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- This article is supposed to refer to the folklore of Romania, yet it looks like someone typed a passage on Romanian culture and famous people. Also, this article should have links to more relevant folklore aside from vampires and werewolves.
I was sure that "Folklore of Romania" will be something at least not well writen, but this it's so low, that make me sick. I know that "romanian" Wikipedia it's taken by some very subjectiv groups, but my hope was that at least on english Wikipedia will be better. It's not. The hole article it's made by only one reference! From 1942! From only one point of view! Come on! The romanian ethnology, anthropology and folkloristics have so many groups and opinions! The romanian ethnology and folklorisics have more than tree century of history in itself! From Dimitrie Cantemir and it's Moldavia's description (1715) until today it's a huge amount of work that it's completely ignored by this... "article" (it's unfair to call it this way, but let's be kind). I will not lose more time here. I'v allready faced the badwill of the romanians groups that make romanian Wikipedia an anti-romanian site (my opinion, of course - and others hundereds of readers). I have seen allready that one history book, for an example, it's more there than for or five or ten books on the same subject, even when it are writen by far more prestigious historians, or even when it are academic books. So, I only want to make a little note here, may be somehow, someone, ever, will do something to change the situation. I don't belive that this will ever be true, but I make my duty.
And, btw. "Mioriţa" and "Meşterul Manole" are not folktale but ballad!!! Vampires are not a part of the romanian folklore until the end of XXth century!! The following text it's just fantasy, with no connection with folkloric facts! (text: "Solomonar - See Hultan and Solomonari, which were a group of nobles and wizards made famous more by the families who were members of the society then for their deeds. However, this is mainly do to the secret crusades of Christianity and their attempt to destroy all history and knowledge of these Wizards. Some of these names include Dracula Vlad, Solomon, Despina the Impure, Ty'ere, Ventruszch, Brohmyr, Izhain and Vohc.") There is not "Bătute" as folk dance, but "Bătuta", not "Căluşarii" but "Căluş", not "Tropotiţe" (?!?!) but "Tropotita" etc. "Joc" it's not an romanian folk dance, but the old romanian word for the old traditional folk dance like "Hora", "Căluş" or "Ciuleandra" (the word "dans" e.g. "dance" being used for the new tipes of dance that came from outside of the romanian old folklore from 1700 until now). "Apa Sâmbetei" was an Easter custom, not an "boundless ocean"! (The interpretation of "Apa Sâmbetei" like a underground river was a bookish transfiguration make in it's fantastic literature by Mircea Eliade! Some people think even today that the fantasy literature of Mircea Eliade it's... folklore!) "The Origin of God" section it's really fantastic, or, better, really fantasy, having no connection with the true folkloric facts! The idea that "Dacia was first called Ethiopia, then Arabia, and through a longer process, Bessarabia" it's a lie. (In XIX century one historian has try to make a connection between a romanian dinasty - "Basarab" - and Arabia. The connection prove itself to by entirely wrong. To say this in XXI century it's... beyond words.) "Apa vie" and "Apa moarta" are two tipes of miraculously water, not places!! etc etc etc
P.C. I have a Doctoral degree in Ethnology and you will not see me again on Wikipedia. My idea was too help here, but are too many agressive incompetents. Thank you for experience, but it was awful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.233.103.36 ( talk) 14:13, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- Hi. I just wanted to say I understand your distress with the quality of the article, but I don't really understand if you are accusing somebody specific, or the entire Wikipedia of boing "aggressive incompetents". While I must admit the article is sub-standard and contains few references, it is nevertheless sourced, and you as much as anybody have the right to improve it as you see fit.
- Furthermore, the opinions you have expressed above, even if backed by your degree, are based on speculation and appeal to authority. There is no reference to Mircea Eliade in the article, for one thing, and for another, I hardly think that Descriptio Moldaviae mentions folklore as much as geography, politics and language.
- But you are right in voicing your concern for the sorry state that articles relating to Romania and Romanians are in. There are just too few people interested in these things these days, much less on the internet, and virtually none willing to contribute freely to such a publication. Sadly, Wikipedia is becoming an instrument for the minorities, the conspiracy theorists and the incompetent -- as you put it -- to voice their opinions instead of presenting facts. sfaefaol 13:29, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- Hi. I am not accusing - I just note the facts. On romanian wiki it's not possible to make any change on history, religion or something related, no matter your refferences you give, if it not fit with the belive of the groups that control everything.
- Furthemore, I never said that everyone on Wikipedia it's "incompetent", I said this only about some groups that controls romanian wikipedia.
- About the opinions I have expressed above... it's nothing based on my authority, are just facts well-known in the world of ethnology.
