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If the number of feminist women who seek superiority over men is anywhere near equal to (or more than) the number who seek equality with men, please source it. I imagine it's possible in nations that are especially repressive of feminists, as that might result in reformers being repressed but radicals remaining (because reformers would seek to negotiate and then they'd be co-opted or arrested while radicals would likely build their base, theorize, or stay low), but in that case I wonder whether much would be published by them and whether in English. Where repression is very onerous, radicals probably support other nonfeminist radicals and feminist moderates, and that too will likely mean less publication of analyses we can cite as sources. In the U.S., among feminists, they are a minority, composed of a few notable feminists but only one small and short-lived organization. They're probably a minority in every nation. Since "some" could reasonably mean anywhere from a quarter to three quarters, and maybe anywhere from a tenth to nine tenths, "a minority" is probably more accurate.
I think the style guideline used to specify that sourcing was to go into the body of the article, the lead summarizing the body without references. If that's how it used to be, it isn't that way anymore, so I've now put citations into the lead and kept them in the body as well.
More sourcing and content can be added anytime.
Thanks for bringing this up. Nick Levinson ( talk) 18:51, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Feminism seems to define 'equal' rights being the inherent aim. This does much the same but further text is telling:
If "most", rather than all, feminists support equality, that would mean that some feminists do not support equality. If it is possible for a feminist to not support equality, this would mean that 'equal rights' is not an inherent aspect of feminism. We should have an article about the comparative issues of equality and feminism, but based on this, not treat equality as an inherent aspect of it's aims. Ranze ( talk) 10:08, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
If we take the stance that the descriptions of movements should come from proponents and not supporters, how would that lead to the definition of things like nazism? We should look at what efforts are actually doing and if those actions conform to egalitarian concepts or to female support concepts. Which predominates? Has 'equality' as a stated goal actually limited feminism-related actions or led them to put forth similar efforts towards males?
What sources should we consider authoritative here? Can we give examples of evidence-based sources and not simply polite definitions? Feminism does not exclude those feminists who promote non-egalitarian ideas. See for example Radical_feminism#Theory_and_ideology which says "Some radical feminists called for women to govern women and men"
Calling for an exclusive gender to rule the other is not an example of egalitarianism. This is classed under feminism, so feminism can't be about egalitarianism if it includes that. If we take the stance that egalitarianism is an inseparable aspect, we can not call radicals who promote exclusive female rulership as 'feminists'. Yet they are called this, and that makes sense, because non-egalitarianism doesn't exclude a concept or person from feminism. Ranze ( talk) 05:47, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
A recent edit deleted a source citation. The source says, partly about and partly from Dworkin, "What Andrea Dworkin wants ... is this: she wants women to have their own country.... 'The last chapter [of Scapegoat] - that's my favourite chapter,' she said, regarding the section of her book proposing a nation state for women .... [W]e began to talk about this women's country.... I [Dworkin] repudiate all nationalism except my own and reject the dominance of all men except those I love.... I have become certain of one thing: that women cannot be free of male dominance without challenging the men of one's own ethnic group and destroying their authority. This is a willed betrayal, as any assault on male dominance must be." That is not limited to women being responsible for themselves. It is about women governing a country. And since she talks (in the same source) also about a right of women to execute men who are rapists, she is not talking about excluding men so as to form a women-only nation. The source (with another) supports what is in the article: "a minority of feminists have argued for superiority of women over men as a form of government." If a close rephrasing would help, please do it or indicate. Otherwise, I propose to restore the citation. I'll wait a week for any response.
I did not and do not try to summarize her position with respect to Jews.
Nick Levinson ( talk) 21:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
A recent edit replaced a quotation with a statement on the ground of "actually reflect[ing]" the source. The source's first sentence appears to contradict the new paraphrase; if it does not, that's because of other content on another page(s), for which a page citation would probably be necessary. Radical feminism generally posits the opposite of the new paraphrase or combines both views. The prior quotation was from a critique of "formal equality with men" under liberal feminism typified by the pro-mainstreaming NOW position and the critique said that "the fundamental problem ... [was] women's subordination within the home". The pre-edit quotation is both accurate and consistent with the context. I propose to restore the quotation. The new paraphrase probably needs a source, although one probably can be found in some book or other. I'll wait a week for any response. Nick Levinson ( talk) 21:07, 14 September 2013 (UTC) (Clarified: 21:13, 14 September 2013 (UTC))
Hi,
This concerns a sentence in the first para of the "Superiority" section, which includes the following: / ... to place "the 'feminine'./ (/ref. Davis/)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Feminism and equality article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Feminism. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Feminism at the Reference desk. |
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 January 2022 and 13 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Andreamorar, Drea08 ( article contribs). Peer reviewers: Obeyjassi.
