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As described in MOS:CAPLENGTH, there is an extra incentive for succinctness in the caption of a portrait in an infobox. We are using a portrait painted in 1803 by Gilbert Stuart. The caption was recently changed from "1803 portrait" to "1803 portrait by Gilbert Stuart". I think that the first version was not good, because 1803 was four years after Washington's death, so the reader would naturally wonder how that happened. The second version is even worse, because it is distracting to mention, let alone link to, Gilbert Stuart in the infobox for George Washington. I propose: no caption at all. Bruce leverett ( talk) 15:27, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
It is unseemly that this has become an edit war, and personally embarrassing to me, since I was an earlier participant in the discussion. I see that you have both stopped just short of 3RR, but you have both violated the spirit in the worst way.
Since the infobox illustration has gone without a caption for several months, one might say that the "status quo" is for it to have no caption. Thus the correct procedure woulod have been, after the caption was added and the add was reverted, for the reverting to stop there, and the talk page discussion to begin there, on the basis of attempting to get consensus for a change to the status quo. Just sayin'. I am not a disinterested observer, so I will not try to restore the status quo. The talk page discussion is now well under way. In case it was not already obvious, it would not have been possible to get consensus for this change to the status quo.
As I have stated in Talk:Abigail Adams, I think that if we go by strict adherence to policy, the superseding policy is Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Captions#Credits, which in no uncertain terms discourages the practice of copying credit information up from the illustration's metadata to the article's illustration caption, when the illustration is in the infobox. I would grant that a one-line, four-word caption, while violating this guideline, may not be a big enough deal to have a knock-down, drag-out fight over. But the naked belligerency of trying to make a controversial change without consensus from experienced editors is shocking.
In considering alternative solutions, I note that the article now has (at least) three different Gilbert Stuart portraits of Washington. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the one currently used in the infobox is better, and better-known, than the one currently used in the section on the Presidency, and the one currently used in the section on Historical reputation and legacy. I approve of the idea of mentioning Stuart in the captions of illustrations that are photos of paintings by him, but, in line with the role of infoboxes and the policy cited above, I do not endorse mentioning him when those illustrations are in infoboxes, and in many cases (including this one) it is perfectly acceptable to have no caption at all. Bruce leverett ( talk) 04:34, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
The lead paragraphs in this article are not cited with any sources. Would love to specifically include a source for the sentence "Washington consistently ranks in both popular and scholarly polls as one of the greatest presidents in American history."
If no sources are found, what is the consensus for the next steps? XZealous ( talk) 20:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
George Washington article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
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George Washington has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Discussions on this page often lead to
previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments before commenting, and read through the list of highlighted discussions below before starting a new one:
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
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As described in MOS:CAPLENGTH, there is an extra incentive for succinctness in the caption of a portrait in an infobox. We are using a portrait painted in 1803 by Gilbert Stuart. The caption was recently changed from "1803 portrait" to "1803 portrait by Gilbert Stuart". I think that the first version was not good, because 1803 was four years after Washington's death, so the reader would naturally wonder how that happened. The second version is even worse, because it is distracting to mention, let alone link to, Gilbert Stuart in the infobox for George Washington. I propose: no caption at all. Bruce leverett ( talk) 15:27, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
It is unseemly that this has become an edit war, and personally embarrassing to me, since I was an earlier participant in the discussion. I see that you have both stopped just short of 3RR, but you have both violated the spirit in the worst way.
Since the infobox illustration has gone without a caption for several months, one might say that the "status quo" is for it to have no caption. Thus the correct procedure woulod have been, after the caption was added and the add was reverted, for the reverting to stop there, and the talk page discussion to begin there, on the basis of attempting to get consensus for a change to the status quo. Just sayin'. I am not a disinterested observer, so I will not try to restore the status quo. The talk page discussion is now well under way. In case it was not already obvious, it would not have been possible to get consensus for this change to the status quo.
As I have stated in Talk:Abigail Adams, I think that if we go by strict adherence to policy, the superseding policy is Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Captions#Credits, which in no uncertain terms discourages the practice of copying credit information up from the illustration's metadata to the article's illustration caption, when the illustration is in the infobox. I would grant that a one-line, four-word caption, while violating this guideline, may not be a big enough deal to have a knock-down, drag-out fight over. But the naked belligerency of trying to make a controversial change without consensus from experienced editors is shocking.
In considering alternative solutions, I note that the article now has (at least) three different Gilbert Stuart portraits of Washington. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the one currently used in the infobox is better, and better-known, than the one currently used in the section on the Presidency, and the one currently used in the section on Historical reputation and legacy. I approve of the idea of mentioning Stuart in the captions of illustrations that are photos of paintings by him, but, in line with the role of infoboxes and the policy cited above, I do not endorse mentioning him when those illustrations are in infoboxes, and in many cases (including this one) it is perfectly acceptable to have no caption at all. Bruce leverett ( talk) 04:34, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
The lead paragraphs in this article are not cited with any sources. Would love to specifically include a source for the sentence "Washington consistently ranks in both popular and scholarly polls as one of the greatest presidents in American history."
If no sources are found, what is the consensus for the next steps? XZealous ( talk) 20:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)