't really know. Myself included. Musashiaharon ( talk) 07:41, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
I did a bit more work on reviewing the sources. Still not finished, but I thought I'd post what I have so far. See also my entry in the re-inclusion section, below.
Note 12: Walzer only mentions "sojourners and tenants" here to show that the earth belongs to G‑d, rather than to man; and only since it happens to be in his prooftext. This is apparent in how he never again mentions ger toshav in any form at all as a specific term in and of itself. He is not describing the halachic status of the ger toshav, but rather addressing the treatment of land acquisition and ownership in Judaism. (This reminds me of the famous, strongly-worded Rashi to Genesis 1:1, but I digress.) The usage here is merely to indicate that "the land and all that is in it belongs to Hashem." It is quite different in meaning from the halachic usage of the term. [ Omit ]
Notes 15-18: This section of the article was about the biblical phrase as understood by another religion. It is not related to the halachic usage of GT. Probably good for WP, just not in this article. Should probably be moved to Strangers in the Bible or a similar article. [ Omit x4 ] Musashiaharon ( talk) 16:09, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
On a brighter note, I believe there are some sources there that meet the reliability requirements of WP:RS.
While reference 20 does not appear linked to the topic of interfaith comparison, reference 19 does in fact suggest it, based on a Karaite POV. This seems to be worthy of inclusion, but in a section devoted to interfaith comparisons at the end of the article, as originally and appropriately placed by IIO (regarding interfaith comparison material, see my comments on Lisa's or IIO's talk page).
Reference 13 also appears worthy of re-inclusion. Musashiaharon ( talk) 07:41, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Note 13 was about the status/existence of geirim toshvim in the time of Moshiach. It seems this author has a few decades of experience, but he phrases his statement as a conjecture. (And a surprising one, to me. Maybe I'll look for other sources about this in Sefer Sheva Mitzvot Hashem and Shaarei Geulah.) However, fits WP:RS. [ Include ] Musashiaharon ( talk) 16:01, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
I appreciate the additions from the Chabad Code and all of the hard work from the editor. However, I see two possible issues here:
1. There are already articles entitled Seven laws of Noah and Noachide. Does all of this material belong here? Wasn't it cut down in one of the other articles?
2. Perhaps there is an undue weight issue here? It is only one opinion, even if the form is unique. I am especially interested regarding circumcision as separate from conversion. Classically - and I am not referring to rabbinic sources specifically - circumcision meant conversion. Also, is it clear that a Gentile not descended from Ishmael is even allowed to circumcise? I can think of a copule of sources that would put this into question.
I look forward to responses. Mzk1 ( talk) 17:37, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
74.70.220.192, did you read the reliable sources cited throughout the article before starting your ridiculous edit warring? No, you didn't. [1] [2] [3] GenoV84 ( talk) 19:03, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Moreover, before accusing me of racism, antisemitism, and all kinds of offensive stuff in a failed attempt of character assassination, you should check the article better next time, because David Novak himself, a renowned Jewish academic and professor of Jewish theology and ethics at the University of Toronto, has denounced the modern Noahide movement by stating that "If Jews are telling Gentiles what to do, it’s a form of imperialism"; [4] the same thought can be found in the other sources mentioned above. Are you trying to say that Novak, Feldman, and Ofri, which are all Jewish and Israeli researchers, [1] [2] [3] [4] are also antisemites? Seriously? GenoV84 ( talk) 23:15, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Attempting to ensure that articles and images will be acceptable to all readers, or will adhere to general social or religious norms, is incompatible with the purposes of an encyclopedia.
GenoV84 (
talk) 01:22, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
Today, nearly 2,000 Filipinos consider themselves members of the ‘‘Children of Noah,’’ a new Judaic faith that is growing into the tens of thousands worldwide as ex-Christians encounter forms of Jewish learning online.