- In Ovidiu Birlea's Istoria folcloristicii romanesti, the moust prestigious book on the subject of romanian folkloristics history you could find the beginin of romanian folkloristics in Descriptio Moldaviae, like I said above. You could also reed the Descriptio Moldavie and found the pages of strictly ethno-folkloric descripsions that make this book one of the first in ethnology and folcloristics history.
- "Apa Sambetei" it's also an well known custom (in Romanian Ethnology, I mean). But even someone don't know this, it's enough to make a Google research to find at least several variants about it - so it's at least not fit on an Encyclopedia to have only one, particular and not argumented, opinion*. The ideea that Apa Sambetei was an ocean under the earth it's not popular, not folkloric, but bookish. The collections of Pamfile, Papadima and others reveals that in Bucovina and some other places Apa Sambetei was seen like a river with many pounds and islands, similarly with Jijia and other roumanians rivers (useful for an image of romanian lands before 1800 it's Dinu Giurescu's Istoria padurii romanesti).
- You could be proud. Your smart comment make me to give you an answer, even I was sure I will not do something like it. Anyway, I will not talk furthermore on subject and I will return to my work. Thank you and hope everything will be fine!
- ---------------
- links easy to find: " http://www.crestinortodox.ro/dictionar-mitologic/87264-apa-sambetei"; " http://www.romanialibera.ro/a152055/pastele-blajinilor.html"; " http://www.basarabeni.net/arhiva-stirilor/traditia-oului-de-pasti/" etc etc I do not necessarly agree with it, but at least it's much more than one point of view! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.34.79.26 ( talk) 09:03, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
First and foremost, Manole was not a "craftsman" and apparently the title of that legend is translated into english word for word without any deep thinking done. He was a builder / arhitect and that is what the whole tale is about. To quote from the legend "we was better than all the other 9, nine of the best" ("Noua mesteri mari / cu Manoli zece / care-i si intrece") I propose calling the tale just "Manole" in English to avoid any possible confusion. Also, I fail to see any major refferences to Romanian traditional music (wheras in other similar articles this section is covered well) To end with, I believe that the whole section about Romanian genesis legends should be broken off into its own article, because this article should be more general about folklore, not so specific. I see this article being more of a page filled with links to the relevant articles. I myself am a little bit busy these next few weeks/months, but if the articles remains the same, I guess I'll end up rewriting it (and I'm not to very confident in my article writing skills). 92.81.146.148 ( talk) 09:46, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- I am Romanian living in Canada for 16+ years. Word "mesterul" translates to artisan or master but if you want to keep the meaning of the original Romanian word craftsmen is the more appropriate word. However you could use "Manole the Artisan" or "Manole the Master Builder" if you want to be more accurate but while it will accurately portray what Manole was it will not capture the true meaning of the romanian word "mester".
This article should be rewritten, it sounds like idiotic trash, it lacks any scientific approach and it says nothing real/important about Romanian folklore.
words cannot describe my amazement at the undocumented pop fluff that i read in the article. matter of fact i created a wiki account just because of this...
Alexandruromania ( talk) 10:00, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- Feel free to modify this to correct any issues you see — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Trollworkout (
talk •
contribs) 03:42, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
- On second thought I tried doing just that and all my contributions got rejected — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trollworkout ( talk • contribs) 23:30, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
I added a new section Personifications because in Romanian folklore is an incredibly common feature. An example of personification is Death in western folklore sometimes presented as a skeleton with sickle and black robes but in Romanian folklore everything gets personified. For example wind = valve , tuesday = Martolea which is a demon type of guy associated with Tuesday night , Sunrise = zori de zi a personification or sunrise yeah how ridiculous is that. But is a very common feature among all folktales. I can speak Romanian by the way and was born there and I like to study folklore. I think the reason for personifactions are because of the quick romanization/christianization of Dacian peoples (dacians were not one cohesive group of people there were many different tribes) which is probably how Romania got homogenized and united as one people. I won't add this in the article because is my own personal belief. What is for sure is a lot of these personifications relate back to pre-christian beliefs.. Trollworkout ( talk) 08:37, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
I have decided to give up on modifying this site beacuse I do not have time to spend adding valid entries only to be removed by admins. This article is very terribly written and I don't even know how so much bad knowledge got approved. My changes got rejected and reversed as "Reverting to last GOOD version". There's no good version. This article is very low quality. I tried to fix it but you don't want it fixed. Good luck figuring out your power struggle I don't have time for Byzantinism. All the best Trollworkout ( talk) 23:32, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
| This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Folklore of Romania article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
| Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
|
| This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
- This article is supposed to refer to the folklore of Romania, yet it looks like someone typed a passage on Romanian culture and famous people. Also, this article should have links to more relevant folklore aside from vampires and werewolves.
