This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Flag of Syria article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 1 month

WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS The article Flag of Syria, along with other pages relating to the Syrian Civil War and ISIL, is designated by the community as a contentious topic. The current restrictions are: Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period) Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned. Remedy instructions and exemptions Enforcement procedures: Violations of any restrictions (excluding 1RR/reverting violations) and other conduct issues should be reported to the administrators' incidents noticeboard. Violations of revert restrictions should be reported to the administrators' edit warring noticeboard. Editors who violate any listed restrictions may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense. An editor must be aware before they can be sanctioned. With respect to any reverting restrictions: Edits made solely to enforce any clearly established consensus are exempt from all edit-warring restrictions. In order to be considered "clearly established" the consensus must be proven by prior talk-page discussion. Edits made which remove or otherwise change any material placed by clearly established consensus, without first obtaining consensus to do so, may be treated in the same manner as clear vandalism. Clear vandalism of any origin may be reverted without restriction. Reverts of edits made by anonymous (IP) editors that are not vandalism are exempt from the 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring. If you are in doubt, contact an administrator for assistance. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. Remember: When in doubt, don't revert!

This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Guild of Copy Editors This article was copy edited by Freebirdthemonk, a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, on 1 January 2013.Guild of Copy EditorsWikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsTemplate:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsGuild of Copy Editors articles Heraldry and vexillology Flag of Syria is within the scope of the Heraldry and vexillology WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of heraldry and vexillology. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.Heraldry and vexillologyWikipedia:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillologyTemplate:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillologyheraldry and vexillology articles Syria Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Syria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Syria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SyriaWikipedia:WikiProject SyriaTemplate:WikiProject SyriaSyria articles Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Arab world Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Arab world on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Arab worldWikipedia:WikiProject Arab worldTemplate:WikiProject Arab worldArab world articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Current lead equals both the Assad government and SIC/SNG. Although I reverted recent changes in this regard (well, rather obvious pro-Assad propaganda), I do not feel the current wording adequately describes situation as of now. The regime controls most of Syrian territory and all major cities (except Idlib and Raqqa), the other government is hardly in control of any territory (in comparison to Kurds, or HTS, which proclaimed its own Syrian Salvation Government). Current consensus was really hard to achieve, so any change to it requires thorough discussion. Your opinion? Pavlor ( talk) 06:21, 1 March 2019 (UTC) reply

"The other government ..." What other government? Bougatsa42 ( talk) 06:42, 15 June 2021 (UTC) reply

This is NOT the flag of Syria. It is a flag used by a variety of losely organized rebel groups with different agendas. It is not by any means the official flag of the country in any way. It is as much the official flag of Syria as the Estelada blava (in no official usage) is the flag of Catalonia.-- PlanespotterA320 ( talk) 18:47, 12 January 2020 (UTC) reply

The article is protected now, so we have enough time to discuss its structure (two governments vs one) and content. Opinion of all users is welcome (namely those who participated in similar discussions in the last 2 years: BrendonTheWizard, Bobfrombrockley, Thespoondragon, AlAboud83, Kashmiri, Attar-Aram syria, AnonMoos, Claíomh Solais, 3bdulelah, Ignostic199, Greyshark09, Dnmppolitico). Pavlor ( talk) 07:03, 14 January 2020 (UTC) You missed other editors, NightsideAEB EllsworthSK reply

PlanespotterA320 -- Assad still doesn't have full control over all of Syria, so it depends more on international diplomatic recognition than on "who's winning the war"... AnonMoos ( talk) 02:06, 16 January 2020 (UTC) reply

Thats not 100 % true. Some governments are rolling back, and recognizing Assad. Also political interests are not facts, Syrian Government is the de facto ruler of Syria. Syrian rebels( Opp. ) are an umbrella recognized by anti Assad Countries, those groups are loosely tight together with different agendas, SDF, Jihadist and Rebels. "Moderate rebels" dont control a single Governorate. Mr.User200 ( talk) 18:34, 5 February 2020 (UTC) reply

It should be noted that of the remaining Rebel territory, which is maybe 10% of Syrian territory and only contains a single city, is territorially split in half between two opposition groups, with the one that actually controls the aforementioned city not even using the Independence flag but a different design with the Shahada replacing the flag further reducing the Rebel Flag's officual usage to roughly 5% of the territory of Syria. (Remember Rojava officially and explicitly recognizes the de jure Sovereignty of Assad's Government over their territory)