Under the tutelage of Orthodox Jewish rabbis, Filipino ‘‘Noahides,’’ as they call themselves, study Torah, observe the Sabbath, and passionately support a form of messianic Zionism.Filipino Noahidesbelieve that Jews are a racially superior people, with an innate ability to access divinity.According to their rabbi mentors, they are forbidden from performing Jewish rituals and even reading certain Jewish texts.These restrictions have necessitated the creation of new, distinctly Noahide ritual practices and prayers modeled after Jewish ones. Filipino Noahidesare practicing a new faith that also affirms the superiority of Judaism and Jewish biblical right to the Land of Israel, in line with the aims of the growing messianic Third Temple Movement in Jerusalem.[1]
And despite all of this pile of racist and supremacist brainwashing shit perpetrated by Orthodox Jewish and Religious Zionist rabbis from Israel with ties to the Third Temple movement in the Philippines, [1] you still have the nerve to come here, delete the sourced content with reliable references from the article, complain about me for reverting your deliberate disruptive behavior, accuse me of being an antisemite, a racist, and all other kinds of bullshit when the cited academic source clearly speaks for itself, and the aforementioned academic research was conducted by a JEWISH scholar!!! Unbelievable. I have no words to describe your dishonest propaganda and misrepresentation of the cited sources, which you clearly have NOT read. The only thing that I know, and of which I am completely sure of, is that you are not here to improve this encyclopedia. GenoV84 ( talk) 02:12, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
This is because
we only report what is verifiable using secondary reliable sources, giving appropriate weight to the balance of informed opinion. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it.So, if you want to:
- Expose a popular artist as a child molester, or
- Vindicate a convicted murderer you believe to be innocent, or
Explain (what you perceive to be) the truth or reality of a current or historical political, religious, or moral issue, or- Spread the word about a theory/hypothesis/belief/cure-all herb that has been unfairly neglected or suppressed by the scholarly community...
on Wikipedia, you'll have to wait until it's been reported in mainstream media or published in books from reputable publishing houses.
Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought or original research. Wikipedia doesn't lead; we follow. Let reliable sources make the novel connections and statements.Finding neutral ways of presenting them is what we do.
GenoV84 ( talk) 17:47, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
"According to a research paper written by the Jewish academic Rachel Z. Feldman (2018) [1] and an investigative report published on the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, [3] some of the religious Zionist and Orthodox rabbis involved in the modern Noahide movement, which are also affiliated with the Third Temple movement, [1] [3] expound a racist and supremacist ideology which consists in the belief that the Jewish people are God's chosen nation and racially superior to non-Jews, [1] [3] and mentor Noahides because they believe that the Messianic era will begin with the rebuilding of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem to re-institute the Jewish priesthood along with the practice of ritual sacrifices, and the establishment of a Jewish theocracy in Israel, supported by communities of Noahides. [1] [3] David Novak, professor of Jewish theology and ethics at the University of Toronto, has denounced the modern Noahide movement by stating that "If Jews are telling Gentiles what to do, it’s a form of imperialism". [4]
GenoV84 ( talk) 19:16, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
According to anthropologist Rachel Z. Feldman [1], many of the rabbis involved in mentoring Noahides are supporters of the Third Temple Movement who believe that the messianic era begins with the establishment of a Jewish theocratic state in Israel, supported by communities of Noahides worldwide. Feldman describes Noahidism as a "new world religion" that "carv[es] out a place for non-Jews in the messianic Zionist project" and "affirms the superiority of Judaism and the Jewish biblical right to the Land of Israel". She characterizes Noahide ideology in the Philippines and elsewhere in the global south as having a "markedly racial dimension" constructed around "an essential categorical difference between Jews and Noahides". David Novak, professor of Jewish theology and ethics at the University of Toronto, has criticized the modern Noahide movement, stating, "If Jews are telling Gentiles what to do, it’s a form of imperialism." [4] Novak views the Noahide laws not as a religion for non-Jews to structure their lives around, but as a universal ethical code which any civil society or moral individual will reach on their own.
2603:7081:4E0F:920D:8D3E:2051:420C:46C8 ( talk) 21:26, 4 November 2022 (UTC)David Novak, professor of Jewish theology and ethics at the University of Toronto, has criticized the modern Noahide movement, stating, "If Jews are telling Gentiles what to do, it’s a form of imperialism." [4] Novak views the Noahide laws not as a religion for non-Jews to structure their lives around, but as a universal ethical code which any civil society or moral individual will reach on their own.
References