I was sure that "Folklore of Romania" will be something at least not well writen, but this it's so low, that make me sick. I know that "romanian" Wikipedia it's taken by some very subjectiv groups, but my hope was that at least on english Wikipedia will be better. It's not. The hole article it's made by only one reference! From 1942! From only one point of view! Come on! The romanian ethnology, anthropology and folkloristics have so many groups and opinions! The romanian ethnology and folklorisics have more than tree century of history in itself! From Dimitrie Cantemir and it's Moldavia's description (1715) until today it's a huge amount of work that it's completely ignored by this... "article" (it's unfair to call it this way, but let's be kind). I will not lose more time here. I'v allready faced the badwill of the romanians groups that make romanian Wikipedia an anti-romanian site (my opinion, of course - and others hundereds of readers). I have seen allready that one history book, for an example, it's more there than for or five or ten books on the same subject, even when it are writen by far more prestigious historians, or even when it are academic books. So, I only want to make a little note here, may be somehow, someone, ever, will do something to change the situation. I don't belive that this will ever be true, but I make my duty.
And, btw. "Mioriţa" and "Meşterul Manole" are not folktale but ballad!!! Vampires are not a part of the romanian folklore until the end of XXth century!! The following text it's just fantasy, with no connection with folkloric facts! (text: "Solomonar - See Hultan and Solomonari, which were a group of nobles and wizards made famous more by the families who were members of the society then for their deeds. However, this is mainly do to the secret crusades of Christianity and their attempt to destroy all history and knowledge of these Wizards. Some of these names include Dracula Vlad, Solomon, Despina the Impure, Ty'ere, Ventruszch, Brohmyr, Izhain and Vohc.") There is not "Bătute" as folk dance, but "Bătuta", not "Căluşarii" but "Căluş", not "Tropotiţe" (?!?!) but "Tropotita" etc. "Joc" it's not an romanian folk dance, but the old romanian word for the old traditional folk dance like "Hora", "Căluş" or "Ciuleandra" (the word "dans" e.g. "dance" being used for the new tipes of dance that came from outside of the romanian old folklore from 1700 until now). "Apa Sâmbetei" was an Easter custom, not an "boundless ocean"! (The interpretation of "Apa Sâmbetei" like a underground river was a bookish transfiguration make in it's fantastic literature by Mircea Eliade! Some people think even today that the fantasy literature of Mircea Eliade it's... folklore!) "The Origin of God" section it's really fantastic, or, better, really fantasy, having no connection with the true folkloric facts! The idea that "Dacia was first called Ethiopia, then Arabia, and through a longer process, Bessarabia" it's a lie. (In XIX century one historian has try to make a connection between a romanian dinasty - "Basarab" - and Arabia. The connection prove itself to by entirely wrong. To say this in XXI century it's... beyond words.) "Apa vie" and "Apa moarta" are two tipes of miraculously water, not places!! etc etc etc
P.C. I have a Doctoral degree in Ethnology and you will not see me again on Wikipedia. My idea was too help here, but are too many agressive incompetents. Thank you for experience, but it was awful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.233.103.36 ( talk) 14:13, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- Hi. I just wanted to say I understand your distress with the quality of the article, but I don't really understand if you are accusing somebody specific, or the entire Wikipedia of boing "aggressive incompetents". While I must admit the article is sub-standard and contains few references, it is nevertheless sourced, and you as much as anybody have the right to improve it as you see fit.
- Furthermore, the opinions you have expressed above, even if backed by your degree, are based on speculation and appeal to authority. There is no reference to Mircea Eliade in the article, for one thing, and for another, I hardly think that Descriptio Moldaviae mentions folklore as much as geography, politics and language.
- But you are right in voicing your concern for the sorry state that articles relating to Romania and Romanians are in. There are just too few people interested in these things these days, much less on the internet, and virtually none willing to contribute freely to such a publication. Sadly, Wikipedia is becoming an instrument for the minorities, the conspiracy theorists and the incompetent -- as you put it -- to voice their opinions instead of presenting facts. sfaefaol 13:29, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- Hi. I am not accusing - I just note the facts. On romanian wiki it's not possible to make any change on history, religion or something related, no matter your refferences you give, if it not fit with the belive of the groups that control everything.
- Furthemore, I never said that everyone on Wikipedia it's "incompetent", I said this only about some groups that controls romanian wikipedia.