Secondly the Syrian opposition group with the recognition that lends the flag actual official status, during its entire existence, has been a Government-in-Exile based in Turkey with no actual presence in Syria, only various bands of militias pledging allegiance to it. Thegunkid ( talk) 06:10, 7 March 2020 (UTC) reply

Seems like current consensus is in favor of changing the flag to the government flag in the top-of-the-page infobox. ANY last minute objections?-- PlanespotterA320 ( talk) 16:41, 7 March 2020 (UTC) reply

The end is probably near, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the article should be changed right this minute. As I've said before, it's more dependent on the diplomatic situation, rather than immediately following from the military details of the moment... AnonMoos ( talk) 20:36, 7 March 2020 (UTC) reply

exactly,until the diplomatic situation changes,no change to the consensus. Alhanuty ( talk) 00:56, 9 March 2020 (UTC) reply

Agree with AnonMoos and Alhanuty. Premature. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 13:25, 9 March 2020 (UTC) reply

SAA controls most of the country. The rebel flag is not de-facto federal gov. Unless there is a 2020 consensus for putting the rebel flag on equal footing, there is no reason to use an old version. Only ~20 countries have any kind of formal or informal relations with the so-called failed "transitional" government. SAA is recognized as legit gov by far more countries. All other language Wikipedia articles have the state flag at the top, demonstrating a huge consensus already. Would we put the confederate flag on equal footing with the US flag if Wikipedia existed in 1864? Goodness no. Just because a few governments continue to oppose the Syrian government doesn't mean it isn't the Syrian government - in other news, a few governments don't recognize a slew of governments - US, Armenia, Israel, etc, but we don't pull this nonsense in the articles for those flags. Frankly Syrian rebel flag should get a separate article altogether.-- PlanespotterA320 ( talk) 15:14, 12 November 2020 (UTC) reply

• @ Kashmiri: Here on the talkpage, you could hardly call it a consensus for keeping the current version. Plus consider the fact that many other people who tried to change it didn't post on the talkpage - certainly a good form of soft consensus.-- PlanespotterA320 ( talk) 15:16, 12 November 2020 (UTC) reply

As I said just now on your user talk page, removing the rebel flag should not follow immediately and directly from military victories and defeats, but rather from changes in the diplomatic situation (as discussed previously on this page). AnonMoos ( talk) 15:20, 12 November 2020 (UTC) reply

And as I've said before, the diplomatic situation clearly favors use of the SAA flag (since most countries recognize SAA) over the rebel flag. 100% recognition of a government has never been a condition for a flag being in the top of an article page about a country's flag.-- PlanespotterA320 ( talk) 15:23, 12 November 2020 (UTC) reply

I support the maintenence of the current consensus, as I don't see that there has been a dramatic change in the last few months. There are two strong arguments above. First, territorial control. To quote one analyst, "First, of Syria's pre-war population of 23 million, there are 6.6 million refugees outside the country (of whom 3.6 million are in neighbouring Turkey), over a quarter of the population, plus an equal number internally displaced (IDPs) within Syria. Then there are over 5 million people living in the northwest (Idlib and northern Aleppo regions) still outside of Assad's control, under what remains of various rebel groups, mostly under Turkish influence, and this includes over 1.7 million internally displaced from elsewhere in Syria. Then there are another 3 million people, including 700,000 internally displaced, in the northeast, under the control of the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF)... Therefore, some 14.5 million people - 63 percent of Syria's pre-war population - are outside regime control." From the remaining 37%, we might also subtract the 100,000+ incarcerated opposition members and the 500,000+ war dead on all sides. If in 1864 the Confederacy had not surrendered and the Union only had sovereignty over a third of the population then yes we might have kept two flags on the page. The second argument relates to international recognition, and the previous position that a more than trivial number of states and intergovernmental bodies did not recognise the Damascus government. It was argued above that this is becoming less true, and I wonder if we can look at that carefully and identify how many still do not recognise it. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 10:27, 13 November 2020 (UTC) (PS the article Foreign relations of Syria is a good starting place for looking at international recognition, although it also needs some updating. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 10:34, 13 November 2020 (UTC)) reply

