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I removed the redirect to the Future history article in the discussion section, since this is now its own article. -- Mosesroth 3 Aug 06
(These notes are primarily for Moses, but also for anyone else who has an interest in this article.)
I reviewed James Gifford's list here:
4.1 - What is the Future History?
And also the list he published in Robert A. Heinlein: A Reader's Companion. I think it makes the most sense to show a single all-inclusive Future History chart, with footnotes to indicate stories that were either (d) dropped, (u) unwritten, or (c) compatible with the Future History, but not canonical.
This is more or less what Future History currently shows under Chronology:
(TPTT = "The Past Through Tomorrow"):
Gifford calls these "Works that fit into the Future History but were never officially included":
I'm a bit confused about the "Early Incarnations" section and the breakdown between Original Future History and Second Future History. This reads like original research. The list we should document on this page is the one shown under Chronology; I've never heard of Heinlein breaking it up into two categories like this.
The "Other Future Histories" section is also questionable. There were sometimes cross-references between stories (the most obvious examples being Gulf->Friday and The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress->The Rolling Stones->The Cat Who Walks Through Walls), but this whole section should be trimmed down to a simple observation that Heinlein sometimes carried plot points between stories. (I would argue that the whole section needs to go; it has nothing to do with the Future History series.)
Arguably, we could include a section here about World As Myth, as those books are an offshoot from the Future History.
-- Jim Douglas 06:41, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Text below was cut from the main article as original research or unrelated to the main article topic.
Heinlein’s Future History was compiled from two earlier future histories by Heinlein, by retconning them together and removing some of the stories and novels and adding in other stories. One, written before World War II, was called Future History, but was different in many respects and it is listed below as "Original Future History". The other, written after World War II, was never given a name, but is called "Second Future History" below.
The stories in the "Original Future History" include a story (marked with an *) that would be retroactively removed when the final Future History was created, another that was sometimes included and sometimes not (marked with an ^), and a third story written at this time, but not included in the "Original Future History" (marked with a **).
After World War II, Heinlein thought space flight was just around the corner, and wished to show the readership how humanity would conquer the Solar system. He started a second future history (called here "Second Future History"), though he never officially gave it a name. The stories marked with an * would be retroactively compiled with the "Original Future History" to create the Future History in its final form.
Heinlein also published other future histories, unrelated to the main Future History.
With the short stories from the "Second Future History" moved to the final Future History, that left the novels, all juveniles, in an unnamed series. The novel Time for the Stars and the short story " Sky Lift" both seem to be related to these novels, because Ortega Torchships are the mode of interplanetary travel in both these stories as well as in the novel Farmer in the Sky, but there is no direct linkage otherwise. In addition, Stranger in a Strange Land appears to be a prequel to Red Planet and The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress appears to be a prequel to The Rolling Stones, but they are otherwise unrelated to the other books in the unnamed series.
Heinlein also wrote other stories and novels, some of them interelated, making series. This includes the novella " Gulf" and the novel Friday which are in the same series and the novels Between Planets and Starman Jones which are in another.
There are some common elements in Friday and The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, and since both stories have connections with other stories, they seem to belong to the same timeline (in the World as Myth concept), the Timeline 3.
Text above this line was cut from the main article as original research or unrelated to the main article topic. -- Jim Douglas (talk) (contribs) 04:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with your cuts and edits, Jim Douglas. I think eliminating the original research is necessary, and the rest of the edits make the article clearer and much better. Hu 05:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it's too cumbersome to have multiple versions in the article. The article needs to be useful to the average reader, not fanboys like us :-) I just came acoss the discussion in the front of Gifford's Reader's Companion myself; I think it would be more useful to cite that rather than Gifford's FAQ page (or maybe we could cite both). Although the old version of the article was too complicated, I also don't think we should misrepresent the real situation, which is that the FH ws a fluid thing, with fluid boundaries. That's not original research -- Gifford's book documents it amply. I'll take a whack later today.-- 24.52.254.62 16:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Why were the dates from most stories cut out of the page? There's no logical reason to keep, for example, 4272 for Time Enough for Love and not add other approximative dates to the other stories. Albmont 16:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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It seems to me that the article should say something about what happens in the Future History. It's been years since I've read THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW, but I remember the main points as: (1) The development of space travel, not by the US government but by a private businessman, Harriman. (2) The overthrow of the US government by a phony religious leader, Nehemiah Scudder. (3) The eventual defeat of Scudder, followed by an attempt to found a Utopian society. CharlesTheBold ( talk) 05:05, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
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Even though there are multiple incarnations of the chart, why is one of them not included in-line with this piece, to show it?
It seems jarringly lacking for it to not be here, as it is (AFAIK) the first of its type. OBloodyHell ( talk) 14:17, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
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I removed the redirect to the Future history article in the discussion section, since this is now its own article. -- Mosesroth 3 Aug 06
(These notes are primarily for Moses, but also for anyone else who has an interest in this article.)