- About the opinions I have expressed above... it's nothing based on my authority, are just facts well-known in the world of ethnology.
- In Ovidiu Birlea's Istoria folcloristicii romanesti, the moust prestigious book on the subject of romanian folkloristics history you could find the beginin of romanian folkloristics in Descriptio Moldaviae, like I said above. You could also reed the Descriptio Moldavie and found the pages of strictly ethno-folkloric descripsions that make this book one of the first in ethnology and folcloristics history.
- "Apa Sambetei" it's also an well known custom (in Romanian Ethnology, I mean). But even someone don't know this, it's enough to make a Google research to find at least several variants about it - so it's at least not fit on an Encyclopedia to have only one, particular and not argumented, opinion*. The ideea that Apa Sambetei was an ocean under the earth it's not popular, not folkloric, but bookish. The collections of Pamfile, Papadima and others reveals that in Bucovina and some other places Apa Sambetei was seen like a river with many pounds and islands, similarly with Jijia and other roumanians rivers (useful for an image of romanian lands before 1800 it's Dinu Giurescu's Istoria padurii romanesti).
- You could be proud. Your smart comment make me to give you an answer, even I was sure I will not do something like it. Anyway, I will not talk furthermore on subject and I will return to my work. Thank you and hope everything will be fine!
- ---------------
- links easy to find: " http://www.crestinortodox.ro/dictionar-mitologic/87264-apa-sambetei"; " http://www.romanialibera.ro/a152055/pastele-blajinilor.html"; " http://www.basarabeni.net/arhiva-stirilor/traditia-oului-de-pasti/" etc etc I do not necessarly agree with it, but at least it's much more than one point of view! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.34.79.26 ( talk) 09:03, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
First and foremost, Manole was not a "craftsman" and apparently the title of that legend is translated into english word for word without any deep thinking done. He was a builder / arhitect and that is what the whole tale is about. To quote from the legend "we was better than all the other 9, nine of the best" ("Noua mesteri mari / cu Manoli zece / care-i si intrece") I propose calling the tale just "Manole" in English to avoid any possible confusion. Also, I fail to see any major refferences to Romanian traditional music (wheras in other similar articles this section is covered well) To end with, I believe that the whole section about Romanian genesis legends should be broken off into its own article, because this article should be more general about folklore, not so specific. I see this article being more of a page filled with links to the relevant articles. I myself am a little bit busy these next few weeks/months, but if the articles remains the same, I guess I'll end up rewriting it (and I'm not to very confident in my article writing skills). 92.81.146.148 ( talk) 09:46, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- I am Romanian living in Canada for 16+ years. Word "mesterul" translates to artisan or master but if you want to keep the meaning of the original Romanian word craftsmen is the more appropriate word. However you could use "Manole the Artisan" or "Manole the Master Builder" if you want to be more accurate but while it will accurately portray what Manole was it will not capture the true meaning of the romanian word "mester".
This article should be rewritten, it sounds like idiotic trash, it lacks any scientific approach and it says nothing real/important about Romanian folklore.
words cannot describe my amazement at the undocumented pop fluff that i read in the article. matter of fact i created a wiki account just because of this...
Alexandruromania ( talk) 10:00, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- Feel free to modify this to correct any issues you see — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Trollworkout (
talk •
contribs) 03:42, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
- On second thought I tried doing just that and all my contributions got rejected — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trollworkout ( talk • contribs) 23:30, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
I added a new section Personifications because in Romanian folklore is an incredibly common feature. An example of personification is Death in western folklore sometimes presented as a skeleton with sickle and black robes but in Romanian folklore everything gets personified. For example wind = valve , tuesday = Martolea which is a demon type of guy associated with Tuesday night , Sunrise = zori de zi a personification or sunrise yeah how ridiculous is that. But is a very common feature among all folktales. I can speak Romanian by the way and was born there and I like to study folklore. I think the reason for personifactions are because of the quick romanization/christianization of Dacian peoples (dacians were not one cohesive group of people there were many different tribes) which is probably how Romania got homogenized and united as one people. I won't add this in the article because is my own personal belief. What is for sure is a lot of these personifications relate back to pre-christian beliefs.. Trollworkout ( talk) 08:37, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
I have decided to give up on modifying this site beacuse I do not have time to spend adding valid entries only to be removed by admins. This article is very terribly written and I don't even know how so much bad knowledge got approved. My changes got rejected and reversed as "Reverting to last GOOD version". There's no good version. This article is very low quality. I tried to fix it but you don't want it fixed. Good luck figuring out your power struggle I don't have time for Byzantinism. All the best Trollworkout ( talk) 23:32, 6 October 2017 (UTC)