Such numbers would require a really strong source... and the Confederacy example is inherently flawed (Confederacy never claimed to be an alternate US government). That being said I´m against any change without new consensus which should prevent tiresome edit-warring. I fear nobody here is interested in searching for POV of reliable sources. Is there even any mainstream media organization that talks/writes about opposition government as the government of Syria, or uses opposition flag as the flag of Syria? CNN, BBC or ARD certainly aren´t puppets of the Assad regime, yet their reporting uses "Syrian government" (or syrische Regierurng in case of ARD) to describe the Assad government. Even governments recognizing the opposition government evidently ignore it and its flag on their webpages (eg. US State departement: [1]; CIA World Fact Book: [2] etc.). Of course we can pretend there are two governments and two flags of equal importance, but such consensus is no longer supported by reliable sources. Pavlor ( talk) 11:10, 13 November 2020 (UTC) reply

Pavlor -- As was discussed at length on this page in 2018 (now in the archives), in the normal workings of diplomacy, countries don't ordinarily directly "recognize flags". Rather, they recognize governments, and the flag follows along from the corresponding government. AnonMoos ( talk) 00:53, 15 November 2020 (UTC) reply

But this article is about the flag of Syria. And either way, a vast majority governments do not recognize the rebels or anyone using the rebel flag as the legit gov of Syria.-- PlanespotterA320 ( talk) 00:58, 15 November 2020 (UTC) reply

• This is not an article titled "Official flag of Syria" or "Flag of the recognised government of Syria". This article is about a topic called flag of Syria. If there is currently more than one flag used for Syria, all should be included in precisely this article. See Flag of Belarus, where the variant used by the political opposition is included in the infobox, or Flag of China where the article contains several flags, including ones used by non-recognised opposition groups. Also Flag of Gibraltar, Flag of Australia, etc. — kashmīrī  ^TALK 02:40, 15 November 2020 (UTC) reply

• All of those examples support the opposite argument, though: the article should begin with an infobox of the flag of Syria. The Flag of Belarus article starts with the flag of Belarus, and proceeds to show the alternate flag, which was historically used and remains a widely recognizable symbol today due to its popularity among protesters. The Flag of China article only shows the Flag of China in the infobox, while the Flag of Taiwan article is a separate article, so I don't exactly know why you invoked it. The Flag of Gibraltar article also includes a Union Jack because it is official. The Flag of Australia article simply shows official variants used for military purposes, so I'm especially confused as to why you invoked that one. At this point, I honestly think it's just bizarre that we still present this article as if there is no "flag of Syria." We can still have a subsection about the opposition flag, but to have the article's lede have no infobox and to have both the flag of Syria and the flag of the Turkish-backed Free Syrian Army displayed as equal subparagraphs is very misleading. This is a WP:FALSEBALANCE. The above replies, which argue for the status quo because the Syrian Civil War is ongoing and the Syrian government still doesn't control all of its claimed territory, are also very strange to me. By that reasoning, should Syria redirect to an article about the civil war rather than the article about the nation-state because there is no one "Syria"? It's just so odd to me to see so many editors who I would assume are quite experienced on the encyclopedia making arguments that obviously wouldn't be permissible on just about any other article, and for good reason.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:17, 18 December 2020 (UTC) reply

Maybe we should add the nazi flag to the "Flag of germany" article on equal footing as the current flag of germany. after all, surely there are some nazi sympathizers somewhere in the world (who dont even control any land in germany) who think that should be the real flag! 2803:9800:9504:7B33:4B6C:CC1A:D8EF:BD67 ( talk) 01:28, 5 May 2023 (UTC) reply

People think that the 3 star flag is the real flag of syria no its not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.165.111.96 ( talk) 07:23, 5 September 2022 (UTC) reply

the content regarding the color description should contain the current flag, not the previous flag, the brightness of the red, white, green, black colors. Masrauf ( talk) 05:24, 25 November 2021 (UTC) reply

Currently there are two colour tables, each preceded by a list of flags for which appropriate. It would be visually simpler for there to be only one table, = the first table + gold, with a sentence “Color approximations for the various flags discussed on this page.” Is there a proper reason not to do this? JDAWiseman ( talk) 21:45, 3 December 2023 (UTC) reply

Edit: and the current tables use American spelling, seemingly wrongly for this article, so the proposed sentence should be “Colour approximations for the various flags discussed on this page.” JDAWiseman ( talk) 21:46, 3 December 2023 (UTC) reply