I reviewed James Gifford's list here:
4.1 - What is the Future History?
And also the list he published in Robert A. Heinlein: A Reader's Companion. I think it makes the most sense to show a single all-inclusive Future History chart, with footnotes to indicate stories that were either (d) dropped, (u) unwritten, or (c) compatible with the Future History, but not canonical.
This is more or less what Future History currently shows under Chronology:
(TPTT = "The Past Through Tomorrow"):
Gifford calls these "Works that fit into the Future History but were never officially included":
I'm a bit confused about the "Early Incarnations" section and the breakdown between Original Future History and Second Future History. This reads like original research. The list we should document on this page is the one shown under Chronology; I've never heard of Heinlein breaking it up into two categories like this.
The "Other Future Histories" section is also questionable. There were sometimes cross-references between stories (the most obvious examples being Gulf->Friday and The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress->The Rolling Stones->The Cat Who Walks Through Walls), but this whole section should be trimmed down to a simple observation that Heinlein sometimes carried plot points between stories. (I would argue that the whole section needs to go; it has nothing to do with the Future History series.)
Arguably, we could include a section here about World As Myth, as those books are an offshoot from the Future History.
-- Jim Douglas 06:41, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Text below was cut from the main article as original research or unrelated to the main article topic.
Heinlein’s Future History was compiled from two earlier future histories by Heinlein, by retconning them together and removing some of the stories and novels and adding in other stories. One, written before World War II, was called Future History, but was different in many respects and it is listed below as "Original Future History". The other, written after World War II, was never given a name, but is called "Second Future History" below.
The stories in the "Original Future History" include a story (marked with an *) that would be retroactively removed when the final Future History was created, another that was sometimes included and sometimes not (marked with an ^), and a third story written at this time, but not included in the "Original Future History" (marked with a **).
After World War II, Heinlein thought space flight was just around the corner, and wished to show the readership how humanity would conquer the Solar system. He started a second future history (called here "Second Future History"), though he never officially gave it a name. The stories marked with an * would be retroactively compiled with the "Original Future History" to create the Future History in its final form.
Heinlein also published other future histories, unrelated to the main Future History.
With the short stories from the "Second Future History" moved to the final Future History, that left the novels, all juveniles, in an unnamed series. The novel Time for the Stars and the short story " Sky Lift" both seem to be related to these novels, because Ortega Torchships are the mode of interplanetary travel in both these stories as well as in the novel Farmer in the Sky, but there is no direct linkage otherwise. In addition, Stranger in a Strange Land appears to be a prequel to Red Planet and The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress appears to be a prequel to The Rolling Stones, but they are otherwise unrelated to the other books in the unnamed series.
Heinlein also wrote other stories and novels, some of them interelated, making series. This includes the novella " Gulf" and the novel Friday which are in the same series and the novels Between Planets and Starman Jones which are in another.
There are some common elements in Friday and The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, and since both stories have connections with other stories, they seem to belong to the same timeline (in the World as Myth concept), the Timeline 3.
Text above this line was cut from the main article as original research or unrelated to the main article topic. -- Jim Douglas (talk) (contribs) 04:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with your cuts and edits, Jim Douglas. I think eliminating the original research is necessary, and the rest of the edits make the article clearer and much better. Hu 05:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it's too cumbersome to have multiple versions in the article. The article needs to be useful to the average reader, not fanboys like us :-) I just came acoss the discussion in the front of Gifford's Reader's Companion myself; I think it would be more useful to cite that rather than Gifford's FAQ page (or maybe we could cite both). Although the old version of the article was too complicated, I also don't think we should misrepresent the real situation, which is that the FH ws a fluid thing, with fluid boundaries. That's not original research -- Gifford's book documents it amply. I'll take a whack later today.-- 24.52.254.62 16:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Why were the dates from most stories cut out of the page? There's no logical reason to keep, for example, 4272 for Time Enough for Love and not add other approximative dates to the other stories. Albmont 16:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
The image Image:Pasttomorrow.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --05:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that the article should say something about what happens in the Future History. It's been years since I've read THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW, but I remember the main points as: (1) The development of space travel, not by the US government but by a private businessman, Harriman. (2) The overthrow of the US government by a phony religious leader, Nehemiah Scudder. (3) The eventual defeat of Scudder, followed by an attempt to found a Utopian society. CharlesTheBold ( talk) 05:05, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 22:17, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 07:00, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
Even though there are multiple incarnations of the chart, why is one of them not included in-line with this piece, to show it?
It seems jarringly lacking for it to not be here, as it is (AFAIK) the first of its type. OBloodyHell ( talk) 14:17, 23 January 2023 (UTC)