If the number of feminist women who seek superiority over men is anywhere near equal to (or more than) the number who seek equality with men, please source it. I imagine it's possible in nations that are especially repressive of feminists, as that might result in reformers being repressed but radicals remaining (because reformers would seek to negotiate and then they'd be co-opted or arrested while radicals would likely build their base, theorize, or stay low), but in that case I wonder whether much would be published by them and whether in English. Where repression is very onerous, radicals probably support other nonfeminist radicals and feminist moderates, and that too will likely mean less publication of analyses we can cite as sources. In the U.S., among feminists, they are a minority, composed of a few notable feminists but only one small and short-lived organization. They're probably a minority in every nation. Since "some" could reasonably mean anywhere from a quarter to three quarters, and maybe anywhere from a tenth to nine tenths, "a minority" is probably more accurate.
I think the style guideline used to specify that sourcing was to go into the body of the article, the lead summarizing the body without references. If that's how it used to be, it isn't that way anymore, so I've now put citations into the lead and kept them in the body as well.
More sourcing and content can be added anytime.
Thanks for bringing this up. Nick Levinson ( talk) 18:51, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Feminism seems to define 'equal' rights being the inherent aim. This does much the same but further text is telling:
If "most", rather than all, feminists support equality, that would mean that some feminists do not support equality. If it is possible for a feminist to not support equality, this would mean that 'equal rights' is not an inherent aspect of feminism. We should have an article about the comparative issues of equality and feminism, but based on this, not treat equality as an inherent aspect of it's aims. Ranze ( talk) 10:08, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
If we take the stance that the descriptions of movements should come from proponents and not supporters, how would that lead to the definition of things like nazism? We should look at what efforts are actually doing and if those actions conform to egalitarian concepts or to female support concepts. Which predominates? Has 'equality' as a stated goal actually limited feminism-related actions or led them to put forth similar efforts towards males?
What sources should we consider authoritative here? Can we give examples of evidence-based sources and not simply polite definitions? Feminism does not exclude those feminists who promote non-egalitarian ideas. See for example Radical_feminism#Theory_and_ideology which says "Some radical feminists called for women to govern women and men"
Calling for an exclusive gender to rule the other is not an example of egalitarianism. This is classed under feminism, so feminism can't be about egalitarianism if it includes that. If we take the stance that egalitarianism is an inseparable aspect, we can not call radicals who promote exclusive female rulership as 'feminists'. Yet they are called this, and that makes sense, because non-egalitarianism doesn't exclude a concept or person from feminism. Ranze ( talk) 05:47, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
A recent edit deleted a source citation. The source says, partly about and partly from Dworkin, "What Andrea Dworkin wants ... is this: she wants women to have their own country.... 'The last chapter [of Scapegoat] - that's my favourite chapter,' she said, regarding the section of her book proposing a nation state for women .... [W]e began to talk about this women's country.... I [Dworkin] repudiate all nationalism except my own and reject the dominance of all men except those I love.... I have become certain of one thing: that women cannot be free of male dominance without challenging the men of one's own ethnic group and destroying their authority. This is a willed betrayal, as any assault on male dominance must be." That is not limited to women being responsible for themselves. It is about women governing a country. And since she talks (in the same source) also about a right of women to execute men who are rapists, she is not talking about excluding men so as to form a women-only nation. The source (with another) supports what is in the article: "a minority of feminists have argued for superiority of women over men as a form of government." If a close rephrasing would help, please do it or indicate. Otherwise, I propose to restore the citation. I'll wait a week for any response.
I did not and do not try to summarize her position with respect to Jews.
Nick Levinson ( talk) 21:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
A recent edit replaced a quotation with a statement on the ground of "actually reflect[ing]" the source. The source's first sentence appears to contradict the new paraphrase; if it does not, that's because of other content on another page(s), for which a page citation would probably be necessary. Radical feminism generally posits the opposite of the new paraphrase or combines both views. The prior quotation was from a critique of "formal equality with men" under liberal feminism typified by the pro-mainstreaming NOW position and the critique said that "the fundamental problem ... [was] women's subordination within the home". The pre-edit quotation is both accurate and consistent with the context. I propose to restore the quotation. The new paraphrase probably needs a source, although one probably can be found in some book or other. I'll wait a week for any response. Nick Levinson ( talk) 21:07, 14 September 2013 (UTC) (Clarified: 21:13, 14 September 2013 (UTC))
Hi,
This concerns a sentence in the first para of the "Superiority" section, which includes the following: / ... to place "the 'feminine'./ (/ref. Davis/)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Feminism and equality. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 19:36, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
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